Khora has no theme - an author's observation on Warframe's 'Frame conceits

[Kyryo]

15 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

That's mostly what they've refered to her as. And how was the first iteration better? The only difference in terms of powers was her having an Exalted Whip instead of strangledome, the first 3 powers worked pretty much the same.

pfff no, she also had the possibility to change IPS, but that goes away from this thread purpose.

 

Also to sum up this whole mess that going on, Khora is pratically an abort... hard and bad to say, but this is what she is.

She was meant to be something else, to work with an update and a change that was scrapped in the middle of the work (damage 3.0) and it's clear that when that change collapsed in their hand, Khora had to be rushed, she's been announced in early DECEMBER, they HAD to release her somehow, but the whole concept around her was destroyed.

this is why i think she is such a MESS in all her aspects.

[aligatorno]

6 minutes ago, DiosGX said:

Make her 2 function the way it does and add Strangledome as an alternate function by holding the casting power down. They are effectively the same ability anyway. Re-introduce the exalted whip which was the only saving grace after the dire disappointment of Damage 2.5 disappearing—at which point Khora should have disappeared as well. But the only thing that held anyone's actual interest anymore was the whip.

 

They don't function the same, at all. Do Vauban's Bastille and Vortex functio the same? They both CC, enemies, but do they function the same? If the answer is yes, then all CC abilities function the same. 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by aligatorno

[Xgomme]

"All enemies caught in the Strangledome will take half of Whipclaw’s attack damage when one enemy in the Strangledome is hit with Whipclaw."

 

Do you even whip ?

[Midrib]

3 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

so let's say that there was an exalted whip and maiming strike and all the other mods that make whips as broken as they are wouldn't work on her....then what? sliding all over the place would still be the best option. even if you consider the 'special' effect that exalted weapons have, for what we know that special effect is the IPS switch, which will make everyone use slash in the first place 

 

even without the mods, slide attacks with her exalted whip would still be the only 'strategy' that people would use her for, just like how exaclibur's EB is a mobile energy wave turret

 

basically, get over it and move on since it ain't happening 

Again, if DE didn't want Khora's whip to be a slide attack weapon they could've done it easily without having to replace the whole ability. easiest example is just killing the slide attack damage of the weapon, that combined with the fact that Blood rush doesn't work on whips alone would kill any slide attack weapon

the argument that Khora's whip couldn't happen because it would be another slide attack meta weapon is made under the assumption that DE are incompetent and can't even design an ability correctly, now I think DE makes some mistakes but they are still competent enough to get something as trivial as this right.

the whole "get over it" thing, idk if you read what i wrote of just decided to throw a random insult, but i've already expressed that i have no desire for another exalted weapon nor any desire for another weapon that powers the slide attack meta even more.

 i just dislike the garbage/ignorant points some people bring to try and disregard others who actually wanted it, Exalted whip being broken because of maiming is one of those, since the mod doesn't even function on exalted weapons.

[Sitchrea]

4 minutes ago, Midrib said:

Again, if DE didn't want Khora's whip to be a slide attack weapon they could've done it easily without having to replace the whole ability. easiest example is just killing the slide attack damage of the weapon, that combined with the fact that Blood rush doesn't work on whips alone would kill any slide attack weapon

the argument that Khora's whip couldn't happen because it would be another slide attack meta weapon is made under the assumption that DE are incompetent and can't even design an ability correctly, now I think DE makes some mistakes but they are still competent enough to get something as trivial as this right.

the whole "get over it" thing, idk if you read what i wrote of just decided to throw a random insult, but i've already expressed that i have no desire for another exalted weapon nor any desire for another weapon that powers the slide attack meta even more.

 i just dislike the garbage/ignorant points some people bring to try and disregard others who actually wanted it, Exalted whip being broken because of maiming is one of those, since the mod doesn't even function on exalted weapons.

Another idea is to look at Excalibur's slide attack. He doesn't do a normal slide attack with his Exalted weapon, he does a flashbang.

Why not have Khora do a similar move with the theoretical Exalted Whip, but with a cheaper ensnare instead of flashbang? It would still fit her current abilities, if not exactly her Beastmaster theme.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

I am an author and storyteller. Most of my days are spent at a cafe writing or travelling to conventions to sell my books. Because of this I often notice the storytelling devices developers use in their games to tell the player what they want the player to know. So when I look at a character in a videogame I look for what themes and conceits the creator uses to convey his intent. In Warframe, 'Frame "themes" are more about distinction than moral conveyance, but the process remains the same: each character can be boiled down to a single descriptive word.

Ash? Ninja. Loki? Trickster. Ember? Fire. Nezha? Trap (Just kidding, it's actually just the god "Nezha").

But with Khora... I am at a loss.

What is the theme of Khora? Well, from what I gather, she has no central theme. Each ability has it's own theme, giving Khora no real identity.

• Whipclaw's theme is that it's a whip. In Warframe, weapons can be entire class themes - see Excalibur, Mesa, and Ivara. Khora is not one of those Warframes, as it is only when using this ability the whip is ever seen. Ensnare show it for a brief moment, but the description of Ensnare does not describe it as such, but I'll save that for the next point. I take it the intent for Whipclaw was to give the player the "wrangling" part of being a Beastmaster, of whipping cattle or animals in the field to make them do what you want. This would work, however as there is no synergy on using the whip with the player's actual pets, the players uses it much more as a weapon than a tool. I suspect this is also the reason most players still expect an Exalted Whip, as it follows the same visual language as Excalibur, Mesa, and Ivara whose abilities revolve around their weapon themes. However, since Khora does not follow this visual language, it leads to players being even more confused about what exactly they are experiencing while playing her.
• Ensnare talks about "Living Metal." If Khora is supposed to be a Beastmaster, I do not see any connection to this and the concept living metal. Perhaps the intent is to say that Venari is summoned out of the living metal of the Warframe, but there are several lore issues in saying that (Aren't Warframes more biological than inorganic? How can Venari survive on its own as told in the Ghoul Fragments if it requires living metal from Khora?). Ultimately this theme does not add anything to the Warframe.
• Venari is a summoned Kavat. Simple, effective conveyance of theme. This is the only ability which lends itself to Khora's promise to the player of being a Beastmaster.
• Strangledome is chains and/or barbed wire. While it says "living metal" in the description, the visual and sound effects present the idea of chains or barbed wire more than living metal. One could argue the thematic inclusion of Strangledome was to give the idea that the player is creating a pen or cage one in which one might keep an animal, but then most animal cages don't string up and eviscerate the animals kept inside. At least the cages I've seen don't do that.

In all I've observed, Khora has a set of abilities that were designed for a Warframe who wasn't supposed to have those abilities. As we know, the only ability that survived from her previous - and better - iteration is Venari. However, due to Kavat AI having far too many shortcomings, the ability fails to give the ideal of a "Beastmaster" as players only use Venari as a mobile healing station. The idea of "Beastmaster" is lost to three other abilities which simply do not fit.

Edit: Relevant Addition

  3 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

iirc the designer and artist who came up with her drew inspiration from a 'spider queen'. you can kinda see it in her default helm and her default syndana 

 

having said that, frames can have multiple themes, in fact most frames have 2 themes, 1 for their abilities and the other for their appearance. for example, hydroid is a water theme for his abilities and pirate theme for his looks. chroma is a dragon theme in his appearance and elemental theme for his abilities....sometimes the theme can combine in the abilities/appearance like chroma and his 1 and 4 

See my previous reply.

As for 'Frames having more than one theme - absolutely agree with that. But notice: those themes go well together. Dragons are understood to be elemental creatures in most Fantasy. Pirates and water are assumed to go together. 

Yet so far in this thread alone we have had the themes of Spider, Whip, Dominatrix, and Beastmaster all put into one. Some of those go well together, but not all four. This is why  the execution is flawed - Khora's theme, whatever it was intended to be, does not translate well through her visual, textual, and gameplay implementation.

Whenever someone starts with a "I am a..." on the internet it is mostly an attempt to gain credibility even though we have no way of knowing if you really are what you say. If you are a writer then your imagination must be awfully limited given how you reason in your post. To you the obvious skills of a beastmaster or a dominatrix arent visible in Khora? Wut? Whips, traps, a creature under her command/a companion of some sort doesnt indicate beastmaster or dominatrix to you? The whole idea of domination comes from beastmastery of different aspects. The idea to break someone in and reward them for it etc. There is a reason why people are cuffed, gagged and bound.

Also, since when does "living metal" have to be one certain thing? Ever read Spawn or a comic about Ultron, ever seen a Terminator movie? Ever seen a Nekron Harbinger in WH40k, well or the Nekron's in general? Pinhead from Hellraiser also says hi. Living metal can take so many shapes, forms and concepts because it isnt an actual thing yet. When I read about Khora and Living Metal my ideas directly went to a mixture of T-1000, Spawn and Pinhead, which is exactly what Khora's living metal is. You have the Strangedome chains with a concept of Pinhead and Spawn while her living metal that is tied to Venari stances reflect that of T-1000.

Saying that Khora's beastmaster concept is weak is like saying the Dark Elf Beastmaster concept in Warhammer is just as weak. Both of them actually take inspiration from the deepest core of the idea of a mythological beastmaster with traps, whips and a powerful obediant companion. Even though, in Khora's case she has gone through more than one concept. But that isnt of point, what is of point is if the final product is coherant with a theme, which in Khora's case it very much is.

 

[Sitchrea]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Whenever someone starts with a "I am a..." on the internet it is mostly an attempt to gain credibility even though we have no way of knowing if you really are what you say. If you are a writer then your imagination must be awfully limited given how you reason in your post.

 

I'm actually a fluffy pink elephant who lives in a rainbow.

But no really, if you want my credentials, here is a link to my work through my publisher: http://papersteelpress.com

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

33 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominatrix

That's mostly what they've refered to her as. And how was the first iteration better? The only difference in terms of powers was her having an Exalted Whip instead of strangledome, the first 3 powers worked pretty much the same.

Ensnare was originally shown to propagate like Inaros's 4, making each trapped enemy a new point for the CC to spread from, and constantly spreading throughout its duration.

Now it only affects one target directly, releases indirect target early, and only grabs a few enemies in a small area with no ability to spread out.

So yeah, no where near as good as originally shown.

[aligatorno]

2 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Ensnare was originally shown to propagate like Inaros's 4, making each trapped enemy a new point for the CC to spread from, and constantly spreading throughout its duration.

Now it only affects one target directly, releases indirect target early, and only grabs a few enemies in a small area with no ability to spread out.

So yeah, no where near as good as originally shown.

Not a few enemies, all of the enemies within 6m of it at base range, so 12m total [6 to the left, 6 to the right]. With some range, you can gather up all enemies within 25+m [up to 33m] of the initial target. It does so twice, but it can be charged up to do it multiple times by hitting the initial enemy with whipclaw. Not very useful at low levels since the enemy will die, but for high levels it works.

It still needs tweaks since it doesn't work properly yet, but it was turned into more of an quick working cc rather than overtime like it was in its first iteration before the hotfix. 

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Not a few enemies, all of the enemies within 6m of it at base range, so 12m total [6 to the left, 6 to the right]. With some range, you can gather up all enemies within 25+m [up to 33m] of the initial target. It does so twice, but it can be charged up to do it multiple times by hitting the initial enemy with whipclaw. Not very useful at low levels since the enemy will die, but for high levels it works.

It still needs tweaks since it doesn't work properly yet, but it was turned into more of an quick working cc rather than overtime like it was in its first iteration before the hotfix. 

Problem there is then it's just a slower version of Nidus' Larvae. It is also limited by line of sight; Larvae is limited the same but can be cast on any surface, so it has that advantage as well.

[aligatorno]

4 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Problem there is then it's just a slower version of Nidus' Larvae. It is also limited by line of sight; Larvae is limited the same but can be cast on any surface, so it has that advantage as well.

Not really. Nidus's Larvae is one cast only, and you have to either kill all caught enemies to be able to use it again, wait for it to dissapear or use an augment. 

Ensnare doesn't have a cast limit as far as I can tell, which means you can have multiple choke points. Not to mention that it gives 200% damage bonus to her whip, 400% when in combination with Strangledom. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by aligatorno

[Kaotyke]

57 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

I did not get the feeling of being a spider at all. Her description says nothing about spinning a web - her description entirely advertises her as a Beastmaster.

The spider thing was assumed by players: Looked like a spider? Must be a spider theme.

Even when the Devs said and showed otherwise.

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

The spider thing was assumed by players: Looked like a spider? Must be a spider theme.

Even when the Devs said and showed otherwise.

Which proves my point even more. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

4 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Not really. Nidus's Larvae is one cast only, and you have to either kill all caught enemies to be able to use it again, wait for it to dissapear or use an augment. 

Ensnare doesn't have a cast limit as far as I can tell, which means you can have multiple choke points. Not to mention that it gives 200% damage bonus to her whip, 400% when in combination with Strangledom. 

Except that it is almost impossible to combine Ensnare and Strangledome, as enemies in Strangledome seem to be ignored by Ensnare if the CC wave occurs after they are caught.

Also, Whipclaw is weak enough that your statstick is likely more damaging than the ability itself unless you use it against Ensnared enemies/on Strangledome, which means you only have a few enemies you can kill with it at any given time, unlike most statstick-based 1st abilities, like Excal, Atlas, and Gara, where the ability deals more damage and is universally usable (with atlas being a minor exception in that enemies that are not petrified don't drop rubble, but Petrify is a far more versatile CC then either Ensnare or Strangledome.

[Dreadwire]

She just beautiful.... not useful 

[(PSN)watt4hem]

I think if i have to put a tag on khora's theme, it'd be either ensnarement (tanggled, or occupied by venari's attacks), or metal (she kinda manipulates metal whips, and even cat)

[aligatorno]

19 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Except that it is almost impossible to combine Ensnare and Strangledome, as enemies in Strangledome seem to be ignored by Ensnare if the CC wave occurs after they are caught.

Also, Whipclaw is weak enough that your statstick is likely more damaging than the ability itself unless you use it against Ensnared enemies/on Strangledome, which means you only have a few enemies you can kill with it at any given time, unlike most statstick-based 1st abilities, like Excal, Atlas, and Gara, where the ability deals more damage and is universally usable (with atlas being a minor exception in that enemies that are not petrified don't drop rubble, but Petrify is a far more versatile CC then either Ensnare or Strangledome.

How much testing have you actually done with Whipclaw ? Claiming that Excal's and Gara's 1 deal anywhere near the same damage is preposterous and makes me wonder if you actually played Khora or you are just going with the hate flow. 

I did test to see, the difference between their damage and what Khora can output with the same pwr str and melee build it's very wide. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by aligatorno

[(PSN)OvalNova]

Her theme is to be a crazy cat lady with a Kink for metal (That is apparently living).

[xXDeadsinxX]

Khora really doesn’t have a theme, absolutely agree with OP. She is one of the most disappointing frames that have been added in a long time.

[-T.BRIAREOS.T-]

she is very good like this !!! I always left a part with greater death in high-level mission, and always has a fallen table asking for resurrection, especially in t4 interception. So ... deal with it.

[Azamagon]

There is a difference between theme and actual power useage. In terms of theme, she seems to have 2 main themes as far as I can see, but in regards to her power useage niche wise she is designed quite clearly, handling metal. In her case, her own "living" metal.

And not everything has to be so stereotypical (even though I do agreed with Khora being a slight bit messy).

Look at it like this:

Ash
Theme: Ninja
Actual powers: Smoke manipulation (easiest way to explain Teleport, and Bladestorms mobility too I guess?) + Metallical gadgets (Shuriken+Wristblades)

Ember
Theme: Phoenix
Actual powers: Fire manipulation

Loki
Theme: Trickster
Actual powers: Hmmmm... Space/Matter manipulation/distortion?

Nezha
Theme: "Nezha"
Actual powers: Fire / physical manipulation

Khora
Theme: Beastmaster / Spider Queen
Actual powers: Metal manipulation

So if you look at Loki, while his theme (and gameplay) is perfectly fine, his actual powers is a tad hard to pin down exactly. I can't explain it as one power.
Even moreso for Ash, his theme is very clear as a ninja. But what powers does he actually have? I can't explain it as one power.

And that's fine.

Khora, has the opposite "issue".

Her power useage is very clearly that of manipulating some particular metal, a "living" metal of sorts. That's why Venari is a metallical living being, and why both Strangledome and Ensnare automatically drags in enemies. And Whipclaw is just simply using it as a direct weapon.

But her theme... while I think Beastmaster could fit with some explanation for all abilities, I honestly would still vote on calling her the metalweaving Spider Queen. For these reasons:

• She has a very spiderlike look, you can totally tell the inspiration from spiders.
• Dual Keres - Her theme swords look a lot like spiderlegs.
• Hystrix - Her theme pistol with a toxic (among other things) spider bite / spit, as its link towards the spider-theme. I get an insect-like vibe from its looks too.
• Her Whipclaw is living metal web, woven into a form useable as a direct weapon.
• Ensnare is living metal weaving its prey directly, like how spiders "cocoon" their prey.
• Strangledome is a big living, metalwoven, domeshaped spiderweb, hanging its victims from the ceiling (again, giving it that vibe of spiders "cocooning" its prey on the web which they do to store them as future food)
• But then there is Venari. Why is there a cat instead of a spider as her summoned pet? I think that's due to one simple reason: Arachnophobia. If Venari was a metal spider instead, I think her Spider theme would be crystalclear. But, with arachnophobia being one of (if not the most common) phobias in the world, I bet having a spider pet would scare away a lot of players. So they went with a cat instead, which fits with the other side of her theme anyway; The Beastmaster.

So, if nothing else, I see her as both a Spider Queen and a Beastmaster-esque frame. Just like I see Oberon as a Paladruid (Paladin + Druid). And I really don't have any problems with that *shrugs*.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Azamagon

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, aligatorno said:

They don't function the same, at all. Do Vauban's Bastille and Vortex functio the same? They both CC, enemies, but do they function the same? If the answer is yes, then all CC abilities function the same. 

 

The real problem isn't that her 2 and 4 are the same. In my opinion they are not. It's just that there are other frames that have similar abilities, but that are just better versions of Khoras.

You want to crowd control enemies in an area, Bastille is just better than strangledome, if for no other reason than because it doesn't ragdoll them left and right and all over the place.

You want to immobilize enemies based on proximity to where you cast your ability, then both vortex and Nidu's 2 is much better at it as well. 

On paper Khora is not really bad at all, but whatever you want to do with her, there's just another frame out there that does it better. Which makes her kind of redundant.

(all of this is my opinion of course, if you like her and enjoys playing her, feel free to ignore everything I said)

[aligatorno]

36 minutes ago, rune_me said:

The real problem isn't that her 2 and 4 are the same. In my opinion they are not. It's just that there are other frames that have similar abilities, but that are just better versions of Khoras.

You want to crowd control enemies in an area, Bastille is just better than strangledome, if for no other reason than because it doesn't ragdoll them left and right and all over the place.

You want to immobilize enemies based on proximity to where you cast your ability, then both vortex and Nidu's 2 is much better at it as well. 

On paper Khora is not really bad at all, but whatever you want to do with her, there's just another frame out there that does it better. Which makes her kind of redundant.

(all of this is my opinion of course, if you like her and enjoys playing her, feel free to ignore everything I said)

It's not that I`m not up for debate regarding her, I have my own problems with what she can do. I just can't stand it when people lie or ignore everything and just plain hate her. [Not referring to you here]. As with a lot of other frames, her powers have similarities previous ones, and just like the others, she has her own twists for them. But from what I've noticed in the last few hours in which I`ve been debating her with different people, some just ignore those twists and only focus on the basic things. 

Is her Strangledom very similar to Bastille? Yes it is, but here comes the twists mentioned above. Compared to Bastille who only affects a certain amount of enemies without the augment and only affects enemies who touch it, Khora's Strangledome also : 

1. Does overtime damage which can be pretty potent with the right build right up to lvl 70-90s. At lower levels it just nukes. 
2. While she has half the diameter of Bastille for her Strangledome, she has 5s more duration and the abilit can grab enemies from afar, not requiring it to be touched in order to work
3. While it has a limited number of enemies, according to wiki it can only fit as many as there are vertices in the dome so 26, it turns every enemy caught into an aggro ball, protecting everything inside of it as long as there is one enemy there. 
4. It provides a flat 200% damage increase to ability and weapon damage as well as 50% damage transfer to every all enemies upon whipclaw use. Each transfer is independent, meaning that it can crit and it can proc for each individual enemy. [At least that's what it looked like from my tests].

The ability can serve more than one purpose depending on what you want to focus. You can use it to choke a point, to protect an objective or an area, or you can use it as a damage buff.  So far I didn't have too many problems hitting enemies with whipclaw, but I do agree that the ragdolling can be very chaotic. 

# Ensnare

At the moment it's hard to judge the ability, since it doesn't function properly, but at peak performance it can be very effective. Nidus's Larva is not exactly meant to have the same function as Ensnare since it can only be casted once, it only grabs the enemy once, having to kill every enemy, wait for it to deactivate, or use the augment. Vortex on the other hand, I can agree that at the moment it's a better choice for choke points/enemy gather since Ensnare works based on waves instead of continous pull like it did before the hotfix. 

#Whipclaw

It's an pretty impressive ability which can deal a good amount of damage, similar or even better than a Landslide Atlas can. With the right melee mods and or riven, she can chew through high level enemies without even using ensnare for the damage buff. Once you add that as well, they are toast. She's no Mesa or Saryn, but her Whipclaw can without a doubt do very, very well. With a high activation range and 5m splash damage, she can take on crowds with ease. 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by aligatorno

[Threa]

Well said! Khora, as others may have stated, is the result of one idea being transformed or changed far too many times that it just deviates from the theme it once had. An Exalted Whip, despite the devs and a small amount of the player base being adamantly against it, would have contributed greatly to her theme. As would Venari being an actual spider summon. I think the issue with Khora is that she is being pulled in too many different thematic directions: part beastmaster, part spider queen when she should have been solidified into just one. 

[BlueFalcon13]

Granted I haven't spent the time thinking about it that much but to me she has two themes. Spider and beastmaster. Whipclaw and venari are the beastmaster theme you hit on, and ensare and strangledome is the spider aspects. Strangledome is literally her web in which she catches prey, and ensnare is a lesser form of that.

 

I think the dominatrix stuff is mostly player-driven, and she could be cobsidered more of a black widow/crazy cat lady mashup. Then again, what do I know :shrugs: