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How the Warframe could be - Loki


arkeid
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Desired by advanced players, Loki offers a variety of specialized reconfiguring abilities. The creativity of Loki's powers allows players to master the battlefield through manipulation.

This is Loki, the trickster, the deceiver. Whether you prefer to go into battle alone or with a team, Tenno, Loki will adapt to any style. Lotus

Loki is a fragile but fast manipulator Warframe. He has little in the way of direct damage abilities, instead focusing on the arts of distraction, deception, sabotage, relocation and stealth.
 

Wall Grapple Changes [Passive]

- Loki can use skills during Wall Latch.

 

Decoy Changes [1º Skill]

- When deployed, the decoy is invulnerable for a period of 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds. (@Thaylien's idea).
- Decoy invulnerability period is not affected by Ability Duration.

- Increase Decoy Shields to 500 and Health to 300.
- Decoy's shield capacity and total health are affected by Ability Strength. (2% more Health and Shield for every 1% of Power Strength).

Maximized Ability Strength increases Decoy Shields to 3120 and Health to 1872.
Without Energy Conversion and Growing Powerincreases Decoy Shields to 2370 and Health to 1422.
 

Switch Teleport Changes [3º Skill]

- Switching positions with an enemy will cause it to become stunned for 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 seconds and exposing him, reducing their armor by 10% / 20% / 30% / 40%.
- Stun time is not affected by Ability Duration.

- Enemies killed during stunning guarantee a 30% / 40% / 50% / 60% chance to roll the corpse's drop table again to produce additional loot. 
(
Thaylien's idea with a small change).

Maximized Ability Strength increases armor reduction to 124,8%.
Without Energy Conversion and Growing Power, increases armor reduction to 94,8%.
 

Radial Disarm Changes [4º Skill]

- Loki deals 5% / 10% / 15% / 20% extra damage to disarmed enemies affected by Radial Disarm.
- Bonus damage is not affected by Ability Strength.
 

Why Change ?

English:
Loki is one of my favorite Warframes and certainly one of the strongest and most useful of the game.
But the changes I've proposed above are to give a more offensive option to Loki's sneaky style.

Português:
Loki é um dos meus Warframe favoritos e com certeza um dos mais fortes e úteis do jogo.
Mas as mudanças que propus acima é para dar uma opção mais ofensiva para o estilo furtivo do Loki.


Credits to Thaylien for great ideas !!

Edited by arkeid
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I like the Decoy and Wall Latch changes. Loki is squishy, sure, but he could benefit a more on the mischief at high levels. Those decoys have a millisecond duration at high levels, and they are useful for diverting fire/reduce the chance of stray and overpowered one-shot bullets.

As for his Disarm, I don't particularly find any need, seeing as the targets are disarmed, meaning they can only harm you on close quarters combat. And as for Switch Teleport, I don't have an opinion on your proposed changes, but I'd like a sort of buff for team mates, when Loki switches with them. What buff? I dont really know, to be honest, but something that complements the team as a whole or Loki himself as a frame.

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Personally i find the suggestions to be fair ... without changing his kit drastically but adding small non-harmful adjustments. I approve.

I use Loki for everything so an overall change would've rubbed me the wrong way, but i like this a lot.

Edited by Errodin
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34 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Oooh, these are changes I could get behind. I do have a question with the armor reduction for SwitchTel. Isn't armor reduction capped at 100% or am I not understanding how it works properly? As in you can't remove more than 100% of the armor. 

 

Yes, the maximum armor reduction is 100%, but I've left the value as high as possible for anyone who reads to have a notion of how much power strength is needed to remove the entire armor.
 

37 minutes ago, MrTitan123 said:

Hmm...not bad. Honestly, the only thing I would add to decoy is allowing it to actually shoot from a certain distance. (Distance would be limited as to not blow your cover)

I also thought about it, even using Lex's attributes for weapon base status, but since the idea of the skill is to be a hologram I decided not to include. XD
 

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

I like the Decoy and Wall Latch changes. Loki is squishy, sure, but he could benefit a more on the mischief at high levels. Those decoys have a millisecond duration at high levels, and they are useful for diverting fire/reduce the chance of stray and overpowered one-shot bullets.

As for his Disarm, I don't particularly find any need, seeing as the targets are disarmed, meaning they can only harm you on close quarters combat. And as for Switch Teleport, I don't have an opinion on your proposed changes, but I'd like a sort of buff for team mates, when Loki switches with them. What buff? I dont really know, to be honest, but something that complements the team as a whole or Loki himself as a frame.

I do not include any kind of buff for the squad because Loki already has the augment mod Safe Teleport.

31 minutes ago, AwkwardLazarow said:

I do like these, I only use Loki for spy for his Invisibility and nothing else. With these changes I can use him for more

 

I thought of these changes mainly because of this, for Loki to perform more functions, I'm glad that you liked

26 minutes ago, (PS4)jaegerbombtastic said:

Considering I find Loki... lacking compared to other Warframes and their abilities, I really enjoy these suggestions and may even use him more.

WOOOW, to me I consider this a compliment, thank you
18 minutes ago, Errodin said:

Personally i find the suggestions to be fair ... without changing his kit drastically but adding small non-harmful adjustments. I approve.

I use Loki for everything so an overall change would've rubbed me the wrong way, but i like this a lot.

I also like Loki a lot and the main intention of these changes is not to change the essence of it, only to improve it a little bit
I'm glad I liked it
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Soooo... why are we nerfing Decoy for everything except a Strength build? Okay, that's a little hyperbolic, but still.

Loki's abilities don't need Strength in his current form. With your changes a Strength build would be desirable, yes, but for every other build, such as the long-duration Invisibility or max-range Radial Disarm, all of his new abilities would get weaker with the negative Strength, not stronger.

I like the ideas, don’t get me wrong, the ones for Decoy and Teleport are almost sound. But I feel that they could be implemented in mechanically different functions.

I mean, taking your Decoy idea, the problem is that enemy damage scales to the point where, regardless of your power strength, that Decoy will only last a second at most. Cast it and four enemies turn, shoot it, it's gone immediately because even at points where they can't one-shot it, the combined fire pops it like a balloon.

The more mechanically implemented method would be to allow Decoy some charge time, similar to the changes for Molt, that would allow it to survive longer now as a distraction and actually scale.

Throwing it down in the middle of the enemy would then have a purpose rather than a single-second blip on their radar, because that would make it invincible for a few seconds as it charges, guaranteeing some CC time, and then it comes out of that charge stronger and then lasts longer than it ever could based on simple Strength calculations, because you’re implementing Potential.

Think about that for that Switch Teleport change too; Mechanical buffs, rather than Modded buffs are incredibly powerful across the board.

A Strength scaled weakening effect on specifically Armoured enemies is okay, but a mechanical stat generated to create a more general weakness might make things better overall and may allow other things that you wouldn't think Loki could do before.

Your idea for making an enemy Confused on Teleport? Why not take that further; enemies teleported by Loki are seen as clones of Loki (decoys that can fight back), drawing aggro for a set duration. Leave that duration un-modded, the same as you have it already, but the key difference is that enemies will prioritise the enemy over the player unless the player attacks them or walks in their line-of-sight. The effect is then more powerful ^^

Combine that with the Safeguard Switch augment and your new ally is invulnerable to enemy damage (although that might need to be tweaked to allow us to still damage them so that you can’t troll the end of Defense missions or Exterminates).

Then take your idea for armour reduction and make that Universal (because things that only do armour are a little weird to me, making an ability solely used for killing one type of enemy seems… short sighted considering the changes that might be made in the future) Enemies teleported have a set 50% debuff to all damage sources, and are marked for a guaranteed chance to drop an Orb (70/30 split chance between Health/Energy) on death.

We’ve seen that DE aren’t averse to using Orb drops on abilities with the recent Nezha rework, so think how strong Loki could be if he could Manipulate his enemies into that kind of function too ^^

For fun, let’s also say we let that debuff apply to base, before the other buffs that allies can create, so if another frame has a bonus they impart, like Vauban has a 25% damage buff to enemies that are CC’d, let that be after Loki’s calculations. Rather than getting a straight buff of 75% (50+25), this stacking would mean that enemies take 25% extra damage from Vauban, with a 50% bonus to that increased damage. (Mathemetically, that’s a difference between 75% damage and 87.5% damage, see? Subtle, but better than stacking.)

Everyone wants to strip armour, but forgets that armoured enemies aren’t always the most dangerous in the game. Armoured enemies are just bullet sponges, while enemies with actual Abilities… are a little trickier.

Prioritising an Ancient for that Teleport would then not only deny your enemies of the Heal, but also make it the preferred target for the other Infested, drawing them to that spot and ignoring your allies as well as you (if you’re not invisible).

On the other hand…

Honestly, from playing this game for more than four years now, I’m absolutely certain about this; Loki’s Radial Disarm is so powerful in all levels of game content, especially when paired with a Warframe that has any form of Area Denial on their kit, that it can never be buffed to a better state without some kind of trade on its power that we would not want.

The only enemies that are a threat to Loki after a Disarm are Infested, who still have abilities they can use. The problem with applying a damage buff to them is that they can still use those abilities before you can kill them, putting up gas clouds, Swarms, corrosive patches, providing allies with 90% damage reduction and immunity to Status, reducing your ability duration, draining energy, smacking you with a magnetic proc… the buff wouldn’t actually prevent any of this at all.

But compared to that weakness… That’s pretty much it. The ability is already known for trivialising content at any level because of this.

There are other ways you can buff the ability, for example a way to prevent all the things Infested do from helping the other Infested, but… DE have already given us that.

The Augment, which not only takes the weapons, it casts Nyx’s Chaos, making him have more than double the CC that he should have with that cast. All enemy buffs switch off entirely so that nobody benefits from them, and Infested (without armour) tear each other apart quite efficiently.

It’s even possible to last a half hour on Survival using Irradiating Disarm alone. (And don’t get me started on the Pacifism Farming trick with Loki’s Irradiating Disarm and a Nekros protected by Ivara’s Cloak Arrow… that thing is downright unfair… enemies run to the area of the cloaked Nekros, because the ability doesn’t stop the aggro level, just targetting and actual detection, Loki disarms them, they fight each other and just due to weight of numbers they kill each other fast enough to maintain a Survival for far longer just from Prowl and Desecrate. If you actually start killing things too? Way too easy.)

So yeah… I do like some of your proposals, 2 out of 3 isn’t bad, but the actual implementation of them could use work.

Modding calculations, like Strength, all have limits, try implementing your changes to the abilities in ways that have at least a degree of independance from the modding itself. Loki’s strong points are already based on the fact that their effects are not number based, but mechanics.

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6 hours ago, Bombarder0 said:

But how will DE look at this? is there a way to ping them?

 

5 hours ago, Atsia said:

Oh you can ping them like anyone else. There's still no surefire way to get them to see this, they get pinged all the time.

 

It would be nice if a [DE] just comments the post, if already discussing with other players changes is cool, with a [DE] would be "OMG a warframe developer read what I wrote!!!!!" XD
 

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Soooo... why are we nerfing Decoy for everything except a Strength build? Okay, that's a little hyperbolic, but still.

Loki's abilities don't need Strength in his current form. With your changes a Strength build would be desirable, yes, but for every other build, such as the long-duration Invisibility or max-range Radial Disarm, all of his new abilities would get weaker with the negative Strength, not stronger.

I like the ideas, don’t get me wrong, the ones for Decoy and Teleport are almost sound. But I feel that they could be implemented in mechanically different functions.

I mean, taking your Decoy idea, the problem is that enemy damage scales to the point where, regardless of your power strength, that Decoy will only last a second at most. Cast it and four enemies turn, shoot it, it's gone immediately because even at points where they can't one-shot it, the combined fire pops it like a balloon.

The more mechanically implemented method would be to allow Decoy some charge time, similar to the changes for Molt, that would allow it to survive longer now as a distraction and actually scale.

Throwing it down in the middle of the enemy would then have a purpose rather than a single-second blip on their radar, because that would make it invincible for a few seconds as it charges, guaranteeing some CC time, and then it comes out of that charge stronger and then lasts longer than it ever could based on simple Strength calculations, because you’re implementing Potential.

Think about that for that Switch Teleport change too; Mechanical buffs, rather than Modded buffs are incredibly powerful across the board.

A Strength scaled weakening effect on specifically Armoured enemies is okay, but a mechanical stat generated to create a more general weakness might make things better overall and may allow other things that you wouldn't think Loki could do before.

Your idea for making an enemy Confused on Teleport? Why not take that further; enemies teleported by Loki are seen as clones of Loki (decoys that can fight back), drawing aggro for a set duration. Leave that duration un-modded, the same as you have it already, but the key difference is that enemies will prioritise the enemy over the player unless the player attacks them or walks in their line-of-sight. The effect is then more powerful ^^

Combine that with the Safeguard Switch augment and your new ally is invulnerable to enemy damage (although that might need to be tweaked to allow us to still damage them so that you can’t troll the end of Defense missions or Exterminates).

Then take your idea for armour reduction and make that Universal (because things that only do armour are a little weird to me, making an ability solely used for killing one type of enemy seems… short sighted considering the changes that might be made in the future) Enemies teleported have a set 50% debuff to all damage sources, and are marked for a guaranteed chance to drop an Orb (70/30 split chance between Health/Energy) on death.

We’ve seen that DE aren’t averse to using Orb drops on abilities with the recent Nezha rework, so think how strong Loki could be if he could Manipulate his enemies into that kind of function too ^^

For fun, let’s also say we let that debuff apply to base, before the other buffs that allies can create, so if another frame has a bonus they impart, like Vauban has a 25% damage buff to enemies that are CC’d, let that be after Loki’s calculations. Rather than getting a straight buff of 75% (50+25), this stacking would mean that enemies take 25% extra damage from Vauban, with a 50% bonus to that increased damage. (Mathemetically, that’s a difference between 75% damage and 87.5% damage, see? Subtle, but better than stacking.)

Everyone wants to strip armour, but forgets that armoured enemies aren’t always the most dangerous in the game. Armoured enemies are just bullet sponges, while enemies with actual Abilities… are a little trickier.

Prioritising an Ancient for that Teleport would then not only deny your enemies of the Heal, but also make it the preferred target for the other Infested, drawing them to that spot and ignoring your allies as well as you (if you’re not invisible).

On the other hand…

Honestly, from playing this game for more than four years now, I’m absolutely certain about this; Loki’s Radial Disarm is so powerful in all levels of game content, especially when paired with a Warframe that has any form of Area Denial on their kit, that it can never be buffed to a better state without some kind of trade on its power that we would not want.

The only enemies that are a threat to Loki after a Disarm are Infested, who still have abilities they can use. The problem with applying a damage buff to them is that they can still use those abilities before you can kill them, putting up gas clouds, Swarms, corrosive patches, providing allies with 90% damage reduction and immunity to Status, reducing your ability duration, draining energy, smacking you with a magnetic proc… the buff wouldn’t actually prevent any of this at all.

But compared to that weakness… That’s pretty much it. The ability is already known for trivialising content at any level because of this.

There are other ways you can buff the ability, for example a way to prevent all the things Infested do from helping the other Infested, but… DE have already given us that.

The Augment, which not only takes the weapons, it casts Nyx’s Chaos, making him have more than double the CC that he should have with that cast. All enemy buffs switch off entirely so that nobody benefits from them, and Infested (without armour) tear each other apart quite efficiently.

It’s even possible to last a half hour on Survival using Irradiating Disarm alone. (And don’t get me started on the Pacifism Farming trick with Loki’s Irradiating Disarm and a Nekros protected by Ivara’s Cloak Arrow… that thing is downright unfair… enemies run to the area of the cloaked Nekros, because the ability doesn’t stop the aggro level, just targetting and actual detection, Loki disarms them, they fight each other and just due to weight of numbers they kill each other fast enough to maintain a Survival for far longer just from Prowl and Desecrate. If you actually start killing things too? Way too easy.)

So yeah… I do like some of your proposals, 2 out of 3 isn’t bad, but the actual implementation of them could use work.

Modding calculations, like Strength, all have limits, try implementing your changes to the abilities in ways that have at least a degree of independance from the modding itself. Loki’s strong points are already based on the fact that their effects are not number based, but mechanics.

First, thanks for giving great attention to this post (I say this because of the size of your answer XD) 
Your arguments are interesting and some I came to think about when I made the post: 

-yes, these changes would also have negative effects on builds with negative power strength, however a decoy with 200 shield and 120 hp is not 
so different from the current one in enemies 50+, but your idea of invincibility (like Molt) is amazing, could I add in the post? 

-I realized now that I have mistakenly described the idea for Swift Teleport, the intention is not to be confused (like the effects of Nyx or 
Radiation), but disabled as it already happens in the skill, but for a longer time. I'll change this in the post to get clearer. 

-“Enemies teleported have a set 50% debuff to all damage sources, and are marked for a guaranteed chance to drop an Orb (70/30 split chance 
between Health/Energy) on death.” I LOVE THE ENERGY IDEA, it is as if the loki draws from the enemy a resource or information could I 
add in the post too?

Edited by arkeid
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