DE, your development process needs a rework.

[NullSaint]

4 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I can understand why people would be hyped about a new frame, or a new game mode or whatever. But why would anyone be hyped about a new quest in Warframe? What are quests in this game anyway? 30 minutes of playtime and some silly sci-fi lore? It's hardly worth holding your breath waiting for that.

Well, I like that stuff, but I agree that getting this excited over anything in a game is a little silly.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I think the point that the OP is trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong, @Blade) is that DE is shooting themselves in the foot by hyping things that are nowhere near ready to release.

It's not that the updates need to be bug-free. No sane person expects any release to be bug-free.

It's that by teasing The Sacrifice out over a YEAR, the hype has built up to the extent that the quest can't possibly live up to expectations.

It creates impatience and frustration for players who subscribe to the hype and fosters apathy among the players who don't.

When The Sacrifice was first announced, I was mildly interested. Warframe has some great story quests, and the next chapter is definitely something I want to play. Today?

Eh.

I could maybe care less, but it would be difficult. I'm mostly waiting to see what other features ship with it (looks like Melee 3.0 MIGHT make it in based off of the attack range shown in the trailer).

It's not that Umbra doesn't matter, but the drawn out cycle of 

soon > wait jk > still workin' > soon > wait jk

has just squashed my interest entirely.

Simply put, it might be a good idea to wait on hyping something until it is mostly finished.

That doesn't mean "don't show it on devstreams." It means "don't show a trailer suggesting something is almost finished when realistically you haven't started."

The same thing happened with TWW; it's not actually THAT bad, and it had some great story reveals, but it got harsher criticism than TSD because the hype built up too much over a long wait.

People assumed "we waited this long; it must be AMAZING."

Another good example being that the Apostasy Prologue has lost a lot of its "oomph" in the months we've been doing pretty much nothing about a fairly serious development.

i.e., if *spoiler* is still ok after being missing for this long, obviously things are not as dire as they might otherwise seem.

[rhoenix]

Bluntly, I don't mind the delays.

Yes, I'm really, really impatient to play Sacrifice.  I really want to see the new UI, too.

Yes, DE has pushed buggy things out before, and yes, they do delay sometimes.  Yes, Sacrifice got delayed, and the whole Umbra thing has been on the wall for a year or three now.

Even with all that said, I'd rather they delay than push something out that's a half-effort.  I'd rather they take the time to put their whole heart into it, to make the update something worthwhile.

Despite delays and bugs sometimes, their track record is pretty good in my book.

[OniDax]

They never should have announced that it was coming this week, only that it would come mid-June. That's enough of a window that them releasing next week would count.

[Gweredith]

47 minutes ago, Blade said:

Everyone remembers the controversy surrounding The Wait War Within, how it was teased in April, teased again as the big reveal for July's Tennocon 2016, and was stated to be released "in and around Tennocon, by Steve via a forum post. Flash forward to November 12th, a weekend release on a Saturday (oof) and the backlash was tremendous.

Since then, DE has made the choice to no longer put any kind of ETA or release date on upcoming content releases, which is completely understandable. However, the problem is they've started using "coming soon" and other variations of the phrase. The reason why this is a problem is because soon often denotes a unit of time much closer than a broad, even far out release date would. It creates an unrealistic amount of hype on our end, and a unhealthy amount of pressure on DE's end.

This issue is arising again with The Sacrifice - a quest that has been in the works for presumably a few months now, and was originally teased almost 11 and a half months ago at Tennocon 2017. DE has again jumped the gun by trying to give a release date/timeline before the update was ready to ship (read, READY TO SHIP, not "close") and as it stands now, they are dangerously toying with the risk of failing to meet said timeline - there's hardly enough time left in this week to get the release out and still have a solid day or two for bug-fixing, unless DE wants to stay over the weekend.

Going forward, I think that it would be beneficial for DE to give themselves more time than they need, to have an INTERNAL RELEASE DATE (read project deadline), and not one that is publicly announced. This way they have the option to work on it at their pace, without the community breathing down their neck as badly as they are right now, and if they ever happen to finish working on a project ahead of the planned deadline, then they can drop it as a pleasant surprise for everyone. 

The moment you drop a teaser on something, the clock starts ticking. The moment you tell someone something is coming soon, they'll start ramping up their expectations to an unrealistic level.

 First of all, your writing skills are astonishing and I quite enjoyed reading this post. All these flamers in the replies are jumping at your throat without even probably having read the whole text. 

 I do agree that deadlines should exist and maybe they even have them, in which case they should probably just be tightened up to be more precise. However, their current deadline is by the end of this week and, us being only halfway through it, I cannot complain about them not following their official schedule, for now. I hate how every large update has to be filled with anxiety and stress over it not being delayed instead of us being fully hyped and excited.

11 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I can understand why people would be hyped about a new frame, or a new game mode or whatever. But why would anyone be hyped about a new quest in Warframe? What are quests in this game anyway? 30 minutes of playtime and some silly sci-fi lore? It's hardly worth holding your breath waiting for that.

Some people actually play games for depth and lore, with a desire to know why they doing what they are doing in the game and the outcome of their actions. There are enough shallow shooter games out there already for those who just want to myopically shoot at anything that moves. Not to mention that quests such as this bring important changes to the overall gameplay.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Gweredith

[Krubie]

They did say "this week" didn't they? The last x major releases have been Thursday or Friday, week's not over yet. Some people acting like they know it's gonna be delayed to next week

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, Gweredith said:

Some people actually play games for depth and lore, with a desire to know why they doing what they are doing in the game and the outcome of their actions. There are enough shallow shooter games out there already for those who just want to myopically shoot at anything that moves. Not to mention that quests such as this bring important changes to the overall gameplay.

I do to. There are many games with a great story, well written quests and good lore. But I do not at all consider Warframe such a game. The quests are not interesting. I am not even remotely invested in the lore, which is just your usual sci-fi drivel, and I don't care at all about any of the characters. It fit neatly into the "shallow but fun shooter" genre for me. If I want story, I'll look elsewhere.

[Alaeacus]

4 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I do to. There are many games with a great story, well written quests and good lore. But I do not at all consider Warframe such a game. The quests are not interesting. I am not even remotely invested in the lore, which is just your usual sci-fi drivel, and I don't care at all about any of the characters. It fit neatly into the "shallow but fun shooter" genre for me. If I want story, I'll look elsewhere.

In my opinion, the worst thing about Warframe quests is when we are controlling our character.  Watching the cinematics, listening to the story, and seeing chapters unfold is GREAT.  Unfortunately, when we are controlling our warframe within each quest, we're either hindered by some sort of cheesy, lame handicap (Harrow ghosts, forced operator mode, or Stalker sword wave spam), or we're grinding for materials that are a pain to gather just to see the next part of the quest (Titania plants, uggggggggghhh).  I just want to see the story unfold, or interact with the story in some non-infuriating way.

Edited June 13, 2018 by AlMcFly

[Gweredith]

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

I do to. There are many games with a great story, well written quests and good lore. But I do not at all consider Warframe such a game. The quests are not interesting. I am not even remotely invested in the lore, which is just your usual sci-fi drivel, and I don't care at all about any of the characters. It fit neatly into the "shallow but fun shooter" genre for me. If I want story, I'll look elsewhere.

It is because of most of us enjoying the Warframe lore that DE started making cinematic quests. 

[Lakais]

I don't really mind. Warframe (and by proxy DE) survives on content patches. Meaning as soon as something is ready to ship, they ship it. So I really don't see them making substantial enough patch material that'd still be valid a few months down the line when they need to get "all hands on deck" with something major like a Cinematic quest or a whole new area/tileset. 

Meaning in the relatively long stretches of time when they can't produce meaty enough content to keep some players in place they need the hype and close communication. I mean, who's to say that they weren't reeaaaaaly close to shipping Sacrifice a month ago but then something broke and they've spent the whole time fixing what broke and what broke because that other thing broke and now they are at a stage where they are even more ready to ship. 

This particular instance is made especially logical with TennoCon at the horizon. They would of had two choices with basically waiting for the paint to dry until the thing is ready to ship. They could of either set the launch back a bit more just for the "heads up" factor and build the hype machine up to ludicrous speeds. But then they would have that much less time to fix the bugs that people WILL find. Or they drag it up onto the wire and basically not even let the paint try before they kick it out the door because they know they'll need more time to fix the bugs. 

Sure they could of pushed the quest back to AFTER TennoCon. But people would start asking questions, and when it eventually gets out that DE has been sitting on this content, all ready to go for over a MONTH. The dumpster fire would be ENORMOUS. 

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, AlMcFly said:

In my opinion, the worst thing about Warframe quests is when we are controlling our character.  Watching the cinematics, listening to the story, and seeing chapters unfold is GREAT.  Unfortunately, when we are controlling our warframe within each quest, we're either hindered by some sort of cheesy, lame handicap (Harrow ghosts, forced operator mode, or Stalker sword wave spam), or we're grinding for materials that are a pain to gather just to see the next part of the quest (Titania plants, uggggggggghhh).  I just want to see the story unfold, or interact with the story in some non-infuriating way.

 

2 minutes ago, Gweredith said:

It is because of most of us enjoying the Warframe lore that DE started making cinematic quests. 

I have no problem with other people enjoying the lore. Some people like one type of music, some likes another. People have different tastes. I enjoy a good game with a good story, but I personally just do not think Warframe has a good story or good lore. I have not found any of the quests enjoyable. Not that they are bad, they are just something to complete quickly and then forget about for me. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

39 minutes ago, Blade said:

The main point I was trying to convey is that this development process must be unhealthy for DE - it puts them into a pretty much year-long crunch time, and crunch time is really good at burning people out.

I think it'd do DE a lot of good if they could set realistic goals within the company, and learn to know when the right and wrong times to hype up their player base are.

I'd personally be curious about how much of these early releases are predicated by Marketing vs the Devs themselves.

They could easily have set the marketing hype to start  another week later or stretched the goodies, etc out for more days if needed.

Knowing that, the idea stated in your OP makes even better sense...Unless Marketing is dictating pace (which can and does happen in companies big and small) in this case.

[ShutUpJade]

16 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The same thing happened with TWW; it's not actually THAT bad, and it had some great story reveals, but it got harsher criticism than TSD because the hype built up too much over a long wait.

THIS

I returned to Warframe after a year or two. I didn't know anything about the new story quests, because the last one I worked on was the Archwing before I left on an extended break. So to get the two-parter of TSD and TWW back to back without a break except a brief one to refamiliarize myself with combat and modding, I felt so confused to the hate that is thrown at TWW. I didn't have to wait for it, it was already there.

Even to a lesser degree, I'll be less disillusioned with Sacrifice as I never saw its original announcement and my only clues to it were finding Apostasy a month too late because I ignored player housing, so when its teaser dropped before E3 with the tea set, my hype started much later than everybody else.

This week, even if it is Friday or Saturday, is very soon compared to how long this has actually been in development because of my more recent return to this game, and thus I will be more likely to be satisfied due to my wait being much shorter than the more aware community at large.

[Lion]

3 minutes ago, Gweredith said:

 First of all, your writing skills are astonishing and I quite enjoyed reading this post. All these flamers in the replies are jumping at your throat without even probably having read the whole text. 

 I do agree that deadlines should exist and maybe they even have them, in which case they should probably just be tightened up to be more precise. However, their current deadline is by the end of this week and, us being only halfway through it, I cannot complain about them not following their official schedule, for now. I hate how every large update has to be filled with anxiety and stress over it not being delayed instead of us being fully hyped and excited.

Some people actually play games for depth and lore, with a desire to know why they doing what they are doing in the game and the outcome of their actions. There are enough shallow shooter games out there already for those who just want to myopically shoot at anything that moves. Not to mention that quests such as this bring important changes to the overall gameplay.

Thank you for the kind words! I agree, I may be calling it a bit too early - it is only Wednesday after all, so it is a bit too soon to say that they will not be able to release this week. That said, I am apprehensive given the history with major content updates being so down to the wire like this.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Did...DE delay it?

I'm wondering where this thread is coming from.

I knowthat it was their BIG E3 annoucement. So unless some major bug hit on crunch day this is news to me.

DE can't win. They delay it due to a bug & threads like this happen. Or they release it all buggy & threads like this happen but with the topic being about the bugs & etc.

[Legion-Shields]

I'm going to hold my breath until DE releases the new quest.

[OniDax]

2 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

I'm going to hold my breath until DE releases the new quest.

What time is the funeral/memorial service? Will you be buried or cremated? Will it be a private service or is the entire community invited?

Edited June 13, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, Blade said:

Something that can realistically meet the proposed 1 week ETA, which this update is looking like it won't be able to do.

What are you basing your expectations of release on?  If the company, that none of us work for and thus none of us are privvy to the inside info on, says they're ready to ship...why would we doubt them?

[Roll__Fizzlebeef]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Did...DE delay it?

I'm wondering where this thread is coming from.

I knowthat it was their BIG E3 annoucement. So unless some major bug hit on crunch day this is news to me.

DE can't win. They delay it due to a bug & threads like this happen. Or they release it all buggy & threads like this happen but with the topic being about the bugs & etc.

Not really. DE said "this week." Since that apparently isn't the first two or three days of the week, people think it's delayed for some reason like it's absolutely broken. It could come out tomorrow or Friday and it is still "this week." People just have no patience and always assume the worst. It'll release when its mostly ready.

[Autongnosis]

il y a une heure, rune_me a dit :

I can understand why people would be hyped about a new frame, or a new game mode or whatever. But why would anyone be hyped about a new quest in Warframe? What are quests in this game anyway? 30 minutes of playtime and some silly sci-fi lore? It's hardly worth holding your breath waiting for that.

I for one wait for quests more than anything else in this game. I am very invested in this "silly scifi lore". 

I am more excited about The Sacrifice than i ever was about the new Landscapes, Sanctuary Onslaught, Raids, and any other major playable content drop. 

After The Second Dream and The War Within i've become incredibly attatched to the quest line.

For example i did a 3-days full immersion session to replay every main story quest from The Second Dream onwards. Just to be ready. 

All of that said though doesn't mean that i can't bear waiting another day or whatever. I appreciate them giving a release window monday, but to be honest i'm not out of my mind enough to start pressuring the staff on a forum to make it happen faster. 

I think the silly thing is people giving doom speeches before even half of the release window has passed... 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Autongnosis

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

This is so badly needed. We're on the cusp of having them blow a deadline they gave themselves publically and at the GODDAMN E3 of all places. Has DE never heard of deadlines? Timetables? Maybe not making promises they know they can't keep. The whole Sacrifice thing has been a slow burn disaster.

Why not end it that way too?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Has an update ever been released on a Wednesday? Was is realistic to expect it yesterday, today, or even tomorrow? What if it was "ready to ship" but some showstopper appeared out of nowhere? What exactly do you know of DE's development process besides the public bits?

This is a big issue I find on these forums. People make far too many assumptions about what DE does or doesn't know about their own game or dev process.   Imagine going in and telling a chef, before you even get your food, what the "proper temperatures" to cook it at are, or how to make a proper rue, etc.   It makes no sense.  Why would you assume they don't know how to do their job or are doing it incorrectly?  It's only Wednesday and people are already condemning DE to failure.  I really don't understand the logic here.

People get overhyped all on their own.  DE has only ever shared the process with us so we saw how the quest and mechanics were unfolding, and moreso to get feedback before making certain changes.  They've not constantly said "It'll be out Monday!" and changed it 4000 times.  I see no signs, either, that they're suffering undue stress. Work is work.  It's never going to be easy, and that's fine, because they're creating what they want to create, so....I just don't know where we get off thinking we need to, or even have the right to, micro-manage DE.   Note to the OP, this isn't entirely directed at you, either.  Just a broader message that this topic got me thinking on.  It's just an overall attitude that permeates these forums and I really don't get it.

[Hypernaut1]

You guys are hyping yourselves up. This is just a "i want it now" tantrum.

Developer hype to me is saying "this will be the greatest quest ever!!! You'll never want to play another gane again!"

DE telling us they're working on a pretty cool quest that they hope to release ASAP is not hype. It's your own personal anticipation (and inevitable disappointment) that over hypes it. 

DE simply talks about what they're doing. If you can't handle that, then don't follow Dev streams. Hysteria likes this makes them want to be more secretive and makes it worse for us that DO have patience and realistic expectations

Edited June 13, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)vl_Monarch_lv said:

This is so badly needed. We're on the cusp of having them blow a deadline they gave themselves publically and at the GODDAMN E3 of all places. Has DE never heard of deadlines? Timetables? Maybe not making promises they know they can't keep. The whole Sacrifice thing has been a slow burn disaster.

Why not end it that way too?

In what way has it been a disaster?  If I say we're going to have lunch this week...and I don't call you for lunch by Tuesday.....how did I break my promise?  How are our plans going "down in flames"?  Overdramatic much?

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You guys are hyping yourselves up. This is just a "i want it now" tantrum.

Developer hype to me is saying "this will be the greatest quest ever!!! You'll never want to play another gane again!"

DE telling us they're working on a pretty cool quest that they hope to release ASAP is not hype. It's your own personal anticipation (and inevitable disappointment) that over hypes it. 

DE simply talks about what they're doing. If you can't handle that, then don't follow Dev streams. Hysteria likes this makes them want to be more secretive and makes it worse for us that DO have patience and realistic expectations

Thank. You.