As a new player I am little tired of "dumb" gameplay mechanics like Saryn - press 4 to kill map...

[BiTrektual]

On 2018-11-25 at 12:13 PM, Marakai said:

I know vets who play level 200+ enemies may see her different  but as a fairy new player I am really tired of just baby sitting next to Saryns who just press 2 keys and I just see Affinity numbers pop out around map. 99% of Saryns just stand in middle of map and spam one-two abillity. I know they are other AOE nukers- but many of them start to scale bad at around 80+ lvl with their nukes from what I have seen, but Saryn damage is toxic and corrosive so she scales probably best with content making even fun missions/events with high level enemies trivial and boring. Many times me and other 3 players on Onslaught or Survival/Defense just stand and hope we can kill something or use our "non-AOE-map nuke-press-one-button" abilities before Saryn kills whole map using so much skill as pressing 2 buttons.

I know Saryn is not alone, Equinox can do something simillar, Octavia can afk, Ember was a problem with it but I heard she was nerfed long time ago.

Anyway I don't understand why DE design those frames with such brainless gameplay. It's not only not fun to play with such frames as other less-AOE frames (or non-meta frames general), it makes mission trivial, boring and not challanging. Not to mention it's a very selfish design since it does nothing for team apart from taking away fun.

Veterans might don't care, I understand- different perspective. But from new player point of few (+ my friends who also started WG with me) it's just not fun to play with.

This is just my opinion as new player.

I understand the pain, however a majority of players value efficiency over fun. For example, when i farm for focus, i do it in sanctuary onslaught as Saryn, because murdering everything there is THE fastest way besides farming Eidolon shards. Really i just solo everything i can unless i must absolutely have others in the game, so i recommend you run with friends or solo unless you have no other choice.   

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Name one other combo, apart from Nuke Saryn, that allows a player to kill all Starchart enemies within 20 meters (plus mods, which can stretch the range to ~35m without negative effects) of the player in seconds, through walls, without line-of-sight, without moving the character, for the press of two buttons. (By the way, Radial Javelin requires line-of-sight on its targets.)

Banshee who can get upto 56 meter range, using resonating quake. Equinox, with maim can get upto 50.4 meters. Frost can get upto 42 meters with his avalanche. Mag with Crush, Octavia with mallet and her ultimate can get ridiculously big. I can make some builds for you if you would like to see. 

[KIREEK]

As a player who only made saryn after she got the rework (due to corrosive procs) i can say with absolute precision that efficiency and results while tied to massive killing, ultimately depend on the player using said abilities, players moan just about every single warframe outthere that has atleast 1 killing ability and even when playing with top of the line embers, i was always able to keep up up and kill more than them, altough i admit the strain in keeping up was rather unconfortable, but i was rewarded with the effort i placed in the mission.

I reached a point after well over 25k missions (just around 5x higher than most players) that even without saryn, i was still a beast, able to receive duzzens if not hunderds of times more loot from a mission compared to other players and the probablility that OP is like the majority, killing 2 enemies in a capture mission will often make this argument fall flat, that's like the afk player complaining about ember and yet i had a screenshot in a squad without ember where he was afk. I got a forum warning for that (deserved it) but my point was clear.

Do not talk about gameplay if you do not play.

Obviously OP here isn't afk, but if he can't keep up and find other things to do then he will be punished, with grind.

If a capture one player kills 2 enemies and in another capture another player kills 200, then the 1st player likely needs to do 100 times the same capture to get the same loot.

If i did that without saryn for 25k missions or whatever, other players can aswell, provided the proper effort is in the gameplay.

Sometimes it's impossible, grab the loot and do other things instead, breka crates, buff, cc, do the mission properly, revive other players,......

[SqualZell]

Do her spores spread far on their own or have trouble spreading... the answer is "yes". There is an initial spread and then there is the contamination spread, both work differently with different criteria for the spread. 

not only that, to get that long range of spread you need to sacrific strength, and to get strength to a reasonable amount to actually kill you need to sacrifice efficiency. at 60% efficiency, Miasma can be cast only 2x with 1full energy bar. her other skills also become expensive to cast. so recasting spores is not as easy as spamming 1-1-1-1-1-1-1. 

the 34m spore spread radius is not that large. mark a waypoint and let me know if groups in maps are more than 34m apart. So you only get 1 spread per group before you lose all your spores and your ticker count starts dropping like a bomb. (so your staying still argument is plain wrong) I rarely get my ticker up higher than 300 in the starchart map. 

also, her damage doesn't scale up, doing high level missions your map clearing ability just doesn't do it anymore and instead it turns into a support armor ripping frame. if you nerf her, you are limiting her to the star chart and becomes obsolete at anything other than your regular missions... and even then why take her if other frames will be able to do better at that point.

[Teridax68]

On 2018-12-03 at 5:52 PM, SqualZell said:

Do her spores spread far on their own or have trouble spreading... the answer is "yes". There is an initial spread and then there is the contamination spread, both work differently with different criteria for the spread. 

not only that, to get that long range of spread you need to sacrific strength, and to get strength to a reasonable amount to actually kill you need to sacrifice efficiency. at 60% efficiency, Miasma can be cast only 2x with 1full energy bar. her other skills also become expensive to cast. so recasting spores is not as easy as spamming 1-1-1-1-1-1-1. 

the 34m spore spread radius is not that large. mark a waypoint and let me know if groups in maps are more than 34m apart. So you only get 1 spread per group before you lose all your spores and your ticker count starts dropping like a bomb. (so your staying still argument is plain wrong) I rarely get my ticker up higher than 300 in the starchart map. 

also, her damage doesn't scale up, doing high level missions your map clearing ability just doesn't do it anymore and instead it turns into a support armor ripping frame. if you nerf her, you are limiting her to the star chart and becomes obsolete at anything other than your regular missions... and even then why take her if other frames will be able to do better at that point.

34m is one of the largest radii for any ability, and that's just the radius per spore. Also, isn't it a bad idea to put Strength into a Spore Saryn anyway? Her damage automatically ramps up, so it is in fact one of the few damage sources in the game that does scale up by itself. Also, at 60% efficiency, Miasma costs 105 Energy, meaning that even if you don't go for Flow/Primed Flow, you'd still have Energy left over from casting the ability twice. Every single thing you said about Saryn here is either wrong, or a gross misrepresentation of how she functions. It is ridiculous to pretend that Saryn falls off at later levels when she is in fact known for being an incredibly potent nuke frame even there, which is why she's one of the best frames for ESO. It's this kind of repeated disinformation that I think makes it all the worth arguing in favor of nerfing Saryn, because it's clear that the only people defending her at this point are a vocal minority of players with obvious vested interests. Moreover, these same players seem perfectly happy with the idea of enjoying themselves at the expense of their teammates, and there even appears to be a sense of entitlement in doing so. Nerfing Saryn could effectively make her less toxic in every respect, right down to the attitude she seems to encourage among a tiny subset of her community.

[SqualZell]

42 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

34m is one of the largest radii for any ability, and that's just the radius per spore

Nope, this is not true, look again at volt, rhino, oberon's abilities they go 50+

43 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Also, isn't it a bad idea to put Strength into a Spore Saryn anyway?

increases base damage to 41.2 per second (from 10) , damage increase per enemy to 8.24 (from 2), status chance to 100% (from 50%) and reduces reset decay to 4.85% (from 20%)

 

45 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Her damage automatically ramps up, so it is in fact one of the few damage sources in the game that does scale up by itself.

does not ramp up automatically, it requires maintenance. your spores will start to decay 20% after 0.5 seconds that you don't have a spore ticking damage (have you played her?) 

 

49 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Also, at 60% efficiency, Miasma costs 105 Energy, meaning that even if you don't go for Flow/Primed Flow, you'd still have Energy left over from casting the ability twice.

yep... 2 Miasmas... so I guess you need to move and find some energy ASAP cuz you are a sitting duck unable to cast anything else! good luck keeping the spores up so your ticker doesn't drop 20%  every 0.5 seconds. (because somehow you think strength is useless)

 

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It is ridiculous to pretend that Saryn falls off at later levels when she is in fact known for being an incredibly potent nuke frame even there, which is why she's one of the best frames for ESO.

yup, you definitely haven't played her at high levels... she is one of the best frames to have because she rips armor (support) and not because she does nuke damage. 

 

55 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Nerfing Saryn could effectively make her less toxic in every respect

It would make her obsolete, nerf Saryn and you will never see her anywhere else other than Hydron for the MR Mastery fodder. 

 

 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

Nope, this is not true, look again at volt, rhino, oberon's abilities they go 50+

I did specify that it was one of the longest ability radii in the game, not the absolute longest, so you may want to read what I wrote a little better next time. Second, the radial abilities on those frames are all one-offs: unlike Saryn's Spores, which can be made to spread indefinitely, these abilities do not spread outside of their initial cast. At best, Volt's 4 has a discharge radius. It is therefore disingenuous in the extreme to pretend that Saryn has a shorter range of influence than the likes of Oberon, Rhino or Volt.

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

increases base damage to 41.2 per second (from 10) , damage increase per enemy to 8.24 (from 2), status chance to 100% (from 50%) and reduces reset decay to 4.85% (from 20%)

This does not answer the question. Saryn's damage ramps up, and if it ramps up too quickly enemies may die before the plague can spread. Anyone who plays Saryn knows this. Perhaps this is why you're having trouble maintaining Spores without the help of teammates?

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

does not ramp up automatically, it requires maintenance. your spores will start to decay 20% after 0.5 seconds that you don't have a spore ticking damage (have you played her?) 

Taken directly from the wiki:

Quote

When the outbreak first begins, damage per second starts at 6 / 8 / 8 / 10  Corrosive damage; for every second Spores remain active, damage per second increases by 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 2  Corrosive damage per infected enemy, up to a damage growth cap of 7 infected enemies. Current damage per second is uniform across all active spores and will apply to newly infected enemies.

So the damage does, in fact, ramp up automatically, and only decays if no enemies are infected (which only happens if one plays so badly that one forgets to recast Spores at all). Even the quote you pulled noted the damage increase, so trying to pretend otherwise does not reflect positively upon the honesty of your position in this argument, or your knowledge or experience of Saryn (have you played her?).

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

yep... 2 Miasmas... so I guess you need to move and find some energy ASAP cuz you are a sitting duck unable to cast anything else! good luck keeping the spores up so your ticker doesn't drop 20%  every 0.5 seconds. (because somehow you think strength is useless)

Oh yes, I forgot Energy was so difficult to obtain in this game. It's not like there are consumables that can be activated on-demand to provide hundreds of points of energy per second, or a universally equippable passive that can be used to provide significant amounts of energy regeneration on demand...

Also, all of this presumes that you are in fact not using Flow or Primed Flow in a negative efficiency build, which comes across as very strange: would you mind sharing your build? If you're building for negative efficiency, aren't compensating for it with increased max energy or energy restores, and are still struggling to kill enemies or spread your plague, chances are the problem may not lie with Saryn, so much as some pretty severe issues with the way you're building and playing her. 

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

yup, you definitely haven't played her at high levels... she is one of the best frames to have because she rips armor (support) and not because she does nuke damage. 

This is a rather silly statement to make when Saryn is known for being the uncontested queen of ESO, and so because of her kill potential, not her supporting capabilities. She certainly has both supporting and nuking capabilities, but she is a potent kill frame even at high levels, as others have pointed out. Again, it is not a particularly effective tactic to pretend that Saryn is underpowered when everyone here has at the very least seen her in action, if not played her outright, which is incidentally why threads like these have been appearing regularly since her rework.

1 hour ago, SqualZell said:

It would make her obsolete, nerf Saryn and you will never see her anywhere else other than Hydron for the MR Mastery fodder. 

Why? How can you say this to balance chances you know strictly nothing about? Again, this only lends further credence to what's been said about opponents to Saryn nerfs being an overly vocal minority, because you're catastrophizing the mere possibility of Saryn receiving literally any nerf, no matter how big or small, or which part of her it'd target. This isn't the measured opinion of someone who's conducted a proper analysis, let alone testing, of a specific, concrete change, this is the knee-jerk reaction of an individual who's trained themselves to shout the loudest just to have their way. You're not even shouting at anything in particular here, you're just inventing lots of different ways of saying you really, really don't want Saryn to get nerfed or changed. I get it, it's not fun to have one's beloved frame get touched, particularly when they're doing exceptionally well, but the reality is that you are not the only person playing Warframe, and neither are the handful of people on here shouting down criticism of her. All of us here play Warframe, and all of us have had to deal with at least one instance of Saryn sucking the fun out of a mission by mass-killing enemies over long distances and through walls, turning the map into an empty series of corridors for everyone else to walk through. It's not healthy, and because this is the way Saryn's current design encourages her to play, it needs to change, otherwise it will continue negatively impacting on the experience of players, and the game as a whole.

[Gurpgork]

The AoE to impact ratio of abilities in Warframe is heinously out of whack, and Saryn's a pretty prime example of that. It pretty much just follows logic and common sense that abilities that can potentially have a literal mapwide AoE probably shouldn't also deal enormous damage and have a ridiculous amount of utility. Spores (and every other ability in the game) reasonably should really only be able to accomplish one or the other; either it should be a mapwide pandemic, or it should be a monstrous DPS machine, but it really shouldn't be both. 

Personally, I think that the most powerful, highest damage, most impactful abilities in the game should be relatively limited in their AoE. This won't necessarily mean that nobody will ever be able to score top kills in a mission by a massive margin, more that players who do are able to do so because they have a grasp of enemy spawns and pathing and know how to make use of their mobility to get to the enemies first, not because they picked Saryn and you didn't. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Gurpgork

[SqualZell]

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So the damage does, in fact, ramp up automatically, and only decays if no enemies are infected (which only happens if one plays so badly that one forgets to recast Spores at all). Even the quote you pulled noted the damage increase, so trying to pretend otherwise does not reflect positively upon the honesty of your position in this argument, or your knowledge or experience of Saryn (have you played her?).

you have never played Saryn please stop. play her first, then come back and tell me how easy it is to always keep spores up (remember you got 2.5 seconds before you lose ALL your stacks at base strength) 

25 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

It pretty much just follows logic and common sense that abilities that can potentially have a literal mapwide AoE

it can't. (the pre-revamp saryn could) the present Saryn can't. spores will only spread if the creature is killed by another source (if they die because of the spore damage it won't spread)

 

36 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a rather silly statement to make when Saryn is known for being the uncontested queen of ESO,

source? and the reason why she is the queen? ARMOR RIPPING! 

39 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

to pretend that Saryn is underpowered

never said that, Saryn is right where she is supposed to be. 

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

which comes across as very strange: would you mind sharing your build? If you're building for negative efficiency, aren't compensating for it with increased max energy or energy restores,

yep, negative efficiency, i can't compensate for max energy or energy restore if i want the godly range and damage you speak of! 
This is my build. 

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

his isn't the measured opinion of someone who's conducted a proper analysis

you haven't even played her, so your opinion isn't really properly analyzed.

52 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This does not answer the question. Saryn's damage ramps up, and if it ramps up too quickly enemies may die before the plague can spread. Anyone who plays Saryn knows this. Perhaps this is why you're having trouble maintaining Spores without the help of teammates?

4

OH? i thought saryn was OP??? press 4 and clear map? or we ecan't have too much damage... make up your mind. is she a map clear or do we need to lower her damage so we ... wait for it.... actively maintain it and in reality you can't clear a whole map with staying stil. 

[Dabnician]

Thanks everyone for the walls of text no one will read, You all could have just simply said "we need better match making" , the issues is MR25 "vets" going into matches with MR 0-5 new players and face rolling everything.

 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

you have never played Saryn please stop. play her first, then come back and tell me how easy it is to always keep spores up (remember you got 2.5 seconds before you lose ALL your stacks at base strength)

This is a rather interesting case of lashing out when pressed just a little on the specifics of Saryn. Did I strike a nerve? Because as it stands I have cited facts better than you (you apparently didn't realize Saryn's 1 damage ramped up on its own), and pointed inconsistencies in your own listed playstyle, as many of the claims you've made don't quite seem to mesh with reality. This is also all ignoring common experience all of us have had with Saryn players, who are usually capable of spreading their plague just fine.

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

it can't. (the pre-revamp saryn could) the present Saryn can't. spores will only spread if the creature is killed by another source (if they die because of the spore damage it won't spread)

Hmm, if only Saryn had a radial AoE nuke that she could activate on demand to deal damage to enemies through walls, perhaps even increased damage to enemies affected by Spores... 🤔

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

source? and the reason why she is the queen? ARMOR RIPPING! 

Source: actually playing Warframe. Also: no. Saryn's armor stripping certainly helps, but she is the queen of ESO because she can kill everyone on the map extremely quickly, thanks to Spores and Miasma mainly. She doesn't just sit by the sidelines and only enable kills, she gets most of the kills herself, as one would observe by playing any round of ESO with a competent Saryn. Let's not delude ourselves too much here.

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

never said that, Saryn is right where she is supposed to be. 

You're acting like Saryn runs out of energy in 2 casts of Miasma, an ability that costs less than most other 4 abilities, somehow cannot build properly without putting herself at some severe disadvantage, and barely has any control over her plague or damage falloff. Ultimately, all of this looks like it can be chalked down to simply building/playing Saryn wrong, but if one were to believe you, Saryn would really be struggling as a frame, when she clearly isn't.

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

yep, negative efficiency, i can't compensate for max energy or energy restore if i want the godly range and damage you speak of! 
This is my build. 

As I suspected, that build is utterly terrible. For starters, drop the Augur Secrets, you really don't need that much power strength, and replace it with Primed Flow. Second, replace Power Drift with Cunning Drift: you seem to have trouble maintaining your plague (because you're killing enemies too quickly), but also seem to have trouble spreading it, so the increased ability range would help. Replace Vitality with Quick Thinking, you'll get significantly better survivability. I'm guessing you didn't put in Primed Continuity because you don't have it yet.

Put simply, you tunnel-visioned way, way too hard into power strength, and don't appear to understand the power behind the Primed Flow/QT synergy, causing you to die too frequently, while also killing enemies way too fast with Spores and not being able to cast abilities consistently enough to maintain your plague. It is therefore not surprising that you'd consider proper plague management on Saryn to be borderline impossible. Not only does this demonstrate a severe and fundamental misunderstanding of how Saryn works, it also perplexes me that you'd insist upon such a build when a quick Google search can give you a dozen better builds that all follow a consistent set of core elements, which you don't have here. Also, you didn't take a direct in-game screenshot, because... ?

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

you haven't even played her, so your opinion isn't really properly analyzed.

Except I have, and my opinion is supported by hard facts that I linked directly. Every single thing I said can be easily verified, e.g. Miasma's mana cost, the commonness of her 1 builds on the internet, etc., whereas your own claims, e.g. "Saryn can't manage her plague on her own", or "Saryn will become obsolete no matter what if she gets nerfed", are not only opinion, they're opinion that's wholly unfounded (and, in some cases, very obviously wrong).

1 minute ago, SqualZell said:

OH? i thought saryn was OP??? press 4 and clear map? or we ecan't have too much damage... make up your mind. is she a map clear or do we need to lower her damage so we ... wait for it.... actively maintain it and in reality you can't clear a whole map with staying stil. 

I'm sorry, what? The very simple point being made, which your build shows you clearly do not understand in the slightest, is that there is such a thing as too much damage on Saryn, if her Spores ramp up their damage too quickly. Built and played competently, Saryn can mass-murder high level enemies and control her plague well enough to keep it alive and spreading. What even are you saying? Are you asking to nerf Saryn's damage?

[Gurpgork]

6 hours ago, SqualZell said:

it can't. (the pre-revamp saryn could) the present Saryn can't. spores will only spread if the creature is killed by another source (if they die because of the spore damage it won't spread)

Or if you hit an enemy affected by Spores with your weapon while Toxic Lash is active. 

Sure, maybe it can't spread itself anymore, but it's still trivially easy to spread it over a tremendous area, and it ignores line of sight. So we can debate the semantics of what constitutes "effectively mapwide," but the point still stands that Spores has too much power for an ability with as much area effect as it has. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Gurpgork

[Mach25]

On 2018-12-05 at 12:43 PM, MirageKnight said:

Then why is it that most of the time people see her in confined maps / missions? 

Hint: It's because she can clear those maps with ridiculous speed.

I'm not sure who it was, either you or someone else, but someone suggested making Saryn's miasma/spore damage be non-lethal to where it will bring enemies down to 1 point of health at maximum. I thought that was a great idea to where all players could remain engaged while retaining her ability to be effective.

While we're discussing Saryn, Volt needs to be taken a look at - he can do even more damage than Saryn with his fourth ability right now if modded properly and having 3 people with corrosive projection on or having Saryn strip that armor.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Mach25
Clarity

[SqualZell]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

As I suspected, that build is utterly terrible. For starters, drop the Augur Secrets, you really don't need that much power strength, and replace it with Primed Flow. Second, replace Power Drift with Cunning Drift: you seem to have trouble maintaining your plague (because you're killing enemies too quickly), but also seem to have trouble spreading it, so the increased ability range would help. Replace Vitality with Quick Thinking, you'll get significantly better survivability. I'm guessing you didn't put in Primed Continuity because you don't have it yet.

those changes that you suggested are great for star chart missions, you don't need much strength to kill enemies because they are weak as paper, so you can afford to slow down the damage and be able to keep up the spread, 

however... 

once you reach higher level enemies 100-300-500... yeah, strength is no longer important for the power, but for sustaining your tick meter. 

 check this guy's build. not the same as mine, but similar. 

so yes, your suggestions are great... for starchart missions/relics/invasions/alerts. but for everything else? yeah....

so nerf saryn.... yup lets make her obsolete... just because you don't like to see her in your noob missions...

when I'm farming relics and mats in the star chart, I really don't care if you have the time to have fun. I just want to crack the relic and extract so i can start a new one, 

as a saryn, i see a volt an mbere and an oberon in a axi def relic mission? i know we gonna crack 4-5 relics before your Fun team finishes your lith exterminate.

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

those changes that you suggested are great for star chart missions, you don't need much strength to kill enemies because they are weak as paper, so you can afford to slow down the damage and be able to keep up the spread, 

however... 

once you reach higher level enemies 100-300-500... yeah, strength is no longer important for the power, but for sustaining your tick meter. 

Um, no, those builds work perfectly fine in ESO, which feature level 100+ enemies. I don't exactly see why you'd want to hamper your effectiveness so badly just for the sake of being able to kill level 300+ enemies a little faster, at which point you'd already be better off with the other builds due to the ramp-up.

6 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

 check this guy's build. not the same as mine, but similar. 

LOL.

And with that, you just proved that you have exactly zero understanding of the subject matter, nor do you have any experience playing Saryn as she currently exists. Look at the dates: the Dadefuye video you linked was posted on January 5, 2018. Saryn's newest major rework was released in Update 22.20, on May 17, 2018, with her re-rework following shortly afterwards. Everything you have said in this discussion pertains to a version of Saryn that is no longer in the game. Despite this, you had the gall to attack others for apparently not knowing a thing about Saryn or having any experience playing her. At this point nobody else even has to say anything regarding your credibility in this argument, as you have just proven that you do not even seem to be aware of Saryn's new kit, much less how it works.

6 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

so nerf saryn.... yup lets make her obsolete... just because you don't like to see her in your noob missions...

The irony here is delicious. Putting aside the above, though: why are you so afraid of making Saryn obsolete? Who here is even asking to make her obsolete? Many people are calling for nerfs or reworks, but that nonetheless leaves plenty of wiggle room for her to emerge as a healthier frame. If she finds herself too weak, it would also not be difficult to buff her numbers, so long as she'd be brought to a healthier state of design. You're not simply afraid of Saryn getting nerfed, you're afraid she'd stop being broken, because at the end of the day, you have demonstrated such poor awareness of other players, or just the real world outside of your own opinions, that it is obvious you'd happily have the entire rest of the Warframe community suffer sooner than see something you like get changed. Why then should anyone here give your feelings any more consideration?

[SqualZell]

2 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Well - aren't you presumptuous? Have you actually seen this player in action?

I'll take a educated guess and say no.

He's killed 207 enemies with Saryn and 176 with Saryn prime (basically just leveled it up in hydron)

/profile username gets a lot of info on the player

[SqualZell]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And with that, you just proved that you have exactly zero understanding of the subject matter, nor do you have any experience playing Saryn as she currently exists. Look at the dates: the Dadefuye video you linked was posted on January 5, 2018. Saryn's newest major rework was released in Update 22.20, on May 17, 2018, with her re-rework following shortly afterwards. Everything you have said in this discussion pertains to a version of Saryn that is no longer in the game. Despite this, you had the gall to attack others for apparently not knowing a thing about Saryn or having any experience playing her. At this point nobody else even has to say anything regarding your credibility in this argument, as you have just proven that you do not even seem to be aware of Saryn's new kit, much less how it works.

3

you know what!?!?! you are correct!

i take back everything i said

I don't know how to play Saryn, you win!

nerf her.. ill just switch to Volt Equinox or oberon

I'll see you in the next thread about nerfing them too right? 

[Teridax68]

16 minutes ago, SqualZell said:

you know what!?!?! you are correct!

i take back everything i said

I don't know how to play Saryn, you win!

nerf her.. ill just switch to Volt Equinox or oberon

I'll see you in the next thread about nerfing them too right? 

I mean, Volt and Equinox both have a problem of being able to kill enemies through walls with always-on abilities, so I would in fact like to see both get changed to remedy that, but in Equinox's case at the very least I think she needs a rework that improves her quality of life, as her kit isn't perfectly functional right now (she's often railroaded into just one form, mainly due to the way her 4 charge gets lost on form switch). Hopefully, though, if you plead their case, hopefully you won't accuse others of not knowing how the play the frame, while simultaneously relying on outdated videos for your own play. 😛

[000l000]

Le 01/12/2018 à 05:01, (XB1)Knight Raime a dit :

It's not a coop game.  People do not work together in the average mission.  It's merely 4 players playing in the same space.

Game is definitely coop, one can only blame players here. They can't stand anything and don't care about anything either. Most of the time i'm playing with my wife only and everything's fine. When she can't play it's a different story though, and not necessarily a pleasant experience tbh.

I don't think that coop games fit much people's mentality these days anyway.

[SqualZell]

18 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

while simultaneously relying on outdated videos for your own play

that build still works at end game, I understand how Saryn works (just been using an outdated build), but I still don't think to nerf it is the solution to the noobs not being able to kill anything. 

this game is grindy enough, killing things and having fun during the beginning of your warframe carreer is ok. but where i'm at (and you at MR26 should understand) that clearing > killing. 

a gentlemen (or lass) between our walls of texts said it right. We need to fix the matchmaking. so MR16 MR26 and MR05 don't get put together except when there is no other option. 

Still, I would encourage you to play saryn (i'm sure an MR26 like you has all the mods and ressources to upgrade her properly. give her a try. see how "easy" it is to clear maps as the OP suggests.

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, SqualZell said:

that build still works at end game, I understand how Saryn works (just been using an outdated build), but I still don't think to nerf it is the solution to the noobs not being able to kill anything. 

But it clearly doesn't work, as noted by your perceived difficulty in maintaining and spreading your plague. Framing the issue as one of "noobs not being able to kill anything", apart from being a not-so-subtle attempt to disparage the people you're arguing with, doesn't make any sense either, because ultimately the problem isn't one of skill, so much as it being physically impossible to get kills in the presence of a competent Saryn unless one also uses a frame capable of killing enemies through walls. Put another way, I don't think it's worth avoiding a nerf or rework for the sake of noobs who don't know how to abuse her current kit.

8 hours ago, SqualZell said:

this game is grindy enough, killing things and having fun during the beginning of your warframe carreer is ok. but where i'm at (and you at MR26 should understand) that clearing > killing. 

... why? I strongly disagree with this, and at MR26 I still find killing incredibly fun and satisfying. By contrast, I don't find killing masses of enemies I don't even know of with the press of a single button to be satisfying at all, much less walking through an empty map when it's a teammate doing so. What you are trying to tell me is that Warframe's core gameplay loop of combat and parkour is somehow not fun or desirable to you, an opinion that you're entitled to, but certainly don't get to pretend is the general consensus. For sure, clearing the map with a frame like Saryn is optimal over killing each individual enemy, but that is precisely the issue: it is currently optimal to engage in modes of play that are less engaging than others, which means that players are naturally pushed to engage in playstyles that are more likely to bore them and burn them out of the game. There's a reason many veteran players complain that the game gets boring with overgeared frames and builds, and that's because at that point mass murder becomes such a trivial thing to accomplish that playing missions ceases to be fun.

8 hours ago, SqualZell said:

a gentlemen (or lass) between our walls of texts said it right. We need to fix the matchmaking. so MR16 MR26 and MR05 don't get put together except when there is no other option. 

I mean, that could certainly help avoid any high-MR player barrelling through a mission while a MR1 player's still running around without knowing of the bullet jump move, but not only does this not address the problem (there'd still be frames that make missions less interesting to play for everyone), it risks fragmenting the playerbase, which is the absolute last thing one would want in a multiplayer game. High-level players should be able to play alongside low-level players, not simply so that low-level players can physically see a goal they can strive towards, but also so that these two types of players can connect, with the more experienced player mentoring the newcomer. There is simply no good reason to prevent portions of your playerbase from seeing each other, apart from protecting certain people from a system that features way too much power creep, and when that's the real reason, that's what should be addressed directly.

8 hours ago, SqualZell said:

Still, I would encourage you to play saryn (i'm sure an MR26 like you has all the mods and ressources to upgrade her properly. give her a try. see how "easy" it is to clear maps as the OP suggests.

Sure, but whether or not I have millions of kills as Saryn is irrelevant, since it is common knowledge that Saryn is able to spawn, maintain and spread a plague, and can do so self-sufficiently. I have seen Saryns do this on many occasions, so even if the act of doing so may be more difficult than I'd imagine, it is nonetheless possible, and the result is inevitably a less interactive mission.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Game is definitely coop, one can only blame players here. They can't stand anything and don't care about anything either. Most of the time i'm playing with my wife only and everything's fine. When she can't play it's a different story though, and not necessarily a pleasant experience tbh.

I don't think that coop games fit much people's mentality these days anyway.

I disagree partially.  I can agree that coop games as a general thing ( or couch games here) have fallen to the wayside in popularity for awhile now.  Though i'll have to disagree about this game being a coop game.  It lets you play with others, and there are some pieces of content that are designed to have multiple people involved.  But my argument against it being a coop game is based on the continuing rise of individual player power, and the fact that frames (which are a key part of the games design) are not designed to work with each other.  We don't get any cool synergies that are encouraged/intentional or rewarded for it.  Abilities often over write eachother rather than working together.  The closest thing we get to actual team work is support based frames.  But then again support is largely irrelevant when players can self sustain very well in a variety of ways.

So I suppose one could call the game a coop game in the barest of terms.  But in my mind a coop game puts emphasis on it.  My favorite "phrase" for this has always been warframe is a game where 4 players play in the same area,  not 4 players playing together.  Im not inherently against DE abandoning how the game currently is to basically push the game into a proper coop experience.  (where synergies are aplenty and working together is encouraged and rewarded.)  But I don't really see that happening.  I feel like there would be a lot different about this game if DE actually expected players to work together.  But because it's not needed at all for anything in the game I don't find the argument of it being a coop game a very strong one.

[BiTrektual]

On 2018-12-05 at 12:43 PM, MirageKnight said:

This is far too true. And DE is enabling this by allowing certain 'Frames to continue to be "efficient", despite other players complaining about how they're being robbed of their ability to have fun.

I'm afraid that the commuity's slpit on that. Honestly I'v played this game for well over 1500 hours between my two accounts, and spending much of this time as a solo player, some of the farming that I'v had to do is beyond boring. I love the game, but the monotony of some of the stuff is ridiculous. Case in point, farming focus. To even entertain the idea of getting the tree maxed somewhat quickly you have to either run eidolon captures which after the chroma nerf is a nightmare solo; or run saryn in sanctuary onslaught. Imo its the communities way of adapting to what DE throws at us, and it will happen even if all frames are reduced to pre rework Mag after her polarize got nerfed into the ground.  

[Mach25]

For Brevity's sake, I'll compress this thread with some select quotes ending with a proposed solution. The Dilemma:

29 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

We only want 'Frames to play well with each other because this is supposed to be, first and foremost, a coop game and every player should be able to contribute to a mission in a meaningful way and have fun.

29 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

If your fun winds up preventing someone else from having fun, then something is very wrong and needs to be fixed.

 

Explanation and confirmation:

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

These I think are the two core paragraphs that summarize the "nerf/rework Saryn" part of the debate. From the many people who have posted here, most of us aren't asking for changes to Saryn because we hate her specifically, or her players, but because she is one of several frames with at least one ability that simply does not work in a multiplayer environment such as Warframe's. Her core theme of spreading and managing a plague is phenomenal, and should stay, but her ability to kill enemies through walls, and over large distances...comes at a significant cost to the enjoyment other players can have from a mission. It's not fair for three players in a team to be reduced to the role of a spectator, simply because one other player is using their warframe optimally..

 

Proposed solution:

On 2018-12-05 at 2:17 PM, Mach25 said:

I'm not sure who it was, either you or someone else, but someone suggested making Saryn's miasma/spore damage be non-lethal to where it will bring enemies down to 1 point of health at maximum. I thought that was a great idea to where all players could remain engaged while retaining Saryn's ability to be effective.

 

 

[MirageKnight]

1 hour ago, Sheady117 said:

Imo its the communities way of adapting to what DE throws at us,

That's definitely a fair point and I agree. I honestly believe if the grind wasn't so mind-numbing-ly and arbitrarily tedious at times, there wouldn't be as much of a need to exploit the game as much as possible to help alleviate the monotony as you put it.

It still doesn't justify allowing an ability (or combination of abilities) to continue to be stupidly overpowered or exploitable to the extent that other players have to suffer due to someone else's need to "beat the game" or feel superior. That needs to be addressed for sure.

The tedious amount of grind needed for focus farming really needs to be addressed as well. However, I feel that's something that ought to be left for a different topic, don't you think?