Dev Workshop: Spores Revisited (Saryn)

[KyrusDarkstrider]

love the forum software.. can't even quote right

Quote

Spores

• Drain occurs once per half second instead of continuous.
• Targets you cast Spores on directly will always spread on death.
• Targets affected by Miasma will always spread on death.
• Spores won't be removed by enemies going temporarily invulnerable because of void tears corrupting them.
• Tone down Spore decaying blinking warning
• Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage being removed when casting Spores on a target that is being simultaneously killed by a teammate. 
• Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage decay drain discrepancies when entering a Nullifier bubble. Damage was decaying slower the second time entering a Nullifier bubble.
• Fixed Saryn's Spores and Contagion cloud not using custom Energy colors on cast/burst. 

Miasma

• Increased sickness Duration by 1 second. 
• Lowered Energy cost to 75. 
• Decreased damage tick to 300.

Let's address each point with spores:

Drain occurs once per half second instead of continuous. - This is visual only, it's still 5 points per tick. if intended this is a sneaky tactic to say it's a change

Targets you cast Spores on directly will always spread on death. - That's a MUCH needed change

Targets affected by Miasma will always spread on death. - A synergy that should have been from the start

Spores won't be removed by enemies going temporarily invulnerable because of void tears corrupting them. - About time

Tone down Spore decaying blinking warning - Didn't notice much to this, but lighter touches visually in the hud are ALWAYS good

Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage being removed when casting Spores on a target that is being simultaneously killed by a teammate. - A good fix for team play

Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage decay drain discrepancies when entering a Nullifier bubble. Damage was decaying slower the second time entering a Nullifier bubble. - bugfix is fine, consistancy

Fixed Saryn's Spores and Contagion cloud not using custom Energy colors on cast/burst. - Eh.. colors..

@[DE]Danielle What was Miasma's damage tick before? since, it got nerfed..

[Kalvorax]

23 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

And more changes have arrived in PC Hotfix 22.20.7 (with an added Miasma changes bonus)!

Spores

• Drain occurs once per half second instead of continuous.
• Targets you cast Spores on directly will always spread on death.
• Targets affected by Miasma will always spread on death.
• Spores won't be removed by enemies going temporarily invulnerable because of void tears corrupting them.
• Tone down Spore decaying blinking warning
• Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage being removed when casting Spores on a target that is being simultaneously killed by a teammate. 
• Fixed Saryn’s Spore damage decay drain discrepancies when entering a Nullifier bubble. Damage was decaying slower the second time entering a Nullifier bubble.
• Fixed Saryn's Spores and Contagion cloud not using custom Energy colors on cast/burst.
   

Miasma

• Increased sickness Duration by 1 second. 
• Lowered Energy cost to 75. 
• Decreased damage tick to 300.

Thank you all for your thorough testing and constructive feedback.

so ive tried saryn since these changes.....and her spores seems to STILL have issues spreading...i see enemies dying next to uninfected ones and they dont get a spore (which i REALLY think should be 3 just like the initial cast.....

On another note...what IS the range of on death spread? is it the same as all other instances of spore spread?

and what is the Sickness duration on Miasma?

[KyrusDarkstrider]

well.. spores ticks down WAY too fast, I've seen it drop nearly 100 in 10 6 seconds

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, KyrusDarkstrider said:

Ticks are .5 seconds, but are STILL 5, so this is JUST a visual change, not a functional one why bother mentioning it?

people said they were feeling anxious because of the rapidity of the counter, I'm assuming that fix is for them

edit: if it really is just visual

[Raijin83]

On 2018-05-29 at 12:54 PM, Vethalon said:

I simple had to answer to this thread as I really love the new Saryn, my only gripe is that spores are hard to keep up in low level missions, in High level missions like sorties I can easily keep my spores going past 3000 damage for almost the entire run.

Efficiency is also no problem for me, I was worried at first because of the removal of the energy gain on toxic leash, but so far I had no energy troubles with my 100% efficiency build.

I always loved Saryn, but I wasn't this much of a killing machine since the old press 4 to melt room days.

I really hope they keep her like this for a while, I finally feel great playing saryn again.

EDIT:

After reading through more pages of this thread, what kind of builds are you people using that you can't manage your energy?

Seriously, I feel like most people having difficulty with her now have a 45% efficiency and >200% strength build, which doesn't really work well with her now (at least for me and probably for the ones complaining).

Recasting spores is also the way to go, the damage malus is neglectable in the long run.

Since the rework I have seldom been in a group where my damage was >70% at the end and I'm having tons of fun.

i don't like this Saryn. it's hard to keep up the spores cause enemies at low level don't have high health so the tick damage that kills them doesn't spread spores like it did before the changes. before the cap you could easily reach above 10k. from above 10k to 3+k is massive nerf, and i don't think you reach that in 30 seconds. you need power strength cause with the cap of enemies for max damage growth the damage growth is very slow and you also need high power strength to decrease the stupid % of the reset decay when recasting spores. default is 20% decrease of ramped up damage. also we shouldn't limit our power strength cause ">200% doesn't work well with her now". it's ridiculous

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Raijin83 said:

i don't like this Saryn. it's hard to keep up the spores cause enemies at low level don't have high health so the tick damage that kills them doesn't spread spores like it did before the changes. before the cap you could easily reach above 10k. from above 10k to 3+k is massive nerf, and i don't think you reach that in 30 seconds. you need power strength cause with the cap of enemies for max damage growth the damage growth is very slow and you also need high power strength to decrease the stupid % of the reset decay when recasting spores. default is 20% decrease of ramped up damage. also we shouldn't limit our power strength cause ">200% doesn't work well with her now". it's ridiculous

You are expecting too much from a 25 energy #1 skill. It shouldnt be the be-all-end-all skill. As it works now, since the recent change is 22.20.7 it is perfect.

I've played alongside plenty of Saryn players since the changes (from first patch to the latest) and they are simply building her oddly or playing her way too passivly. You dont need power strength in massive amounts, nor do you actually need a positive number. I've played with a 70% strength 280% range build and a 109% strength and 265% range build, they both work wonderfully well.

I'm going to stick with my 109/265 build since I dont feel a need for efficiency anymore which my 70/280 included, since they now reduced the cost of miasma. Along with that cost reduction and the new spread mechanic tied to miasma it is very hard to not keep the spread going. Also the penatly for recasting is there simply so you dont spam stuff up. The recast option is simply there when you are in dire need to apply a new spore at a new place far away from the old. Far better than the previous accidental detonation mechanic it had tied to it.

Just build her right, including weapon loadout and she will do extremely well. She is very powerful as is against anything of any level.

 

[IfritKajiTora]

Earlier spores were decaying fast too fast. Miasma helps it a lot Now which is great. But now you made decaying even worst.
Earlier 10% per second, now 10% per half second.... this is not good. Makes duration even less needed because the difference between 100% duration and 150% duration is too low.
With Miasma spreading spores, the old decaying would be fine. But now it's even worst.

Also there sometimes is a problem with lags I guess.
1.Cast spores
2.Kill the target
3.Spores start to decaying, two ticks so you lost already 20% your spore damage.
4.8+ infected enemies
5.???? I cast spores killed the target and spread occur after 1-2 seconds? But thanks to that lost some damage.

Spores decaying should have delay if the last spore is removed. 1 sec or 2 second would be great, in case of lags or that enemies aren't spawning in time.

[IfritKajiTora]

9 hours ago, Raijin83 said:

i don't like this Saryn. it's hard to keep up the spores cause enemies at low level don't have high health so the tick damage that kills them doesn't spread spores like it did before the changes. before the cap you could easily reach above 10k. from above 10k to 3+k is massive nerf, and i don't think you reach that in 30 seconds. you need power strength cause with the cap of enemies for max damage growth the damage growth is very slow and you also need high power strength to decrease the stupid % of the reset decay when recasting spores. default is 20% decrease of ramped up damage. also we shouldn't limit our power strength cause ">200% doesn't work well with her now". it's ridiculous

Make negative strength build then.

[Raijin83]

52 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You are expecting too much from a 25 energy #1 skill. It shouldnt be the be-all-end-all skill. As it works now, since the recent change is 22.20.7 it is perfect.

I've played alongside plenty of Saryn players since the changes (from first patch to the latest) and they are simply building her oddly or playing her way too passivly. You dont need power strength in massive amounts, nor do you actually need a positive number. I've played with a 70% strength 280% range build and a 109% strength and 265% range build, they both work wonderfully well.

I'm going to stick with my 109/265 build since I dont feel a need for efficiency anymore which my 70/280 included, since they now reduced the cost of miasma. Along with that cost reduction and the new spread mechanic tied to miasma it is very hard to not keep the spread going. Also the penatly for recasting is there simply so you dont spam stuff up. The recast option is simply there when you are in dire need to apply a new spore at a new place far away from the old. Far better than the previous accidental detonation mechanic it had tied to it.

Just build her right, including weapon loadout and she will do extremely well. She is very powerful as is against anything of any level.

 

it's perfect for you. not for me

i don't want to play the way you want but the way i want, and the way i want the frame is mehhhhh and outside onslaught it's even worse. i bet you're playing with melee-condition overload build and button mashing E, and when you say things like 70% power strength you definitely play with melee and just spread spores to do damage with melee-condition overload. i never use melee so your build doesn't work for me

i didn't like the detonation on spores. what makes you think i like the current penalty? i don't. a caster frame with penalties? this is ridiculous. we're playing a freaking pve focused game and not worldwide e-sports pvp game. get real

[Raijin83]

2 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

Make negative strength build then.

i don't want to play a low power strength build and you tell me to play with negative power strength? as it seems you misunderstood my comment. first read the comment of the person i quote and then read my comment

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Raijin83 said:

it's perfect for you. not for me

i don't want to play the way you want but the way i want, and the way i want the frame is mehhhhh and outside onslaught it's even worse. i bet you're playing with melee-condition overload build and button mashing E, and when you say things like 70% power strength you definitely play with melee and just spread spores to do damage with melee-condition overload. i never use melee so your build doesn't work for me

i didn't like the detonation on spores. what makes you think i like the current penalty? i don't. a caster frame with penalties? this is ridiculous. we're playing a freaking pve focused game and not worldwide e-sports pvp game. get real

Nope, no CO build whatsoever. And she is still so very strong. I'm running Vectis P, Ignis W, Astilla, Atomos, Soma P, Zarr, Lenz, Twin Grakata, Pyrana, Arca Plasmor and a few other ranged options as I see fit. Never an issue with her. I only run a Tonbo as backup healing and trash clearing when I dont feel like shooting.

So far it melts all content and when trying it in the Dojo it wipes out a 20 man lvl120 group of mixed Corrupted HGs/Bombards in seconds. Time is slightly different between weapon setups. That is with both a 70% and 109% strength builds. You dont need more than that.

She also isnt a "caster" frame. She is a mid-tanky-dps frame with huge debuff potential and map coverage. She is certainly in a very strong spot atm, she really doesnt need more. An active playstyle for her is rewarding, so is building her right.

[Raijin83]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope, no CO build whatsoever. And she is still so very strong. I'm running Vectis P, Ignis W, Astilla, Atomos, Soma P, Zarr, Lenz, Twin Grakata, Pyrana, Arca Plasmor and a few other ranged options as I see fit. Never an issue with her. I only run a Tonbo as backup healing and trash clearing when I dont feel like shooting.

So far it melts all content and when trying it in the Dojo it wipes out a 20 man lvl120 group of mixed Corrupted HGs/Bombards in seconds. Time is slightly different between weapon setups. That is with both a 70% and 109% strength builds. You dont need more than that.

She also isnt a "caster" frame. She is a mid-tanky-dps frame with huge debuff potential and map coverage. She is certainly in a very strong spot atm, she really doesnt need more. An active playstyle for her is rewarding, so is building her right.

you don't know how i play and you tell me you don't need more power strength than 109%? my 2 hands aren't enough to facepalm

Saryn isn't a caster frame? hahahahahahahahaha. when you finish a mission scroll down and look how many abilities you cast and compare it with the other members of the group. maybe you don't cast many abilities but i do. at the very least i cast more abilities than 2 members of the group combined. if this is not a caster then what's a caster? i'm not satisfied the way she is now and there are some changes i'd like to see

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Raijin83 said:

you don't know how i play and you tell me you don't need more power strength than 109%? my 2 hands aren't enough to facepalm

Saryn isn't a caster frame? hahahahahahahahaha. when you finish a mission scroll down and look how many abilities you cast and compare it with the other members of the group. maybe you don't cast many abilities but i do. i cast more abilities than the 3 other members of the group combined(unless another Saryn is in the group), and if there was no penalty in spores my number of cast skills would be even higher. if this is not a caster then what's a caster?

But then you are obviously doing something wrong if your build isnt working for you. As I said, I have zero issues with her on a negative or slightly positive power strength build. And by no problem I mean topping the charts without feeling like I need to work hard for it.

And as for caster frame, that depends on the deffinition. Sure she uses alot of her abilites (miasma mostly) but she isnt fragile like what a typcial "caster" would be due to her high armor and relativley high HP. I dont spam my skills, I simply rely on Spore, Lash and then Miasma in between. Spores is only used if really needed. But then again that isnt very often due to high range and the new miasma synergy with spores.

Maybe you are running a low range/high strength spec and spam your spores too much instead of relying on range and map wide lash/miasma synergized spread? Spamming spores with a high strength build costs you way too much compared to a lower strength far range build where you pop the spores manually or through miasma.

Not sure why you are getting defensive and straight up rude because someone tries to give you tips. I'm just giving you suggestions on what can be done if you have issues with spread, stacks and decay.

[Raijin83]

59 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But then you are obviously doing something wrong if your build isnt working for you. As I said, I have zero issues with her on a negative or slightly positive power strength build. And by no problem I mean topping the charts without feeling like I need to work hard for it.

And as for caster frame, that depends on the deffinition. Sure she uses alot of her abilites (miasma mostly) but she isnt fragile like what a typcial "caster" would be due to her high armor and relativley high HP. I dont spam my skills, I simply rely on Spore, Lash and then Miasma in between. Spores is only used if really needed. But then again that isnt very often due to high range and the new miasma synergy with spores.

Maybe you are running a low range/high strength spec and spam your spores too much instead of relying on range and map wide lash/miasma synergized spread? Spamming spores with a high strength build costs you way too much compared to a lower strength far range build where you pop the spores manually or through miasma.

Not sure why you are getting defensive and straight up rude because someone tries to give you tips. I'm just giving you suggestions on what can be done if you have issues with spread, stacks and decay.

you don't know how i play but my build isn't working for me? do you even realize what you're typing? obviously you don't. the way i want to play i have issues

does the frame cast lots of skills(even if you don't spam) yes or no? yes. then it's a caster. the rest are irrelevant. she has high hp but low shield so it's balanced in a way. they gave her more defense recently. before that the frame was a caster. just because they gave her higher defense recently it doesn't mean the frame isn't a caster anymore. it's a tankier caster

in the 3rd paragraph you say "Maybe you are running a low range/high strength spec and spam your spores too much instead of relying on range and map wide lash/miasma synergized spread? Spamming spores with a high strength build costs you way too much compared to a lower strength far range build where you pop the spores manually or through miasma." and in the 4th paragraph you say "Not sure why you are getting defensive and straight up rude because someone tries to give you tips. I'm just giving you suggestions on what can be done if you have issues with spread, stacks and decay." how exactly in the 4th paragraph you say you give me tips when you gave me tips in your 3rd paragraph in the same comment? are you messing with my intelligence right now? it's not working. and yes, you are messing with my intelligence. you can't write a comment to someone and in 1 paragraph you say "this is not the right way to build the fence. you have to do this and this and this" and in the next paragraph of the same comment you say "i'm giving you tips as to how to build a fence. you don't have to be rude". it doesn't work that way

[greiff]

The issue regarding spores spreading is definitely still there... Was running fissue and onslaught for the pass 2 hours, and on some occasion it spread alright, but i would say 70% of the time it wont spread at all....

The few most consistent examples are:

- Enemy spored and under miasma, doesn't spread spores when they die...

- Enemy spored, killed by ally doesn't spread spore

 

One last point from me: The decay % is still way too fast.

 

Otherwise on paper i am quite happy with the latest changes.... if they really works

 

[Seinra]

 

This man is saying that his pride is too high to fix something that he broke, he recognizes his mistake but does not intend to fix it. Maybe it's not his pride, maybe he doesn't want to waste more time with this and I understand that if I take into account the upcoming updates and reworks but...

@[DE]Pablo, let me tell you how fun Saryn was and how you made a mess of her:

Before all this rework we had a Saryn that could easily wipe every spot of enemies in the star chart by spamming Spores, but you still had time to enjoy your weapons because it was a Viral damage and the strong part of it was the status effect. With that said, you would remember that her Spores was a way to weaken the high lvl enemies (lvl +50) because the Viral Spores could not kill them, so we had to play with our weapons and Saryn's synergies!

I remember playing Saryn like: 1st cast the Molt, 2nd the Spores in the Molt, 3rd cast Toxic Lash and then I started the killing spree wielding my War and getting the energy back with the infected enemies, that plus Arcane Energize/Hunter Adrenaline was giving me the enough energy to heal myself too thanks to Vital Attack. This was beautiful, I was having fun killing with my weapons and killing with my skills! If in one point the enemies were too hard I could cast Molt and Miasma to kill almost everything, I remember Miasma being something glorious in those moments, it was like a 4th skill should be, my last card, my ace up my sleeve... 

But what do I have now? Now I have a Warframe that can wipe out everything (regardless of the enemy lvl) by pressing 1+4 with her default Power Strenght, you don't even have to move around. When was this fun? Can you please remind me what is the meaning of carrying weapons now? And of course the meaning of Toxic Lash because I don't need it now, Miasma can spread the spores in a much more effective way, I don't have to move my Warframe! Now my "ace up my sleeve" is a support skill in my new glass cannon Warframe LOL.

Also, I remember than this rework started nerfing the energy gain in Toxic Lash because Saryn was going to be less "energy hungry"... Man, not even Mag and Nova are so "energy hungry" as my Saryn is now, I need a pocket EV Triny because Zenurik, Arcane Energize and Hunter Adrenaline are not enough and this with 100%-130% Efficiency.

PS1: Do I actually have to play Molt? With everything being dead I can't understand how to play that... Maybe to ress an ally? And why it has speed boost? I don't need that to ress an ally ._.
PS2: The REAL fix that we need? We need the Viral Spores and Corrosive Miasma back with GOOD SYNERGIES to have more damage in Miasma and of course the energy gain back in Toxic Lash... Also, Molt is not good, can we have a skill (Scaly Skin would be a good name) that give us HP regen, damage reduction or armor per enemy affected by Spores? That could be more useful.
PS3: Right now Saryn is like playing a very more powerful Mag, with Saryn you spam 1+4 and with Mag 3+4 so she is not so different from other Warframes..
PS4: If it's pride, I recommend you to keep it for yourself and fix what you screwed up.
PS5: Sorry for my bad english.

[jerrysimon]

On 2018-05-24 at 5:26 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores’ damage growth over time per Spore is now determined per enemy infected. And with it, a max limit of 10 infected enemies to maintain a max damage growth limit over time. To better explain this change and how it all breaks down, let’s explore it further by comparing its current state to its changed state:
 

• Current: Damage growth is determined per Spore, so 1 damage per Spore every second. For example, let’s say there are 5 enemies. You cast Spores on one of the enemies in that group. 3 Spores are now active on that enemy. Damaging that enemy with Toxic Lash disperses a single Spore to the surrounding 4 enemies for a grand total of 7 Spores (4 enemies with a single Spore + the 3 original Spores on cast). This maintains a damage growth of 7 damage every second. 
   
• Changed: Damage growth is determined per enemy infected, so 2 damage (can be modded with Ability Strength) per enemy infected by Spores every second up to a maximum of 10 enemies. So, using that same example, 5 infected enemies would set the damage growth to 10 damage every second (Modded damage growth of x * # of enemies infected up to 10). Reaching 10 infected enemies would set the maximum damage growth at 20 every second.
  • Edit: To clarify, the number of infected enemies is uncapped! You can infect more than 10 enemies, but the damage growth is dependent on that max. 
  • For the sake of best describing the intent of this change, we’d like to point out some of the unexpected irony between both workshops. While work on Saryn began very early on this year, the first assumption was that change was amidst her performance in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught. What actually ended up transpiring (post rework) was quite the opposite. Saryn as she is now continues to take charge in Onslaught (more so now than before). However, she’s a bit of a “one cast wonder” in Simaris’ realm. Sitting back and watching Spores destroy a map didn’t fall in line with that fun factor we were looking for with Saryn, and especially not for the other members in Saryn squads.

 

Definitely not a good example. 

In real gameplay, why would you only shoot one bullet if you really want to spread spores?

In the same situation, I'd rather shoot in full-auto with my supra, popping spores on every enemy and leaving 15 spores in total, which provides 15 damage growth per second. Definitely more than 10 per second. 

If there were more enemies around, the growth would get even faster. The scaling was perfected, and now you've ruined that...

I suggest reverting this part of spore changes an everything will be good. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2018-06-01 at 10:50 PM, Raijin83 said:

you don't know how i play but my build isn't working for me? do you even realize what you're typing? obviously you don't. the way i want to play i have issues

does the frame cast lots of skills(even if you don't spam) yes or no? yes. then it's a caster. the rest are irrelevant. she has high hp but low shield so it's balanced in a way. they gave her more defense recently. before that the frame was a caster. just because they gave her higher defense recently it doesn't mean the frame isn't a caster anymore. it's a tankier caster

in the 3rd paragraph you say "Maybe you are running a low range/high strength spec and spam your spores too much instead of relying on range and map wide lash/miasma synergized spread? Spamming spores with a high strength build costs you way too much compared to a lower strength far range build where you pop the spores manually or through miasma." and in the 4th paragraph you say "Not sure why you are getting defensive and straight up rude because someone tries to give you tips. I'm just giving you suggestions on what can be done if you have issues with spread, stacks and decay." how exactly in the 4th paragraph you say you give me tips when you gave me tips in your 3rd paragraph in the same comment? are you messing with my intelligence right now? it's not working. and yes, you are messing with my intelligence. you can't write a comment to someone and in 1 paragraph you say "this is not the right way to build the fence. you have to do this and this and this" and in the next paragraph of the same comment you say "i'm giving you tips as to how to build a fence. you don't have to be rude". it doesn't work that way

Eh what?

I dont know how you play, no that is correct. But you are complaining that the frame isnt working the way you play, so obviously the way you play isnt working. If it was working you wouldnt complain.

I'm also not sure how my paragraph 3 and 4 contradict eachother, that is what you are trying to tell me that they do?

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Eh what?

I dont know how you play, no that is correct. But you are complaining that the frame isnt working the way you play, so obviously the way you play isnt working. If it was working you wouldnt complain. 

I'm also not sure how my paragraph 3 and 4 contradict eachother, that is what you are trying to tell me that they do?

Don't mean to 'butt in here' but you do realise that you're basically just saying 'you're using it wrong' as an excuse for issues which are there for more than just the one person.  We can't all be 'using it wrong' when some of us are using a very similar if not exactly the same build to you....

 

I have to agree with Raijin83 in as much that spore spreading still has issues (ignoring the disappearing stacks issue), especially on low levels.  Take for example a low level map where you want to spread the spores, not just for damage but for the corrosive armour stripping buff it can give, we hit our intended target, it dies straight away because it's weak, this will then spread the spores to the next enemies which then all die instantly too but this time the spores don't spread because they only spread from the very first targeted enemy.   We then look for another enemy to hit to keep our spores up and we have issues with finding them because we're playing a large range, low power build because we've focused on spreading spores...

You've also got situations where you can actually lose your spore spreading if the enemy dies on the spore tick rather than the weapon damage. 

 

Now I'm sure the argument will be that if they're that weak then you don't need to use spores and you're right but a frame shouldn't be just designed for one level of content, in the case of saryn that's higher level content which we don't exactly have much of.  Whenever we get a rework we constantly have 'arguments' with the dev's that frames should have scaling abilities to deal with higher level enemies but when we say saryn has the exact same issue but with lower level enemies people don't seem to want to accept there is an issue.... Now I'm not saying we need to nerf the ability but it does need to cater for low level content, in the same way other frames need to cater to high level content, as well without the need to completely nerf our power strength every time we need to do low level content (pretty often when you think about it). 

 

An easy fix and it's been suggested before is a reduced range spread on death by spore or if they want to go a little more complicated they can have a fall off on range on each enemy that dies, first would be full range, second would be 75%, third 50%, fourth 25% and fifth wouldn't spread it.  Something like that is a fair compromise imo, it allows a small amount of spread on low levels and wouldn't really impact high levels much because the damage is usually kept low on spore builds. 

[Cibyllae]

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Now I'm sure the argument will be that if they're that weak then you don't need to use spores and you're right but a frame shouldn't be just designed for one level of content, in the case of saryn that's higher level content which we don't exactly have much of.

Damage dealers cannot be both good at high level and low level content, you either do enough damage to kill the high levels and one shot the low levels or do enough damage for the lower levels to not get one shot and not do enough damage at the high levels. What you're asking for is impossible.

8 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

An easy fix and it's been suggested before is a reduced range spread on death by spore or if they want to go a little more complicated they can have a fall off on range on each enemy that dies, first would be full range, second would be 75%, third 50%, fourth 25% and fifth wouldn't spread it.  Something like that is a fair compromise imo, it allows a small amount of spread on low levels and wouldn't really impact high levels much because the damage is usually kept low on spore builds. 

An enemy affected by miasma spreads on death.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But you are complaining that the frame isnt working the way you play, so obviously the way you play isnt working. If it was working you wouldnt complan

Exactly

[SneakyErvin]

25 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Don't mean to 'butt in here' but you do realise that you're basically just saying 'you're using it wrong' as an excuse for issues which are there for more than just the one person.  We can't all be 'using it wrong' when some of us are using a very similar if not exactly the same build to you....

 

I have to agree with Raijin83 in as much that spore spreading still has issues (ignoring the disappearing stacks issue), especially on low levels.  Take for example a low level map where you want to spread the spores, not just for damage but for the corrosive armour stripping buff it can give, we hit our intended target, it dies straight away because it's weak, this will then spread the spores to the next enemies which then all die instantly too but this time the spores don't spread because they only spread from the very first targeted enemy.   We then look for another enemy to hit to keep our spores up and we have issues with finding them because we're playing a large range, low power build because we've focused on spreading spores...

You've also got situations where you can actually lose your spore spreading if the enemy dies on the spore tick rather than the weapon damage. 

But why would you wanna spread spores or use them to apply corrosive in a low level mission? The mobs would die long before corrosive made a difference. You have other options to clear the maps instantly. either recast spores as needed or miasma the whole map. You simply dont balance skills in any game around low level content. As it is now she is strong in every type of content no matter the level. If that means having to recast spores a few times in lowbie missions it doesnt matter. She doesnt need the scaling there so recasting has no penalty.

You dont really need to look for enemies on low level missions with Saryn. Just use miasma from time to time and wipe everything within 55m or so.

And the situation you describe is near impossible. How do you manage to lose spore spread through a spore tick killing the enemy? Dont you use lash or miasma to prevent that from happening?

 

 

[LSG501]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why would you wanna spread spores or use them to apply corrosive in a low level mission? The mobs would die long before corrosive made a difference. You have other options to clear the maps instantly. either recast spores as needed or miasma the whole map. You simply dont balance skills in any game around low level content. As it is now she is strong in every type of content no matter the level. If that means having to recast spores a few times in lowbie missions it doesnt matter. She doesnt need the scaling there so recasting has no penalty. 

But you can scale for all levels, they've already done it with oberons smite ability....

 

Quote

You dont really need to look for enemies on low level missions with Saryn. Just use miasma from time to time and wipe everything within 55m or so.

And the situation you describe is near impossible. How do you manage to lose spore spread through a spore tick killing the enemy? Dont you use lash or miasma to prevent that from happening?

 

 

As you said low level content doesn't need to use the other abilities.... it's also additional energy usage to have to use lash when your weapons can kill them easy enough without. 

Also it still doesn't stop the issue bing there, having to use another ability to stop something from happening is poor choices when designing the abilities. 

36 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

An enemy affected by miasma spreads on death.

So to fix an issue with the first ability you're saying to use your 4th and most energy expensive ability.... it's also not what I was actually on about but still...

[Cibyllae]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

But you can scale for all levels, they've already done it with oberons smite ability....

That is because Oberons's smite ability does damage based on a percentage of an enemy's health and shields.

Additionally, the target emits 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 orb projectiles that seek out enemies within 5 / 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 meters from the main target, over a duration of 12 seconds. Each orb deals 75 / 85 / 100 / 150 Radiation damage, plus 15 / 20 / 25 / 35 % of the main target's maximum health and shields divided among the number of orbs; staggers and weakens its enemy target, and has a low chance to cause a Radiation proc.

 

Percentage based damage abilities always scale at every level because it's based on enemy health. Saryn's Spore ability is different than that. It does flat damage which the scales with how many enemies are present at any given moment. The two abilities both scale, but not in similar ways. This difference makes them fundamentally different.

Maybe Pablo should make it so that spores deal a percentage of current health damage which ramps up. (Eg, 5% of current health/shields which ramps up by x% per enemy every second. Capping at at a total of 10 enemies and (10)x%) Basically turning the ramping flat damage into a ramping percentage of current health and shields damage. This would mean doing 35 damage with one spore to an enemy with 700 hp and no armor and doing 5 damage to an enemy with 100 hp and no armor. Instead of doing 25 flat damage to an enemy with 700 hp and no armor and 25 to an enemy with 100 hp and no armor. There are many extraneous things that would have to change on the perimeter of the ability,(E.G spread) but this would make Saryn's spore ability operate in the same fundamental way, damage wise, as Oberon's smite ability. It would also mean as the enemy health decreases, so to would spore damage, it would also mean spores would be unable to kill an enemy which is why I said spread mechanics would have to change. I don't know how, all I know is that they would have to if this damage change came through.

EDIT: The problem with this is having to calculate the current hp of every enemy independently.

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

But you can scale for all levels, they've already done it with oberons smite ability....

So you're right you can scale for levels. I was wrong. Let me rephrase my sentence and say flat damage cannot be both good at high and low level content.

[Raijin83]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Eh what?

I dont know how you play, no that is correct. But you are complaining that the frame isnt working the way you play, so obviously the way you play isnt working. If it was working you wouldnt complain.

I'm also not sure how my paragraph 3 and 4 contradict eachother, that is what you are trying to tell me that they do?

i cried from the laugh. since the frame isn't working the way i want to play it means that the abilities don't work after all these changes for how i want to play. if it was working the way i want to play ofc i wouldn't complain. i'm not that stupid. but since it doesn't work the way i want to play i complain. and i'm not the only one that complains. are you gonna tell me that those of us that complain are wrong and you're the right one? quick tip: you're not

i will say it again in case you understand. in the 3rd paragraph you give me tips, etc, and in the 4th paragraph you say "Not sure why you are getting defensive and straight up rude because someone tries to give you tips" etc. it doesn't work that way. 1) you should have wrote your 3rd paragraph first, 2) i replied to you and i was defensive, etc, 3) then you write your 4th paragraph. you wrote these 2 paragraphs in the same comment which is wrong just to make me look the bad guy or whatever while you never gave me tips before you write the 3rd paragraph so your 4th paragraph contradicts the 3rd

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

So you're right you can scale for levels. I was wrong. Let me rephrase my sentence and say flat damage cannot be both good at high and low level content.

Exactly and this is something some of us have been trying to get across to DE on ALL reworks, flat damage values based off mods isn't good for scaling, it just so happens that on saryn it's on the low end when it's normally on the high end like with say embers wof.. it's great at low end but it doesn't scale for high end because it's a fixed value.