Cheat Engine, permabans, and my solution to the problem

[Fallen_Echo]

You know guys i would agree with you on this matter if there would be a clear line what explicitly says that Cheat engine is forbidden here and running it results in permaban but because such thing doesnt exist im gonna side with OP here.

As far as i understand it, its useless for warframe so this technically feels like getting arrested for owning legal firearms because you might want to shoot people with it.

[Nykerios]

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Doesn't the launcher throw a fit if CE is running?

Not sure, I don't want to risk being 2035'd to find out

Edit: I've been told it does not.

Edited July 2, 2018 by --Q--Stryker

[peterc3]

6 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You know guys i would agree with you on this matter if there would be a clear line what explicitly says that Cheat engine is forbidden here and running it results in permaban but because such thing doesnt exist im gonna side with OP here.

As far as i understand it, its useless for warframe so this technically feels like getting arrested for owning legal firearms because you might want to shoot people with it.

"f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience;"

"h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;"

The game's EULA.

Edited July 2, 2018 by peterc3

[Tsukinoki]

6 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Doesn't the launcher throw a fit if CE is running?

Last I knew it did.
If you start up the game while CE is running the launcher prevents it from launching with an error message saying that a cheat program was detected.
If you start up CE after logging into your account that is when the auto-bans come into play.

[Modeaus]

I rent two houses from two different landlords.
The second one is no dogs allowed. 
I have a dog in the first one. He's a good boy.
The land lord from the second property comes around.
He looks through my windows. Opens my door, walks in.
He sees I have a dog. 
He kicks me out of my second house.  

 

Or even simpler: It's like getting a speeding ticket simply because you own a fast car. 

Would you be happy with this scenario? I sure as hell wouldn't. If DE are snooping around, looking in my memory, opening my files, looking for my dogs, I'm not happy at all. If I bring my dog into the place he's not allowed that's one thing but a ban simply for owning one is taking the piss. Not only that but it's a law suit waiting to happen if anyone catches their software snooping where it shouldn't be.  

 

I don't use CheatEngine but I sure as hell can do what ever I want with my PC and my software and it's BS if DE are banning because they snooped and saw something they didn't like. On the other hand if they're actively catching people modifying WF with a cheat app that's fair play. You agreed to the EULA, you need to accept your bans.

[CorerMaximus]

2 hours ago, VadiseReikaz said:

Q Voltage gave a solution to that at the start of the thread. A warning popup on first offense, then the permaban on the next one. That way the whole "But I didnt know it wasnt allowed" thing cant be brought up and they have to deal with it.

 

2 hours ago, --Q--Stryker said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you've spent $2 or $200, it's YOUR responsibility to not open a known cheat software while playing games with anti-cheats.

We cannot because there isn't much to fix outside of a warning pop-up like others have stated.

Alright, that's a fair point, but that's why I've created this thread- so people can give their own suggestions on how to Cheat Engine can be handled and bring attention to this issue. 

I should clarify- I'm not saying allow people to hack their way into Warframe- God no. If someone is actually injecting a hacking tool into Warframe- hell, permaban them, I'm completely onboard with that. Instead- I'm arguing that if someone has Cheat Engine running in the background and is using it to hack away on another app or is simply letting it run idle- don't permaban those folks. I get what you're saying- this is DE's game, and DE can run any law they want; but what I'm trying to do here is discuss the law and why I think its wrong, and my solution to changing that law.

This is a bit crude, but for a comparison, let's imagine the cases of suspected Witchcraft a few centuries back. It was the law and people obeyed and followed through with burning people at the stakes if they were as much as suspected of being a witch if they owned certain things or behaved in certain ways- but over time, discussion helped showcase how it was wrong and gradually change that law. I'm trying to do the same thing here- people here are classified as witches if they simply own or are running Cheat Engine and are immediately burned at the stakes (permabanned)- I think this is unfair and crude, and am trying to fix this by change this- and to that end, discuss the current problem, my solution to the problem, and open the grounds up to other people's take on this. Just because something is the law doesn't mean its right.

[CorerMaximus]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

"f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience;"

"h. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines”, or otherwise collects information from, within or through the Software or Service, including without limitation, any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Software to store information about a character, in-game items or the Software environment; provided, however, that Digital Extremes may, in its sole discretion, allow the use of specified third party user interfaces;"

The game's EULA.

f. You said it, not me. I'm using a cheat software, but its not even remotely used to alter Warframe. Simply having Cheat Engine running in the background won't "modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience".

h. This seems a bit vague if one is to poke into it (it can be argued it is deliberately so to cover a broader range of topics)- while Cheat Engine does do so- shouldn't it be only so if people are actually modifying Warframe instead of other games? Imagine I have a computer for instance, I can use it to do illegal things, but should simply owning it levy me to being tried for crimes it might do so? 

[Tsukinoki]

17 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

Instead- I'm arguing that if someone has Cheat Engine running in the background and is using it to hack away on another app or is simply letting it run idle- don't permaban those folks

And the problem with this is: How can DE tell for sure?
It can be quite hard to tell if someone is modifying the ram of a program unless you expect them to start up another watchdog program which would hurt performance of the game as not only would they be running the game, they would have to be running a separate program that would watch the ram that the game is using and making sure that its not touched by an outside program.
This is not a quick or efficient task.

Basically you're asking for DE to potentially hurt the performance of the game for everyone so that you can run CE and warframe at the same time.

You should be able to see why that's a bit of an extreme ask.

And if you're wondering "But how would it hurt performance?"  its because having something double check and verify the contents of the games memory, as well as anything that accesses the games memory, continually throughout the entire runtime of the program would increase ram requirements quite a bit and would also use up the processor.
There are DRM programs that do something similar, albeit at a smaller scale than what you're asking for, and they can harm the performance of the game quite a bit as well.

So in the end the question comes down to "Is it worth it?"
And I really don't think it is.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Tsukinoki

[CorerMaximus]

12 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

 And the problem with this is: How can DE tell for sure?
 It can be quite hard to tell if someone is modifying the ram of a program unless you expect them to start up another watchdog program which would hurt performance of the game as not only would they be running the game, they would have to be running a separate program that would watch the ram that the game is using and making sure that its not touched by an outside program.
 This is not a quick or efficient task.

 Basically you're asking for DE to potentially hurt the performance of the game for everyone so that you can run CE and warframe at the same time.

 You should be able to see why that's a bit of an extreme ask.

 And if you're wondering "But how would it hurt performance?"  its because having something double check and verify the contents of the games memory, as well as anything that accesses the games memory, continually throughout the entire runtime of the program would increase ram requirements quite a bit and would also use up the processor.
 There are DRM programs that do something similar, albeit at a smaller scale than what you're asking for, and they can harm the performance of the game quite a bit as well.

 So in the end the question comes down to "Is it worth it?"
 And I really don't think it is.

I'm not a game developer so don't know how they would implement it, if at all possible; nor do I know the performance impact something like this would have if implemented in whatever form it would take. Until Digital Extremes goes ahead and tells us the actual cost to both themselves and us as end players though, I believe it'd be a bit preemtive to say this is going to hurt performance, but as an end player who has been affected by the current implementation of anticheat, I want DE to look into it and see this matter discussed in some capacity.

To clarify- you don't have to either disagree or agree with me as to whether Cheat Engine should be allowed to run in the background in any capacity whatsoever- we don't have the information to know what form the solution will take or the impact it will have. Rather, do you want to see this issue discussed on a larger scale and have DE look into it all?

Edited July 2, 2018 by CorerMaximus

[peterc3]

12 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

I'm not a game developer so don't know how they would implement it, if at all possible; nor do I know the performance impact something like this would have if implemented in whatever form it would take. Until Digital Extremes goes ahead and tells us the actual cost to both themselves and us as end players though, I believe it'd be a bit preemtive to say this is going to hurt performance, but as an end player who has been affected by the current implementation of anticheat, I want DE to look into it and see this matter discussed in some capacity.

To clarify- you don't have to either disagree or agree with me as to whether Cheat Engine should be allowed to run in the background in any capacity whatsoever- we don't have the information to know what form the solution will take or the impact it will have. Rather, do you want to see this issue discussed on a larger scale and have DE look into it all?

Still not sure how you are starting Warframe with CE running.

[VadiseReikaz]

14 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

Rather, do you want to see this issue discussed on a larger scale and have DE look into it all?

No, I rather things stay the way they are. They are good as they are.

[Babellon]

I had a client called infinity running on some gta5 offline one day and forgot to disable it and shut it down before going online, got banned almost instantly and had my account reset. It happens man. I love to run engines in offline games as much because I like to just experience the story or game world as a whole without all the built in "challenge" mechanics, like figure eight sights and cone trajectory, but we have to remember to turn them off when we go online. I and I'm sure you to fully support the premise of fair play and cheating in online games is a huge problem for the industry. I do sympathize with your plight though. 

[Alaeacus]

I think you're being a bit misleading.  Some Cheat Engines also have programs that allow you to create macros, which are almost always against the TOS, and a bannable offense, in online games.  Some can also attempt to pull extra data metrics that aren't part of what DE necessarily want shared or used by the player.  DE can't possibly account for which Cheat Engines violate TOS and which don't, so punishing all who use is only fair.  Just don't use them, there is no good reason to (other than "I'm too lazy to turn it off").

P.S. Also, no decently-sized online game is 100% server dependent.  There is always at least something sitting on the client side.  Anything on the client side can be hacked via CE, which in itself is basis enough to not allow any CE.  

Edited July 2, 2018 by AlMcFly

[Furyion]

4 hours ago, --Q--Stryker said:

So........ it's rude that you have to pay attention to what you have running on your own PC and not DE? That makes so much sense. /s

You clearly know cheating in any form is wrong and you do it you pay the price. I am all for all permabans for any cheating/ exploiting .Be smart play smart.

[IggySnow]

iv launched warframe before while cheat engine was running because I forgot to close it after I was done with my previous game, and when I did the warframe launcher wouldn't let me start the game until I closed it.

so unless that changed I don't see why this is a problem.

[Furyion]

hardware bans are a better solution. Keeps the problem solved. Cheaters .script kids ..Mentality thinking  cheating is a reward if not caught .. Well upgrade the risk , hardware bans with a perma ban plus ip block and remove availability to change email addy . Beat that challenge then qq when caught ..

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

While I agree that cheating isn't right but I do also agree that the detection maybe should be a bit more specific in sense that it detects cheating that affects the game itself rather than for something else. In some cases cheats are used for silly fun, however here it's an obvious no-go.

Reminds me of the situation with GTAO where the anti-cheat system went haywire and was banning people left and right, those who deserved it and those who didn't.

[Vox_Preliator]

3 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Last I knew it did.
If you start up the game while CE is running the launcher prevents it from launching with an error message saying that a cheat program was detected.
If you start up CE after logging into your account that is when the auto-bans come into play.

It didn't just now when I tested it.  I remember forgetting to close it one time after I was playing something else and getting a "HEY DONT DO THAT" screen on the Launcher, but just now I launched CE and then the launcher, and didn't get any sort of warning.  I'm not willing to see what happens if I hit Play with it running, though.

That's... not good.  Opening CE while Warframe is running should absolutely be instabannable, because there is really very little excuse one could have for doing that.  Forgetting to close it is another thing, I'm not sure when the warning was removed, but there absolutely needs to be that warning.

[Alaeacus]

4 hours ago, CorerMaximus said:

Can we move forward from whose fault it is to discussing how we can fix it? 

There is nothing to "Fix".  The rules are pretty clear.  Abide by them or not, that's your choice.  

4 hours ago, CorerMaximus said:

discuss ways in which Digital Extremes can also change the way things are handled so that other players, who may not know Cheat Engine is a permaban worthy tool or who do so but launch it anyways by mistake, don't lose their accounts please? 

Please.  Anyone who is electronically savvy enough to know what Cheat Engine is, knows it is NEVER allowed during online play of any game.  Those notices are posted ALL OVER every website where you can download a Cheat Engine.  If a person is so reckless that they are running such advanced programs in the background, and do not know they are doing so, than maybe they shouldn't be allowed to operate a computer without some supervision. 

That's not a DE problem, that's a poor parenting problem.  

[CorerMaximus]

I guess I'm a bit disappointed with the way this discussion is heading- instead discussing the current stance on guilty until proven innocent stance the game has on Cheat Engine, the discussion here has been reduced to almost everyone arguing that people either shouldn't be using Cheat Engine at all, make assumptions on what a solution would look like and assume the worst and disregard the idea entirely, or assume everyone using Cheat Engine is a cheater while detailing their view in a rude and condescending way.

I don't feel like talking more about this- I'm not sure if its because the barrage of people disagreeing with me feels like I'm climbing a mountain to get my point across, or because I can't stand the negativity and ignorance being thrown around. You know, I used to think the way you guys did too- "DE says no to this software? Oh, they must be right, yeah, obey the rules"- but let a piece of software you're running for a completely different application unknowingly result in an account permaban for you and maybe, you will see the point I'm trying to make. Perhaps then, you'll think differently about simply running some software that can't affect Warframe having the months and years of your work vanish away. While I was given the opportunity to continue playing, I know many others who didn't have the same luxury as me and this thread was for them, and the countless others who will go through the same thing. 

Until then, I'm through- I think I'm done trying to argue my point. That, and I think I know what people are going to reply with next if this thread was anything to go by. I'm going ahead and reporting this thread for closure; until I meet you folks again, good day and goodluck.

Edited July 2, 2018 by CorerMaximus

[Arniox]

I don't know why you launch it at all? Like... What do you even use it for? Why hack, ever, at all? 

It takes the fun out of any game, even single player games with speed running. And on top of that, why even speed run? It's not really that fun. You remove all fun and replace it with overly competitiveness. 

[CorerMaximus]

2 minutes ago, Arniox said:

I don't know why you launch it at all? Like... What do you even use it for? Why hack, ever, at all? 

It takes the fun out of any game, even single player games with speed running. And on top of that, why even speed run? It's not really that fun. You remove all fun and replace it with overly competitiveness. 

Please take a moment to read my original post.

Edited July 2, 2018 by CorerMaximus

[Court_Joker]

You had a cheat engine running while a game was playing. Any decent anti-cheat would ban you. This is one of the worst complaints I've seen about auto-banning imo

[Marvelous_A]

Does CE even work on Warframe?

[Court_Joker]

Just now, Marvelous_A said:

Does CE even work on Warframe?

I would assume it could be used to datamine client-side