Octavia and Ivara Trivialize the Game

[Music4Therapy]

I'm watching these "record run" kuva survivals going down, watching people constantly die and watching all the teamwork involved and just thinking to myself "some dude with a bag of doritos and a whole lot of mountain dew can do this solo until the servers crash with Octavia or Ivara"

There are plenty of vids on youtube of players going excessive amounts of time in survival/defense/etc... with said frames. The ability to be completely invisible and not have enemies interact with you whilst dealing absurd amounts of damage through the use of CL or Mallet on top of being able to draw fire away from objectives is absurd. Ignoring the fact that stealth causes enemies to ignore their comrades being hit and/or dying next to them, its insane frames given the power to do so also have such amazing kits.

Are we going to continue to ignore just how trivial certain frames, particularly these two, make this game?

I enjoy Warframe, but why take any accomplishments seriously when there are frames in the game capable of doing said things with ease alone?

EDIT: INB4 omg ur trippin theyre balanced y u so salty bruh like wow y u no let me have fun

14hr Solo Survival Ivara, no primary weapon equipped cuz who needs a primary:

565 Wave Defense with Ivara, same dude as above

All new players, get yourself an Ivara and practice with her. Save the weapon weapon slots, save the frame slots. All you need is Ivara, a Dagger, and a way to pop a bubble.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

Given the right scenario, the right frame, the right build, the right weapon, and the right riven everything in this game is made stupid easy. It's kind of the point of most of the game, to work to getting the ability to do those things. And then moving on to working on the next nuking build.

[Music4Therapy]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Given the right scenario, the right frame, the right build, the right weapon, and the right riven everything in this game is made stupid easy. It's kind of the point of most of the game, to work to getting the ability to do those things. And then moving on to working on the next nuking build.

Yeah, go 8 hours in a survival solo with any frame without stealth. What. Those 2 frames are an entire squad wrapped into 1 frame.

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

6 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Yeah, go 8 hours in a survival solo with any frame without stealth. What. Those 2 frames are an entire squad wrapped into 1 frame.

What would be the point of doing that? Other than to waste 8 hours of your life doing things you could have done better things...like I don't know....touching a mammarian mass?

Yeah you could take a frame we have now and do what you say there....but who cares if you CAN do it....if anything it is impressive we CAN do it....but WHY would we do it and WHY do you care that we can?

Edited April 15, 2018 by (PS4)LubzinNJ

[p3z1]

You missed invis Loki and Ash.

On a more serious note, they can do well in such missions solo, but what about other missions? Pretty sure Ivara can't do a Hijack solo. Octavia's invisibility and extra stats require timing with her metronome (her 3rd right?). Loki can't do hijack as well. Ash can't defend things, only kill.

If you think I'm defending these frames on kuva survivials, no, I use shield of shadows + despoil.

[NightBlitz]

see, it doent rly matter, cus theres no point in going that long in a mission besides being able to say that you did that. and they dont seem to want to encourage those long runs, they arent good for your health

[Olianu]

While My coordination with the Opera buff is good, I have to admit it's a lot harder for me to get the invisible buff going for Octavia.  In all of my time playing and using her, I've only gotten it to go off three times successfully, both ally and self alike even with the "ear cancer" songs.  Mallet is only as strong as the damage it takes as it's reflected back to the enemy and is multiplied by Amp, and I do agree it scales ridiculously.  There's no real counter point I have to that part of the argument outside of it's her only option for damage period.

This Ivara thing I have not seen done personally because I usually have the bad luck of running into toxin procs left and right when running as Ivara in survivals, and you have to be very mindful of energy leeches/parasitics when you are in prowl, which eximus love to come out the longer and longer you stay in missions.  While prowl is one of the stronger sneaking abilities in the game (arguably the strongest,) it's reliance on energy can be its major crutch you have to be constantly wary of.

I'm not saying you sound salty, but it does seem you are trivializing their flaws and overstating their perks.  Why not complain about Nidus or Wukong who can literally defy death?

[IceColdHawk]

So? Trivialize what? The scaling content and rewarding content we don't have and won't ever get?

[BLI7Z]

hace 3 minutos, NightBlitz dijo:

see, it doent rly matter, cus theres no point in going that long in a mission besides being able to say that you did that. and they dont seem to want to encourage those long runs, they arent good for your health

Long runs are actually good for my health. They help in training my arm muscles non-stop and my tendons get really strong. 

[kyori]

Octavia and Ivara? lol old news. outside of meta topics, there are other frames n weapons who also trivialized the game

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Olianu said:

Why not complain about Nidus or Wukong who can literally defy death?

Neither have infinitely scaling damage. Well, I guess Wukong technically does, but eventually it'll take hours to increase the combo meter, so it's not really viable.

They'll both cap eventually, whilst Covert Lethality and Mallet scale forever.

Octavia is just a pathetically designed frame imo, capable of whatever the hell she wants.

Defending an objective? Lemme just CC everything into shooting my mallet.

Need DPS? Lemme just throw my mallet and let the enemies kill themselves with their infinitely scaling damage.

Need to not get shot? Lemme just make myself permanently invisible whilst enemies shoot my mallet and kill themselves.

The only thing Octavia isn't capable of is interactive gameplay. #savageburn.

 

[Hayabusa97]

That reminds, I wonder how that Survival run is doing

[RealPandemonium]

Invisibility has always been stupid in Warframe.  Octavia just happens to be the best at it, and Ivara makes LS pop out for free, so ya.

33 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Given the right scenario, the right frame, the right build, the right weapon, and the right riven everything in this game is made stupid easy. It's kind of the point of most of the game, to work to getting the ability to do those things. And then moving on to working on the next nuking build.

Grinding for a while just to get the point where there is no game anymore, is probably the worst part of Warframe.  It's far from the point of the game; it's a mistake that the developers indulge you to fall into.

Edited April 15, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

2 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Invisibility has always been stupid in Warframe.  Octavia just happens to be the best at it, and Ivara makes LS pop out for free, so ya.

Grinding for a while just to get the point where there is no game anymore, is probably the worst part of Warframe.  It's far from the point of the game; it's a mistake that the developers indulge you to fall into.

Upvote for you. Efficiency to completing the mission you embark on in this game is my greatest desire nowadays and conversely my interest in playing the game goes down as I get more efficient.

[Bobtm]

The way in which Ivara is op doesn't invalidate the enjoyment of other players in a multiplayer setting however.  Octavia's mallet also usually doesn't step on others' toes too much, so it too isn't really at the forefront things that need fixing.

Anyways, the entire game's overarching balance is completely shot and any of us who've been around for a while know it.  Shoot this type of op nonsense isn't even new.  Loki was the first frame to really drive home the notion of being more or less unstoppable.  As has been noted, Invisibility is the most broken of all our power options currently.  Now it's not even relegated to these few frames.  Though using the Trickery + Naramon's dash method is a bit RNG reliant on others.

Also Ivara specifically (while she is insanely powerful) relies directly upon the existence of CL in order to continue infinitely winning vs all scaling forever.  Without that puzzle piece she'll stop being able to actually net kills, eventually.

[Misgenesis]

1 hour ago, Music4Therapy said:

The ability to be completely invisible and not have enemies interact with you whilst dealing absurd amounts of damage

Which is why scaling rewards will never work.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

theory is that Grineer Kavat ladies can detect cloaked players, but it never works.

 

each faction needs units that can detect and immediately attack invisible players, as well as units that can detect and relay that detection to their allies.

 

such enemies need to be more late game, like Nox only appear on wave 10+ in hydron.

[(XBOX)Artakka]

You could say the same thing about nidus or inaros. You'd really have to try hard to die with either of them at high level survivals. Assuming of course you play them right lol. 

[Music4Therapy]

43 minutes ago, (XB1)Young Boy HT said:

You could say the same thing about nidus or inaros. You'd really have to try hard to die with either of them at high level survivals. Assuming of course you play them right lol. 

Show me 1 solo 8hr video with Inaros or Nidus in ANY mission.

All these stupidly long missions are being done with stealth frames, and Octavia/Ivara are far and away the biggest offenders.

Are many things in this game "game breaking" and capable of trivializing any and all the intended content? Yeah. But these 2 frames are on a whole other level. We can either put a bandaid on the issue by reworking those 2 frames or we can nerf Stealth.

Not getting hit at all > Getting hit

Infinite Offensive Scaling > Damage multipliers/Flat damage.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, Misgenesis said:

Which is why scaling rewards will never work.

All "scaling rewards" has ever done is give the lunatic fringe of Warframe a leg to stand on when shilling for gameplay removal.  It's a very small potion of the game that has had toxic effects on the game as a whole.  I watched it happen for 5 years. :(

[Misgenesis]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

All "scaling rewards" has ever done is give the lunatic fringe of Warframe a leg to stand on when shilling for gameplay removal.  It's a very small potion of the game that has had toxic effects on the game as a whole.  I watched it happen for 5 years. :(

But i want my candy, and i want it NOW.

Its funny though, the same people advocating for this cycle of power often complain about issues that come from that increased power.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Misgenesis

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Seems like a vein attempt to dig at some frames you have personal issues with.  Ivara and octavia are amazing at some missions.  and terrible at others.  (hijack comes to mind) so from that point alone they don't "trivialize the game" when they can't do that in all modes of play.

Second what is there to trivialize?  There are no scaling rewards.  Extended endless runs are purely for fun/bragging rights.  And if you're going to sully someone's extended endless record over the arsenal they took into the mission then you're not a reasonable individual.

Finally you seem to fall into the trap of "invisibility=invincibility."  Enemies don't have to know where you are exactly to hurt you.  AOE damage is a thing.  Auras still effect you.  And you're subject to human error.  Meaning you could accidentally become visible next to a bombard.  Or not OHK a heavy gunner but you're close enough for it to proc it's automatic slam on the ground.  etc.  Further more playing with allies means the situation becomes far less in your control.

The game has plenty of stupid powerful things in it.  None of it is brain dead though.  Majority of it requires a bit of player interaction.  Which was DE's whole goal to begin with.  Increase player interaction to earn the power.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Neither have infinitely scaling damage. Well, I guess Wukong technically does, but eventually it'll take hours to increase the combo meter, so it's not really viable.

They'll both cap eventually, whilst Covert Lethality and Mallet scale forever.

Octavia is just a pathetically designed frame imo, capable of whatever the hell she wants.

Defending an objective? Lemme just CC everything into shooting my mallet.

Need DPS? Lemme just throw my mallet and let the enemies kill themselves with their infinitely scaling damage.

Need to not get shot? Lemme just make myself permanently invisible whilst enemies shoot my mallet and kill themselves.

The only thing Octavia isn't capable of is interactive gameplay. #savageburn.

 

Yeah but you don't need infinite damage.  Wukong cheeses the game by basically never dying.  We've gotten to the point with modding that he could kill level 150 bombards with several weapons.  And you pointing out (or trying to point out) that his never dying isn't good enough for an endless run only proves the point that these frames are not as bad as OP makes them sound.  Because that also stands true with ivara and octavia.  both are awful with hijack.  Attacking these frames because they're good at a specific thing but letting wukong pass because the specific thing he's good at isn't the one game mode being discussed is just a double standard.

Also:

1) covert lethality doesn't scale.  For that matter CC doesn't either.  Scaling refers to something getting better as time goes on.  CC performs the same regardless of difficulty.  it doesn't CC better as the enemies get stronger.  Same with covert.  It doesn't get better.  it's always an instant kill.  Consistency is a better word.  Or reliability.  Mallet does scale because it's damage gets better as the enemies get stronger.

2) Technically speaking wukong can spam cloud walk with a dagger.  since exiting cloud walker opens enemies to finishers.

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

2) Technically speaking wukong can spam cloud walk with a dagger.  since exiting cloud walker opens enemies to finishers.

Costs way too much time in order to be effective in any case. Furthermore, Stinging Thorn opens enemies to finishers by default in one combo.

While i agree that wukong is super cheap since he cannot die unless you forget to recast defy every 5 minutes, nerfing defy would only put him into the very trash tier. He would need a full-on rework.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yeah but you don't need infinite damage.  Wukong cheeses the game by basically never dying.  We've gotten to the point with modding that he could kill level 150 bombards with several weapons.  And you pointing out (or trying to point out) that his never dying isn't good enough for an endless run only proves the point that these frames are not as bad as OP makes them sound.  Because that also stands true with ivara and octavia.  both are awful with hijack.  Attacking these frames because they're good at a specific thing but letting wukong pass because the specific thing he's good at isn't the one game mode being discussed is just a double standard.

Also:

1) covert lethality doesn't scale.  For that matter CC doesn't either.  Scaling refers to something getting better as time goes on.  CC performs the same regardless of difficulty.  it doesn't CC better as the enemies get stronger.  Same with covert.  It doesn't get better.  it's always an instant kill.  Consistency is a better word.  Or reliability.  Mallet does scale because it's damage gets better as the enemies get stronger.

2) Technically speaking wukong can spam cloud walk with a dagger.  since exiting cloud walker opens enemies to finishers.

You don't need anything in this game? 

I wasn't arguing that Wukong doesn't cheese the game, but that Octavia in particular cheeses it more and by a far greater magnitude. Who cares if a frame can't die no matter how much it's shot, Octavia cannot be shot. Who cares if Wukong can kill level 150 enemies, Octavia can kill level 9,999 enemies. I'm not saying Wukong isn't overpowered in some aspects, just that Octavia is overpowered in virtually all aspects.

And furthermore, she requires absolutely no input from the player aside from occasional recasts and crouching.

You've misinterpreted my argument entirely.