Why PVP would benefit DE (not a rework conclave post)

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

 

• Skill gap. Unless you're a natural talent, you can't compete with the regulars. You need to train your muscle memory because it has a very fast-paced arena shooter style gameplay. I don't play Overwatch, but comparing it to that game feels a bit dishonest to me when I look at the speed in the footage.
  • That would be fine if people were actually grouped by skill level. They aren't, and Recruit Conditioning was a joke.
  • It goes both ways, by the way. It's boring to just stomp newcomers, and the really good players didn't have a great time against me either, as I wasn't that much of a challenge.
• Host migrations and host advantage were a thing for a long time, admittedly, but the game quality improved a lot when they introduced dedicated servers. (Two. Years. ago.)
• No one wants to sit in a lobby for several minutes where you can't do anything but wait. That's especially bad when the game decides to put you in a session where you're the only one with the best connection. Was really bad when dedicated servers first got introduced, because random people wanted to be on top of that dumb hosting leaderboard.

Overwatch has a very serious skill ceiling.

Regarding the dedicated servers, they only last as long as the players have interest in hosting. They arent real dedicated servers like those you find in Overwatch (hosted by Blizzard themself) or in Battlefield, CoD or a game such as DayZ, where clans actually rent real dedicated servers that are professionally maintained. Warframe just has a dedicated server setup, but it is still hosted by players on a dedicated machine. Latency issues and other wonkyness will still exsist since I'm fairly certain it is still based around Peer-to-Peer, it is just that the host isnt running a mission while hosting, the machine simply works as a server.

[SneakyErvin]

9 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

 

 

  Hide contents

I said in the other thread: I think some people have professional-grade equipment. It was the case back when, it probably still is. Dedicated servers only have to host 8 people here.

See how we went from having no dedicated servers to having no good dedicated servers?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

When people talk about dedicated servers they talk about dedicated servers. Not whatever duct tape version we have here, because that is all that it is in its current state. It doesnt really matter if it is 8, 12, 16, 24, 50 or 100. It will never be on par when it is run by players and not professionals. There is a reason people rent servers in games and not host them on their own. I also fail to see the skill or charm in WF PvP, there is too much of a stat weight on it all and not enough skill.

The video you posted, along with several others just look like a twitchy poorly designed mess. There is a reason why conclave isnt popular, a reason why it only attracts an extremely small fraction of the active playerbase.

This game will never come to the skill based levels of OW, CS:GO, BF, CoD or WoW PvP for that matter.

[RedDirtTrooper]

Amen, brother/sister. I had a ton of fun doing pvp back in Diablo 2, but it wasn't a serious pvp game, and it was never going to be.

[MJ12]

13 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Yeah PVP brings a level of toxicity that's just inherent, its human nature, especially with the anonymity with the internet.

 

And I hear, and I agree with you. 

 

PVE games should stay PVE if its their core and PVP should stay PVP.

 

I remember this MMO ish like League mode that they tried out for League of Legends and it was quite boring. League of legends champion kits are just horrible to do it and not exagerating when I literally wanted to sleep when I played through it. Similar to how PVP just doesn't work for Warframe due to kits, stats, and net code and how its designed.

I think a side point which isn't talked about much here is that both LoL and Overwatch spend a lot of effort and money on dealing with people being jerks and toxic behavior, and yet, well, everyone's heard the stories about how their playerbase is basically a gigantic cesspit made of other, smaller, more putrid cesspits. I mean as much as memeing about 'inharmonious chatrooms' is a thing there's a truth to that in how the chat and community environment in PvP games has been pretty toxic in general even since before computer games were a thing.

Everyone's probably heard the stories of how seriously people and parents take high school football. You might not think it's a "PvP game" but it totally is, it's just not played on a computer, and you end up seeing much of the same behavior, moderated only by the fact that if you're too toxic in real life, you can get thrown in jail or punched in the face. Competition can often bring out the worst in people, particularly in environments where the competition 'matters'-and something as small as a number going up makes things matter to people.

11 hours ago, Olphalarepth said:

I can totally understand you believe me but the reasoning is just faulty. PvP is not forced upon players, you don't want to pvp? don't do it. Saying that pvp brings toxicity is just not true and even unfair to some extent.

I despise pvp on games that feature a pve content. We can argue that DE has bigger plans for the game in general but pvp-ers asking for a bone tossed their way have a point since conclave is a joke of a mode, unrewarding, unbalanced and totally not fun. Not saying that it should be the main focus now but DE should at least waste a couple of words to let us know if something is even brewing for the conclave or if they even care for this mode at all because, if so, I'm sure many people would finally put their hopes to rest and focus on the main game since it's unlikely they were playing warframe for the pvp in the first place.

How is it unfair to say that PvP brings toxicity? There's actually been studies on videogame violence which have shown that gore and violence onscreen don't make people more violent, but stressful competitive games do. 

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2011/08/video-games.aspx

And remember, PvP players aren't siloed off in their own game. These attitudes aren't contained, they spread throughout the game's social ecosystem as the PvP players also engage in PvE activities, but their anger and resentment has been activated due to PvP and might well shine through to even those (as it did in the above experiment). Attitudes, good and bad, are contagious.

[TheFinalEpic]

3 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

 

• Skill gap. Unless you're a natural talent, you can't compete with the regulars. You need to train your muscle memory because it has a very fast-paced arena shooter style gameplay. I don't play Overwatch, but comparing it to that game feels a bit dishonest to me when I look at the speed in the footage.
  • That would be fine if people were actually grouped by skill level. They aren't, and Recruit Conditioning was a joke.
  • It goes both ways, by the way. It's boring to just stomp newcomers, and the really good players didn't have a great time against me either, as I wasn't that much of a challenge.
•  

The skill gap you're talking about is literally what match making and rankings are for. Imagine if everyone was "forced" to play PVP right now in Warframe. I'm going to go ahead say you're the top 1 percent of PvPer's in this game. You facing a random person that has never pvped in Warframe would be similar to if me, que'd up and I got put with team mates and enemies at around the bottom 50 percent or bottom 25 percent. Yes I'm going to stomp all "new comers". Since I am the top 1 percent of the game and I know what I'm doing compared to the "casuals" aka the bulk of the ranking player base. From that clip I can see that person has mechanical prowess at Warframe and knows the in and outs of PVP.

 

Here is a real statistic, whether in any PVP games, the lower skill rating you are, the more deaths and the more kills there is in the game. The higher you are, the lower deaths and kills there is in a game. 

 

So if that applies to you, the top 1 percent of Warframe, stomping the bottom 50 percent and 25 percent, yeah you're going to win all the time. YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO. You're not suppose to fight people who are the bottom 50 and 25 percent. Now what happens if you're put against another person whos top 1 percent as you? I'm going to guarantee the same thing happen, alot less kills and a lot less deaths? Why because you're both just going to hop around non stop trying to hit each other and running away from each other. And that will show you inherent flaw in Warframe's PVP system. Why does it show yourself to you? Because any top 1 percent of the player base of any ranking ladder will find it due to all the players having so much prowess and skill in the game.

 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

PvP simply means Player versus Player which is exactly what both those games are about.

Saying those arent PvP games is like saying battlegrounds in MMOs are not PvP because they are essentially just arena battles. All games that involve Player versus Player are PvP games, especially those that only have Player versus Player modes.

The two in question are simply small scale PvP games while something like Arma or BF are large scale and DaoC, GW2 and WaR were/are mass scale PvP games. WoW ends up somewhere in between all of them because it has the options anywhere from arenas up to open world pvp scrappings.

You just cant change the simple meaning of a term because it doesnt fit you. PvP is just Player vs Player, all competative games where two players are activley playing against eachother are effectivly that, PvP.

And the arena shooter idea of PvP is the most accurate to describe what type of PvP we could possibly have in WF and it is pretty much that small scale we already have. But hey, wait a minute. In your mind conclave isnt PvP then because it is a small scale arena?

Oh and yes, Quake and CoD are indeed PvP games because players are fighting other players.

Thank you for explaining that to him/her, I appreciate it

 

3 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

One more thing before I'm done for today: this was linked in one of the other threads. Play it and tell me with a straight face it isn't downright awesome to watch:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I said in the other thread: I think some people have professional-grade equipment. It was the case back when, it probably still is. Dedicated servers only have to host 8 people here.

See how we went from having no dedicated servers to having no good dedicated servers?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Edit: or is that a No True Scotsman? Take your pick.

SnearkyErwin said it well so I'll quote him/her.

 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

When people talk about dedicated servers they talk about dedicated servers. Not whatever duct tape version we have here, because that is all that it is in its current state. It doesnt really matter if it is 8, 12, 16, 24, 50 or 100. It will never be on par when it is run by players and not professionals. There is a reason people rent servers in games and not host them on their own. I also fail to see the skill or charm in WF PvP, there is too much of a stat weight on it all and not enough skill.

The video you posted, along with several others just look like a twitchy poorly designed mess. There is a reason why conclave isnt popular, a reason why it only attracts an extremely small fraction of the active playerbase.

This game will never come to the skill based levels of OW, CS:GO, BF, CoD or WoW PvP for that matter.

 

2 hours ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

Amen, brother/sister. I had a ton of fun doing pvp back in Diablo 2, but it wasn't a serious pvp game, and it was never going to be.

Yeah I think they just want Waframe's PVP to be taken seriously instead of a side show.

 

2 hours ago, MJ12 said:

I think a side point which isn't talked about much here is that both LoL and Overwatch spend a lot of effort and money on dealing with people being jerks and toxic behavior, and yet, well, everyone's heard the stories about how their playerbase is basically a gigantic cesspit made of other, smaller, more putrid cesspits. I mean as much as memeing about 'inharmonious chatrooms' is a thing there's a truth to that in how the chat and community environment in PvP games has been pretty toxic in general even since before computer games were a thing.

Everyone's probably heard the stories of how seriously people and parents take high school football. You might not think it's a "PvP game" but it totally is, it's just not played on a computer, and you end up seeing much of the same behavior, moderated only by the fact that if you're too toxic in real life, you can get thrown in jail or punched in the face. Competition can often bring out the worst in people, particularly in environments where the competition 'matters'-and something as small as a number going up makes things matter to people.

How is it unfair to say that PvP brings toxicity? There's actually been studies on videogame violence which have shown that gore and violence onscreen don't make people more violent, but stressful competitive games do. 

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2011/08/video-games.aspx

And remember, PvP players aren't siloed off in their own game. These attitudes aren't contained, they spread throughout the game's social ecosystem as the PvP players also engage in PvE activities, but their anger and resentment has been activated due to PvP and might well shine through to even those (as it did in the above experiment). Attitudes, good and bad, are contagious.

I know one of my most stressful and violent outbursts are from competitive video games like OW and League, so you have a very good point. Toxicity is innate in these types of games and that research that you link really reaffirms my suspicisions on my theory of toxicity in video games.

[krc473]

7 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

This thread isn't about improving PVP. No where in my post is there a point to improve PVP. Its the opposite, I said the core base of the game that got ported from the PVE component does not work and cannot be improved upon its current broken state, they would need to be a complete remake of the PVP from the ground up, from rewriting net code, server hosted games, and how each warframe abilities work.

And here I thought you could improve something by redoing it...

Regardless, is the point of your thread just to complain? Or was the intention to suggest DE sorts out PvP? I assumed it was the latter. I gather that I was wrong and this is just to complain about PvP/people wanting it improved on the current system.

[-Temp0-]

5 часов назад, Kontrollo сказал:

One more thing before I'm done for today: this was linked in one of the other threads. Play it and tell me with a straight face it isn't downright awesome to watch:

 

  Показать контент

I said in the other thread: I think some people have professional-grade equipment. It was the case back when, it probably still is. Dedicated servers only have to host 8 people here.

See how we went from having no dedicated servers to having no good dedicated servers?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Edit: or is that a No True Scotsman? Take your pick.

Its not. I get headache and want to puke after just one minute. Speaking of which, playing wf pvp is like playing shimada brawl with all genjis an crack. Thats why its not popular. 

[TheFinalEpic]

20 minutes ago, krc473 said:

And here I thought you could improve something by redoing it...

Regardless, is the point of your thread just to complain? Or was the intention to suggest DE sorts out PvP? I assumed it was the latter. I gather that I was wrong and this is just to complain about PvP/people wanting it improved on the current system.

You have a point to saying you can improve something by redoing it, but that in it self is just making a new one. Its not improving the old one, its remaking it.

 

My point of the thread is to address the points on why DE is not doing anything about PVP in its current state, and why most suggestions won't become a reality. I suppose in the end I did antagonize the pvpers that want to improve upon the current system since I pointed out all their wishes and desires are "pointless".

 

I don't want DE to remove the system, actually if DE wants to improve upon PVP and remake it, I wouldn't mind it at all, thats their decision and I respect it. I also respect all those that want PVP in this game.

 

However due to the situation and the state of the game, I was trying to say WHY it won't happen. And PvPers shouldn't antagonize those who don't want pvp in Warframe but the other way around also, PvE'ers of this game shouldn't antagonize PvPer's in this game.

 

If I came off as trying to antagonize PvPer's I apologize.

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[LightZodiac]

18 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

I always wonder about people saying that a game needs everything in order to be good.

Well it really doesn't, but I would like for Warframe to evolve into one of those wholesome games like... World of Warcraft is (fat chance it will). And that kinda includes having the competitive element.

Now I really don't care about PvP in which players kill players. I played like two times and the last time I played there was just me and this Frost guy, I killed him a couple of times since I'm really jumpy in this game and he would just put his snowglobe and play really defensively which put him in a huge disadvantage and it kinda felt like crap 😞

So I let him kill me a couple of times so he felt better 😀

We could have stuff like K-drive and AW races, obstacle course, that kind of things in which incidentally players are way less toxic to each other.

 

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Spoiler

The skill gap you're talking about is literally what match making and rankings are for. Imagine if everyone was "forced" to play PVP right now in Warframe. I'm going to go ahead say you're the top 1 percent of PvPer's in this game. You facing a random person that has never pvped in Warframe would be similar to if me, que'd up and I got put with team mates and enemies at around the bottom 50 percent or bottom 25 percent. Yes I'm going to stomp all "new comers". Since I am the top 1 percent of the game and I know what I'm doing compared to the "casuals" aka the bulk of the ranking player base. From that clip I can see that person has mechanical prowess at Warframe and knows the in and outs of PVP.

 

Here is a real statistic, whether in any PVP games, the lower skill rating you are, the more deaths and the more kills there is in the game. The higher you are, the lower deaths and kills there is in a game. 

 

So if that applies to you, the top 1 percent of Warframe, stomping the bottom 50 percent and 25 percent, yeah you're going to win all the time. YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO. You're not suppose to fight people who are the bottom 50 and 25 percent. Now what happens if you're put against another person whos top 1 percent as you? I'm going to guarantee the same thing happen, alot less kills and a lot less deaths? Why because you're both just going to hop around non stop trying to hit each other and running away from each other. And that will show you inherent flaw in Warframe's PVP system. Why does it show yourself to you? Because any top 1 percent of the player base of any ranking ladder will find it due to all the players having so much prowess and skill in the game.

I'm a bit puzzled, why exactly are you trying to explain this to me? It's part of the first point in my list of actual Conclave problems. Let me repeat:

"That would be fine if people were actually grouped by skill level. They aren't, and Recruit Conditioning was a joke."

Get it? There's a lot talk in this thread about netcode and host advantage, about weapon and Warframe (im)balance, about PvP toxicity even. But how many have actually pointed this out? I think I saw 2 people who did put it clearly.

Honestly, it's kinda funny with you guys. My main argument here revolves around how people keep spreading misinformation, and in your rebuttal attempts, you double down on that? I don't have any skin in the game other than that I really liked to play Conclave some 2 years ago.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

When people talk about dedicated servers they talk about dedicated servers. Not whatever duct tape version we have here, because that is all that it is in its current state. It doesnt really matter if it is 8, 12, 16, 24, 50 or 100. It will never be on par when it is run by players and not professionals. There is a reason people rent servers in games and not host them on their own. I also fail to see the skill or charm in WF PvP, there is too much of a stat weight on it all and not enough skill. 

I'm sorry to say this, but it's pretty obvious you don't have much experience with these dedicated servers. Also, can I ask you how much Conclave you've played and what problems did you encounter with these or what stat weights are unfair?

Note how in that montage I linked earlier there were no signs of lag, hitches or rubberbanding, despite how fast the gameplay is. Do you think he was host all the time?
What about this guy here? (Also note how he's using a complete beginner's loadout.)

(Side note: have a look at the chats in these games. Is that your idea of toxic PvP behaviour? So again: Report/Mute the bad apples like you would in PvE.)

But don't take my word for it. Before you respond, just go to the dedicated server thread and ask the people who actually host these for their experience and/or specs.

 

9 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Its not. I get headache and want to puke after just one minute. Speaking of which, playing wf pvp is like playing shimada brawl with all genjis an crack. Thats why its not popular. 

Well, I guess it's not that well suited to people more prone to motion sickness. The video was mainly targeted at people like @TheFinalEpic who play a lot of PvP in other games.

 

 

Spoiler

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Overwatch has a very serious skill ceiling. 

P.S. That's a straw man. Nowhere did I mention Overwatch doesn't have a high skill ceiling. How could I even assess that? I don't play it. I said it's a bit dishonest because comparing Overwatch to Conclave is comparing apples to oranges.

[Olphalarepth]

4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

How is it unfair to say that PvP brings toxicity? There's actually been studies on videogame violence which have shown that gore and violence onscreen don't make people more violent, but stressful competitive games do. 

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2011/08/video-games.aspx

And remember, PvP players aren't siloed off in their own game. These attitudes aren't contained, they spread throughout the game's social ecosystem as the PvP players also engage in PvE activities, but their anger and resentment has been activated due to PvP and might well shine through to even those (as it did in the above experiment). Attitudes, good and bad, are contagious.

a couple of things when you link a "study"

- link something that has definite results and not "may"

- link something with a decent pool sample and not fewer than 100 people.

- link an actual study and not the short version that doesn't include bias and other parameters.

That is the ABC when linking a "study" to support your claims, that is NOT a study.

 

Once again, nobody is forcing you to do anything, let alone deal with toxic players. If you don't pvp nobody is going to insult you or tell you to "git gud or gtfo" and if you are startled even by random messages on the cloaca that the general chat already is I have the impression you may not yet be an adult or had much social life. Please note that I'm not trying to be offensive since you could be 14 or 16 for all I know. Just trying to point out that your claims are untrue and even if they were they could be easily avoided.

I despise pvp in pve games but I had my fair share of duel in many games. One of the best pvp experience I had was losing a duel in dark souls 2 when I could have easily won and my opponent sent me messages asking why I didn't finish him off when I had the chance, my reply was "I'm trying to understand the parry time for some weapons". We started practicing together that day and I got better thanks to him. On hundreds of duel I have only received 3 or 4 hatemails. So much for toxicity. Warframe does not even have the problem of random invasions from players so you can easily play the main game and leave the "toxic players" in their own garden.

 

All this overly abused "toxic" word must not become an excuse for things that don't have impact on your life except for those who willingly engage in related fields.

[Falconer777]

8 часов назад, TheFinalEpic сказал:

Hey our discussions here are fine. Participants are the same in the pvper supporters make sense and of course your opinions aren't going to change. Your opinions are valid.

 

I talked only about some of the participants in the discussion) Of course, not all. 

Цитата

And in the end DE will decide what they are to do with the game, you are correct, however you say they don't read forum posts and it won't change their views or decisions and I'm going to rebuttal and I'm going to say that forum discussions does affect DE decision. Why do you think YOU are bringing  these topics up of supporting PVP in other threads? In your history you've made a lot of post begging for them to fix PVP or add new modes etc. So what you're doing is trying to get DE's attention in supporting what you believe in so you're contradicting yourself.

No, I do not contradict. I just changed my opinion about the effectiveness of this forum and its significance for developers. What is the use of writing if all this is left unanswered? Not a single developer answered in any topic dedicated to PvP ... actually, I rarely see any answer to all. This theme also does not rise on Devstreams. Ergo - is a waste of time. 
Naturally, I will not stop writing about PvP in Warframe - but much less.
In addition, I was tired of the aggressiveness of many PvE players. Seriously, I have never met such an aggressive group in any community. Actually, this applies to all the conservatives in general, let's call it that, group on this forum. Group "NOT!".
"Not!!" for any fresh ideas or suggestions, any criticism. The fanatics of DE, who seem to live on this forum specifically in order to bring down any new ideas. In any other game, criticism or new ideas are more or less calmly discussed, here - a dozen of the same fans arrive at the topic with their own "Go play another game!! Don't dare to complain, it's free!! Just" NO!!"" and so on. Why the hell am I wasting my time on these guys? 

Цитата

The point of my post is to explain to the PVPers like you (the tittle address you guys specifically) on why DE won't touch PVP. From how adding new modes won't work and that DE has to remake the entire pvp system by explaining on why pvp doesn't work in Warframe in its current state due to DE's failed attempt importing from PVE to PVP.

Yes, I understand your point of view.

Цитата

And that if they want PVP to work, they would have to remake the entire mode from the ground up, not just adding new modes cause that's just adding more wings to a broken plane. This take time and resources. And DE will only do it if there is a positive thing for them to do.

In my opinion, it’s not so completely from scratch) Grineer vs. Corpus, or the return of old mechanics from the Dark Sectors ..

Yes, it will take some resources - but incomparably smaller, in my opinion, than, for example, an open world.

Цитата

Your argument is that it is positive for them to do these things, that PVP will attract new players.This also a invalid because nobody starts to play Warframe to "hey i want it to play for PVP and its my main focus". It is marketed toward a PVE grinder by media, players alike.

Somewhat controversial) I, for example, started playing Warframe, also because I knew that there was PvP in this game. Purely PvE games rarely interest me at all, I like a good combination of both modes.

Цитата

You say that if it will not bring much profit, they will not do that. And well.... you answered your own argument with the reality of the situation. The matter of fact is PVP does not bring in players, retain players, or have in anyway to monetize it.  I know you want it but the reality of the current situation is it won't happen.

This is also a bit controversial. I now took a pause in Warframe before the release of Railjack. Because I just have nothing to do in the game, and the open worlds is not interest me. Now I play other games. If the PvP regime were at least at Destiny 2 level in Warframe, I would have stayed with my wallet. And I'm not alone in this approach.

The forum often raises the theme of "content drought", because of which players leave or take a pause. Also the theme of the lack of endgame. Because of this, the players also leave. I repeat - good PvP solves these problems)

But, of course, DE has its own statistics, they know better. It is quite possible that they are not at all interested in the long-term retention of players, due to their chosen business model.

Цитата

Don't think I have misinformation of I have latent hostility toward any people who want PVP. I respect them a lot and have stated this multiple times in all my replies since they want it because they want it to come from a game they love and a developer they respect and there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes. If everyone led the discussion, how are you - calm, respectful and reasoned - it would be great)

P.S. Sorry for my english  - is not my first language.

[5H4DE]

I think a much closer pvp game to use as a comparison would be S4League since the freedom of movement in that game is a lot closer to WF than any other pvp games I know of.

[-Temp0-]

5 часов назад, Kontrollo сказал:

I'm a bit puzzled, why exactly are you trying to explain this to me? It's part of the first point in my list of actual Conclave problems. Let me repeat:

"That would be fine if people were actually grouped by skill level. They aren't, and Recruit Conditioning was a joke."

Get it? There's a lot talk in this thread about netcode and host advantage, about weapon and Warframe (im)balance, about PvP toxicity even. But how many have actually pointed this out? I think I saw 2 people who did put it clearly.

Honestly, it's kinda funny with you guys. My main argument here revolves around how people keep spreading misinformation, and in your rebuttal attempts, you double down on that? I don't have any skin in the game other than that I really liked to play Conclave some 2 years ago.

I'm sorry to say this, but it's pretty obvious you don't have much experience with these dedicated servers. Also, can I ask you how much Conclave you've played and what problems did you encounter with these or what stat weights are unfair?

Note how in that montage I linked earlier there were no signs of lag, hitches or rubberbanding, despite how fast the gameplay is. Do you think he was host all the time?
What about this guy here? (Also note how he's using a complete beginner's loadout.)

(Side note: have a look at the chats in these games. Is that your idea of toxic PvP behaviour? So again: Report/Mute the bad apples like you would in PvE.)

But don't take my word for it. Before you respond, just go to the dedicated server thread and ask the people who actually host these for their experience and/or specs.

 

Well, I guess it's not that well suited to people more prone to motion sickness. The video was mainly targeted at people like @TheFinalEpic who play a lot of PvP in other games.

 

 

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P.S. That's a straw man. Nowhere did I mention Overwatch doesn't have a high skill ceiling. How could I even assess that? I don't play it. I said it's a bit dishonest because comparing Overwatch to Conclave is comparing apples to oranges.

PvP in other games has nothing to do with warframe. I played overwatch and destiny all right but even watchin wf pvp makes me want to throw up. But same effect have videos like life of rio does sometimes where he bunny hopps non stop like hes on crack. Honestly that is way too much button mash for such a cheap effect

Edited January 17, 2019 by -Temp0-

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Honestly, it's kinda funny with you guys. My main argument here revolves around how people keep spreading misinformation, and in your rebuttal attempts, you double down on that? I don't have any skin in the game other than that I really liked to play Conclave some 2 years ago.

I'm sorry to say this, but it's pretty obvious you don't have much experience with these dedicated servers. Also, can I ask you how much Conclave you've played and what problems did you encounter with these or what stat weights are unfair?

Note how in that montage I linked earlier there were no signs of lag, hitches or rubberbanding, despite how fast the gameplay is. Do you think he was host all the time?
What about this guy here? (Also note how he's using a complete beginner's loadout.)

Honestly, if there was missinformation being spread the actual numbers and popularity would show that in an active Conclave, which we simply dont have.

My biggest issue when testing conclave was that it simply wants fun and it lead to eye strain. As I said it is simply too twitchy.

Also, your comment about not seeing rubberbanding etc. in the videos means nothing, they were probably using a dedicated server, that still doesnt mean squat in the end and we only know how the maker of the video experienced it all. And what kinda question is "Do you think he was host all the time?"? None of them were the host, some extra rig was the host i.e the "dedicated" server. But that is all it will ever be "dedicated" because it isnt provided by professionals with professional setups. And with the matchmaking of WF the differences can be night and day. Even with a "dedicated" server it wouldnt be unlikely to end up above your desired ping limits, which in PvP stop for me at around 50 or 60ms, the ping i can expect with my connection to "regional" dedicated servers. WF simply doesnt handle matchmaking and ping limits well, so there will always be these issues ontop of everything else.

Even in Battlefront there were issues when they removed the server list and just ran with a random game finder mechanic. You could end up on a server with poor routing, turning that 35ping game into a laggy mess eitherway. I had massive issues on specific german servers. And those same servers were the ones I avoided when playing BF4 prior to BFront.

When it comes to stat weights they will always be unfair because they remove a large portion of skill. There is a reason why Overwatch, BF and CoD are skill based because there arent two million variables of different weapons that needs balancing aswell as having their own seperate crit and proc values. In those games it is simply about how well you aim once you get comfortable with the hero or weapon. You cant rely on a crutch that is critical strike unless you aim well and get headshots.

In the end none of this matters though because what you are advocating is something that would make less than a percent of the active playerbase happy. Why would a company waste resources on something that can be better experienced in several other games to begin with, games designed purely with PvP in mind, with the correct game structure and servers etc? Plus they've already tried to make PvP popular 4(!) times in this game, although one of them being a side project (FrameFighter). Three dedicated attempts is more than enough to see it isnt popular enough to spend resources on (outside of balancing new frames and weapons for the current conclave). There is a saying, "Third time is a charm", that clearly isnt the case for WFs PvP, not even the 4th try changed anything.

[Stormdragon]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Honestly, if there was missinformation being spread the actual numbers and popularity would show that in an active Conclave, which we simply dont have.

The misinformation has been quite widely spread by players against any kind of pvp to the point where most players take it as proper information. The amount of players bashing conclave without ever giving it a try and trying to discourage others from playing it are proof of that.

28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, your comment about not seeing rubberbanding etc. in the videos means nothing, they were probably using a dedicated server, that still doesnt mean squat in the end and we only know how the maker of the video experienced it all. And what kinda question is "Do you think he was host all the time?"? None of them were the host, some extra rig was the host i.e the "dedicated" server. But that is all it will ever be "dedicated" because it isnt provided by professionals with professional setups. And with the matchmaking of WF the differences can be night and day. Even with a "dedicated" server it wouldnt be unlikely to end up above your desired ping limits, which in PvP stop for me at around 50 or 60ms, the ping i can expect with my connection to "regional" dedicated servers. WF simply doesnt handle matchmaking and ping limits well, so there will always be these issues ontop of everything else.

So you keep escalating from "there are no dedicated servers" to "there are no good servers", and now to "there are no professional dedicated servers", while disregarding that there are players who host servers at over 120Hz (which is twice as fast the tickrate of those professional servers hosting games like Overwatch) and can provide a smooth experience even at high pings. For instance, i'm a South American player and get around 275 ms of ping to Spiedies's server in Europa and around 200ms to Theroxenes' servers in North America yet still manage to perform properly and usually even better than players with less than half those pings. The only times i see rubberbanding and lag issues in conclave is when players with bad connection join where it only affects to them, or when i go to areas without servers being hosted and end up in a potato hosted match despite having lower ping than those obtained to the servers listed above. But hey! These aren't NASA hosted servers so i guess these don't fulfill their purpose.

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

When it comes to stat weights they will always be unfair because they remove a large portion of skill. There is a reason why Overwatch, BF and CoD are skill based because there arent two million variables of different weapons that needs balancing aswell as having their own seperate crit and proc values. In those games it is simply about how well you aim once you get comfortable with the hero or weapon. You cant rely on a crutch that is critical strike unless you aim well and get headshots.

Have you ever even taken a look at the conclave arsenal? The bolded and underlined sentence serve as a proof of the misinformation being spread by players who haven't ever touched the conclave console. Status and acritical chance were both removed from conclave and critical damage got turned into headshot damage years ago, so you can't rely on a crutch that is critical strike unless you aim well and get headshots.

[Kontrollo]

4 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

PvP in other games has nothing to do with warframe. I played overwatch and destiny all right but even watchin wf pvp makes me want to throw up. But same effect have videos like life of rio does sometimes where he bunny hopps non stop like hes on crack. Honestly that is way too much button mash for such a cheap effect

Look I feel you. Getting motion sickness is no fun at all, no matter what triggers it. Luckily, I don't have that problem when playing any video games, but I know how it feels from being on a ship in unruly waters and I know how much it sucks.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Honestly, if there was missinformation being spread the actual numbers and popularity would show that in an active Conclave, which we simply dont have. 

Another logical fallacy: that's a non-sequitur.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Spoiler

My biggest issue when testing conclave was that it simply wants fun and it lead to eye strain. As I said it is simply too twitchy.

Also, your comment about not seeing rubberbanding etc. in the videos means nothing, they were probably using a dedicated server, that still doesnt mean squat in the end and we only know how the maker of the video experienced it all. And what kinda question is "Do you think he was host all the time?"? None of them were the host, some extra rig was the host i.e the "dedicated" server. But that is all it will ever be "dedicated" because it isnt provided by professionals with professional setups. And with the matchmaking of WF the differences can be night and day. Even with a "dedicated" server it wouldnt be unlikely to end up above your desired ping limits, which in PvP stop for me at around 50 or 60ms, the ping i can expect with my connection to "regional" dedicated servers. WF simply doesnt handle matchmaking and ping limits well, so there will always be these issues ontop of everything else.

Even in Battlefront there were issues when they removed the server list and just ran with a random game finder mechanic. You could end up on a server with poor routing, turning that 35ping game into a laggy mess eitherway. I had massive issues on specific german servers. And those same servers were the ones I avoided when playing BF4 prior to BFront.

When it comes to stat weights they will always be unfair because they remove a large portion of skill. There is a reason why Overwatch, BF and CoD are skill based because there arent two million variables of different weapons that needs balancing aswell as having their own seperate crit and proc values. In those games it is simply about how well you aim once you get comfortable with the hero or weapon. You cant rely on a crutch that is critical strike unless you aim well and get headshots.

 

Honestly, you've been writing a lot in these threads, but the more you do, the less it sounds like you have a lot of experience with the game mode. I recommend you open the Conclave Arsenal have a look at the weapon stats. Now I've said it before: it might not be everyone's cup of tea and that's fine. But just because you don't play it doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to, either.

 

@Stormdragon sounds like someone who has experience and mentions two people who host servers. I think you should talk to those 3 guys to get a better idea of how things work.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In the end none of this matters though because what you are advocating is something that would make less than a percent of the active playerbase happy. Why would a company waste resources on something that can be better experienced in several other games to begin with, games designed purely with PvP in mind, with the correct game structure and servers etc? Plus they've already tried to make PvP popular 4(!) times in this game, although one of them being a side project (FrameFighter). Three dedicated attempts is more than enough to see it isnt popular enough to spend resources on (outside of balancing new frames and weapons for the current conclave). There is a saying, "Third time is a charm", that clearly isnt the case for WFs PvP, not even the 4th try changed anything.

I'm advocating that you stop spreading misinformation, first and foremost. Why is this the fallback argument? Besides, what happens if 1% play PvP and it takes the devs 0.5% of total time/resources to support it?

And again, what would happen if PvE didn't have a meaningful update in two years? Isn't it interesting how this was ignored despite me repeating it several times?

[SneakyErvin]

26 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Honestly, you've been writing a lot in these threads, but the more you do, the less it sounds like you have a lot of experience with the game mode. I recommend you open the Conclave Arsenal have a look at the weapon stats. Now I've said it before: it might not be everyone's cup of tea and that's fine. But just because you don't play it doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to, either.

You fail to see the point that we are talking about less than 1% of the active playerbase. Enjoy what you have, dont expect new PvP modes to be added because they are simply not profitable or justified resource allocations. And are you honestly for real when you think a handful of players hosting servers is something to be proud of or think it is a good thing?

We are talking about a game with millions of active players, 48m registered accounts. And a handful of them (on PC for that matter) are hosting servers. Yes that handful of people can likely hold those few interested in playing it. But those are embarassingly extremely low numbers of active PvPers. I mean you are happy about 2, yes 2 players hosting servers. If those 2 arent a sign of the unpopularity of PvP then I dont know what is. All of the numbers are speaking against the mode and its imagined popularity.

Be happy that DE lets the conclave live on. But I dont understand how you fail to realize the numbers simply dont justify more development on more PvP modes or even a rework of the current one. The respone and interest in WF PvP is extremely cold and shallow. It is at the point where you can barely call it a PvP community, maybe a PvP clique at best.

And if PvE were to not see meaningful updates in two years the game would die, because the game is used close to soley for PvE. You dont even realize the massive difference in numbers here. You seem to have issues accepting that PvP is barely breathing and somehow think it is in the same boat as the PvE part of the game.

[Kontrollo]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

You fail to see the point that we are talking about less than 1% of the active playerbase. Enjoy what you have, dont expect new PvP modes to be added because they are simply not profitable or justified resource allocations. And are you honestly for real when you think a handful of players hosting servers is something to be proud of or think it is a good thing?

We are talking about a game with millions of active players, 48m registered accounts. And a handful of them (on PC for that matter) are hosting servers. Yes that handful of people can likely hold those few interested in playing it. But those are embarassingly extremely low numbers of active PvPers. I mean you are happy about 2, yes 2 players hosting servers. If those 2 arent a sign of the unpopularity of PvP then I dont know what is. All of the numbers are speaking against the mode and its imagined popularity.

Be happy that DE lets the conclave live on. But I dont understand how you fail to realize the numbers simply dont justify more development on more PvP modes or even a rework of the current one. The respone and interest in WF PvP is extremely cold and shallow. It is at the point where you can barely call it a PvP community, maybe a PvP clique at best.

And if PvE were to not see meaningful updates in two years the game would die, because the game is used close to soley for PvE. You dont even realize the massive difference in numbers here. You seem to have issues accepting that PvP is barely breathing and somehow think it is in the same boat as the PvE part of the game.

There are of course more than two people hosting, lol. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know about this, too. And thanks for finally answering that question: Looks like Conclave doesn't have as much activity anymore these days, but it hasn't died yet, either. Talk about longevity. (Hint: there seems to be some kind of correlation between dev time investment and activity.)

But honestly, you keep repeating things that don't matter to me as much as you think they do. I don't know how many times I have to say this, I'm just going to quote myself:

10 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

My main argument here revolves around how people keep spreading misinformation, and in your rebuttal attempts, you double down on that? I don't have any skin in the game other than that I really liked to play Conclave some 2 years ago.

Now if you want to educate yourself, or if you want to continue this discussion, we can do that through PMs, as I'm not a fan of repeating the same things in a thread after a point. Alternatively, you could go check out the Conclave Discord and talk to those guys (I'm not active there anymore): https://discord.gg/0o35sDMUR9RSWTWz

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

There are of course more than two people hosting, lol. If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know about this, too. And thanks for finally answering that question: Looks like Conclave doesn't have as much activity anymore these days, but it hasn't died yet, either. Talk about longevity. (Hint: there seems to be some kind of correlation between dev time investment and activity.)

But honestly, you keep repeating things that don't matter to me as much as you think they do. I don't know how many times I have to say this, I'm just going to quote myself:

Now if you want to educate yourself, or if you want to continue this discussion, we can do that through PMs, as I'm not a fan of repeating the same things in a thread after a point. Alternatively, you could go check out the Conclave Discord and talk to those guys (I'm not active there anymore): https://discord.gg/0o35sDMUR9RSWTWz

Well yes obviously there are more than two but the number is still too small and there is no quality assurance either since matchmaking is already wonky in WF. PvP is no exception when it comes to ending up with the wrong people and a bad connection experience. PvP experiences should be stable and reliable when it comes to connections.

This is also not about conclave alone, which I've said time and time again it is OK that they maintain. The problem are all the people asking for new pointless PvP modes or a full rework of conclave. All based on some idea that conclave is actually a very popular part of the game even though the numbers say the straight opposite.

We have ideas about PvP in Railjack, WF-Royale, overhaul of conclave, rework of lunaro, rework and re-release of dark sector rail wars etc. It simply wont make them more popular or resource/time investments worth what has been put in.

The real question is also. Why should I sit down in some half assed PvP experience when I can just boot up an actual well designed PvP game instead? Just as much as I dislike the PvP in WF I dislike the PvE in Overwatch. Although Overwatch PvE is solid in comparison to WF PvP it is still not on the level of an actual dedicated PvE game. 

And if you somehow imagine that PvP development wont take away anything from PvE development, just take a peek over at Epic Games and Fortnite. BR completely set the PvE part aside even though their devs promised it was a "side project" and a "seperate crew". The difference is that FNBR is a solid PvP experience in several ways, it still killed the game for many PvE players because of content delays.

[----Legacy----]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes obviously there are more than two but the number is still too small and there is no quality assurance either since matchmaking is already wonky in WF. PvP is no exception when it comes to ending up with the wrong people and a bad connection experience. PvP experiences should be stable and reliable when it comes to connections.

It's really fun to see how now conclave is hated by issues plaguing the game as a whole, and how if DE decided to fix said issues for conclave the pve experience would se a benefit as well. Hell, perhaps they could even try to improve and optimize the netcode in conclave first and once it's sorted out and working port that netcode to PvE and let everyone have a better experiemce without going through the hassle of alpha testing that code.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

This is also not about conclave alone, which I've said time and time again it is OK that they maintain. The problem are all the people asking for new pointless PvP modes or a full rework of conclave. All based on some idea that conclave is actually a very popular part of the game even though the numbers say the straight opposite.

To be fair, most (if not all) of the players asking for new pvp modes are also those who usually like pvp but struggle (or simply don't want) to get into warframe's one. Fun enough, based on what i've seen in those threads asking for new pvp modes most of the players who already enjoy the existing pvp agree on new modes not being needed, and usually the first to shoot them down with actual arguments different to the toxic and abusive "No because of reasons", "muh dev resources", or "nobody cares" that are usually thrown even on threads with actual feedback about balance, something that can be fixed simply by tweaking a single number.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if you somehow imagine that PvP development wont take away anything from PvE development, just take a peek over at Epic Games and Fortnite. BR completely set the PvE part aside even though their devs promised it was a "side project" and a "seperate crew". The difference is that FNBR is a solid PvP experience in several ways, it still killed the game for many PvE players because of content delays.

Gotta love this slippery slope. Conclave doesn't need a big amount of maintenace and could be improved in the same way as Frame Fighter, a minigame nobody asked for, was developed and released. The bones are there, it needs some polishment and improvements but you can be sure that conclave players will be happy to see something from the devs even if there are months between a statement and its release. We already have our own endgame and replayable content that will keep us busy and comimg back even when the rest of the playerbase screams "content drought" or straight up goes to other games after all.

[demoxis]

On 2019-01-11 at 11:50 AM, S.Dust said:

PVP in warframe is something that some enjoy and some people have an unreasonable hatred for with arguments like, the devs could be spending time on better things which is both true and wrong because the devs spend time on somethings that really dont go very far and don't have very good replay value but hey that's how the community views things. I am gonna give a reason why good pvp would benefit DE and bring in new players.

If you look at the top games played on twitch right now what will you notice... they all have a competitive component or a straight forward goal to follow along with; In warframe often times the streamer is just farming things or doing a self thought out goal because the game just lacks things worth doing sometimes which kinda goes back to the games bad replay value, but with pvp you play to win thats the goal you just wanna win and kill things or reach an objective and you might have some epic moments here and there, and maybe can have a bunch of people join and have fun. Warframes PVP to many people is lacking (I think its fun sometimes) but at the same time everyone wants to just let it die and move on but if you look at all the twitch related things Warframe has been doing it is very clear they want to create and audience on twitch, they do prime for prime, they do twitch giveaways for new updates, they do their streams with giveaways throughout the week like prime time and the dev stream on twitch along with giveaways but even with all that, outside of when there is a free item to get most people don't care for warframe streams because you're not watching a story the majority of the time and you're not seeing someone go towards a concrete goal or have fun with a group, if you're in a warframe stream you are probably either there for the streamer or a giveaway not the game. PVP would just allow for a better audience and more interaction with viewers in a just draws more attention. 

Warframe doesn't necessarily need to rework PVP but they could encourage streamers to do conclave streams more and play with viewers and if it goes well then we would see that conclave has the potential to succeed and draw a crowd. 

Enjoy roasting me in the comments and have a nice day.

 I placed the post in the conclave forums for the people that really wanted me to here is the link to it just saying now it's the same exact post. I will be leaving a link to this post in that one for people who want to read the comments here.

 

This is outstanding and accurate. I spend a lot of time in conclave and I'm always telling people there is so much potential for warframe pvp to the point it would make all other pvp look pretty lame. Rails, lunaro, ctc, ffa, team, you could take it to arch wing pvp. include a weekly leaderboard of kills in the conclave. Sure some people will boost it but we know those people as the pvp community is pretty tight knit and we know who is worth their salt. Add more rewards, make more of the conclave modes pve usable and actually decent but not necessary. Add conclave events such as Digital Extremes sponsored tournaments so we all could see who is the best. The biggest thing Digital Extremes could do is bring back clan wars also known as solar rails revamped with the conclave damage setup. Get rid of bugs and glitches then it's set.

Edited January 18, 2019 by demoxis

[(XBOX)Dark SalvationX]

This game 100% needs some form of pvp/pve. Even if it was only like on invasions, one side corpus one side grineer. Its can be optional i know for a fact people on xbox would play. And the people who are intimidated by a challenge dont have to. Just for fun, would bring more pvp lovers to warframe at no cost to pve. 

 

[demoxis]

19 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You fail to see the point that we are talking about less than 1% of the active playerbase. Enjoy what you have, dont expect new PvP modes to be added because they are simply not profitable or justified resource allocations. And are you honestly for real when you think a handful of players hosting servers is something to be proud of or think it is a good thing?

We are talking about a game with millions of active players, 48m registered accounts. And a handful of them (on PC for that matter) are hosting servers. Yes that handful of people can likely hold those few interested in playing it. But those are embarassingly extremely low numbers of active PvPers. I mean you are happy about 2, yes 2 players hosting servers. If those 2 arent a sign of the unpopularity of PvP then I dont know what is. All of the numbers are speaking against the mode and its imagined popularity.

Be happy that DE lets the conclave live on. But I dont understand how you fail to realize the numbers simply dont justify more development on more PvP modes or even a rework of the current one. The respone and interest in WF PvP is extremely cold and shallow. It is at the point where you can barely call it a PvP community, maybe a PvP clique at best.

I would like to point out a few things. 1. You started this game in 2017 my friend after solar rails was done and gone and all you have heard are regurgitated opinions from people. 

2. The old "nobody plays it" answer doesnt hold water. Nobody plays it because DE doesnt invest themselves in PVP as much as they could or in trending games pvp is huge. COD (all of them), D1&D2, Smite, pubg, fortnite, mortal kombat, killer instinct,  and for honor all make MASSIVE amounts of money off of pvp. All of these games quite frankly I feel are inferior to Warframe on the simple matter is they have been done before. Cod and destiny are your average fps pubg and fortnite and the same old battle royal over and over again yet they are profitable. 

3. There are a group of us that were around in the beginning. We remember when the orbiter wasn't as cool, things were bugged, 3 tile sets where you kicked in the same vent, we had a handful of warframes, no dojo or relays, raids, rails, rivens, sorties, plains, fortuna, the works. This game was literally nothing. Nobody gave a crap about this game. However since Digital Extremes put effort into its pve and its overall content, it has become one of the most successful games in the world that is free to play and download. Over the years I have spent more than the $50 I put in just to get the excal prime it's in the 1000s because I truly love this game and have invested in it some might say. I have come to enjoy pvp because it's really the only challenge I can find in the game but it's as undeveloped as pve used to be. Sure it's cool but it could be WAY more. 

If you found any of this insulting it was not my intent friend. 

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

It's really fun to see how now conclave is hated by issues plaguing the game as a whole, and how if DE decided to fix said issues for conclave the pve experience would se a benefit as well. Hell, perhaps they could even try to improve and optimize the netcode in conclave first and once it's sorted out and working port that netcode to PvE and let everyone have a better experiemce without going through the hassle of alpha testing that code.

To be fair, most (if not all) of the players asking for new pvp modes are also those who usually like pvp but struggle (or simply don't want) to get into warframe's one. Fun enough, based on what i've seen in those threads asking for new pvp modes most of the players who already enjoy the existing pvp agree on new modes not being needed, and usually the first to shoot them down with actual arguments different to the toxic and abusive "No because of reasons", "muh dev resources", or "nobody cares" that are usually thrown even on threads with actual feedback about balance, something that can be fixed simply by tweaking a single number.

Gotta love this slippery slope. Conclave doesn't need a big amount of maintenace and could be improved in the same way as Frame Fighter, a minigame nobody asked for, was developed and released. The bones are there, it needs some polishment and improvements but you can be sure that conclave players will be happy to see something from the devs even if there are months between a statement and its release. We already have our own endgame and replayable content that will keep us busy and comimg back even when the rest of the playerbase screams "content drought" or straight up goes to other games after all.

1. Netcode for PvP would not help PvE. The netcode for PvE is already good. Honestly, how often do you miss to land a shot in PvE or how often do you fail to dodge a shot/melee in PvE? I'd say never. Whenever it happens it is due to ping or the host, doing something with the netcode wouldnt help in that regard. PvE isnt prone to the issues of lacking netcode like PvP. Just look at BF4, it took them a year or so to fix the netcode in online games, there was never an issue in the PvE campaign. In PvP you could get hit behind a wall 2 seconds after getting behind it, now that is poor netcode.

2. I'm a major PvPer myself and I've never felt a need for PvP to be added to every single game out there. Warframe just happens to be exactly one of those where it isnt needed and it would be too much work to implement something that isnt just mindless S#&$s n' giggles PvP. I repeat DE have tried it 4 times already and none of them have been successful and one has been removed completely.

3. Not a slippery slope at all if you bothered to read what I've already said a few times. Conclave should stay and get maintained just as it is now, with new weapons and frames being balanced for it when they are released. And making conclave players happy isnt exactly something I'd call a priority. You dont make content and focus on it to make 1% or less of your active players happy, not if it means cutting back on things that 99% of the players (and probably the specific 1%) would enjoy. There is a reason why PvP and raids get canned in many games because the modes simply dont attract the majority. And when you have a limited crew it becomes even more obvious. It is one thing to "sell" a game with PvP at the start because you will get those players directly at the door. It is harder to implement it later on because you likely have issues balancing it and you have no idea how many of the current players it will attract.

I'm still confused how people here think PvP will ever get popular in WF. After 4 attempts at different types of PvP it would be quite obvious that it isnt what the WF community is looking for at all.