0_The_F00l

So yes , in the scenario where the void is not present the only thing that goes back is a derelict ship. That is one possible scenario and gameover on arrival. Which i feel is a likely possibility , but that's just one possible scenario. Another possible scenario is that the void does allow travel but it reduces the means of transference (same as when the heart was damaged) That also severely cripples the ability of tenno and frames (also likely). And finally the Void allows full functionality and literally "bleeds" into the old world , in which case it would be reasonable to think there can be void storms created , and all the modifiers that apply to regular missions also apply here. Including the ability of enemy forces to gain resilience as time goes on ,i.e. enemies gain levels , yes? we will go with this scenario. Any specters would need resources that will be used up over time , they would also not be as resilient or intelligent with a penchant to end up dead soon. Adding dispensary to every frame? sure , that could work if you really want to do that. But you need energy to cast it in the first place if you get causght at just the wrong time , then no more energy and no more abilities. Could probably take care of that with zenurilk free cast or energy siphon (if you can survive long enough), so yes that is one possible way to maintain self sustain. I concede on that point :) Hmm , yes the rail jack could move between regions relatively quickly i suppose. But since it doesnt have any extractors of its own , it will not be able to obtain any resources it cant smash in space. And barring titanium most of the resources needed are things we "scavenge" from caches and there would be no chance of getting these things. There is also the question of fuel. If the rail jack has fuel intake it needs fuel , usually provided from a dry dock. So where will you get compatible fuel from that can power the necessary functions? so no , railjack will be pretty useless in the past. Just as an EV will be pretty useless without a charging station. The reliquary drive is like the engine , but a craft is more than an engine. Gas chamber with deadlocks and non visual sensors (pressure , temperature , trip wires ) with persistent toxin supply and magnets thrown in for good measure :P, I really though that was a sentinel , we do have a number of those. Wouldn't be alone? *looks at Topic title* you sure about that bud? you also lack the ability to make an automated army , unless you want to create sentient beings. you would also need to be actively in those frames to use them cause spectres shoot everything that is not part of their faction and i have a distinct feeling that "friendly fire" will be on with very high possibility of collateral damage, or are you saying you will give some other people transferrence ability (thats bound to go smoothly)? or spend your whole time in a hospital healing the sick and the needy - gonna be spending a long long time doing that? in which case the scenario is not one tenno vs the world , its one tenno assisting the world. In which case i will just manipulate you though a motherly figure into doing things that i want you to do. Not like that hasnt before :P that is a back that is just waiting to be stabbed. There is also no clem , you are alone with no one to talk to other than the mad cephalon and an infected room. Alone means alone , if you make alliances then the scenario has failed.

I may or may not watch the stream , I usually make it a point to be on top of the updates and devstreams but the recent ones have been ... A bit ... Lacking ? The twitch drops are just a bonus that don't really have that big of an impact on the game.

*flexing with all stalker weapons while smoking body ephemera gives off envious smoke* Do you even edgelord bro ? I can understand the fomo , but i can't help but feel a little bit good that i can have a full stalker loadout soon (maybe if the stats align just right) that is actually strong.

*nom nom nom*

Ding ding ding , we have a winner. Our entire discussion is based on conjecture, You assume certain things are true , i assume certain other things are true , neither of us is technically right ,nor can we be wrong. So keep that in mind , i base my assumptions of the reality of our universe and certain laws of physics , you prefer to base it on the reality of the game that is based on hoodoo space magic. We cannot actually debate until we define the parameters of the universe (which is already full of many many plotholes) , thats why i am catching you in your own words as they themselves lack logical consistence. Moving on to the rest of what you said, Narrow? i am being on point , you are being too vague on the capabilities of Tenno , on one side you say the tenno is adaptable but also say that they cant make a basic incendiary device? it was less about the bomb and more about the capability of our orbiter to create things which it is not used to. If you cannot create a consistent logical basis then you can come up with any reason that may not actually be possible, anything you dont like is "only for gameplay simplification" and anything you do like is "canon and possible even across dimensions" get a bit more consistent with your own statements please. Plus There are plenty of bombs in the game , so that statement is also false. Ammo in game universe only comes as secondary ammo , primary ammo and heavy ammo does not get mutated, so it is possible to have ammo that cannot be mutated, What gurantee exists that the ammo in the old world will be compatible for mutation? there is none there is actually very less chance as the old ammo was mostly lead and metal . We dont know what are the conditions for mutation to be successful. Just because you never see any usage of resources does not mean they dont happen. They can be handled , but low chance does not mean no chance , probability and numbers come into picture here. 1 % chance if there are more than 100 units is still a viable chance each time you engage. As i said , they only need to get lucky once. It would not exist because it isn't discovered yet or as per eternalism it is a universe where the void has not manifested in the way we know. It may exist but can the tenno actually harness it ? Unknown , you assume it will be i assume it will not be after we make the jump. And if , if void energy does exist dont you think the people of the planet can also exploit it? A very good sniper. If you can time travel i can have a sniper with eagle eyes and extremely sharp intuitions. One is more likely than the other too.Fully stocked does not mean you can have everything at once. you will still be limited by what options are available. I would love to do an actual simulation ,lets say , you pick any waframe loadout combo and i will pick a suitable response that can disable it then we can argue about if it would be something possible or not. there is no way that they will be dropped in the world with no nano tech or sentient existing yet , your assumption again is wishful thinking based on conjecture. My point remains that any resources that sustain the tenno may not exist on which you base the resiliency of the frames. We need plenty of things , its just not in your face all the time most of it is handled by ordis , lotus and helminth that take what they need over time, probably not shown in your supply and managed through different channels, The missions themselves could be payment of resources needed to sustain themselves. If we were completely self reliant we wouldn't need to do missions in the first place just create a colony of orbiters to act as a sanctuary. Nor would The orokin need to colonise other planets and star systems. So no, there is no "perfect terrarium" that can sustain itself without external input indefinitely you will need resources over time. Intent is important , psychology plays a virtal role in defeating your enemies or manipulating them into breaking themselves, If your core purpose is to cause destruction wherever you go , you bet your ass you will always be wanted by every single agency in the world with no time to rest. If your intention is to covertly take out the man on the throne , you might achieve it temporarily , you will then have another person on the throne and nothing really changes. If you want yourself to be on the throne (or in its shadow) then you will have to setup a loyal administration , commit time away from your warframes , and ocassionally be in public. Any of these could be used against you in multiple ways of sabotage and if you chose to share your tech then it could also be used against you. Not to mention the warframes might be able to bear physical attacks but our tenno are not immune to "EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!" and have been in the past easily manipulated by many entities, SO that is why intent matters , Intent that is not yet clear. You are the one that said you are using archwings to teleport , you wanna use archwings to cover short distances? sure go ahead waste of resources and more likely to get spotted if you ask me , And that is where again intent comes in the picture you can absolutely be in a continuous combat situation . oh yeah , archwings totally need resources , they just dont show up cause it would get in the middle of gameplay :P ordis just keeps a separate budget for it and buys grokdul and fish oil stocked for a few runs. You are assuming the opponent would be equally dead rocked , underestimating your enemies shows exactly the flaw in your tactics :P. Pride comes before the fall after all. we have a gunship the size of a human foot? what now? when did that happen? do you mean the sentinels? or the robo cleaner units? so confused , Or do you mean the railjack? The Railjack would be pretty useless , as there are no solar rails to jack into. And as i have repeated mltiple times the tenno can cause a lot of chaos but it cannot do so indefinitely , and there is no way a single being (no matter how powerful) , can bring new order without some sort of an administration to back them.

I have a theory that the sacrifice arc was supposed to be stalkers story closure , And instead of tying things nicely , DE just went "nah , can't have closures , just make a standalone arc and call it a synonym of shadow , umbra sounds alright" It really really irks me that it is such an obvious obscuring. I mean , look at stalker , that is Excalibur with a custom helmet and fashion, Now look at umbra , that is also Excalibur with a custom helmet and fashion. You can replace every instance of umbra with stalker and the story still makes sense , even more so than what we have with just umbra or just stalker.

This is your reminder as you had requested. Please feel free to tip your notifier.

Barro might bring it in one of his arrivals. There may be repeat of some rewards in the next nightwave as well.

Yes

I will hold you to this , cause this statement invalidates the ability of a lot of things which you describe. Didn't you say we cant make anything you cant already make in game? so if you cant make bombs you cant make argon crystals either (not that it makes sense in the first place to make a crystal that doesnt really participate in chemical reactions). It also raises the concern of how the extractors will "extract"your resources (if they can actually find it?) will there be a swarm of megalomaniac bots that extracts people teeth for calcium ? Which also means you cant make any of the resources which you find as drops. and so you will over time run out of resources. so either your previous statement or this statement is false , pick one , cant have it both ways. And i am saying that is not true , all threats are a threat , death by rock pelting or death by incineration or death by continuous EMP bombardment is still death. you are only one tenno (that cant even make bombs), the human population is legion. Some can repair, but can they do so if the void energy does not exist, which you have not yet answered? if your "operator" appears on the field and gets shot in the head by a sniper each time they appear, how long do you think your frame will last? you seem to not get the point i am making , no matter how many times you repair your single frame , it will wear down over time as you will keep losing resources until it is in a state that it can no longer function. Fancy mechanics which don't exist at this time, so no energy or health orbs for you. So no abilities that can be used as frequently as you want. So your frames are more like deadpool or wolverine in a sense. Are you getting what i am saying? They are powerful sure , but they are not something that can take on an entire planet without their powers. Clearly , by your very first statement , the orbiter is limited in what it can produce , so you will need someone else to make many things for you so yes you will need actual factories to feed things to your orbiter , and a single tenno is unlikely to make that happen. And you cant take factories with you on the orbiter , they need to stay grounded. And Yeah , why did your tenno go back in time and what are they actually trying to do ? haven't really answered that either yet have you? World domination ? silent vigilantism? creating a council of low and understanding? Making a shawzin band ? maybe they did turn retarded depending on what they want , you never know what time traveling will do to your head. Last time something like this happened we lost all our tenno powers and were 20 years older :P , or were we ? maybe we just went catatonic , in which our mind made up things we heard in a story book? And Aren't you trying to cover large distances as soon as possible? so you will probably want to fly above cover , unless you want to crash into everything or fly slow enough to be targeted by ground fire. Your choice is targeted by fighter crafts or targeted by ground troops. And again , Archwing launchers cost resources you cant make. So running out of more resources the more you exert yourself. You will eventually run dry and the last warframe will fall and then your ship will be out of power , then the planet may either push you into the sun, let the orbiter be your eternal prison or put you through more experiments.

Time to pull out by scalpel. Insertion tactics depend on stealth -_- , otherwise its an invasion. This is also where you are contradicting yourself we are not talking about conventional tools as warframes are not conventional by any sense of the word . We will have to draw a line as to what is "gameplay limitation and what is possible in universe limitation" anything either of us debates before then is only conjecture between two people about their opinions (fun as it may be). The use of choppers and boats is a good example though , they have certain capacity , they can carry payloads and personnel, have a specific range up to which they can travel before refueling and they need a proper place to be at not just anywhere will do unless you want to risk potential damage either by collision or by arms fire. Also What is a bomb? Anything that is designed to explode and cause damage in its immediate vicinity. Anything can be a bomb if you have the resoucres , and clearly you are of the opinion that the tenno would have the resources, right? cant run something as large as the orbiter without a few things that can go boom. Cant have all those shiny lights running without something that makes a spark. The landing craft is more than capable of dropping a bomb conventional or otherwise. Thats like your opinion man , the only active instance we have of cloaking is in railjacks , and that is shortlived and the enemy becomes aware of you if you start shooting them. And remember the part about drawing the line between gameplay and in universe limitation? here's another instance of the same. Not to mention the Orbiter is capable of interplanatery traversal because of solar rails , rails which don't exist in this day and age , so yes , you may actually get screwed cause you cant actually go anywhere without it. One of the reasons why i think it would not go as you think. The void is unexplained and infinite , it is whatever you expect/dont expect it to be. You are also assuming the heart comes and the void can manifest before it was discovered, whats the basis of this assumption? And what makes you think the other tenno would allow you to take the one thing that gives them their power to be taken from them? Extractors ? the drones you send to the planets? assuming they give back more than they themselves cost to upkeep? possibly , but they also have the potential to be damaged and destroyed , and i don't know if you can buy more BP from the market of the past :P, it is definitely possible to replenish part of the stock and manufacture some of it in the foundry , but if you always run the risk of losing your extractors thats a difficult position to maintain. Conventional ammo? You could probably make , but what about non conventional ones? what about things that need resources from jupiter? no solar rails remember? no nitain , no argon crystals. no cryotic , no weird mushroom things either. again you seem to underestimate how easy it is to exploit or recycle natural resources without a steady supply of raw material. And that was the point i was making , you will eventually run out or spares , resources and energy, the more you exert energy the faster you will drain your limited resources with very limited means to replensih it The only way you could possibly survive is by forming a partnership with those that might be able to . What do you mean by the worst threat and only important threat? every threat is a treat , S#&$ can go either way in a conflict. Ever hear of David and Goliath? , goliath may be a giant , but there are many many many davids and they just need to get lucky once with their slingshot. And speed bumps can cause quite some problems over tie if you dont watch out for them. Warframes are not invincible despite being very resilient. and a string enough force could take them down , that why they work overtly , not in direct conflict. Warframes do not repair though void power alone the operators do , the helminth room takes care of the "maintenance" of the frames and biological functions. It just never comes up cause it is not relevant to gameplay , but there is a very clear dialogue about it and the helminth does need to be fed to be functional. Again doesnt come up much in game but is absolutely there in universe. And , we dont know how well the void power will function if at all. Which leads me to another very obvious issue which i forgot to highlight. Where will you get energy (or health ) orbs? for many of the frames to function it is necessary , and last time i checked you dont get energy orbs by slicing open people. So yes , there is absolutely a way to run out of resources for your frame to function. Thats not a base , thats a camp. Whether or not it can be found is subject to the tenacity of the ones looking for it over time it will be found if you keep heading for it and all the air traffic control says that they are seeing anomalous movements in the region. Another point of in gameplay vs in universe possibility. Good thing you arent invading during 40K i guess :P cause you wouldnt be lasting long. Teleport over short distances? assuming you plan to use someone like nova/ash/loki for such things , do note that you cant switch between frames as you cant teleport back to command and again , no idea how you will gain energy to do so or how you plan to cross continents as warframes cant swim :P Arch wings are absolutely going to be picked up on a radar and shot down as soon as possible, you cant even fly on the plains of eidolon without being shot down every few seconds forget about traversing large distances with A2A or S2A missiles following you everywhere.,

Lets keep the hypothetical time squeeze limited else we will not even be having this discussion. It is absolutely a plot hole , if the landing craft can actually be that stealthy it could just drop a bomb on top of the objective. No need for warframes in the first place. If it can pick us up anywhere , it should be able to pick us up ANYWHERE , but it doesnt. There are arbitrary pre defined places to do so. I have not seen the landing craft use a cloak yet , maybe i missed it , do share if that has ever happened. Because energy is never unlimited and neither are resoources , you would consume energy over time and you would need to replenish it as well you would consume resources and would need a means to obtain them. Hence my very first point was about logistics being the actual challenge. The very first breach into the void was for the exact purpose to gain energy. So there absolutely is a reason to consider fuel , nothing on your ship would work if you used it all and never had a means to replenish it. It matters , if you are going to rob a bank you will have police after you , if you are going to try and rob a weapon grade uranium cache (i know its just for emphasis) you will have the military after you , if you try to gain access to the nuclear launch codes you will have multiple countries after you and would rather destroy the base than let you get away with it. The response needs to justify the threat level. Even with conventional methods , the warframe can still be damaged , the grineer use conventional weapons and can still be a sufficient threat in enough numbers. If you run out of resources to repair them you are not going to do much. A base of operations which can be sabotaged , are you not getting what i am saying here? Invaders can win if there is assurance of re reinforcements and supply of resource to subjugate the populace , but if they only have an attacking force with no further means of administering the conquered region they will not be able to do much. You also overestimate the ability of a single warframe to traverse the world by itself when it is always wanted.

you really want to get into the potential practical problems with how we are currently dropped and picked up by the landing craft? Sure lets go , Warframes are dropped in areas which for some reason have no surveillance with a very obvious point of entry / infiltration - unlikely to be happening in real world scenarios unless they are dropped miles and miles and miles away, ideally the point of entry and exit should be the same , but for some unforeseen logic , you can pick up the warframe a few meters from the objective but you cant drop the warframe there? Stupid on multiple levels, outside of a video game. And so i refute your point that they are dropped in deadzone , they are dropped in plot holes. Warframes extract within LoS of enemy encampments , with a pre defined loading dock with enough space and time for warframes to stop and get on slowly and steadily - unlikely to be the case in real world scenarios unless , again, the warframes run for miles and miles to a location where someone has created landing ports , during which time they may again , be picked by surveillance or intercepted by different security team, There is also no mention of the actual fuel being used (just void magic?) to transfer the warframes, if it does take conventional fuel then you will need to maintain a line of fuel to work (which could be sabotaged) or if you depend on the void , well tough luck , ain't no void heart here. Which will actually not even let you use any warframes in the first place , so conventional fuel it is , which is not going to be unlimited. In space it is relatively easy to cloak and move at high speeds (no air , no obstacles) in atmosphere the ships would be followed by persistent sonic booms , air current shifts and visual confirmations from different people. You are kinda going on a slippery slope on the whole scorched earth approach, it all boils down to purpose and intention. Why would a tenno be in the past , and towards what agenda would they be moving towards that they need to infiltrate anything?based on the answer there may be multiple approaches to it including scorched earth or nuclear if the threat is dire enough.

Ignoring everything else i said are you , *tsk tsk* not a good way to have a discussion. So tell me, does a warframe jump onto a moving landing craft , or is it stationery for some time , enough time for some heavy ordinance , tracking beacon , or disrupting emp to be used if one is either very lucky or very prepared ? We are talking about the entire bulk of the planet after all and with time better tactics will be developed to counter the incursions. Vor might use advanced tech , but sufficient brute force will also get the job done.

The orbiter is void cloaked , it does not "sit in the void" , it also needs to be disengaged while moving at any discernable speeds. The landing craft traverses real space during entry and exit even if the orbiter itself is cloaked. A Landing craft got shot down by vor once ,It is not outside the scope of possibility that it can happen again. Then you are down one landing craft and one warframe stuck on earth that is exposed to the elements and possible artillery , small and heavy arms fire with no exit. The landing craft if reverse engineered could act as a Trojan horse at best (think judgement day) or give coordinates to the actual orbiter and some understanding of the tech at worst.

More range is point for point more likely to be disruptive than power strength or duration or even efficiency , I have had this discussion before with others , Duration scales linearly , Efficiency has a cap , And Strength tends to give diminishing results the more you stack on , But Range on the other hand tends to rise by a power of 2 (area) or 3 (volume) so it's easier to get out of hand. Many abilities also can hit through obstacles and between tilesets. It has the greatest potential to #*!% things up. Would i love if my Equinox could cover the entire map ? Yes , but i can see how it could also be much more overpowered above a certain threshold (it already screws some things during a fissure where i gain a range boost).

Baruuk is a monk with acceptance ,tolerance , restraint and retribution while being tempered with practicality as the pillars of his school. It Accepts violence done towards them as long as you can bear it , Tolerance to actions of those around you that do not harm you , Restraining those that can harm you and those around you , And retribution for those that can not be restrained , tolerated or accepted. All this needs to be tempered with the wisdom of knowing what to do when. It is really not complicated. Please donate to my mindfulness school on your way out.

I know more incarnon weapons will be made available. I don't think they have shared a list though.

I would indeed prefer if the incarnon forms maintain the identity of the weapons and then add some interesting gimmicks to it, Torid and Atomos are definitely the ones that stand out the most , but even the latron and strun are not that far back - they turn into something that was never the main reason players liked that weapon. I think the lato , Dual toxocyst and Boltor incarnon forms are on point on what they should be, improvements with gimmicks that enhance the existing style not change it completely. But with that said , i am still enjoying the strun and torid in its regular form , i am not forced to go into incarnon mode and the stats boosts make it better than what it was. Is it a tad bit off putting ? yes , i would prefer the strun had a similar mechanic to lato , and the torid worked more like the proboscis cernos.

Now , all that remains is the sibear incarnon. Then my Chill Bro Frost will have reached perfection. Prisma lenz + frostbite arcane , Epitaph + shiver arcane , Sibear + whatever it's incarnon will be , Frost prime with biting frost augment , We shall bring upon a new age of ice and snow globes.

A single tenno ? Hah , no, the problem wouldn't be the ability to cause chaos and destruction for short term , the problem would be logistics on the long term. Let's not forget that the frames require maintenance, maintenance requires resources , resources which may not exist at that time and if frames started killing the populace they wouldn't magically start replenishing your existing stock. You would also run out of ammo quickly , limiting yourself to melee until they too become less effective over time. Your warframes would also need to return to the ship allowing limited tracking , with potential of shooting some nukes at you during entry or exit. You will definitely be a force of great power , but against an entire planet , you may be outpaced in your ability to execute operations. You will absolutely need the backing of atleast part of the planet that shared your ambitions and has the resources to support you for this to be fruitful. No , i don't make these plans in my head and then debate with myself to check their viability everyday , that would make be crazy.

I believe their intentions are pretty simple. Make sure that new and old weapons can both be sold to justify dev time and investments made while keeping the player base sufficiently engaged. It inherently does need a spiral of waxing and waning of weapons to ensure this happens. I totally expect more changes to make the current meta obsolete and a different meta to take its place as time goes on. This is primarily the reason we have so much power creep. I am hoping we get a full stat squish soon.

I meant outside the lore of the game. As in we were supposed to get the same story as sacrifice but with stalker instead of umbra, just replace every instance of umbra with stalker in cinematics /gameplay and everything makes a lot more sense within the lore , considering how stalker simply disappears after sacrifice i expect umbra was supposed to be closure for stalker but DE being allergic to story closure just made umbra instead.

I have a sinking feeling that stalker was supposed to be umbra , And someone at DE just went , nah , make him excalibur.

They are definitely weighted , as already mentioned above, But there also seems to be a repeat mitigation of sorts ? If you pick the unowned item it usually doesn't appear again for some time. It may just be my bias cause i don't have enough of a sample.