Ship battles to be the new raids? Looks good if so!

[Loza03]

From what it seems, Ship battles seem to be the new raids. What with systems requiring multiple players and all. However, they succeed where trials failed: Instead of complex, non-combat tasks that feel boring and basic, it's instead much more elegant, at least from a game design standpoint (it must have been a NIGHTMARE to put together). Manage multiple battles at the same time to complete an objective. We saw the first glimpses - gun operation, fighting intruders, archwing and capital ship destruction. Most likely, we'll have options to be able to switch more freely to assist to further manage the battle. Larger ships will probably require more in-depth on-board destruction and have larger fleets of support ships, necessitating Tenno to most likely have to take checkpoints where we can head back out to assist, and in to continue attacking.

There will be at least four roles to manage. 'Captain' who pilots the ship and coordinates, managing ship resources. On-board support, managing boarders, manning turrets and repairing the interceptor. Archwing, the primary anti-fighter Tenno, serving to manage enemy fighters more freely, and the away Party, who are on board the enemy ship.. And I don't think we've seen the whole interceptor, so there might be more. There's almost certainly going to be interplay - any Tenno can most likely man any segment of the ship, so the 'captain' role can probably change hands if needed or be spread out over multiple people. Like pilot and the support roles. We know that on-board ship Tenno can assist Archwing Tenno and Away party Tenno already, so expect more of that. I'm guessing that there will be further interplay. I envision Archwing Tenno helping repairs from the outside and preventing enemies from attacking the Away Party from the outside. Additionally, whilst the Away party is clearly the most occupied, I'm guessing we'll be able to man turrets on board the enemy ship as well.

But the best part? It's not exclusionary. Sure, multiplayer will be necessary, but it starts at a much lower level! You can hop into a ship with randos, or with a friend, and get used to the Combat with attacks like we saw from Tennocon. Then, you can slooowly work your way up the pecking order. Larger ships, maybe raids on active defense grid sections. Then, the dark sectors. The Railjack missions. You know how this works from smaller raids, and you put together a larger, more co-ordinated team to enact the real deal, the big job. Maybe you aren't ready, but it won't feel as overwhelming because you're jumping into something you've already caught the basics of. Raiding will be integrated into the mechanics, whilst still being open for something entirely new.

Bravo DE. Bravo. If you can pull this off? You'll be even greater masterminds in my book.

Edit: Rewatching the Trailer, and Ordis mentions Engineering. So, yeah, quite possible that'll be a thing.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Loza03
Addition.

[xcenic]

they make a show of the content. i think i saw 3 people on ship. Also i saw only one people assaulting the other ship. So my little intellect tell me that whit 3-4 people you maybe can do this thing. 

Question.

Did you saw the same show as me?

Do you know raid include 8 people?

simple question kuddo 

[(XBOX)SupremeMorph]

I think my ideal crew would be helm, weapons, engineering, away. But, yeah, as someone who plays elite dangerous alongside warframe, seeing the two come together like this... it's beautiful

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, xcenic said:

they make a show of the content. i think i saw 3 people on ship. Also i saw only one people assaulting the other ship. So my little intellect tell me that whit 3-4 people you maybe can do this thing. 

Question.

Did you saw the same show as me?

Do you know raid include 8 people?

simple question kuddo 

Yes I saw the same show as you. The show where they tease dark sectors aftewards

Yes I know trials required 8 people. But this isn't trials is it, this is something else which may be their way of adding the concept of raids back in. Possibly needing fewer people. Possibly there will be different ships.

Simple questions, simple answers.

[Dark-Tidings]

Also, didn't DE Steve say something about upgrading you're ship while when the game play started? Because that will be truly awesome. It does seem that it will be the next update after Fortuna, as it had its own title, and if they added it at the same time(Kinda Like the Tridolons, as the ), the Content drop would be insane. Although I never really got into raids, this will definitely be something worth getting into. The Only thing that sucks is the wait, as who knows when DE will be able to Release these things, though I'm predicting around the same time POE was released, and anything sooner will make me happy.

[(PSN)KrokodiIian]

Play 4 hours of railjack, get 400 endo, a forma bp and an ammo drum. 

[FoxyKabam]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)HERMAN_JELMET said:

Play 4 hours of railjack, get 400 endo, a forma bp and an ammo drum. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

It depends on your idea of what a "nightmare" is. Steve was concepting this and doing rudimentary prototyping back when he was doing "Sunday streams" on his own time that he shared with viewers his own development. He first thought maybe it would be more dark sector revamp related (and honestly it still could branch out as such). With the release of PoE and the steady technical advancements (like Onslaught) which will also still be refined in Venus; with a full team I honestly don't think it was any more difficult than what is already on their plate.

With that said they could make it more "trial-like" maybe 2-3 Sigma ships split between some number of players accomplishing different tasks. With "seamless" space-ship combat to archwing to planet-side (or larger ships) could make for more dynamic "raids". Though I think the more limiting factor is fitting things into a more manageable time frame of playtime but the technical tools are getting up there for some creative stuff.

Though I am going to leave this warning that I foresee that people are going to grow to hate the ship combat especially if they are going to be left alone to guard ships while others are off doing actual Warframe stuff.

[DzeraDragonbane]

Although let's be honest, Railjack are what raids should have been. Never even played the raids because when I saw the gameplay it was just not fun for me and when I gave it a chance, I was right.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Certainly looks like Raid 2.0 (or whatever number this would be).

I'd hope for a larger crew than 3, so the captain doesn't have to stop piloting to deal with boarding parties, and the ship is left without a gunner or someone to deal with boarding parties and fires, etc:

* Captain/Pilot
* Engineer (uses the console behind the captain to deal with repairs, shields, power distribution, hijacking enemy computers to assist infiltration)
* 2 gunners (Port, Starboard, and captain gets a gun too)
* 4 "security team" members
* 4 "away team" per ship (and multiple ships, potentially).
* I'd hope we could also have a wing of archwing-ers to escort the ship and aid in much faster combat around the ship (and maybe enact repairs and fend off boarding party ships before they intercept us. This could be a shared duty of the security team.

(but that's bigger than any previous raid, I'm thinking, so unlikely, but possible)

 

The big ship *seemed* to move way too sluggishly to maneuver and avoid damage, which felt awkward and cringy to watch... compared to a warframe, or even archwing's dashing (I say "seemed", because they could have been taking it slow just to let us see everything and avoid system crashes if the code was unstable). I hope the ship upgrades include engines, and they get some "space parkour" corkscrew spins and stuff to avoid damage and deal damage at the same time.

The "BIG GUN" attack at the end REALLY needed to be more impressive (felt anti-climactic for the build-up and special station and targeting and charging sequence) even though the results were the capital ship blowing up.

The big spikey oversized "landing gear", for a ship that doesn't land, seems tailor made for some special purpose that we haven't seen yet (and not just there for looks) likely for the following expansion if I were designing what I think is to come.

I'd like to see these things (and orbiters) dock at Clan Dojos.

I also hope there will be "solo"able smaller scale missions with these things, maybe with Spectre/Spoilers's manning the guns 🙂

 

[Oreades]

3 hours ago, xcenic said:

they make a show of the content. i think i saw 3 people on ship. Also i saw only one people assaulting the other ship. So my little intellect tell me that whit 3-4 people you maybe can do this thing. 

Question.

Did you saw the same show as me?

Do you know raid include 8 people?

simple question kuddo 

All raids required was one person who knew the developer puzzles and a few people to act as paperweights.....

[Leland_Gaunt]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)HERMAN_JELMET:

Play 4 hours of railjack, get 400 endo, a forma bp and an ammo drum. 

That sounds pretty accurate.

[Marvelous_A]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HERMAN_JELMET said:

Play 4 hours of railjack, get 400 endo, a forma bp and an ammo drum. 

Yes that's the question I thought. With this complexity it has to come with good rewards potentially better then tridolons (coz it's more difficult ad requires more cooperation right). But I think it will just ruin the already unstable balance even more.

TBH I think any kind of raid that required extensive amount of cooperation will just don't work in this game. Warframe has always been a "co-op" game being played by 4 solo players. The door that needs 2 players to open is the most co-op thing we have in this game. The old raid tried to break this situation and died a horrible death. I hope communication with text is the level of co-op required in this game mode.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (PS4)HERMAN_JELMET said:

Play 4 hours of railjack, get 400 endo, a forma bp and an ammo drum. 

Man, I wish four hours of gameplay would drop such a legendarily rare mod.

2 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

It depends on your idea of what a "nightmare" is. Steve was concepting this and doing rudimentary prototyping back when he was doing "Sunday streams" on his own time that he shared with viewers his own development. He first thought maybe it would be more dark sector revamp related (and honestly it still could branch out as such). With the release of PoE and the steady technical advancements (like Onslaught) which will also still be refined in Venus; with a full team I honestly don't think it was any more difficult than what is already on their plate.

With that said they could make it more "trial-like" maybe 2-3 Sigma ships split between some number of players accomplishing different tasks. With "seamless" space-ship combat to archwing to planet-side (or larger ships) could make for more dynamic "raids". Though I think the more limiting factor is fitting things into a more manageable time frame of playtime but the technical tools are getting up there for some creative stuff.

Though I am going to leave this warning that I foresee that people are going to grow to hate the ship combat especially if they are going to be left alone to guard ships while others are off doing actual Warframe stuff.

Well, I was pretty much assuming that 'actually making games work right is hard'. Making a (mostly) seamless battle in two different ships with three gameplay styles all running at once seems like it would have been a real pain in the ass to get working. Although I didn't check in on those sunday streams, so I guess I missed that. Still, major props. Come to think of it, skywing seems to have been done in prep for this. Integrating archwing and ground combat properly.

I think what could make it more 'trial like' would also help with the possible ship combat hate problem. Fortunately since there's a lot of stuff to do, I don't foresee people hating it for having nothing to do, since repelling, manning the guns, and hacking the enemy means that there's still stuff to do on the ship I foresee them hating it for it being repetitive with the raid just being a bigger version of the capital ship. My hope is that there's a good variety of things to attack, and be attacked by, each requiring somewhat different tactics and combinations of roles. As I suggested, maybe we can raid one of those grid segments? That might involve totally different requirements. Maybe a Corpus troop transport, where the Tenno going onto the ship have to split between doing the sabotage and stopping the enemy from pursuing. Hell, since we're in space with fewer defences against other factions, maybe the Grineer and Sentients could stick their toes in. That could make things interesting.

The Raid could basically be a big solar rail conflict where an 8-tenno group boards the Railjack (there's space on there, at least in the short term.), and then has to split into teams. The away team, of course, would be a part, but some people have to man the ship, manning turrets needed, supporting the away team and supporting the away group with Archwing support. Although, yes, the idea of multiple Railjacks would also work, and turn the whole thing up to eleven. Especially if we could board each others Railjacks freely, since we're on the same team. You could have one crew with only a hacker aboard whilst the rest are away calling to the more active ship or arch-pilots that they're being attacked and need help. 

Honestly, this whole thing has so much potential... which also admittedly means potential to go wrong, yes. But hey, I'm trying to be an Optimist here.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Certainly looks like Raid 2.0 (or whatever number this would be).

I'd hope for a larger crew than 3, so the captain doesn't have to stop piloting to deal with boarding parties, and the ship is left without a gunner or someone to deal with boarding parties and fires, etc:

* Captain/Pilot
* Engineer (uses the console behind the captain to deal with repairs, shields, power distribution, hijacking enemy computers to assist infiltration)
* 2 gunners (Port, Starboard, and captain gets a gun too)
* 4 "security team" members
* 4 "away team" per ship (and multiple ships, potentially).
* I'd hope we could also have a wing of archwing-ers to escort the ship and aid in much faster combat around the ship (and maybe enact repairs and fend off boarding party ships before they intercept us. This could be a shared duty of the security team.

(but that's bigger than any previous raid, I'm thinking, so unlikely, but possible)

 

The big ship *seemed* to move way too sluggishly to maneuver and avoid damage, which felt awkward and cringy to watch... compared to a warframe, or even archwing's dashing (I say "seemed", because they could have been taking it slow just to let us see everything and avoid system crashes if the code was unstable). I hope the ship upgrades include engines, and they get some "space parkour" corkscrew spins and stuff to avoid damage and deal damage at the same time.

The "BIG GUN" attack at the end REALLY needed to be more impressive (felt anti-climactic for the build-up and special station and targeting and charging sequence) even though the results were the capital ship blowing up.

The big spikey oversized "landing gear", for a ship that doesn't land, seems tailor made for some special purpose that we haven't seen yet (and not just there for looks) likely for the following expansion if I were designing what I think is to come.

I'd like to see these things (and orbiters) dock at Clan Dojos.

I also hope there will be "solo"able smaller scale missions with these things, maybe with Spectre/Spoilers's manning the guns 🙂

 

Certainly I agree in that I hope we'll be able to bring a good number of 'troops'. By my estimate, up to eight people can fit on that ship. Two in the cockpit, two on the guns, two on repairs and two on standby for Archwing. Of course, those roles may change in battle. And maybe, just maybe, we can have more than one Tenno ship out at a time. That's relatively unlikely, at least for standard missions, but a Tenno can dream, right? I mean, that's our Modus Operandi.

Jokes aside, I agree the ship seemed sluggish. Although I doubt a ship of that size is spinning anytime soon (that's the Archwing's job), the acceleration and/or top speed definitely needs a boost. All else aside, even our heavy kit is still supposed to be lighter and more nimble overall. Look at Rhino! He's clearly not designed to be dodging gunfire in universe, being a big beefy meat shield and all, but they still kept the functionality. I also agree the Big Gun needs a boost. Either more lasers, or a bigger laser. Or both. Both is good.

The landing gear seemed more like a stabiliser for atmospheric flight. Which doesn't explain why they tucked away when we went FTL. Which, by the way, was an AWESOME sequence. Such a huge engine. Honestly, I think the reason it's called the Railjack isn't because it's meant to attack solar rails, but because it seems to have a mini solar rail in it for less restrictive travel. It does beg the question though: Will we be able to go places with this? So many questions. Not that I'm upset.

Lastly, I hope there'll be other series of ships. Small single-Tenno craft would be excellent for solo. Less powerful, but more durable craft that allow single-operative missions. Not ideal, but they can work if that one Operative is good enough. And of course, the opposite. It'd be AMAZING to see a larger craft. If we can get more Tenno in missions at once, a ship similar in scale to the one you presented would make for one hell of a Raid.

Make it so, Number One!

[Loza03]

Something new I noticed on rewatch.

Arsenal, Foundry, Mod Bench and Sentinel are all there.

Are we gonna be able to launch other missions from these bad boys?

[Noir_CZ]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Something new I noticed on rewatch.

Arsenal, Foundry, Mod Bench and Sentinel are all there.

Are we gonna be able to launch other missions from these bad boys?

That might be for the people who join randomly, so they can re-equip? Dunno. It all looked awesome, but as a mostly solo player lit left me worried.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, Noir_CZ said:

That might be for the people who join randomly, so they can re-equip? Dunno. It all looked awesome, but as a mostly solo player lit left me worried.

Said this a few times, but hoping for variable classes of Railjack.

Either way, I'm also mostly solo, but this is something I'd be a lot more confident doing multiplayer. Partly because I can get used to it with my in-game friends before I jump in with randoms so I don't make a fool of myself. Even though I've done something like this in the past.

[JDxBarracka]

2 man raid??

I am pretty sure its still a 4 man co-op play.

From the vid it does't look puggable as you would have to *shudder* communicate nor does it seem solo-able 

[Loza03]

Just now, JDxBarracka said:

2 man raid??

I am pretty sure its still a 4 man co-op play.

From the vid it does't look puggable as you would have to *shudder* communicate nor does it seem solo-able 

Well, I assume that the actual raids, if they happen,  will require more people...

 

Who am I kidding this is Warframe, someone will figure out how to solo.

[Noir_CZ]

14 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Well, I assume that the actual raids, if they happen,  will require more people...

 

Who am I kidding this is Warframe, someone will figure out how to solo.

What about the last part of the enemy ship boarding? You would have to get inside yourself. sabotage it. Then - if allowed- leave the ship to board your own ship back again to use its guns to destroy the enemy ship? It really seemed like 2 people at least is mandatory.

[Loza03]

50 minutes ago, Noir_CZ said:

What about the last part of the enemy ship boarding? You would have to get inside yourself. sabotage it. Then - if allowed- leave the ship to board your own ship back again to use its guns to destroy the enemy ship? It really seemed like 2 people at least is mandatory.

They thought Teralyst would require a full team.

I expect only the craziest of shenaniganry from this community.

Although, yes, I suppose most people, including myself, would need at least two. Good thing I have a buddy who's just as excited as I am. But I see where this might cause some problems. I hope they'll provide some form of solution. 

[Valaska]

WE STAR CITIZEN NOW!

[Noir_CZ]

40 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

They thought Teralyst would require a full team.

I expect only the craziest of shenaniganry from this community.

Although, yes, I suppose most people, including myself, would need at least two. Good thing I have a buddy who's just as excited as I am. But I see where this might cause some problems. I hope they'll provide some form of solution. 

Eh as long as people in public grouping won't be A******s about me taking longer time in rushing through enemy ship, or shooting down enemy fighters it could be ok... but we know people... then again, warframe has one of the nicer communities.

[Lakais]

Raids? Eeeh. No, I don't think so. I mean, if you listened to what Steve said that these railjacks would be Tenno run Rails to "darks parts of the solar system". You don't need a Phd to put together that these are about a MUCH older system and piece of content people have been consistently asking for updates and changes for. 

I'll spell it out:

DARK SECTORS

To be fair, what was shown didn't seem to include a PvP aspect which is what people wanted back for Dark Sectors. Those younglings who don't remember, clans and alliances (yes, the later exist) could fight over a Dark Sector node in a PvP fight and then the winner would deploy their Solar Rail that allowed everyone access to that node. Anyone could join the fight in a sort of Invasion style choice to attack or defend. The rewards for participating was paid fully by the side you were fighting for. In the PvE stage, the owner of the rail could set a percentage tax to any player in that node for the resources and credits they earned. The problem with this was that PvP was the 1.0 variant so NOT balanced in any way, shape or form. Secondly was that declaring attack on a Rail was a click-war based on a cooldown timer since the last battle. People with the fastest net, closer to the servers and click-macros had the advantage. 

It was a mess. A fun mess, but a mess. Not to mention the way the missions are set up and where they go make no sense on a logical lore sense. Why do you need a solar rail to go to a spot on a planet you are already orbiting around, in a space ship that basically has a warp-drive?