(XBOX)Grihaly Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) Let me first reiterate; I love this game. But I hate the lore. I used to be fascinated by the lore, or lack thereof, but when that curveball called "the second dream" happened, I lost interest, for awhile anyway. I know Steve wanted to subvert expectations of the Tenno, and that I respect, even though I found it ridiculous. I even started coming around to it, over time, the war within was pretty great. But then it started taking a turn for the worse, the apostasy prologue... That glorified cutscene was cliché, but I still wanted to get Lotus back. Admittedly because glitchy fake Lotus is debatably worse than Ordis. And then the sacrifice. Oh. Boy. It started out interesting and then it just becomes flat out generic Hollywood garbage. Lotus leaves us, now she betrays us, then we're going to Tau to most likely fight her. At this point I just hope I get kill her and end this ridiculous plot. If you're gonna start unique, stay unique. It went from something I and many others hated because of the direction, and maybe I'm alone in this, haven't heard too many opinions on the sacrifice, to hating it because now it's just the same wall with different paint. Edited July 8, 2018 by (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NullSaint Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I think you might have just missed some things before. We have always been operators piloting our suits. That has never changed. And not sure what contradictions or retcons happened in Sacrifice. Also, we don't know that we're going to Tau, and we don't know that she's betrayed us, or that we will kill her. Lotus--from the beginning--was a sentient and was sent to Sol to kill all the tenno. She betrayed Hunhow and saved us. She is in love with Ballas, and he with her, so it's not totally surprising that she has left with him and taken his body with her. I can't understand why anyone would hate it, and I think it is still quite unique. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qamyha Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) I completely disagree. Gameplay elements aside, I have never found any of the plot elements to be cliche, derivative, or unoriginal. PS. What lore contradictions are you referring to? Edited July 8, 2018 by Qamyha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: (I'll explain what I mean further if needed) Enlighten us, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanescent Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Please drop us some of those perceived retcons and contradictions. To my knowledge the only things that've been retconned and contradicted are headcanons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Qamyha said: I completely disagree. Gameplay elements aside, I have never found any of the plot elements to be cliche, derivative, or unoriginal. PS. What lore contradictions are you referring to? The Warframes, we always knew they were infested, now we know they were people who were intentionally infested and went mad. And then immediately Umbra is this new unique frame... That was also exposed to the infestation but retains memory? It makes no sense, and contradicts the established lore. How is this one so special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Umbra was the prototype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeithanDiniem Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: The Warframes, we always knew they were infested, now we know they were people who were intentionally infested and went mad. And then immediately Umbra is this new unique frame... That was also exposed to the infestation but retains memory? It makes no sense, and contradicts the established lore. How is this one so special? Umbra was a unique case where the infected person was specifically punished using a custom strain of Helminth, specifically stated in the dialog of the quest, to allow him to relive that memory. We also know that the frames already retain memory, so no, that is not new. The difference is that this frame was made to specifically retain his individuality so he could live the torment of killing his son for the duration of his existence. It was nothing more than a punishment. It contradicts nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted July 8, 2018 Author Share Posted July 8, 2018 Ok then. I like how that's the only thing people are acknowledging... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OniDax Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, NullSaint said: I think you might have just missed some things before. We have always been operators piloting our suits. That has never changed. And not sure what contradictions or retcons happened in Sacrifice. Also, we don't know that we're going to Tau, and we don't know that she's betrayed us, or that we will kill her. Lotus--from the beginning--was a sentient and was sent to Sol to kill all the tenno. She betrayed Hunhow and saved us. She is in love with Ballas, and he with her, so it's not totally surprising that she has left with him and taken his body with her. I can't understand why anyone would hate it, and I think it is still quite unique. But that's just me. The Lotus-is-Sentient lore didn't come until the Natah quest. Before that, datamined lore just revealed she was an Orokin AI who directed the Tenno to destroy the Orokin for the sake of balance. 1 hour ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: Let me first reiterate; I love this game. But I hate the lore. I used to be fascinated by the lore, or lack thereof, but when that curveball called "the second dream" happened, I lost interest, for awhile anyway. I know Steve wanted to subvert expectations of the Tenno, and that I respect, even though I found it ridiculous. I even started coming around to it, over time, the war within was pretty great. But then it started taking a turn for the worse, the apostasy prologue... That glorified cutscene was cliché, but I still wanted to get Lotus back. Admittedly because glitchy fake Lotus is debatably worse than Ordis. And then the sacrifice. Oh. Boy. It started out interesting, and then after contradicting and possible retcons to the lore of Warframes (I'll explain what I mean further if needed) it just becomes flat out generic Hollywood garbage. Lotus leaves us, now she betrays us, then we're going to Tau to most likely fight her. At this point I just hope I get kill her and end this ridiculous plot. If you're gonna start unique, stay unique. It went from something I and many others hated because of the direction, and maybe I'm alone in this, haven't heard too many opinions on the sacrifice, to hating it because now it's just the same wall with different paint. Umbra isn't a contradiction. It's actually an attempt to return to the old lore, which was that the warframes were crafted around the Tenno themselves. Since TSD decided that the Tenno wouldn't actually be in the Warframes, but would be separate, the Warframes are now crafted around others. So that fits. Edited July 8, 2018 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) There were very few details in your first post about what you believe to be the problem, you said "I'll explain what I mean further if needed", and the only thing you've explained so far is that you think Umbra is problematic, so of course that's all people are responding to. What else do you think is problematic? We really don't know enough about The Lotus and how she came to be The Lotus instead of Natah. How did she infiltrate the Orokin/Tenno in the first place? Why did the Tenno accept her? Why did she betray the sentients? For that matter, why did the Tenno betray the Orokin? What is her link to Margulis? How does Ballas factor in? Why and how did her form apparently change as it did? Why was she keeping balance between factions? What was she doing all that time we were asleep after the old war? Why did she start waking the Tenno up? What are her motives? What problem were the Orokin facing that they were desperate to colonise another system? Until we have answers for some of these questions, it's difficult to interpret her latest actions. Edited July 8, 2018 by schilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fadingtheory Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: Ok then. I like how that's the only thing people are acknowledging... What else do you want acknowledged? That seems to be the only concrete thing you brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyjokes Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: Ok then. I like how that's the only thing people are acknowledging... What to you mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeithanDiniem Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: Ok then. I like how that's the only thing people are acknowledging... It was the only one you brought up, so finish your presentation of the contradictions and maybe we will bring it up. We dont know what you personally believe is or is not being contradicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, schilds said: Umbra was the prototype. Umbra was a punishment. 10 minutes ago, (XB1)GrizzOfDarkness said: Ok then. I like how that's the only thing people are acknowledging... You didn't bother to understand the lore and were aggressive in your ignorance. Why would anyone engage you otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fadingtheory Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, schilds said: We really don't know enough about The Lotus and how she came to be The Lotus instead of Natah. How did she infiltrate the Orokin/Tenno in the first place? Why did the Tenno accept her? Why did she betray the sentients? For that matter, why did the Tenno betray the Orokin? What is her link to Margulis? How does Ballas factor in? Why and how did her form apparently change as it did? Until we have answers for some of these questions, it's difficult to interpret her latest actions. It's heavily implied that Natah/Lotus adopted the Tenno because she's sterile, but she wants children. Adopting the void children allowed her to defeat the Orokin and gain what appears to be functionally immortal, perpetual young sons and daughters. Her link to Margulis seems limited to a respect and fondness for her, since they both did the same thing - became adopted mothers. For the Tenno's part, I'd imagine they accepted the Lotus because they wanted a motherly figure after Margulis died. They betrayed the Orokin probably because they recognized them for the cancer they were. The Operator has a remark or two on the Orokin, and none of it's very friendly. Edited July 8, 2018 by fadingtheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)teacup775 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 23 minutes ago, schilds said: Umbra was the prototype. As above, a punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeithanDiniem Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, fadingtheory said: It's heavily implied that Natah/Lotus adopted the Tenno because she's sterile, but she wants children. Adopting the void children allowed her to defeat the Orokin and gain what appears to be functionally immortal, perpetual young sons and daughters. Her link to Margulis seems limited to a respect and fondness for her, since they both did the same thing - became adopted mothers. For the Tenno's part, I'd imagine they accepted the Lotus because they wanted a motherly figure after Margulis died. They betrayed the Orokin probably because they recognized them for the cancer they were. The Operator has a remark or two on the Orokin, and none of it's very friendly. Natah's sentient fragments were Mimics as we saw in the quest, meaning that Lotus would also have that ability, so she mimic'd Margulis to take her appearance so as to have something to use against the Tenno to help build their trust, but what if it also meant she mimic'd the feelings Margulis had for the Tenno and over time it grew? Thats my idea of it so far at least. We'll have to see. Edited July 8, 2018 by NeithanDiniem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said: Natah's sentient fragments were Mimics as we saw in the quest, meaning that Lotus would also have that ability, so she mimic'd Margulis to take her appearance so as to have something to use against the Tenno to help build their trust, but what if it also meant she mimic'd the feelings Margulis had for the Tenno and over time it grew? Thats my idea of it so far at least. We'll have to see. If we apply the concept of Chekov's Gun to a further degree based on what we've seen, Continuity is usable by the Orokin. There is also the Jade Light. We have lots of pieces without clear borders, so we can't know what fits where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Excalibur Umbra, specifically, was a punishment, but the first batch of warframes could all act independently, were at first believed to have kept their sanity despite being infested, and apparently also turned on the Orokin (like everything else :-P). I guess the question is whether "Umbra" refers to just one specific warframe, or a version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeithanDiniem Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, peterc3 said: If we apply the concept of Chekov's Gun to a further degree based on what we've seen, Continuity is usable by the Orokin. There is also the Jade Light. We have lots of pieces without clear borders, so we can't know what fits where. Well we do have confirmation by Ballas that Margulis was killed, so Im guessing the Jade light was in fact the thing that killed her, again by Ballas's dialog. If her mind was saved, Id think that Ballas would not have stated she was dead, because a mind could be saved with what he has available in the game. So we know a few of the borders. Edited July 8, 2018 by NeithanDiniem edit for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unus Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said: Natah's sentient fragments were Mimics as we saw in the quest, meaning that Lotus would also have that ability, so she mimic'd Margulis to take her appearance so as to have something to use against the Tenno to help build their trust, but what if it also meant she mimic'd the feelings Margulis had for the Tenno and over time it grew? Thats my idea of it so far at least. We'll have to see. Just to add onto the detail, do you recall the Void Medium's conversation with the Lotus? She actually says that the Tenno shaped her into a surrogate mother passively. It was inevitable she would use the "Void demons" to kill the Orokin, but, in the process, it seems her Void weakening allowed "us" to prey on her maternal needs and make her "ours". If the Lotus has been a legitimate mind-slave to the Tenno for all these years in an unhealthy psionically-crafted dependency relationship. . . phew, talk about a novel turnabout. Edited July 8, 2018 by Unus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said: Well we do have confirmation by Ballas that Margulis was killed, so Im guessing the Jade light was in fact the thing that killed her, again by Ballas's dialog. If her mind was saved, Id think that Ballas would not have stated she was dead, because a mind could be saved with what he has available in the game. So we know a few of the borders. Does Ballas know everything or does he just assume so? Is Ballas a reliable narrator? What, exactly, is the Jade Light? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeithanDiniem Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 1 minute ago, peterc3 said: Does Ballas know everything or does he just assume so? Is Ballas a reliable narrator? What, exactly, is the Jade Light? The Jade Light is just a method of effectively vaporizing a target, likely not that different from our healing smoke or our capture beam, only less lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teloch Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 @(XB1)GrizzOfDarkness Well, DE can't make everyone happy, and I'm in the same (presumably) boat of distaste to this space light novel plot as well. Although, my salt was long dispensed through the holes in the suspension of disbelief tank, and currently, the only thought that visits me while playing WF is... "Who we gonna kill?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts