[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Razgriz8492nd]

I had all my spores die but the UI did not go away. Could not recast after that.

[NezuHimeSama]

But everyone's saying these mods aren't mandatory?

You can play without them. It's just going to be limiting your viability in the end-game.

Warframe is a coop game so if you want to play solo, you're going to have a rough time. I play solo whenever possible, but I'm not going to demand the game cater exclusively to solo play when it's a coop game.

[Patzer]

1 minute ago, PetTinks said:

I think you missed the point. The key word there was "Mandatory", which seems to be something 'endgame' obsessed players seem to fight and die for. The idea that any mod be mandatory for a warframe to be good completely obliterates the free flowing and open gameplay that warframe sets up. "Look at all these options and choices you can make, but also here's these five things you MUST have otherwise you shouldn't even use this frame".

It's counter-intuitive and limiting, and THAT'S the issue. 

Try this build. It's not very mod intensive. Works ok vs. sortie 3 lvl enemies. Actual builds at the end of the video. Might not be 1080p yet, still processing.

 

[PetTinks]

11 minutes ago, Patzer said:

Try this build. It's not very mod intensive. Works ok vs. sortie 3 lvl enemies. Actual builds at the end of the video. Might not be 1080p yet, still processing.

 

So circling back around, this also leads back into "This new Saryn is broken". This isn't an argument for, it's more an argument against, because all this really showcases is how absolutely ridiculous they've made her ability scaling. Like legitimately how do you look at this and say "This is fine, this is optimal"

My arguments about mods also don't apply to just Saryn, it's a game-wide occurrence. Nobody should be restricted in how much fun they can have just playing the game because they don't have the be-all, end-all mods and frames.

I also think that you believe me to be insinuating that players new to the game can go running into sorties with their unranked mods, which is untrue to the nth degree. I just believe that no matter what you do with your frame, be it early or late game, you shouldn't have to min-max one way or the other, or copy everyone else, because what's fun about that?

Addendum: Australian slang for 'Friend'

Edited May 18, 2018 by PetTinks
Profanity 2.0

[S0V3REiGN]

24 minutes ago, Razgriz8492nd said:

I had all my spores die but the UI did not go away. Could not recast after that.

I had this exact same issue, they need to fix this.

[Airwolfen]

In the starchart its pretty hard to keep the spores going in the area you wish. (should get something to reapply spores at the current amount of stacks)

But when it goes... Just, damn.

Spoiler

 

[GhostLacuna]

4 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

Given this community's track record of rarely, if ever, giving things their fair shot, I sincerely doubt enough actual full tests and in depth examinations have been done.

Of course not. Enough time has not passed for any in depth review yet. It is however clear already that Spore and its spreading mechanics has changed. More tests are needed and i for one will test it more in depth over the weekend and record it so i can review it frame by frame later.

[Stykera]

51 minutes ago, Razgriz8492nd said:

I had all my spores die but the UI did not go away. Could not recast after that.

Common problem

[PetTinks]

2 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

Of course not. Enough time has not passed for any in depth review yet. It is however clear already that Spore and its spreading mechanics has changed. More tests are needed and i for one will test it more in depth over the weekend and record it so i can review it frame by frame later.

The patch dropped over 20 hours ago, more than enough time for first impressions, and plenty of time for playtesting. It has also absolutely been long enough to form an opinion on whether or not these changes are working for the betterment or detriment of the frame. If you need a whole weekend, there's a reason you don't work in game development.

On the off chance this post was sarcastic, congratulations on the worst sarcasm ever. If not, my condolences.

[GhostLacuna]

46 minutes ago, Patzer said:

Try this build. It's not very mod intensive. Works ok vs. sortie 3 lvl enemies. Actual builds at the end of the video. Might not be 1080p yet, still processing.

 

The problem with Sim testing is that it does not tell anyone how it will really perform in the field.  I can do the same with nearly any weapon in the game on saryn but as soon as you step into the actual game the results differ.

It was the same with people hyping up zephyrs funnel cloud augment as a great DPS tool after Sim testing just to realize that such an optimized enemy configuration never happens in the real missions.

[VoidFlux]

7 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

post the build you were using and maybe we can remove user error we start looking for issues in the code

Was running rejuv(max), power drift(Max), constitution(Max), stretch(Max), streamline(Max), blind rage (8rank), overextened(Max), intensifty(Max), transient fortitude (Max), augur reach(Max).    build give me Duration of 101%, efficiency 85%,  range 265%, strength 221%,  with 265% range which give me a active spread radius of 42.4m and a death spread of 21.2 m i shouldn't be having these problems with spreading. 

[Patzer]

2 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

The problem with Sim testing is that it does not tell anyone how it will really perform in the field.  I can do the same with nearly any weapon in the game on saryn but as soon as you step into the actual game the results differ.

It was the same with people hyping up zephyrs funnel cloud augment as a great DPS tool after Sim testing just to realize that such an optimized enemy configuration never happens in the real missions.

Agreed, though you should tell this to someone who quoted this post first. 😉

[Evanescent]

22 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

 

r

• Casting Spores on an enemy that dies during the animation locks the ability from being recast until you die. 

Was locked out of using spores in an onslaught mission. My spore counter was stuck at 12, and spore could not be cast even passing through the portals, until dying and reviving. Was the client. Possibly the bug has not been fixed or a similar one has appeared. Other teammate was a volt.

[PetTinks]

1 minute ago, Patzer said:

Agreed, though you should tell this to someone who quoted this post first. 😉

I chose this hill to die on. If your argument boils down to "But look, it works just fine with no mods at all against sortie 3 enemies", there's still an issue, bud.

Get a better argument, or move on. Or be a nuisance, the choice is really yours, to the detriment of brain cells everywhere.

[GhostLacuna]

Just now, PetTinks said:

The patch dropped over 20 hours ago, more than enough time for first impressions, and plenty of time for playtesting. It has also absolutely been long enough to form an opinion on whether or not these changes are working for the betterment or detriment of the frame. If you need a whole weekend, there's a reason you don't work in game development.

On the off chance this post was sarcastic, congratulations on the worst sarcasm ever. If not, my condolences.

I was just answering to Termiteframe and his/her doubt that in depth testing would have been done.  I know very well that enough playtesting has been done to find flaws and spot problems. I done a few hours of it myself.

But we do not yet know why the spread on spores is so different between gamers right now that we could possible find out after more tests have been run.  I for one do not consider any tests that are less then a week old to be anywhere near in depth but then i hold in depth testing to far higher standards then any game developer would ever use due to time and cost factors.

I will do more tests then i had time to run yesterday over the weekend and record a few sample runs to see frame by frame if i can spot any actual visual proof of how the spore spread has changed.

Once i have that i will provide it as feedback to DE so they can investigate it further.

[GhostLacuna]

9 minutes ago, Patzer said:

Agreed, though you should tell this to someone who quoted this post first. 😉

Oh typical i though i actually did. My mistake.

[tnccs215]

@[DE]Danielle, I've been trying the rework so far and I've been somewhat satisfied. However, I'd love if you (or anyone at DE) could give some clarity over some doubts I got:

1)is there a limit of 3 spores per enemy? I noticed I only see 3 damage ticks per enemy, but hitting with higher damage than listed. Is it due to the corrosive damage multiplier, or because, for efficiency sake, you "fuse" spores together when there are too many on an enemy? (In no way this is an issue, I've been managing to satisfyingly murder enemies as is. Any extra spores would make it too easy, and it's arguably already so)

2)Are spores popped on enemy death - i.e. If an enemy with spores attached dies do they spread to nearby enemies even if I don't do anything? That seems to happen, but I might be wrong. 

3)Do popped spores spread to the same enemy? Because I've noticed that occasionally happen. Again might be my mistake. 

[PetTinks]

3 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

I was just answering to Termiteframe and his/her doubt that in depth testing would have been done.  I know very well that enough playtesting has been done to find flaws and spot problems. I done a few hours of it myself.

But we do not yet know why the spread on spores is so different between gamers right now that we could possible find out after more tests have been run.  I for one do not consider any tests that are less then a week old to be anywhere near in depth but then i hold in depth testing to far higher standards then any game developer would ever use due to time and cost factors.

I will do more tests then i had time to run yesterday over the weekend and record a few sample runs to see frame by frame if i can spot any actual visual proof of how the spore spread has changed.

Once i have that i will provide it as feedback to DE so they can investigate it further.

I could give you a few reasons.

1. Lag

2. Different mod setups - Not everyone will have the same effective range

3. issues with how the spread of spores is coded, which will not have visual indicators.

 

The best you can do with frame by frame analysis is say "Yep, something isn't right here"

There is no way to actually tell what the issue is just by looking at it slow enough.

[Showerwalker]

after 4 hrs of testing. great rework, new saryns seems much more viable in other places than defense, however the problem most people seems to be having is how her new spore works. the new way seems too... delicate, particularly in larger rooms.

AI in this game is stupid (or too 'smart' in this case perhaps.. ) if u cast on 1 enemy and he decides to turn his back and just leaves his team or never move up from his cover, u need to detonate it and do it again, and if the target dies too quickly the dmg never get to spread beyond 2 or 3 before they have the chance to bunch up (happens very very frequently in solo), making higher than average range not rewarding but a necessity.

would be much better if it's a 'small aoe', like how Ash's 1 or Ivara's 1 works, that way if 1 enemy fails to spread it at least another 1 to 3 enemies can. Or maybe give it a 'hold' mechanic? hit 1 to inflict a target, hold 1 to detonate.

 

if not the above.. at least make it so that when detonating while aiming at an enemy, a new spore will be applied at the same time... also please make them glow or have more FX or fix current FX to clearly indicate they're infected... with numbers everywhere its hard to keep track of them outside the sim especially when the spores happen to hide inside the model.

 

PS: could be just me, but it seems to spread better horizontally than vertically. in a room smaller than modded spread radius often a few will be left unaffected. also, on a serious note, inflicted enemies dying to spore tend to have a much smaller spread radius than those who died to weapons.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Showerwalker

[Evanescent]

Tested in onslaught today. Just to be frank, I am no Saryn main. Before the rework I found her too complicated and dull to use extensively.

Used a balanced build with no corrupted mods, with primed continuity for duration, primed flow for power capacity, streamline, intensify for power strength, stretch, an augur set mod for range, cunning drift, vitality and regenerative molt. For arcanes i had max arcane grace and arcane guardian sets.

For focus school I had zenurik with max energizing dash.

Spore: Very strong, feels more active now. This is how it needs to be to compensate for the switch to corrosive from viral. However has something that may or may not be seen as a problem that will be discussed later.

Molt: Especially with the augment feels very nice to use for quick escapes. Love the increased movespeed bonus, quite thematic and fun! More durable.

Toxic Lash: The synergy with spore feels great. Found myself gently nudging the spores throughout the battlefield. Increased duration is very appreciated! 

Miasma: I can see this being used to room clear at lower levels. At high levels can be a very useful debuff and light cc. Like the increased duration and refresh on recast.

I had ample energy to work with, even having to start from base energy with no more than one zenurik dash at the beginning of the zone.

With one other teammate, we easily made it to zone 15 before letting the timer run out. Survivability was definitely better, though not by leaps and bounds. Felt very satisfying and intuitive to use and was able to consistently keep up ramping dps when enemies could withstand spores.

 

Overall:

Saryn felt the best against grineer waves. This indicates something I consider to be a characteristic shared by Pablo's warframe designs:

The warframes are too strong for their own kit to work at 100% at lower levels. For example, Nidus only reaches his best gameplay when enemies are able too dish out tremendous amounts of damage and take a beating. Similarly, Saryn is at her most powerful against high level enemies that can allow spore to build up. The game does not normally have the power to fuel his warframes to their maximum power output. 

At the cost of less functional kits at lower levels, the warframes achieve scaling potential. This is not necessarily a bad thing. For players like me, it's acceptable because that means frames remain relevant with ramping content. Incomplete builds allow a similar feel at lower levels, which new players can be assumed to have. In that case, it is not a detriment. 

However for maxed out builds you will only spread your wings and have the most fun when enemies reach your level which in normal missions can take a while.

At its current form, spores kill enemies too fast to spread at lower levels. This is a clever way of capping its afk abuse potential at those levels because the ability caps itself.

When the enemies were not strong enough, it was better to use miasma and toxic lash to wipe them with single casts and weaponry.

When the enemies scaled up enough though, spreading spores became a great goal and felt very rewarding due to the ramping damage. best of all it felt very active.

 

Verdict:

Well done.

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Evanescent
Typos!

[PetTinks]

13 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Tested in onslaught today. Just to be frank, I am no Saryn main. Before the rework I found her too complicated and dull to use extensively.

Used a balanced build with no corrupted mods, with primed continuity for duration, primed flow for power capacity, streamline, intensify for power strength, stretch, an augur set mod for range, cunning drift, vitality and regenerative molt. For arcanes i had max arcane grace and arcane guardian sets.

For focus school I had zenurik with max energizing dash.

Spore: Very strong, feels more active now. This is how it nees to be to compensate for the switch to corrosive from viral. However has something that may or may not be seen as a problem that will be discussed later.

Molt: Especially with the augment feels very nice to use for quick escapes. Love the increased movespeed bonus, quite thematic and fun! More durable.

Toxic Lash: The synergy with spore feels great. Found myself gently nudging the spores throughout the battlefield. Increased duration is very appreciated! 

Miasma: I can see this being used to room clear at lower levels. At high levels can be a very useful debuff and light cc. Like the increased duration and refresh on recast.

I had ample energy to work with, even having to start from base energy with no more than one zenurik dash at the beginning of the zone.

With one other teammate, we easily made it to zone 15 before letting the timer run out. Survivability was definitely better, though not by leaps and bounds. Felt very satisfying and intuitive to use and was able to consistently keep up ramping dps when enemies could withstand spores.

 

Overall:

Saryn felt the best against grineer waves. This indicates something I consider to be a characteristic shared by Pablo's warframe designs:

The warframes are too strong for their own kit to work at 100% at lower levels. For example, Nidus only reaches his best gameplay when enemies are able too dish out tremendous amounts of damage and take a beating. Similarly, Saryn is at her most powerful against high level enemies that can allow spore to build up. The game does not normally have the power to fuel his warframes to their maximum power output. 

At the cost of less functional kits at lower levels, the warframes achieve scaling potential. This is not necessarily a bad thing. For players like me, it's acceptable because that means frames remain relevant with ramping content. Incomplete builds allow a similar feel at lower levels, which new players can be assumed to have. In that case, it is not a detriment. 

However for maxed out builds you will only spread your wings and have the most fun when enemies reach your level which in normal missions can take a while.

At its current form, spores kill enemies too fast to spread at lower levels. This is a clever way of capping its afk abuse potential at those levels because the ability caps itself.

When the enemies were not strong enough, it was better to use miasma and toxic lash to wipe them with single casts and weaponry.

When the enemies scaled up enough though, spreading spores became a great goal and felt very rewarding due to the ramping damage. best of all it felt very active.

 

Verdict:

Well done.

 

I like that this is well thought out, but I have some questions.

1. Spore capping itself - At lower levels the ability capping itself could be a turn off for newer players no? why play something that is only fun in a part of the game they have yet to reach?

2. Dependency on Toxin lash - Does it not feel forced into being almost needed to play Saryn effectively? Does it not feel more like splitting spore out across two abilities since one without the other is almost pointless?

3. Encouraging active play - Could this not have been achieved through smaller tweaks, as it is just DE forcing people to actually play the game how it was intended, rather than finding loopholes?

4. Scaling - Is this beneficial, or equally broken as standing still all mission, as another player demonstrated quite snarkily that an unmodded saryn can quite easily kill level 100 heavy gunners?

I'm interested in what you think about this.

Edited May 18, 2018 by PetTinks
typos

[GhostLacuna]

47 minutes ago, PetTinks said:

I could give you a few reasons.

1. Lag

2. Different mod setups - Not everyone will have the same effective range

3. issues with how the spread of spores is coded, which will not have visual indicators.

 

The best you can do with frame by frame analysis is say "Yep, something isn't right here"

There is no way to actually tell what the issue is just by looking at it slow enough.

All valid points but i can remove lag from the equation by doing the tests in solo so then what remains is mod setup and that can be shown with ease.

How spore is coded is on DEs table and theirs alone all we can do is provide constructive criticism and feedback that can help improve saryn after the changes.

Something is not right here is the first step in uncovering the root cause of an error so i dont see that as a problem at all.

[Xyhon]

Spores are underwhelming, and making it one cast at a time only, is feeling totally unfair. Enemy grouping is bad enough with current spawn points, and considering other frames aoe bursts, infected enemies don't last to actually spread/grow damage. Spores should outlive it's host if you want to keep it that way, because it wouldn't be feeling like an energy loss when casting them. 

Else, I am forced to cast spores every time group spawns, and this is not what you call, energy friendly. Pairing it with miasma is a pita now.

[cursedmoon13]

After watching Rob's (AGGP) video on the new Saryn, I got an idea. He was comparing Saryn to a mom that had to chase her rambunctious kids around, and I thought, "wouldn't it be nice if Saryn's UI had a radar element, where it would light up around the rim in sections to show which directions infected enemies were in?" Basically, that phone tracking thing for overworked single mom Saryn to find her kids.

[Airwolfen]

8 minutes ago, cursedmoon13 said:

After watching Rob's (AGGP) video on the new Saryn, I got an idea. He was comparing Saryn to a mom that had to chase her rambunctious kids around, and I thought, "wouldn't it be nice if Saryn's UI had a radar element, where it would light up around the rim in sections to show which directions infected enemies were in?" Basically, that phone tracking thing for overworked single mom Saryn to find her kids.

Pretty neat actually