I dont know what is going on with DE recently.

[ForsakenEcho]

so, giving out 4 year anniversary stuff all at once at year 5, fine. few game do that on purpose but fine. 

then braton and lato vandals. I mean. they are closed beta exclusives. I do not have them, and I do not want them. because they are special, because they mean a lot. they are symbols of those players' commitment to the game. if I see one out there in a mission, I will add him/her as friend and memorize some good old times this game had. but meh they are out. soon some rank 5 kiddo swaying them like some toy guns but. anyways.

then this:

1. so 2 months. I do not know what you guys were doing but, there are plenty things you could spend some time taking care of:

tridolons bugs omg. Sooo long and no fix, this is your end game man, your end game. means this is tooo important to f up with. but still. no clue for those teleport bugs. no fixes. and tridolons becomes so boring after such a long time. but again, you got time to make a broken mech for players to be able to take off shards from shrine. which bugged the * out of so many tridolon hunts we had and of course no fix for the bugs. not mentioning this new "mech" you introduced for the players does not help them in tridolon hunting but only slowing them down in some ridiculous ways and surely, does not fix the teleporting trolling tridolons.

2. you try to limit the players, you nerfed cats so we can slow down a bit on tridolon hunts, but before you nerf the players I saw some group doing 4 rounds a night, then, after you nerfed cats, im doing 5 rounds a night. so it doesnt work. however you could buff the bosses together with the rewards and fix some bugs but you didnt. you went nerf cats.

3. then we waited for 2 months, a kuva sur came out then we think the reward is not as rewarding as it should be over the time in mission and increment of the power of the mobs, since this is a "endless" mission with no reason to go "endless" at all. this is an issue all the other endless missions have in this game. there just isnt enough reason to go beyond rotation C. 

unless

you scale up the rewards, with the endless missions you currently have. like so many people asked for the kuva scaling in almost every hotfix posts you have. but no response. nah.

and... still, if you hit that red cloud which uses a staircase to approach the kuva harness machine in kuva flood mission with pris-2 or pris-3, it bugs it there freezing and you could use that time to watch your kavat 120s buff gone off. bugs again.

4. then 2 months, man 2 months, I am waiting and waiting and watching my friends went afk one by one cuz they say this game is a joke with so many bugs and no fixes and disconnections and game breaking mission failing bugs roaring around and they say they give up (just today another friend I got just gave me his 10+ riven cards because he is another player who went afk) people ask me why you still playing this game, with so many bugs and I say because you do not know how long I have been staying with this game and see it grow up from ground and how much I am excited to see more and more people talking about this game over youtube and other networks. from "what the hell you playing?" to "oh you play warframe! not bad."

then the update hits me and im like "ima go continue afk for a while, after some hot fixes I will be back then" and I realized maybe its not the same game I played years ago.

so, after a few hot fixes, I got online, went into the new mission type called sanctuary hunts (or whatever its called im not using an english version), it crashed 9 out of 10 games I had. Me and the few friends I got left in the game are frustrated because we lost so many rewards and it just has too many bugs and reward-less because those bugs ate them. I wanted to report those bugs but, there'r just too many of them and ... so I went here instead of the bug reporting section.

5. then I tried to play the new game type more. then I kinda get it just some old maps binding together and.... farm. no new missions, nothing. well. I mean. real. for real. srsly.

I could, I could, do without this new game type. I can continue waiting, for months, even years, for you guys to fix those bugs already existing in this game, and then, give out some updates worth paying attention for, new quests new frames and stuff. But not some content which was assembled by some pre-existing content and some game-mode like: "just go in and kill and do that 1000000 times". you could bring this kind of contents out but:

Please, not so many bugs, new bugs, new game breaking bugs, please sometimes I wonder if you guys play your own game at all but I know you guys do and then I went into a "????" state.

Then you have to spend more time and money fix those bugs you just created with this not-so-interesting and not-so-new game mode. 

please, not after waited soooo long and then this broken game mode.

But I can play that without those bugs but they do exist there.

Please just take your time, just take your time in developing new stuff. take your time to test it and hold it back a while more, im fine with it. it has been a while without any new major updates and im fine with it. I could do moar tridolon hunts if you fixed those bugs players asked you to fix under each one of your hot-fix post. I can wait longer and im fine.

6. from the PoE and cetus maps, I can see, there are lots of, lots of, lots of discarded contents lots of abandoned stuff for the earth open world game mode, so the whole PoE-Cetus game play feels like something is missing and its a castrated version of the bold and magnificent PoE-Cetus plan you guys had in there (tell me its not my illusion) once, and I do not know, and cannot imagine what you guys went through so you guys finally abandoned such an ambiguous but potential plan (tell me there was one). you know what that feels like? Project Titan -> Overwatch. And I do not like that feeling.

but you could replenish its contents back, fix those bugs in there, and deliver a growing PoE-Cetus experience like you always did for this game before, over the next 7 months you had right there after PoE release, but you didnt, and you went to do Venus plains. what? 

7. and then I thought you went to do Venus plains then I got this sanctuary thingy here. what?

?????????????????????

You guys must be super busy with something, so that your game experience went down for a while. so that you cannot afford to fix those bugs for a while, so that you do not have time to scale up the rewards of endless missions so that people will play "endless" missions over the rotation C.

So Im waiting. Tell me Im worrying about nothing and this game is as good as it always has been so I can tell my friends to come back to the game and play like we once did, so I can tell them the game become so fun that you would be an idiot if you dont play it. (thats what I told my friends about this game before)

 

huh DE probably wont even read this why am I spending so much time writing this crap anyways.

 

[GinKenshin]

all of these issues don't matter, you know what matters? Venus open world and the Sacrifice quest

 

 

Spoiler

yes, this is sarcasm

 

now after the final roadblock has been removed, which is khora and all that came with her, there's nothing stopping them from going full-time on these 2, since before they were like 90% devoted to them....which is obviously not enough (yes, more sarcasm) 

 

[Rawbeard]

I blame PoE. since then they have really let themselfs go.

[xmegarockx]

well i have brato parts and lato parts now time to get the rest :D

[---RV---Maniac]

13 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

all of these issues don't matter, you know what matters? Venus open world and the Sacrifice quest

Even those things are meh for me at this point. Im sick of poe and it's eidolon buggy state. Sacrifice quest won't keep players into the game however it is long overdue that we get our lotus back. 

If Venus open world comes out in the buggy state that poe did or even onslaught, that might be the breaking point for alot of people.

I just hope once Venus open world and sacrifice is done, they can focus on things to keep players invested in the game. Like the Kinpin system or dark sectors to give clans a reason to actually exist and give players something to play for.

[Nitro747]

Let's not forget how Khora and The Sacrifice should have been shipped at latest in late January, how the Hemocyte boss is basically a smaller repainted version of Lephantis, how they scrapped Trials because "it was taking too much effort keeping them alive" while conclave is still alive and gets fixes much more often than trials and how the "new" Eidolons are basically bigger versions of good'ol Teralyst but with different colors as well. Kuva survival is a joke both in concept and reward. The only real worthy things of the past four months was the weapons rework (which should have been done years ago) and the warframes reworks, but thats basically just it.

I think the biggest slap in the community face's was how they only delivered the Onslaught in this update. No Khora quest. Nothing they have been teasing for months in devstreams too. I was expecting them to ship a mega update at least for compensation but how I was wrong. Then every time you watch the devstreams you see the devs looking like they haven't slept for days and the only thing I wonder is what the heck is going on?

[BlackCoMerc]

It's called Minimum Viable Product design. It is very obviously the underpinning philosophy of DE at this point.

[DrBorris]

*Shrug* They seem like the same DE I have been watching for the past four years with the exception of not being prone to drop an update at two in the morning.

1. You are kidding, right? Warframe has always been known for its bugs. This is no excuse obviously but I would be confident saying that DE is better about bugs, the problem is that Warframe is in more of a limelight than it was before. You are a founder, you were here for Update 15.
2. Uh huh... no. Again, you are a founder, you know that we are much, much, much more powerful as players than we used to be. Yeah, cats were nerfed but DE clearly made an expectation that Operators could not be buffed like Warframes so I am not sure why anyone was surprised. And this is also such a small, insignificant thing. And this "you nerf cats but don't fix bugs". Screw off, that's not how development works. Are you telling me DE should jeopardize their vision for something to appease players like that? Fixing cats (as that is what it was in their eyes) was a change that they were going to make either way. There is no excuse for bugs but requesting exploits because of them is so much worse.
3. Kuva Survival is not "useless," and I am one of the louder ones that was whining about its rewards. DE has a status quo of not rewarding endurance. Would I love to see that change? Yeah, but it was also half expected. Kuva Survival is a serviceable mode. And on the topic of "serviceable" modes, are these anything new? We have nineteen mission types, how many of those would you say are perfectly executed? DE has always been bad about giving us a reason to play new stuff outside events.
4. -more complaints about bugs-
5. Hey now, you were doing pretty good avoiding saying things like "it can't be that hard." If you really think Onslaught is "just" a patchwork of old content, you are very mistaken. The "content" for any new mode is the easy part. Making Interception uses the same AI and same mechanics as the rest of the game. Onslaught, despite using the same models and AI, comes with a lot of backend work that is the most prone to breaking. DE knows how to make their AI work, they know how to make a tile-set, they know how to load you into a mission. Onslaught is a lot of new mechanics, the stuff that breaks. (For reference, see Update 15 again)
6. Mhmm.... discarded content. Yeah, like Archwing, Defection, the Void, Assassins, Invasions, etcetera? We have been over this, DE "discarding" new content is nothing new. If you really want to look at something that had its original concept discarded in favor of getting it out, Specters of the Rail takes that cake.
7. Yeah, because the entire studio is able to work on the same thing. First, thank god for Onslaught. It needs a lot of fixing but it is a great mode (and fudge off those who don't think it is good because it does not fit your own personal meta, a lot of people do like it). We heard in past devstreams that it was a smaller team working on "Dark Sector 2.0", the whole studio was not in on this. DE just can't win. If they focus on Venus then people will complain about not enough content in the meantime, if they focus on sporadic content they will complain about them not focusing on Venus.

 

All in all I think this is less of DE changing and more of you just getting tired of habits DE has had since the beginning (which is fair). So, in my eyes, you are worrying about nothing. You are just a veteran who has been here so long that DE's bad habits have worn on you more and more as the years past by (as many of us are). DE is the same DE, they just have a bit better work ethic (not killing themselves to get an update out at two in the morning).

 

56 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

It's called Minimum Viable Product design. It is very obviously the underpinning philosophy of DE at this point.

If by "at this point" you mean "always has been", I agree.

[DrBorris]

-Darn you double post-

Edited April 23, 2018 by DrBorris

[Doc-Orange]

I played Onslaught a lot in the last days and yes, I lost loot because of bugs. But this new gamemode is a great addition to the game. If you don't want to have bugs - wait 2 weeks for fixing. 2 weeks waiting is a lot better than other games which brings new content only very few times a year-

So my personal point: Go ahead DE!

[Xaxma]

23 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

DE is the same DE, they just have a bit better work ethic (not killing themselves to get an update out at two in the morning).

Well said. Your points were very reasonable and your patience is amiable. I feel exactly like this.

Too many people have unrealistic expectations and think all there is behind a game and its mechanics is immediately what you can see when there's so much more beneath the surface to make it come together. DE certainly has a few poor habits but what keeps me around is precisely what you said, they just have better work ethic than most other developers. Even if they screw up bad, they will still jump on to apply hotfix after hotfix, nonstop as needed until things stabilize, and you can't say that for a lot of other teams. 

They're clearly very passionate; you may call it incompetence, but I call it devoutness towards making things right even if they're not the oldest or best developer team out there, and I think that says a lot in of itself. They've gone very far as they have over the years doing honest and transparent work.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Xaxma

[ForsakenEcho]

On 24/04/2018 at 1:21 AM, DrBorris said:

*Shrug* They seem like the same DE I have been watching for the past four years with the exception of not being prone to drop an update at two in the morning.

1. You are kidding, right? Warframe has always been known for its bugs. This is no excuse obviously but I would be confident saying that DE is better about bugs, the problem is that Warframe is in more of a limelight than it was before. You are a founder, you were here for Update 15.
2. Uh huh... no. Again, you are a founder, you know that we are much, much, much more powerful as players than we used to be. Yeah, cats were nerfed but DE clearly made an expectation that Operators could not be buffed like Warframes so I am not sure why anyone was surprised. And this is also such a small, insignificant thing. And this "you nerf cats but don't fix bugs". Screw off, that's not how development works. Are you telling me DE should jeopardize their vision for something to appease players like that? Fixing cats (as that is what it was in their eyes) was a change that they were going to make either way. There is no excuse for bugs but requesting exploits because of them is so much worse.
3. Kuva Survival is not "useless," and I am one of the louder ones that was whining about its rewards. DE has a status quo of not rewarding endurance. Would I love to see that change? Yeah, but it was also half expected. Kuva Survival is a serviceable mode. And on the topic of "serviceable" modes, are these anything new? We have nineteen mission types, how many of those would you say are perfectly executed? DE has always been bad about giving us a reason to play new stuff outside events.
4. -more complaints about bugs-
5. Hey now, you were doing pretty good avoiding saying things like "it can't be that hard." If you really think Onslaught is "just" a patchwork of old content, you are very mistaken. The "content" for any new mode is the easy part. Making Interception uses the same AI and same mechanics as the rest of the game. Onslaught, despite using the same models and AI, comes with a lot of backend work that is the most prone to breaking. DE knows how to make their AI work, they know how to make a tile-set, they know how to load you into a mission. Onslaught is a lot of new mechanics, the stuff that breaks. (For reference, see Update 15 again)
6. Mhmm.... discarded content. Yeah, like Archwing, Defection, the Void, Assassins, Invasions, etcetera? We have been over this, DE "discarding" new content is nothing new. If you really want to look at something that had its original concept discarded in favor of getting it out, Specters of the Rail takes that cake.
7. Yeah, because the entire studio is able to work on the same thing. First, thank god for Onslaught. It needs a lot of fixing but it is a great mode (and fudge off those who don't think it is good because it does not fit your own personal meta, a lot of people do like it). We heard in past devstreams that it was a smaller team working on "Dark Sector 2.0", the whole studio was not in on this. DE just can't win. If they focus on Venus then people will complain about not enough content in the meantime, if they focus on sporadic content they will complain about them not focusing on Venus.

 

All in all I think this is less of DE changing and more of you just getting tired of habits DE has had since the beginning (which is fair). So, in my eyes, you are worrying about nothing. You are just a veteran who has been here so long that DE's bad habits have worn on you more and more as the years past by (as many of us are). DE is the same DE, they just have a bit better work ethic (not killing themselves to get an update out at two in the morning).

 

If by "at this point" you mean "always has been", I agree.

so where they spending all their time and efforts to? the game does feel different comparing to what I have know.

[ForsakenEcho]

On 24/04/2018 at 1:44 AM, Xaxma said:

Well said. Your points were very reasonable and your patience is amiable. I feel exactly like this.

Too many people have unrealistic expectations and think all there is behind a game and its mechanics is immediately what you can see when there's so much more beneath the surface to make it come together. DE certainly has a few poor habits but what keeps me around is precisely what you said, they just have better work ethic than most other developers. Even if they screw up bad, they will still jump on to apply hotfix after hotfix, nonstop as needed until things stabilize, and you can't say that for a lot of other teams. 

They're clearly very passionate; you may call it incompetence, but I call it devoutness towards making things right even if they're not the oldest or best developer team out there, and I think that says a lot in of itself. They've gone very far as they have over the years doing honest and transparent work.

I am a developer myself. And if I release something broken like this no matter what the time is over the day, I got my butt kicked. passionate is good, but for the players, especially for a game with an age over 5 years, game quality is much more important, and so is for the market. I do not use any excuses for any bugs I carried over the system when it went into production. For each release our team will do so many tests and simulations just trying to reduce the chance a bug went alive in the prod environment. I know bugs sometimes are prod-env only but - Whats wrong is wrong, why you are trying to sound like a nice person here? It wont help DE making warframe better. They need to understand, they should spend more time polishing their existing game content, instead of releasing something new and unstable with so many bugs so they have to spend even more time fix those bugs over the weekend or just abandon it later.

Working overtime or working over the weekends is not something to be proud of, because that only means you did not do enough planning and too much $h!t happened.

[polarity]

Are you a game developer though?  And if you are, is it in a large studio?  From what you've said I get the impression it's a definite no.  You don't seem to have any understanding of how game development works, which is very different from any other kind of software production, both in terms of the kind of people doing it, and the processes involved.

[--LA--Vengeance]

One of things that turns me off from this game are 'exclusive items' that u mentioned but in opposite direction. Game is driving away new players because of this. Just because I didn't play wf back then doesn't mean I don't enjoy game right now and supporting it maybe even more than some players that has been 'around' for a longer time.
Normally if things are removed from the game, they should be removed for everyone not 'u get to keep this and in future players won't have it'. Events should repeat with rewards that everyone has, especially the ones that has impact on ur MR.

Regarding game dev (I'm not one, but I am working with multiple devs) as one U SHOULD KNOW that:
1. some bugs are not fixable
2. some are major pain to find where is the issue
3. fixing existing bugs often can trigger multiple new ones
4. it's a waste of time and money for the company to fix some of bugs that are not 'enjoyable' for player base, but still makes game playable

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Vengeance_A

[Xaxma]

4 hours ago, ForsakenEcho said:

I am a developer myself. And if I release something broken like this no matter what the time is over the day, I got my butt kicked. passionate is good, but for the players, especially for a game with an age over 5 years, game quality is much more important, and so is for the market. I do not use any excuses for any bugs I carried over the system when it went into production. For each release our team will do so many tests and simulations just trying to reduce the chance a bug went alive in the prod environment. I know bugs sometimes are prod-env only but - Whats wrong is wrong, why you are trying to sound like a nice person here? It wont help DE making warframe better. They need to understand, they should spend more time polishing their existing game content, instead of releasing something new and unstable with so many bugs so they have to spend even more time fix those bugs over the weekend or just abandon it later.

Working overtime or working over the weekends is not something to be proud of, because that only means you did not do enough planning and too much $h!t happened.

It's not an excuse, it's a demonstration of patience. I have faith they will come around to fixing what needs to be fixed in time and I don't think it's as productive to constantly badger them about it either and call them terrible things.

There's already a million threads about the sanctuary onslaught instability.. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of the issue; why do people need to stoop to personal attacks though? Is that necessary?

[ForsakenEcho]

16 hours ago, Xaxma said:

It's not an excuse, it's a demonstration of patience. I have faith they will come around to fixing what needs to be fixed in time and I don't think it's as productive to constantly badger them about it either and call them terrible things.

There's already a million threads about the sanctuary onslaught instability.. I'm pretty sure they are well aware of the issue; why do people need to stoop to personal attacks though? Is that necessary?

it is not a personal attack omg. after 5 years game quality is still like this this is necessary.

[ForsakenEcho]

20 hours ago, polarity said:

Are you a game developer though?  And if you are, is it in a large studio?  From what you've said I get the impression it's a definite no.  You don't seem to have any understanding of how game development works, which is very different from any other kind of software production, both in terms of the kind of people doing it, and the processes involved.

its does not matter if this is an game project or an business project, software quality regulations apply.

[polarity]

7 minutes ago, ForsakenEcho said:

its does not matter if this is an game project or an business project, software quality regulations apply.

Yes it does.

This is a piece of software intended for entertainment, not business.  It isn't going to be costing customers money, and putting their own businesses at risk, if it fails to operate to a certain standard, or fixes and updates get delayed.

On top of that, when you're talking about games, they are products that are sold for somewhere between an all-in cost of ~$60 (plus DLC + microtransactions if published by a big corporation that's trying to exploit their customers for every penny), and free.  It's not like application programming, where you can sell the program for hundreds or even thousands of dollars, or as is becoming more common, charge a subscription for software-as-a-service (like Adobe is doing).

The price you can charge for the product is lower, so the salaries you can pay the people making it are lower.  Money isn't anywhere near as good in games development as in other fields, so it's harder to get programmers of the same caliber as elsewhere, because most of them would rather work better hours for better pay.  Good programmers in gaming do it largely out of passion, and have usually been doing it since before they went to University, rather than only after.  A CS degree isn't going to be as much use in a field that might require you to code AI or 3D graphics, where the networking side of things is going to be far more performance based, and backend development will again, be paid a lot less than someone handling a database in another industry.

And then you have the simple fact that a game is not just software.  It is far more of a creative endeavor, and in a game studio the huge majority of staff will be artists and designers.  Simultaneously managing both creative and technical aspects of the same project is entirely different from making business software, which is going to be almost entirely technical.  The software development practices that apply to programmers simply do not work when applied to concept artists, texture artists, 3D character or terrain artists, and animators.

If you knew anything at all about game development, you'd know that overtime is the norm, deadlines are rarely met, and that the people doing it put so much passion and effort into it, that they regularly burn out a few years after starting.

 

[fartloud]

whoever is managing DE needs a smack. they clearly stated that for example banshee's quake is problematic. they changed it.... and its as good as before. heck its one of the best tools for sanctuary onslaught. there is no way they didnt see that coming during the testing.

every release seems to be rushed and halfassed and followed by tons of hotfixes.

many warframes need reworks (heck some frames need reworks AFTER the reworks because  reworks did nothing DE have actually said), but the most silly is khora. they had to apparently rework her a few times during development and they still release her... and she is broken and needs a rework.

 

it doesnt take a genius to see that something is off.

[Gravitus123]

Honestly it seems like theyve been dropping the ball constantly since PoE and ill be honest i dont have much desire to keep playing with the way things are going.The fanboy side of me keeps saying that they just have all their resources spent on making Venus and the Sacrifice so im gonna stick around until those come out if they end up being another disappointment im taking a year or 2 break from Warframe