Eidolon: Fishing, Mining, Cores, Wisps and main sory - content gating. With suggestions

[FlusteredFerret]

14 hours ago, deothor said:

All of that is FORCEFULLY REQUIRED for you to do to progress main story. Fishing, Mining, Wisp farming, core farming. All of this. Everything HAS to be done. You can't skip it (unless you want to cheese main mission). For a player to actually stand a chance in umbra saga, he needs to have his first-crafted AMP, which is:

- make a side-looking-quest

- catch ALL TIERS OF FISH

- mine ALL TIERS OF ORES/GEMS

- max the cetus syndicate (for necessary blueprints for baits/gems/tools)

- farm cores to increase level with Onkko syndicate (remember you have no tools for BOSS, so you should be slowly farming vomvalysts, unless you just want to leech... Like everyone does)

- farm minimum of 30 wisps- compared to all other tasks, it's childsplay, yet still annoying.

Actually I did most of the The Sacrifice with my Mote Amp. Only got my first built amp for the last two / three parts.

I'm also only at Observer rank with the Quills...and yes I spent many nights on the plains farming Vomvalysts just to get that far. Also not even close to max rank with the Ostrons. You can get everything you need to fish for amp components with Trusted standing. Again, doing bounty missions is the quickest way to achieve this.

You most certainly DON'T need to catch ALL types of fish or mine ALL ores / gems (matter of fact mining isn't even required to build an amp). Catching Murkrays is a bit of a pain, but not nearly as bad as mining all the ore required to build Gara. Wisps are also a bit annoying, but you can get those doing bounty missions, as well as harvesting them from the plains.

 

Maybe Warframe isn't the right game for you?

 

There is a reason "We All Lift Together / We All Grind Together" has become a bit of a meme.

The devs have often acknowledged / stated that grinding is a major part of the game...partly to prolong the life of the game and also because it often takes a long time to create new content.

Most of the things that annoy you are either very minor inconveniences, at best, or else deliberate mechanisms that "force" you to explore different aspects of the game. Because this game does have so many different elements to it, that if they didn't make so many activities interlinked, there would undoubtedly be a lot of content that got ignored, because people just didn't like it.

I actually like the fact that nearly everything has a purpose or prior requirements before you can move on to other things. For me it does give me a sense that everything in the game is interconnected and has a reason to be there. Yes, I do find some things a bit irritating...but I just see it as a challenge and so far I've progressed through the game with only a few WTF moments and occasions where I really needed help (carrying) by better players.

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[IntheCoconut]

returning player here...why do I have to do PoE in order to do the main story? I'm getting ready to do The Sacrifice, and just completed Chains of Harrow and Apostasy Prologue because they are required, but I don't see anything about needing to complete PoE. If you can't answer the question without providing spoilers then please don't lol. If that's the case, I'll figure out I need to do that stuff the hard way.

[FlusteredFerret]

10 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

returning player here...why do I have to do PoE in order to do the main story? I'm getting ready to do The Sacrifice, and just completed Chains of Harrow and Apostasy Prologue because they are required, but I don't see anything about needing to complete PoE. If you can't answer the question without providing spoilers then please don't lol. If that's the case, I'll figure out I need to do that stuff the hard way.

This is more about getting all the stuff necessary and standing with the Quills to build an amp. That requires fishing, as well as farming cores, wisps etc. You also need to have certains standings with the Ostrons and Quills in order to get the bait blueprints and stuff to make the bait, as well as accessing amp components.

If you've done Chains of Harrow, you will know how useful having an Amp can be (I did it the hard way with a Mote Amp). Having one IS necessary for a certain part of The Sacrifice.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[IntheCoconut]

17 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

This is more about getting all the stuff necessary and standing with the Quills to build an amp. That requires fishing, as well as farming cores, wisps etc. You also need to have certains standings with the Ostrons and Quills in order to get the bait blueprints and stuff to make the bait, as well as accessing amp components.

If you've done Chains of Harrow, you will know how useful having an Amp can be (I did it the hard way with a Mote Amp). Having one IS necessary for a certain part of The Sacrifice.

 

 

Okay gotcha, that makes sense. I do have the Mote Amp, I think the Quills gave it to me just for saying hi to them lol. Hopefully that will be good enough to get me through the rest of the story. If it isn't, I can understand the frustration because it looks like it will be a while before I can build a better one. 

[(PSN)wackt1]

lmao, I just want DE to increase how many fish I can store in the aquariums. 10 slots for the fish is not enough. 

[Aazhyd]

17 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

Okay gotcha, that makes sense. I do have the Mote Amp, I think the Quills gave it to me just for saying hi to them lol. Hopefully that will be good enough to get me through the rest of the story. If it isn't, I can understand the frustration because it looks like it will be a while before I can build a better one. 

Mote amp is total crap. If you plan on doing Eidolon hunts, you need something else. Even a 211 is a big upgrade. that's not hard to get.

If you're not planning on using your operator much, go with the mote. However, you're missing a lot.

[FlusteredFerret]

21 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

Okay gotcha, that makes sense. I do have the Mote Amp, I think the Quills gave it to me just for saying hi to them lol. Hopefully that will be good enough to get me through the rest of the story. If it isn't, I can understand the frustration because it looks like it will be a while before I can build a better one. 

I'd say its definitely worth the grind to acquire a built amp.

As I said, you only need to get Trusted status with the Ostrons, in order to get the bait blueprints to fish for Norg & Murkrays (Norg brains are required for Murkray bait and Murkray livers are needed to build some amp components).

Doing bounty missions will raise your standing pretty quickly - and can also reward you with wisps...also needed for building amps.

Mote Amps are good for farming sentient cores from Vomvalysts. Admittedly this took me a while...maybe 5-6 nights of farming, but you only need to reach Observer status with the Quills to get access to your first assembled amp components. The difference is huge and the effort is definitely worth it.

I went through most of The Sacrifice with my Mote Amp, but with hindsight I would definitely prefer to have had my built amp. Even unranked, they are far more powerful. There are a couple of parts towards the end where you will definitely be glad have one (or wish you had one).

Anyway, good luck with the quest.

 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

Spoiler

 

On 2018-10-23 at 6:09 PM, deothor said:

      Hey guys, about a week ago I've came back to WF after year long break. there was plenty of things I had to re-learn and tbh I got quite overwhelmed, but with time I managed to get hold of most of new things that DE added.

I simply love Eidolon. It's fresh for WF and reminds me of 'good'ol days" with FireFall. Sadly this open world has "few" flaws that tbh are pretty obviously tacked on, yet pointless. I know I might be beating dead horse by now, but at least I'll know there's a tiny-slim chance there will be a change. Or maybe we'll get some nice discussion going here, who knows.

Ok, what exactly are my issues.

1. Rare fish requiring certain baits. The whole concept of bait increasing spawnrate is fine by me. But gating certain types of fish from ever spawning is trying to forcefully prolong the content the map has. And it's totally uneccessary tbh. Fishing is fun. Especially when some frames do "different things" to make fishing easier (love ivara fishing, it's fun).

My suggestions:

* Make all fish spawn and obviously the "endgame fish" to have lower chance of spawning (somewhere 1-3% would do)

* certain baits increase certain fish spawning

* Make fish weight matter when comes to standing, not just S/M/L= X/Y/Z standing

* Make endgame fish scale their HP a bit more, so they are tougher to catch for unprepared (lowbie) fisherman

* Update other maps with water so they could also be used to farm fish in (also introduce wildlife to other Earth missions)

 

2. Mining. Tbh this one is rather annoying. I don't dislike it, but if I could I'd just skip it. Feels annoying and pointless. It'd feel a whole lot better if we could excavate materials (tougher version of cryo-excavations). What's worse player is denied obtaining all possible materials without the use of strongest of cutters. Why. Just.. Why. Again, taking content and forcefully stretching it.

My suggestion:

* All ores/metals/gems (whatever you want to call them) can be obtainable with basic cutter. The amount varis depending on skill AND the cutter used (so there's a reason to upgrade it)

* Time needed to cut the ore depends on its rarity. Rarer materials need better cutting

* Let players get all necessary BPs for foundry for ores/gems OR let NPCS do it for small fee

* Have certain Grineer mining-oriented outposts consist low amounts of various ores/gems. Nothing huge. 

* Add excavator mission/bounty-mission

 

3. Teralyst and sentient cores. I'm not sure, but it feels like there's some decent chunk of content missing. We have only 2 ways of obtaining cores. Kill small things at night only, or kill big boss at night only. And the amount of cores you need is staggering. It's doable, but feels oddly empty. There's like nothing in middle. 

M suggestions:

* Rework core-rarity and how much it stands for. I'm proposing: cracked/intact/exceptional/flawless worth 100/200/300/500 respectively. The lowest in food chain, vomvalysts drop cracked cores.

* Add few more categories of eidolons that will fit in the missing parts. Something like eidolon special eximus-units

* Add cores as part of rewards for doing bounties, or even better let us steal those cores from grineers. They use lures afterall so they must have some cores on them

* Find a way of letting players to farm cores not only at night. Doesn't have to be tru-tru meta. Just an option for desperate.

* increase daily limits. It's already gated by nights. Or increase standing-limit each ingame night by few thousands beyond the max daily limit.

 

4. Wisps. What are those. For what other purpose than... Yet again... overextending the content? They look neat, but beyond being "yet another gate" they simply have no purpose. To be honest my suggestion for this would be either remove them, make them just decorative or nerf amount required to be usefull for anything. Adding 1 material for ONLY 1 purpose is bad as is, already. Making it pain in buttocks to farm only to increase players time played on eidolon tick from 10 to 50 hour (obvious exaggeration) is unhealthy.

 

Lastly, I'd even say the accumulation, the greatest issue that connects all of those things together into one issue of the biggest scale, that I don't remember even happening in WF before:

All of that is FORCEFULLY REQUIRED for you to do to progress main story. Fishing, Mining, Wisp farming, core farming. All of this. Everything HAS to be done. You can't skip it (unless you want to cheese main mission). For a player to actually stand a chance in umbra saga, he needs to have his first-crafted AMP, which is:

- make a side-looking-quest

- catch ALL TIERS OF FISH

- mine ALL TIERS OF ORES/GEMS

- max the cetus syndicate (for necessary blueprints for baits/gems/tools)

- farm cores to increase level with Onkko syndicate (remember you have no tools for BOSS, so you should be slowly farming vomvalysts, unless you just want to leech... Like everyone does)

- farm minimum of 30 wisps- compared to all other tasks, it's childsplay, yet still annoying.

Sounds little on paper, but I can promise you that once you'll want to do it, like seriously focus on progressing the main story (which is just awesome, pls MOAR), then you'll get dizzy from just sketching overall farm-plan. It is simply insane. Obviously you can cut some corners by leeching boss, buying gems and fish parts, but if you want to progress it alone (as you did with all other main quests), without cheesing stuff. Then well.. See you in bare-minimum 200 hours (of pure mindless grind).

Oh and whoever says "you can do without" is dirty lier or simple cheese-cake.... Or some ungodly being with either uncompared luck or skill.

In my case, after doing all of this, there was 1 more issue. My operator was insta dying whenever umbra decided to use radiant javelin, or slash me twice. After a while I came up with the idea to disarm him with blast from one of schools and that glitched him out. Otherwise i'd die. But that's just beyond the point. maybe I did something wrong there. 

---

Anyways. Not ever before were a player forced to do SO MUCH to progress main story. Yea sure once we had to scan something or kill something, but this time DE dropped whole minigame on us just to let us to get into main story. And from the looks of it I heard it was so-much-harder before.

DE devs, I dunno if anyone of you will bother to read it, but if you do, just know this: This content stretching is unecessary and actually makes gameplay so much worse. I'd stick in eidolon as long even without forcing me to catch few thousands fishes. Really.

 

Lastly as a cherry on a cake here's a bug that kinda made me write this text just as a form to relax myself:

if you had spent all of you daily standing and then you still offer fish for the old creepy hag to get some points: It will waste. You will lose all of your fish. For nothing. 0 gain. Null. Egg. That being said 45 minutes of fishing back into the sea. I'm still pissed.

 

 

1.  DE will not change the fishing bait mechanic just to make it more grindy cause you feel too lazy to build bait for rarier fish as its not too hard an makes you be more careful with what bait your throwing out. along with not everyone wants every type of fish to spawn out while trying to look for a certain fish.
There are 3 differnt fishing spears that if you use the right one you 1 shot the fish an your desire to make it so fish have more health just makes it even harder for players.

2. all but the ediolon gems are gainable with the basic cutters, while the other two cutters make it easyier to get do the cutting.
DE is planning on changing the line cutting mechanic to something else.
 

3. sentients on lua do drop intact cores.
the core farming is not as hard as it was from day 1 of POE release as each time you kill a vomblyst you get a intact core while at release you didn't have that 100% chance of a core coming out of them when killed.
Doing just teralysts each night cycle is more than enough for players to max out there daily standing gain for each day.
 

4. ya wisp farming is hard an annoying but hey 😄 a nova build for range an effincy along with a aim glide an loot rader mods helps you get around the map fast enough to look for all the wisps on the route that lots of players take.
Tho alot of players do stock up on wisps when plague star event comes out as its easy to stock up a nice big pile of them.

All in all your just wanting to make the game more grindy while allowing for even more grind as the game is not personaly tailored to your desires.
all you suggested is forcing players to do more stuff just to progress yet your complaining about having to do so much just to progress, so kinda seems redundant of making this thread.

Also this belong in feedback not general  

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

30 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I'd say its definitely worth the grind to acquire a built amp.

As I said, you only need to get Trusted status with the Ostrons, in order to get the bait blueprints to fish for Norg & Murkrays (Norg brains are required for Murkray bait and Murkray livers are needed to build some amp components).

Doing bounty missions will raise your standing pretty quickly - and can also reward you with wisps...also needed for building amps.

Mote Amps are good for farming sentient cores from Vomvalysts. Admittedly this took me a while...maybe 5-6 nights of farming, but you only need to reach Observer status with the Quills to get access to your first assembled amp components. The difference is huge and the effort is definitely worth it.

I went through most of The Sacrifice with my Mote Amp, but with hindsight I would definitely prefer to have had my built amp. Even unranked, they are far more powerful. There are a couple of parts towards the end where you will definitely be glad have one (or wish you had one).

Anyway, good luck with the quest.

 

murkray bait doesnt need norg brains, think you confused Glappid Bait as it requires norg brains

Murkray requires tralok, lungfish, an goopolla fish to parts.

i would have suggested they do the teralyst bounties to get more cores as alot of players often just go do them to teach newer players tips an tricks to do the hunts

[FlusteredFerret]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

murkray bait doesnt need norg brains, think you confused Glappid Bait as it requires norg brains

Murkray requires tralok, lungfish, an goopolla fish to parts.

i would have suggested they do the teralyst bounties to get more cores as alot of players often just go do them to teach newer players tips an tricks to do the hunts

Well yes you can hoover up a load of cores that way, but since you're not going to be much use (even with someone guiding you) you have to hope the rest of the team can carry you and you can just sweep up the goodies at the end.

Plus if you don't know about Eidolon attacks, its easy to find yourself bleeding out very frequently.

I was able to farm 50-60 Vomvalyst cores a night, which (while boring after a while) is a lot easier & safer.

You only start needing shards to get to the third rank with the Quills, so IMO its better to build an amp then start doing Eidolon hunts.

 

And yes, I think I was thinking about other amp components, re Norg brains.

 

[Eyn_Sof]

2.
In one of latest devstreams they showed the changed mining.
You will have multiple points on one vein and you have to hold and release it on specific point, the better you are the more rewards you will get and you will also receive multiple ones depending on how good you are.

[Chappie]

2 hours ago, Eyn_Sof said:

2.
In one of latest devstreams they showed the changed mining.
You will have multiple points on one vein and you have to hold and release it on specific point, the better you are the more rewards you will get and you will also receive multiple ones depending on how good you are.

I believe the change to mining was a "good thing" in that the baseline system benefit KB/Mouse users over controller users.   The same goes for fishing IMO.  It is just easier with a KB/mouse to catch a fish than a controller.   I feel that something like the final fantasy system is a better compromise for fishing in that it gives neither group an advantage and rewards at least "some skill".  

[Gerdaro]

i didnt even know that people having trouble to kill umbra was a thing,..

I did it with mote amp wtf

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, Gerdaro said:

i didnt even know that people having trouble to kill umbra was a thing,..

I did it with mote amp wtf

Some of us are more noob than others...

I actually did most of The Sacrifice with a Mote Amp - the parts where you have to "stun" him before you F5 and get in his mind. Dunno about killing Umbra - I was referring to the part where you have to fight off Battalysts in Operator mode (because Umbra doesn't "work" yet) while getting to extraction. I was glad I had a built amp for that bit.

[PR1D3]

On 2018-10-23 at 6:09 PM, deothor said:

* Have certain Grineer mining-oriented outposts consist low amounts of various ores/gems. Nothing huge. 

* Add excavator mission/bounty-mission

Having the ability to Raiding encampents for stuff would be nice. You can get a few drops of the other resources, it would be fine. Excavations outside of Ghoul Bounties would be nice. Those are the only things I will agree/budge on, everything else I have to disagree with you.

[LarryYourWaiter]

I hate fishing in games so much.  I don’t play a horde shooter to stand around fishing.  When plague star was here, I loaded up on fish parts and wisps.  I’d honestly rather grind relics, sell parts and buy fish for plat than stand around fishing.

i don’t mind mining so much though. 

[Ahmed_cappo]

On 2018-10-24 at 3:18 PM, FlusteredFerret said:

This is more about getting all the stuff necessary and standing with the Quills to build an amp. That requires fishing, as well as farming cores, wisps etc. You also need to have certains standings with the Ostrons and Quills in order to get the bait blueprints and stuff to make the bait, as well as accessing amp components.

If you've done Chains of Harrow, you will know how useful having an Amp can be (I did it the hard way with a Mote Amp). Having one IS necessary for a certain part of The Sacrifice.

 

 

hard way! lool 
I did all quests with no amp at all xD just my operator nothing else :v

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-10-24 at 12:09 AM, deothor said:

All of that is FORCEFULLY REQUIRED for you to do to progress main story. Fishing, Mining, Wisp farming, core farming. All of this. Everything HAS to be done. You can't skip it (unless you want to cheese main mission). For a player to actually stand a chance in umbra saga, he needs to have his first-crafted AMP, which is:

Anyways. Not ever before were a player forced to do SO MUCH to progress main story. Yea sure once we had to scan something or kill something, but this time DE dropped whole minigame on us just to let us to get into main story. And from the looks of it I heard it was so-much-harder before.

"Forcefully required" is false, Warframe has plenty of hard requirements for progress and none of the things you mentioned are hard requirements, They are soft requirements.

Should a good amp and some focus progress have been a hard requirement? given the amount of players cheesing the Sacrifice. From the perspective of a good gameplay experience, I'd say yes. But DE don't like to lock out players where they can avoid it. I've learned to be as prepared as I can so the experience feels "as intended"

That said, all I can say about doing those "requirements" is, I did it. Before the 100% core drop on Vomvalysts, mining revamp, reusable bait blueprints, and solo. So it really isn't that laborious or hard from my perspective

Really the content is structured like any MMO, lots of resource gathering for crafting that you are supposed to do in-between doing some combat activity that increases a counter that gives you access to other requirements. Then you get the cool gear that lets you do the cool content, rinse, repeat.

Quest content is monstrously expensive to create unfortunately, so it has to be broken up with algorithmic content. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by SilentMobius