Titania: The Dead Horse, Warning: text wall imminent

[Birdframe_Prime]

So, I'm generally in favour of just about everything.

Two points to add, though.

Good news? They're removing collision damage. That's going to be fixed, they mentioned it as a planned update on a DevStream a little while ago ^^

Bad news? The lack of vacuum, plus the cause of companions vanishing, is a programming limitation, not a design limitation.

Titania can't have innate vacuum on her Razorwing because, technically, she already has it. She has Archwing Vacuum, the one that makes loot with zero-g physics float towards you slowly, not the one that takes base-gravity-physics-enabled loot and toggles 'move to me' on it when it comes in range.

Because Razorwing is based on your Mode (and yeah, Archwing is an actual separate mode for the game which literally uses a parallel engine in the game), and so is the loot, that's the whole reason. All of it. The actual reason you can't use base Vacuum of any kind unless you're the Itzal which has a manual 'move to me' toggle ability, which can override the physics once per instance, not constantly.

It's also the only reason (because we've all seen what happens when interactions between things that are non-standard size are triggered, like a Kubrow taking down a Bombard makes the Kubrow scale up and the Bombard scale down, our own Finisher animations on larger-than-normal enemies making the shrink and so on) that Titania can't revive allies, pick up objects, use consoles, anything that requires 'X to interact'. The game requires you to be in a position it can recognise to be able to interact, scale of the character is completely irrelevant. Razorwing puts you in Archwing mode so the base engine can't map you on the Nav Mesh to trigger animations and interactions.

So... if DE fixes this by recoding the base game to incorporate Archwing without having it be a separate game mode engine that's bolted onto the base engine... then yeah, it'll all be fixed ^^

Until then, the two biggest fixes that people want for Titania, vacuum and companions, are the two that are the most difficult to do, and likely won't happen soon for a reason. 

Literally, if they could have been done already, they would have been done already.

But yeah... carry on... keep the rest of the ideas going. I'm just the bearer of information.

[TheKazz91]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So, I'm generally in favour of just about everything.

Two points to add, though.

Good news? They're removing collision damage. That's going to be fixed, they mentioned it as a planned update on a DevStream a little while ago ^^

Bad news? The lack of vacuum, plus the cause of companions vanishing, is a programming limitation, not a design limitation.

Titania can't have innate vacuum on her Razorwing because, technically, she already has it. She has Archwing Vacuum, the one that makes loot with zero-g physics float towards you slowly, not the one that takes base-gravity-physics-enabled loot and toggles 'move to me' on it when it comes in range.

Because Razorwing is based on your Mode (and yeah, Archwing is an actual separate mode for the game which literally uses a parallel engine in the game), and so is the loot, that's the whole reason. All of it. The actual reason you can't use base Vacuum of any kind unless you're the Itzal which has a manual 'move to me' toggle ability, which can override the physics once per instance, not constantly.

It's also the only reason (because we've all seen what happens when interactions between things that are non-standard size are triggered, like a Kubrow taking down a Bombard makes the Kubrow scale up and the Bombard scale down, our own Finisher animations on larger-than-normal enemies making the shrink and so on) that Titania can't revive allies, pick up objects, use consoles, anything that requires 'X to interact'. The game requires you to be in a position it can recognise to be able to interact, scale of the character is completely irrelevant. Razorwing puts you in Archwing mode so the base engine can't map you on the Nav Mesh to trigger animations and interactions.

So... if DE fixes this by recoding the base game to incorporate Archwing without having it be a separate game mode engine that's bolted onto the base engine... then yeah, it'll all be fixed ^^

Until then, the two biggest fixes that people want for Titania, vacuum and companions, are the two that are the most difficult to do, and likely won't happen soon for a reason. 

Literally, if they could have been done already, they would have been done already.

But yeah... carry on... keep the rest of the ideas going. I'm just the bearer of information.

Yeah I touched on this, that many of the the general fixes than need to happen are tied to an update for arc wing and making them vehicles (which I believe they have said is the eventual plan) and not necessarily anything to do with Titania specifically. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by TheKazz91

[Autongnosis]

Il y a 15 heures, TheKazz91 a dit :

these tweeks do loosely make her 2  synergize  with razor wing as Dust, Throns, and Full Moon now all benefit razor wing. Changes to Dust means you dont need to be as close to enemies, Thrones is a DPS boost if you'r getting attacked if we go with option 2 and Full Moon is a strait up 75% damage increase. 

The problem with that is that the kind of sinergy Titania needs is not just that imo. It should be something like Nezha, Saryn or Revenant (IF they fix his thralls) where all skills feed into one another to at least some degree. The direction of those sinergies is up for debate. 

Il y a 14 heures, Azamagon a dit :

Can't say I agreed that she has an identity-crisis (mainly aimed at @Autongnosis. Plenty of Warframes have versatile kits. The problem with Titania (and a few other Warframes, ofc) is that there is no cohesiveness to the kit.

[snip] 

So, I STRONGLY disagreed that she needs her other skills to directly provide "more DPS". Utility is always useful, and should never be underestimated.

That's what i mean about the identity crisis thing. It's not just the lack of direction in a kit, for that, if done well, can be an asset too. 

The problem is that her kit lacks cohesiveness as you said but also lacks direction and is mechanically unsound. She has two CC skills of which one is rendered completely moot by another (the vauban problem) and a support skill that doesn't work in its current state. On top of that, the CC skills as they are are very selfish, in that they mostly benefit Titania because of one reason or another, and the support skill does not support enough. See that's the whole identity crisis thing. We have a frame with half her kit focused on pure CC that doesn't really work for a team, a support skill that doesn't support that much, and then a bonkers DPS skill that has no interactions whatsoever with the rest of her kit. I would also argue that lifting enemies in the air is a nerf to her DPS since punchthrough exists but that's for another topic. 

On top of that the skills do not interact at all with one another. 

As a last note i do not think more DPS is the solution either, when i talked about damage sinergies what i had in mind was better application of damage and not more damage. Something like Khora's 2 and 4 working together with her 1 to provide a faster clearing speed by grouping enemies. 

[Im_a_Turtle]

I like the suggested changes in OP's post. I can't really argue with any of the changes as he has already stated that a good majority of her abilities are sort of counter productive.

[Julian_Skies]

@Thaylien Tenno, I've the feel that many Titania fans will be EXTRA happy with Railjack.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Julian_Skies said:

@Thaylien Tenno, I've the feel that many Titania fans will be EXTRA happy with Railjack.

I've seen what they demo'd too and you'll notice exactly the same thing I did; they're still gating Archwing into its own mode. You exit the ship through a launcher door, you cross to the ship, then when you get there you gate back to regular mode.

Much the same way that Titania has to use an actual Archwing during the dedicated Archwing missions, she will need one in Railjack.

Calling it now. Come back and remind me if I'm actually wrong, feel free, but Titania will not be able to just fly off the Railjack ship and onto the other ship.

[Julian_Skies]

Oh, no, I wouldn't think she would, and if are did if personally make her. Weapons utterly useless. However, they're giving a lot of focus to archwing mode for railjack, there is a very high probability that a lot of the innate issues with Titania may end up getting resolved in the process since they are AW-mode innate issues.

[Melanholic7]

after watching videos where titania kills Plague boss heads for like couple of sconds i crafter her and leveled. And formed. Aaaaaand she deals aero dmg to boss heads. wow. Seriously? almost full build pistols deals almost nothing to this boss (i picked status build from video).  Yeah, i have lower ability power , but lol, we were killing 4 bosses for like 10-12 minutes. omg. 

Ofc maybe i need sarpa for armor shred, but lol - if its the point of good dmg -  what the pointof Titania?? u can use Sarpa and do more dmg with any other frame just with weapon...

 

[Julian_Skies]

Are you sure you were building for corrosive AND there wasn't a Disruptor Ancient around? Disruptors effects the damage of your Dex Pixia.

[Melanholic7]

5 часов назад, Julian_Skies сказал:

Are you sure you were building for corrosive AND there wasn't a Disruptor Ancient around? Disruptors effects the damage of your Dex Pixia.

yeah,i used build from other guy from video,he used gas so that was the problem. gas - 0 dmg. corrosive - easy 1-5 sec kill 😮 amazing. so,i was just dumb. ty. And thx about the Ancients. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Melanholic7

[pook-pook]

OMFG the collision damage fix landed, finally.

We'll still lose all momentum if we accidentally hit a surface while trying to scrape the ground for those energy bubbles, or doors just don't open as we're zipping around, but hey, at least no more Death By Door!!!!

Edited September 25, 2018 by pook-pook

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 23.9.2018 um 01:52 schrieb TheKazz91:

So what you're saying is:

The point of this is not to say that Titania is trash it is to say that a lot of her kit doesn't make sense and without relying on Razorwing she is aggressively mediocre at best.

Same could be said about excal....still among the stronger frames imo.

[TheKazz91]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Same could be said about excal....still among the stronger frames imo.

I dont think the same can be said about excal all four of his abilities are worth using for different reasons. Slash dash is most a defensive ability you use as a gap closer because he likes being close to enemies so that is radial blind is more effective as a 25 meter 15 second hard CC. Radial javelin is base 1000 damage to everything in 25 meters and the strenths of exahalted blade really dont need any explanation though I will say that even without efficiency mods it only costs 2.5 energy per second and he has nearly 4 times the amount of armor that Titania does (meaning his survivability isnt based on RNG or your ability to NEVER touch anything that deals AOE damage). 

So again all his abilies have a purpose a good player will cast all of his abilities. I would actually say that Excalibur is a very well balanced frame. All of his abilities are worth casting though he isnt dependent on any of his abilities to the point that casting any of his other three abilities is actually detrimental because all that energy you're spending on those abilities could instead be put to about 1000% better use both in terms of your survivability AND damage output with maybe one exception if you have the augment for your one ability worth casting just so you can get an added bonus to your ability that is already worth casting. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by TheKazz91

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb TheKazz91:

I dont think the same can be said about excal all four of his abilities are worth using for different reasons. Slash dash is most a defensive ability you use as a gap closer because he likes being close to enemies

Except that you loose damage using it... you can gain combo but it's allmost impossible to use.

His continious nerfs kinda compliment the idea that you wanna be close but he isn't a close but midrange frame.. there's also little point in using RJ at all. What defines him is his EB, the resulting status and RB's Cc for survivability. Everything else doesn't benefit him at all.

 

A strong exalted weapon and Cc that goes with it...kinda does sound like titania does it not?

[TheKazz91]

So youre saying that 12000 base damage plus knock down and short duration stun that when augmented gives a 60% damage boost for 12 seconds which is effected by strength and duration for 75 base energy is not worth it? 

His 1 is also great for boosting combo mulitplier when its augmented as you get 5 combo hits per enemy hit in a 12 meter cone. 1 congo line of enemies can easily get you up 2.5x from a combo counter of 0 for 25 base energy.

Like I said all of his abilies have uses. yes MOST people pretty much just use radial blind and exalted blade but that doesnt mean his other ablities are not worth using ever. 

Compared to Titania where her main CC is only worth casting in confined spaces (where it would probably just be faster and more efficient to just slaughter everything with dex pixia any way) and her secondary CC is only worth casting for status immunity and the increased fire rate/movement speed in razor wing when you have it augmented. And Tribute would be hard pressed to be worth its cost if it actually gave buffs that were good let alone the non-sensical and some times litererally worthless buffs it provides currently even assuming that RNG doesnt decide to muck it up by not spawning the enemy type you need for the last 20 seconds before your fully stacked buff falls off. The only reason you're arguing that she is fine is because dex pixia is over tuned so what happens if/when those get nerfed to just be above average or even just great rather than game breaking single target dps? That is the problem if dex pixia wasnt stupid over powered she falls flat on her face. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by TheKazz91

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb TheKazz91:

The only reason you're arguing that she is fine is because dex pixia is over tuned so what happens if/when those get nerfed to just be above average or even just great rather than game breaking single target dps? That is the problem if dex pixia wasnt stupid over powered she falls flat on her face. 

The same way EB is overtuned? The same way RB works best in envirements where LoS doesn't affect it? And i seriously wanna see a build that even allows all of his abilities to be at its best....basicly have enough efficiency, strength, duration, survivability, range and multiple auguments for anything to be even worth using over a specialised build.

I'm arguing because it's true. She doesn't need to be overworked any more then excal does... 

Edited September 26, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[TheKazz91]

@(PS4)CoolD2108

I think we may need to agree to disagree mate. Dont get me wrong I apreciate the alternate view point but I dont think frames that have effectively 1 ability are good game design. Also 2 biggest changes in the Vanilla rework suggestion out side of razorwing QoL enhancements and tribute (which is a train wreck of an ability any way you slice it) are to make her 1 free cast and removing the floating ragdoll on her 3. Literally those 2 changes (plus the removal of collision damage in the last update thanks DE) alone would make her infinitely more usuable and less clunky.

Edited September 26, 2018 by TheKazz91

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

On 2018-09-23 at 3:53 PM, Thaylien said:

Titania can't have innate vacuum on her Razorwing because, technically, she already has it. She has Archwing Vacuum, the one that makes loot with zero-g physics float towards you slowly, not the one that takes base-gravity-physics-enabled loot and toggles 'move to me' on it when it comes in range.

On 2018-09-23 at 3:53 PM, Thaylien said:

unless you're the Itzal which has a manual 'move to me' toggle ability, which can override the physics once per instance, not constantly.

This makes me wonder if they can't give Titania's 4 an alt activation.  Hold to switch in and out, tap to activate an item only Cosmic Crush.  It might be an effective band-aid.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

This makes me wonder if they can't give Titania's 4 an alt activation.  Hold to switch in and out, tap to activate an item only Cosmic Crush.  It might be an effective band-aid.

Yeah, but we've seen DE's Band Aid functions come home to stay. I mean, look at Eternal Ward for Chroma... that thing should 100% have been part of the base ability, but it isn't, so they gave it to us as an optional that we can't use in a really good build, just so that they could say 'well, there's the function, you can take it or leave it, but we don't have to do more'.

All of us would rather they actually fix it.

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Yeah, but we've seen DE's Band Aid functions come home to stay. I mean, look at Eternal Ward for Chroma... that thing should 100% have been part of the base ability, but it isn't, so they gave it to us as an optional that we can't use in a really good build, just so that they could say 'well, there's the function, you can take it or leave it, but we don't have to do more'.

All of us would rather they actually fix it.

They did it to Octavia's 2, too.

But no, I'm suggesting this as a non augment band aid.  Since, you know, the big problems would require them to rebuild a game mode from the ground up

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

They did it to Octavia's 2, too.

Eh, after using it versus regular Resonator, I... actually don't think they did.

Resonator has a dedicated use for drawing aggro at all times. No it's not always where you want it, but wherever it is it's doing the work and seeking new enemies. The Augment is only for basically making it camp a specific location, making it better at that specific task, not exactly better overall. It adds a function, but the base ability doesn't actually need it.

Still, I'm getting off-topic ^^

[WhimsicalPacifist]

What if Razorwing didn't cost Energy or slowly regenned it like Archwing?  Would it be that broken?  It really would open up alot of modspace on her that could be used to solve her other problems ie Casting Speed or Quick Thinking.

Edited September 27, 2018 by WhimsicalPacifist

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

On 2018-09-22 at 11:52 AM, Dark_RRiderr said:

Just to your info, i got a Rad damage build with my Razorwing MPs that got about 13.whatever firerate with close to 19k rad damage.... i saw #*!%ing level 60 dropships in half and can Eidolon hunt with her, specially if a Rhino with Roar build boosts me and Limbo Banishes me (remember guys, warframe abilitys and exalted weapons go through the rift, while enemy attacks dont do that...)

Look out for me on the Plague Star Event, the Hemocyte is also another prey i bring to its knees with her.

I fold together Level 155s of nearly all kinds (Heavy Gunners, Nox, Ancients, Grineer Plains Commanders, Bombards ect) within seconds.

All she will get if DE will see the way i use her is a nerf if more people use her my way ...

 

So anyone still thinking she is not OP if used right should maybe consider said facts.

Lmao out side of team comps to get 19k dmg on Dex pixia youd have to be running litterally all but maybe 1 or 2 power strength mods. Youd need a PS of about 350%.... which let's be realistic here. its so far out of optimisation its laughable.  Please go away.

[TheKazz91]

1 hour ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

What if Razorwing didn't cost Energy or slowly regenned it like Archwing?  Would it be that broken?  It really would open up alot of modspace on her that could be used to solve her other problems ie Casting Speed or Quick Thinking.

Yeah I would say that would be broken I am all for giving her some way to get energy back in razor wing but making it not cost anything to be in razor wing isnt the solution

[WhimsicalPacifist]

8 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

Yeah I would say that would be broken I am all for giving her some way to get energy back in razor wing but making it not cost anything to be in razor wing isnt the solution

What makes Razorwing so game breaking compared to Exalted Blade or Ivara that warrants a higher energy cost on a frame with the most expensive buff in the game and so small an energy pool?  Exalted Blade with Chromatic Blade and efficiency becomes an afk machine that can sit against a door's corner and with an E macro mow things down for 15 minutes.  Ivara's invisibility can scale her into infinity and an efficiency build can stand still AFK for 45m-1hr.