Ember Needs a Buff

[General_Durandal]

I just soloed the level 20 Onslaught mission with Ember Prime.
I got to wave 5.

Yet more proof Ember is a weak garbage frame.

~~~~~~~~~~

On 4/26/2018 at 11:02 AM, RealPandemonium said:

I leave the balance of this game in your highly capable hands.

~~~~~~~~~~

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

The issue is not slash procs, given that there a few ways around that damage like rolls(what reduces the damage by a lot during the animation), operator mode or running arcane victory for a rather constant HP regeneration in combination with shotguns.

The problem is that you get literally hit once you get into line of sight as Host(what you are as well as solo player) and movement(rolls, bullet jumping, breaking line of sight in rapid order) does not feel to change that in any meaningful way. While the problem is certainly amplified by the higher spawn rates and the open maps onslaught takes place in, it is not a onslaught only issue and can be perceived in normal game play as well. It is a mixed issue of DE having aiming kind of bound to latency(where solo/host  means non latency), hit scan weapons have no projectile travel time(no matter how little that is, it makes a massive difference like if you look at high level corpus) as well as accuracy and damage scaling kind of create broken results at levels that are considered as low with how the game changed in regards of weapon and frame damage over the years.

The problem with to high accuracy against Hosts is not a new one, it was also around in U15, where DE raised the accuracy because enemy units could not hit you in archwing, was considered as fixed by DE halve a year before U17(with no noticeable effect for solo/host players) and actually really fixed in U17 with the rework to solo endless missions, what was considering how much goes wrong with weapon and frame balance in the game kind of perfectly tuned with only little tweaks to life support in survival later on(did not found it to bad before the changes, given the mission became limited by kill speed not how much EHP you can stack to not get one hit killed).

What you are looking for is most likely a weapons guide, not so much a Ember build, given that there is no much difference between high level Ember builds, it all comes down to duration being a dump stat, strength you main stat and choosing a efficiency that allows you a sufficient utilization of accelerant and other abilities to play with:

 

This is a Boar Prime, a status shotgun from back in the days where DE ignores to change the base status chance back to 40% again since 2015, in favour of a double damage buff(what was completely pointless on a gun that is mostly effective by removing a 98-99% armor defence from targets) and riven sales(costs about 40p in trade chat so not really a thing). As you can see the gun has 4140 heat damage, what after taking flash accelerant and crit into account becomes 8133 heat damage, what after accelerant equals 34565 heat damage in my build. So you have a armor ignore, 40k damage per shot(before taking arcane rage, madurai or companion buffs into account), full auto shotgun with a wide spread to hit, CC and kill a lot of stuff on your screen at the same time, thx to punch through. Keep in mind L100 armored heavy units only have like 50k actual health and fire gets 25% bonus damage to it.

The detron is not only incredible powerful on Mag, but also on Ember. The reason for this is that it combines a massive amount of dps(that was more then enught to beat the brakk beyond L100 solo when it still did 1.5 times more base damage then the detrons), with the ability to disable auras via radiation procs and having viral what doubles your fire damage.

Like Gilmaesh pointed out, Onslaught is incredible RNG heavy. Title set, enemy faction or just something as random as eximus spawn rate can make it a catwalk or impossible odds at the same time and runs are not really that comparable as skill, gear or proficiency check as you might think.

While Ember is a bit more of a thinker frame, given that weapon choice and modding differs greatly from the meta and what you would use on other frames, is kind of a gear dependent(comparable with a vanilla WoW warrior) and considerable more difficult to play at higher levels then frames with 95% damage reduction or that clear/CC hole maps by the press of a button the frame does not perform bad at high levels, where WoF at any point in the last few years was just glorified CC(keep in mind 21k damage per WoF hit after the dot CC) and not utilizing accelerant and weapons modded around it was like throwing 95% of the damage you can do right out of the window.

~~~~~~~~~~

Edited May 1, 2018 by General_Durandal

[YUNoJump]

I'm going to make people angry with this statement, but until DE just puts their foot down and deletes WoF entirely, Ember cannot be a good frame based on DE's "more involvement = more power" skill philosophy.

WoF by design requires no effort; it auto-targets enemies and all you have to do is occasionally turn it off and on, which is also the same for any other ability in the game. DE has tried time and time again to make Ember relevant to endgame while keeping WoF intact for the die hard fans, but they also try to limit its damage so that Ember can't wipe Sorties without even seeing the enemies. It's just plain impossible for WoF to exist while maintaining a pro-skill philosophy.

Yes, it would make a lot of people angry, but anyone who says that Ember is on equal footing with any other frame in the game is either projecting, or they have spent so much time playing her that they have a skewed idea of what "good" is. She's trash because her abilities' core aspects are flawed, not her numbers.

[Sziklamester]

24 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

I just soloed the level 20 Onslaught mission with Ember Prime.
I got to wave 5.

Yet more proof Ember is a weak garbage frame.

I am agree with you with this because her rework was basically nothing in term there is nothing changed and she still is a low level destroyer. She should be viable on higher levels too but I myself not playing her so often and my last time I touched her was after her rework 1-2 day. Since them not touched her but she certainly needs some changes.

[Szilvia]

Without remove her ultimate and add a different ability any rework attempt will cause the same. She needs also some statwise changes but that itself is not problem but she haven't any damage reducing ability.

[General_Durandal]

23 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I'm going to make people angry with this statement, but until DE just puts their foot down and deletes WoF entirely, Ember cannot be a good frame based on DE's "more involvement = more power" skill philosophy.

WoF by design requires no effort; it auto-targets enemies and all you have to do is occasionally turn it off and on, which is also the same for any other ability in the game. DE has tried time and time again to make Ember relevant to endgame while keeping WoF intact for the die hard fans, but they also try to limit its damage so that Ember can't wipe Sorties without even seeing the enemies. It's just plain impossible for WoF to exist while maintaining a pro-skill philosophy.

Yes, it would make a lot of people angry, but anyone who says that Ember is on equal footing with any other frame in the game is either projecting, or they have spent so much time playing her that they have a skewed idea of what "good" is. She's trash because her abilities' core aspects are flawed, not her numbers.

They could always just make the damage scale, so it's never so OP you wipe maps without seeing enemies.

EDIT
Though... Actually, now that I thought more about it, I think that would make her overall worse.
If her powers are scaled, then she will never be any good, even on low level.
Unless it scales differently for each level gap.

Like, it has minimum damage, making low level areas easier,
and extra scaled damage on-top of that so she can endgame.

Edited April 26, 2018 by General_Durandal

[seprent]

In my opinion she could use a rework like limbo got no matter what DE does someone somewhere is going to be mad (no offence meant by it) 

I've tried ember personally i found harrow more entertaining and he does no damage and all the other ember threads i've looked at only seem to be buff x nothing content wise or game-play wise just more damage sure i love simple stuff like shot guns 1:point at problem 2:click at problem 3:problem goes away repeat 2 until 3 happens

maybe she just needs a new kit i think she is due one don't mean to be rude to someone's main and or waifu (yes i've met those people) but you might either want to consider a new frame (i went from volt to harrow) maybe take a break for bit if you haven't already or uh you know thought i had a third idea but i spaced it might remember it later

she just seems dull to me i don't see the appeal if someone would like to explain it to me i'd be open to it

 

[Dwolfknight]

Shameless plug #70

 

[RealPandemonium]

I just soloed the level 20 Onslaught mission with Ember Prime.
I got to wave 5.

I leave the balance of this game in your highly capable hands.

Edited April 26, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[General_Durandal]

7 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I leave the balance of this game in your highly capable hands.

 

[Threa]

I long for the time to come again where they do another pass on groups of Warframes. I'm hopeful that they'll use data gathered from Onslaught to start these waves of reworks and adjustments to bring all the weaker frames up and able to compete with the rest. My fingers are crossed that we'll see this within months instead of a year from now. 

 

[(PSN)BossNotACapo]

19 hours ago, seprent said:

someone would like to explain it to me i'd be open to it

 

My Love of Ember is due to her being my 1st prime and 3rd frame overall. And I always found her aesthetically pleasing lol. And to be honest, I really haven’t played her since Harrow update. But it seems to be that WOF continues to be a problem. I’ve seen countless suggestions on fixes and total reworks on the ability that I’d love to have over this one. Especially that overheat ability that I never got to try 😂 

[07Slevin]

hey,

i realy dont understand your statement, why ember should be buffed.

1. In my opinion Onslaught is not made for doing it solo. Some Maps are just too big, so you get in trouble with every frame (perhaps not in wave 5, but not much later).

2. In wave 5 you near to enemy level 50. This is the level the old ember version rapitly lost her efficacy.

3. an overall reason: Balancing!  So so many players cry more "end game" content. with higher level enemies/ other sort of enenies.  But you also can scale the other way around. nerf the overpowered Frame and Weapons. Just see it as a step of this balancing ;)

[General_Durandal]

7 hours ago, Slevin_no1 said:

hey,

i realy dont understand your statement, why ember should be buffed.

1. In my opinion Onslaught is not made for doing it solo. Some Maps are just too big, so you get in trouble with every frame (perhaps not in wave 5, but not much later).

2. In wave 5 you near to enemy level 50. This is the level the old ember version rapitly lost her efficacy.

3. an overall reason: Balancing!  So so many players cry more "end game" content. with higher level enemies/ other sort of enenies.  But you also can scale the other way around. nerf the overpowered Frame and Weapons. Just see it as a step of this balancing ;)

Warframe isn't an official MMO, so everything should be solo-able.

In other mission types that start at level 20, enemies don't get to level 50 till wave 20.

So what you are saying, it in order to make a weak warframe better, is to make all other warframes weaker? lol

[Djego27]

Clearly soloing 5 waves in normal onslaught is impossible with Ember.

The thing what really is annoying is the enemy aim botting against Solo\Host players what makes frames like Ember kind of pointless atm. I still wait for a U17 style fix that let you again enjoy soloing without having to shoot through cover with punch trough and avoid LOS like a plague.

Btw Onslaught is more or less designed around frames that can roll over spawn table on the hole map instead of killing stuff that is just in your cross air, like Saryn. In the end it is just "cheesy focus farming, the game mode".

[General_Durandal]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Clearly soloing 5 waves in normal onslaught is impossible with Ember.

The thing what really is annoying is the enemy aim botting against Solo\Host players what makes frames like Ember kind of pointless atm. I still wait for a U17 style fix that let you again enjoy soloing without having to shoot through cover with punch trough and avoid LOS like a plague.

Btw Onslaught is more or less designed around frames that can roll over spawn table on the hole map instead of killing stuff that is just in your cross air, like Saryn. In the end it is just "cheesy focus farming, the game mode".

What's your Ember build?

[Gilmaesh]

Solo onslaught is not really a way to judge a frame. Depending on how many big maps / grineer maps you get, your score can vary a lot. I went up to 13 in solo normal with ember but it could have been way less. Still i think zone 8 on normal solo should be ok for most frames

Spoiler

 

You were just unlucky with the random tiles / grineer faction (_{or you're just bad with that frame}). 

As for ember i think she need better survivability, like an increase in armor to be on par with Saryn or maybe a % damage reduction with her ultimate (fire around her body melting projectiles etc etc) that would go up as her ultimate would lose range over time.

I'm not a big fan of her 1 and 3 but i don't know her enough to change them.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

The thing what really is annoying is the enemy aim botting against Solo\Host players what makes frames like Ember kind of pointless atm. I still wait for a U17 style fix that let you again enjoy soloing without having to shoot through cover with punch trough and avoid LOS like a plague.

Yeah grineers with slash proc are no jokes.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Gilmaesh

[Djego27]

Il y a 8 heures, Gilmaesh a dit :

Yeah grineers with slash proc are no jokes.

The issue is not slash procs, given that there a few ways around that damage like rolls(what reduces the damage by a lot during the animation), operator mode or running arcane victory for a rather constant HP regeneration in combination with shotguns.

The problem is that you get literally hit once you get into line of sight as Host(what you are as well as solo player) and movement(rolls, bullet jumping, breaking line of sight in rapid order) does not feel to change that in any meaningful way. While the problem is certainly amplified by the higher spawn rates and the open maps onslaught takes place in, it is not a onslaught only issue and can be perceived in normal game play as well. It is a mixed issue of DE having aiming kind of bound to latency(where solo/host  means non latency), hit scan weapons have no projectile travel time(no matter how little that is, it makes a massive difference like if you look at high level corpus) as well as accuracy and damage scaling kind of create broken results at levels that are considered as low with how the game changed in regards of weapon and frame damage over the years.

The problem with to high accuracy against Hosts is not a new one, it was also around in U15, where DE raised the accuracy because enemy units could not hit you in archwing, was considered as fixed by DE halve a year before U17(with no noticeable effect for solo/host players) and actually really fixed in U17 with the rework to solo endless missions, what was considering how much goes wrong with weapon and frame balance in the game kind of perfectly tuned with only little tweaks to life support in survival later on(did not found it to bad before the changes, given the mission became limited by kill speed not how much EHP you can stack to not get one hit killed).

Il y a 8 heures, General_Durandal a dit :

What's your Ember build?

What you are looking for is most likely a weapons guide, not so much a Ember build, given that there is no much difference between high level Ember builds, it all comes down to duration being a dump stat, strength you main stat and choosing a efficiency that allows you a sufficient utilization of accelerant and other abilities to play with:

 

This is a Boar Prime, a status shotgun from back in the days where DE ignores to change the base status chance back to 40% again since 2015, in favour of a double damage buff(what was completely pointless on a gun that is mostly effective by removing a 98-99% armor defence from targets) and riven sales(costs about 40p in trade chat so not really a thing). As you can see the gun has 4140 heat damage, what after taking flash accelerant and crit into account becomes 8133 heat damage, what after accelerant equals 34565 heat damage in my build. So you have a armor ignore, 40k damage per shot(before taking arcane rage, madurai or companion buffs into account), full auto shotgun with a wide spread to hit, CC and kill a lot of stuff on your screen at the same time, thx to punch through. Keep in mind L100 armored heavy units only have like 50k actual health and fire gets 25% bonus damage to it.

The detron is not only incredible powerful on Mag, but also on Ember. The reason for this is that it combines a massive amount of dps(that was more then enught to beat the brakk beyond L100 solo when it still did 1.5 times more base damage then the detrons), with the ability to disable auras via radiation procs and having viral what doubles your fire damage.

Like Gilmaesh pointed out, Onslaught is incredible RNG heavy. Title set, enemy faction or just something as random as eximus spawn rate can make it a catwalk or impossible odds at the same time and runs are not really that comparable as skill, gear or proficiency check as you might think.

While Ember is a bit more of a thinker frame, given that weapon choice and modding differs greatly from the meta and what you would use on other frames, is kind of a gear dependent(comparable with a vanilla WoW warrior) and considerable more difficult to play at higher levels then frames with 95% damage reduction or that clear/CC hole maps by the press of a button the frame does not perform bad at high levels, where WoF at any point in the last few years was just glorified CC(keep in mind 21k damage per WoF hit after the dot CC) and not utilizing accelerant and weapons modded around it was like throwing 95% of the damage you can do right out of the window.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Djego27

[taiiat]

On 4/26/2018 at 12:35 AM, YUNoJump said:

I'm going to make people angry with this statement, but until DE just puts their foot down and deletes WoF entirely, Ember cannot be a good frame based on DE's "more involvement = more power" skill philosophy.

WoF by design requires no effort; it auto-targets enemies and all you have to do is occasionally turn it off and on, which is also the same for any other ability in the game. DE has tried time and time again to make Ember relevant to endgame while keeping WoF intact for the die hard fans, but they also try to limit its damage so that Ember can't wipe Sorties without even seeing the enemies. It's just plain impossible for WoF to exist while maintaining a pro-skill philosophy.

without introducing any new mechanics to World on Fire or significantly changing them, certainly not.
(though, maybe World on Fire would make a pretty sweet Passive.... stuff within the general vicinity of you periodically lights on Fire, hmm....)

On 4/26/2018 at 12:55 AM, General_Durandal said:

Though... Actually, now that I thought more about it, I think that would make her overall worse.
If her powers are scaled, then she will never be any good, even on low level.
Unless it scales differently for each level gap.

Like, it has minimum damage, making low level areas easier,
and extra scaled damage on-top of that so she can endgame.

i mean, i don't have an opinion on it but the usual Flat Value + Percent of Max/Current (depending on how well it's desired to scale) does work pretty well to prevent that.

13 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The problem is that you get literally hit once you get into line of sight as Host(what you are as well as solo player) and movement(rolls, bullet jumping, breaking line of sight in rapid order) does not feel to change that in any meaningful way. While the problem is certainly amplified by the higher spawn rates and the open maps onslaught takes place in, it is not a onslaught only issue and can be perceived in normal game play as well.

(which, as ever the solution to is as simple as the Host adding 20ms of fakelag to itself in terms of where the Enemies think the Host Player is - which then makes Hosts on equal footing with Clients)

Edited May 1, 2018 by taiiat

[General_Durandal]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

snip

Whoa!

Okay, I quoted this in the OP, so people who don't scroll down to read other stuff have a chance to read it.

I don't have rank 3 Arcanes, or a Boar Riven, but i'll try as much of this out next time I take Ember for a spin.
(also have to rank up my Mara Detron)

Thank you!

Edited May 1, 2018 by General_Durandal

[Djego27]

il y a 40 minutes, General_Durandal a dit :

Whoa!

Okay, I quoted this in the OP, so people who don't scroll down to read other stuff have a chance to read it.

I don't have rank 3 Arcanes, or a Boar Riven, but i'll try as much of this out next time I take Ember for a spin.
(also have to rank up my Mara Detron)

You do not need a boar riven, the staticor(that has kind of strange mechanics when it comes to number of hits and status) or most of the secondary or primary bullet hoses and a few other weapons do this just fine without a riven. The reason I use a boar riven is that I really like my old boar prime. The weapon is, assuming you fix the base status chance with a riven, a very well rounded scaling weapon(mostly geared to scaling against armor) and much better from the design point of view then just double damage boltor treatments when it comes to making a interesting prime weapon, given that it only shown it's power at levels that hardly anybody played back in the days before the nerf to the base status chance and with a very specific mod setup.

You also do not need rank 3 arcanes, they offer in my case with Rage just more damage done on your primary weapon(assuming you use a shotgun or a automatic rifle since it is not really useful with other primary weapons by the proc condition and the percentage based rng that goes along with it). Arcane victory is very good on Ember if you already set up your game play to work with arcane rage, however accelerant buffed throwing weapon hits will provide a full heal on a channelled life strike like nearly all the time, given that you only need to do 14.5k damage for a full heal and accelerant as well as hidden modifiers for throwing weapons make this a no issue outside of very heavy armored units.

In the end modifications your base damage by various sources are very powerful on Ember, given that it is exponentially amplified by accelerant. Also different to flat damage buffs, dual status mods come at close to no damage loss all things considered what means your rather specific status approach to certain problems(like armor or aura protections) has no real dps drawback and is capable to take on any kind of meta gun, that in the past did not offer such scalability(with stuff like the akstilleto prime or Tigris prime it unfortunately does) on the damage meters without much effort.

Edit: Viral and Radiation might be 90% resisted by the infested faction(what they are not) and it would still make perfect sense to use a Detron against Infested with Ember. This is because it is still be a massive DPS gain by the way how accelrant works because you get 425% more fire damage against non squishy targets that take more then one hit via the viral proc(more so with higher power strength) and getting around a consistent 90% damage resistance(at high levels) with radiation and the proc transfer mechanic of ancient healers.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Djego27

[Djego27]

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

(which, as ever the solution to is as simple as the Host adding 20ms of fakelag to itself in terms of where the Enemies think the Host Player is - which then makes Hosts on equal footing with Clients)

I think it is not as simple as adding "fakelag" when you look at the code while programming. NPCs do not require to actually have line of sight to take "aim" they know where you are and aim at a vector to your current position while using a wallhack(even max level CS bots are coded that way, what makes the difference is the fine tuning accuracy on the first shot and adding delays to mirror human like reaction speeds) what can be perceived very easy with a cloaking frame that gets shot by everybody instantly once cloak drops.

In my opinion the game should have 2 different aiming models when it comes to treat host or client players(even if the U17 update kind of mange to archive a balance without implementing this what is a very impressive task from a programming pov). If you play on 500ms ping you are basically impossible to hit as long as you do not stand still(to be fair it would be also impossible to dodge any kind of attack at this ping rates, given what you seen on screen is halve a second behind of what is actually happening) while as a host you can not stop getting hit before you break line of sight what is absurd for both cases.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Djego27

[YUNoJump]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

without introducing any new mechanics to World on Fire or significantly changing them, certainly not.
(though, maybe World on Fire would make a pretty sweet Passive.... stuff within the general vicinity of you periodically lights on Fire, hmm....)

That's actually a pretty cool idea, maybe if it also guaranteed a Heat proc (and as such the panicking CC), but fired only once per 1-2 seconds or so? Sounds pretty fun to play with. It's certainly better than her current passive at any rate. 

[low1991]

INB4, problem persist as of U1337. (jk).

As of now, ember is no loner part of my arsenal, but as a collectible. 

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I think it is not as simple as adding "fakelag" when you look at the code while programming. NPCs do not require to actually have line of sight to take "aim" they know where you are and aim at a vector to your current position

that's exactly what lets it be easy - you simply insert a small bit of fakelag on the updating of your own position to the AI as the Host, and now you're a Client as far as the Enemies are concerned.

[Buttaface]

Used to solo long survivals with Ember, Atomos, accelerant spam and Firequake before the accelerant augment and the WOF changes/nerfs. A great way to learn how to move, dodge and corner pull. Now, with some of the stuff ingame (easy to get arcane guardian, zaws, exodia, mod set mods), she is pretty damn tanky. I am having more fun playing her after the various reworks than I ever have.

Have been switching out frames farming the top tier bounties, soloed some with Ember tonight. Did some T4 fissure defense past 20 waves with her today too, in bad teams and good. Ember is in a great place IMO. Does just as well as max range capacitance Volt, Blindbot Excal, Immortal Gara, or Max range Avalanche Frost... just a bit more squishy... but O the extra damage and buffing the team with extra damage!  Ember is as good as any buffer in the game now and better than some.

Think her kit is just fine now, and wouldn't want it changed in any way. All the skills are good... when used at the right time as part of a general accelerant spam CC/buffing theme.