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What if Stalker combat is done with Conclave abilities and mods rather than PvE abilities and mods?


BrazilianJoe
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It is known that PvE in the game has scaling issues. 
But there has also been a large effort by DE to implement alternative abilities to fit the envelope of PvP combat in the Conclave. 

Now, given that Stalker is a Warframe, what if the weapon damage and abilities of the players, when affecting him, would have the Conclave effects and damage calculation instead of the PvE calculation and effects? 

Suddenly there would be no more OHKOs and the fight would last more.

I think this would be one interesting thing to see implemented for an additional challenge, at least on the Shadow Stalker version. Or maybe nightmare missions? If it works, it could be a preparation/balance act for the "stalker mode" gameplay.

To be celar, if there are enemies on the map at the same time as Stalker (there usually are), the weapons and abilities would still affect enemies with normal PvE calculation. Only the Stalker would use Conclave rules.

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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6 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

Suddenly there would be no more OHKOs and the fight would last more.

If the Stalker only has the stats that Conclave would have, will it make much difference?

  • It would be complicated. Given that some frames are not even allowed to use the same abilities between the two modes (ignoring health, shields etc which are also reduced). How do you work out the damage/effect of an ability we cannot use in Conclave (or weapons/frames that are not currently available)?

Or are we only talking damage, and ignoring the rest?

  • If this is the case, and both stalker and player are affected, it will lengthen the fight, it will not necessarily do anything else.

I see no value in extending the duration of the fight just for the sake of it. It would be more of an annoyance than anything else.

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Sure there would be a balancing act with the health pools. because there would be both mods active at once. 
Also, Stalker would require to be balanced towards Conclave stats, which he currently isn't.

But Conclave is the PvP balancing that we have currently on Warframe, and if Stalker mode is to come around, It's worth at least exploring the applicability of the Conclave balance in the PvE missions when Stalker shows up. Of course it won't be a flat-out dump the Conclave mode as-is, but it is a starting point. 

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Just now, BrazilianJoe said:

Excalibur Umbra.

I also like to write unrelated objects as an answer.

"Since we know that Australia is a planet..."

"It's not..."

"JUPITER!"

Yes, Excalibur Umbra is a Warframe. Stalker is not Excalibur Prime. Stalker is a Lower Guard, a completely different military category than the Warframes.

 

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Provided that any player stalker stuff stays in the conclave ghetto with the rest of the PvP crap, I don't care what it does. The only response a player stalker would get from me is an immediate alt-F4 because I play in solo mode - someone else joining indicates that the game has sprung a defect and needs to be restarted.

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It'd be horrible.

So basically a player would be mid mission fighting enemies, then when stalker spawns in suddenly they would lose nearly all their power, and possibly their weapons (as many weapons cannot be used in Conclave).

If they've never played Conclave they would now be 100% confused as to why their abilities work completely differently, why one or more of their weapons vanished, & why their weapon that did remain is weak.

It wouldn't work.

Basically the mode would be penalising/punishing players for not forcing themselves to PVP.

It just doesn't work out in the log run.

Many PVE mods also do NOT have a Conclave version.

Additionally many weapons would become useless without their PVE mods.

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It is never explained anywhere what is the true nature of the lower Guard on his Codex. It is just a label that can be applied to just about anything - but it have never been elaborated on, lore-wise. It is just a name-drop which can be elaborated upon later by DE, when they really figure ou what they want it to be.

Lower Guard can be the Cephalons that take care of the Warframes. Or just Warframes of lower rank. Or the mercenaries which fought in the war. Or something completely different which has not shown up in the lore at all, aside from the name-drop. It is also said from a personal perspective, so things the character does not know about, or mental confusion/brainwashing, could be hiding important facts.

 

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Stalker mode is one of those things that just strikes me as a great idea, on paper but there is no realistic way to make it work in practice. 

However you go about trying to balance it the PC Stalker is either going to be way too powerful or way too weak at any given time.  

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Just now, BrazilianJoe said:

It is never explained anywhere what is the true nature of the lower Guard on his Codex. It is just a label that can be applied to just about anything - but it have never been elaborated on, lore-wise. It is just a name-drop which can be elaborated upon later by DE, when they really figure ou what they want it to be.

Lower Guard can be the Cephalons that take care of the Warframes. Or just Warframes of lower rank. Or the mercenaries which fought in the war. Or something completely different which has not shown up in the lore at all, aside from the name-drop. It is also said from a personal perspective, so things the character does not know about, or mental confusion/brainwashing, could be hiding important facts.

 

My gut tells me. That like Silvana (Silver Grove) & the Unum he may have been a regular Orokin who did a 1 time Transference to a Warframe.

So he's trapped as "The Stalker" although I feel a better Narrative would be for him to be a Tenno. Just a reject (like how Rell was cast out), except he rejected The Tenno & The Lotus instead of it being the other way around.

Lastly, I think the best & closest well get to playing Stalker post Sacrifice is that we'll have a quest where players pull an Excalibur Umbra & so the Stalker, bring him peace, release his hate & he finally joins our side & is a playable Warframe.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

It'd be horrible.

So basically a player would be mid mission fighting enemies, then when stalker spawns in suddenly they would lose nearly all their power, and possibly their weapons (as many weapons cannot be used in Conclave).

If they've never played Conclave they would now be 100% confused as to why their abilities work completely differently, why one or more of their weapons vanished, & why their weapon that did remain is weak.

It wouldn't work.

Basically the mode would be penalising/punishing players for not forcing themselves to PVP.

It just doesn't work out in the log run.

Many PVE mods also do NOT have a Conclave version.

Additionally many weapons would become useless without their PVE mods.

You say horrible, I say "a new challenger approaches"!

The game needs constant introduction of new challenges, or players get bored and leave.

Revitalizing old content can be a cost-effective way to rekindle interest, and the content does not have to be fully built from scratch. 

I what I can agree that is somewhat horrible is locking down Conclave mods to the as-of-today aging Conclave mode. There should be alternative ways to acquire those mods, or alternative ways to acquire Conclave reputation, to acquire the mods. Stalker mode using  Conclave rules could be also a gateway to acquire Conclave reputation to purchase those mods, and he could drop some as well. 

As for not all mods existing in Conclave, that is exactly the point. Do away with the broken scaling of the PvE mods and level the field, while at the same time not invalidating them completely for the big chunk of content where we use them. Conclave mods are much more modest in their power increases.

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17 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Stalker is a Lower Guard, a completely different military category than the Warframes.

Tho hunhow's quote to stalker " 'am i one of these wretched things?' you know the answer, you still hate them"bimplies that stalker is a either a sentient warframe, a tenno, or used to be a tenno (either way, similar enough). Though you could say hunhow may have been talking about how we used to share the same side so it's still very open for interpretation imo.

 

On topic. This could bring balance but godknows how hard it is for them to code :

a. Explicitly separating a unit's damage calculation so abruptly mid session

b. Implementing pvp balance to pve exclusive mods

 

it's probably easier to just make our damages turn into percentage instead of modded numbers (excluding utility mods like reload speed and such).

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Just now, BrazilianJoe said:

You say horrible, I say "a new challenger approaches"!

The game needs constant introduction of new challenges, or players get bored and leave.

Revitalizing old content can be a cost-effective way to rekindle interest, and the content does not have to be fully built from scratch. 

I what I can agree that is somewhat horrible is locking down Conclave mods to the as-of-today aging Conclave mode. There should be alternative ways to acquire those mods, or alternative ways to acquire Conclave reputation, to acquire the mods. Stalker mode using  Conclave rules could be also a gateway to acquire Conclave reputation to purchase those mods, and he could drop some as well. 

As for not all mods existing in Conclave, that is exactly the point. Do away with the broken scaling of the PvE mods and level the field, while at the same time not invalidating them completely for the big chunk of content where we use them. Conclave mods are much more modest in their power increases.

Yes but that is because PVP & PVE are seperated. Otherwise the game will enter the same spiral many other MMOs & MMO-Lite games were trapped in.

IE: 1 change to fix PVP breaks PVE, 1 change in PVE breaks PVP.

To do away with the PVE mods would be to rebuild the game with PVP in mind. Which doesn't help character growth or keep players invested.

(See Destiny 2 Year 1 for more information.)

Conclave mods are more modest because Conclave is also a different mindset. It isn't about how to clear a room, how to CC an seemingly endless tide of foes. Conckave being PVP also changes combat to be more about stunning, rooting, & etc.

Even status procs work different in Conclave.

To cut to it. What you want is somewhat similar to a suggestion I suggested ages ago to DE.

Conclave often involves restricting movement so that a killing blow can be landed. Those mods just don't work in PVE in the long run.

Also, many Conclave Warframe changes homogenize Warframe abilities due to

Then there is the weapon issue....as not all weapons can be used.

Now if we kept both sets then how would you go about teaching players, specifically new players that they now need 2 sets of mods.

1 for the game, and 1 for this very rare event that transpire once every lunar eclipse.

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Ermmm... IDK. Does it mean I will have to PvP to understand how Conclave works? Frame abilties, movement, weapons are different, yes? I have no idea how to mod Conclave loadout. And I will have to farm Conclave standing or LUA Sentients to get my hands on mods? But what if I do not want to PVP?

What if Stalker is a Specter? Like Rail Guardians?

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I am not proposing to do away with PvE. I am proposing to have one single character with a 2.5% chance to appear in a mission if you are marked for hunt to follow the PvP rules, for the sake of introducing a new challenge and expand the lore. 

Given that Stalker mode as a gameplay mode is something that is awaited by many players for quite some time, associating it with the PvP mods only makes sense in this context as well.

By giving alternative ways to acquire Conclave mods, like Stalker giving Conclave reputation, it also makes mods more accessible and popular. 

Players already know Conclave mode uses different mods. Gameplay changes are communicated the same way they have always been, by Developer Workshops. There's always a learning curve.

Although some of the points are valid concerns, I don't see any of these as impediments or "too hard to solve".

I would very much like to see if it works.

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So basically your idea is "Hey, lets force players to farm up a second set of mods and always put in conclave builds onto every weapon and frame that they ever make!  Even if they never play any conclave at all!  And as for new players who don't know about that?  Well screw them!!!"
Because that's essentially what it looks like its boiling down to.

Further there are large problems with this:
-What about weapons that have different fire-rates in PvP vs PvE?  How will that work?
-What about weapons that can't be used in PvP?
-What about operators?  AFAIK they can't be used in PvP at all...
-What about melee stances?   Since no PvE stance mods can be used in PvP what will happen?  And how jarring will it be for your melee combos to suddenly change with zero warning
-What about warframe mods?  Especially since a large majority of them simply don't exist in PvP?  Think for instance if you don't have hastened steps....and now your frame suddenly slows down quite a bit because Armored Agility or Rush stopped working.

You're basically saying "Hey, lets suddenly throw everything sideways and make everything suddenly work differently and behave utterly differently than players are used to, with absolutely zero warning!"

Sorry, but that's not a good idea.
It definitely wouldn't improve anything.  All you're doing is saying "Hey, now you're forced to grind conclave to have any mods to stand a chance against stalker!"
Which is the opposite of what a lot of players want.
We don't want to be forced into playing conclave for when the Stalker comes around.  And I don't think this will go over well with newer players either.

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