CC Frames not in the best position these days

[-Sentient-]

CC Frames like Vauban and Nyx aren't really used a lot these days, because their kit is Full CC without any damage or support

Other frames like Khora, Harrow, and Baruuk can CC and kill at the same time.

Defense - Kill all the enemies so the next round comes (Who needs Loki when Mesa can clear an entire room without having to aim and make the enemies in front of you unable to use weapons)

Survival - Kill enemies so you get life support and you won't die (The meta here is loot frames like  Nekros,Hydroid, and Nidus)

Extermination - Pretty obvious (Meta here is Ember WoF or Equinox)

ESO -  Kill all the specimens so you don't lose efficiency (Nuke frames is the meta here)

Excavation - Kill all the incoming enemies and grab their power reactor (Meta here is defensive frames like Frost or Gara and CC won't be needed)

Eidolons - There isn't any CC frame in the meta, just buffers, and healers ( I was expecting a meta change in The orbs but it went worse than expected)

My point is, that if Saryn can kill 40 enemies faster than Loki can disarm them, then Loki disarm will look pretty pathetic

There is no game mode where Full CC is meta, nor even that needed.

Raids gave Full CC frames an purpose, I remember when Vauban wasn't the dusty useless frame that is today.

Loki saves itself because he at least works very good on solo and has Invisibility, but that's it.

What do you guys think?

Edited January 13, 2019 by -Sentient-

[IceColdHawk]

Interception.

I remember back in the days when people made nerf threads about CC abilities or shouted "OP!" after seeing just Titania's first ability in a devstream ^^

[-Sentient-]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Interception.

I remember back in the days when people made nerf threads about CC abilities or shouted "OP!" after seeing just Titania's first ability in a devstream ^^

I missed that one, you're right that's the only Game mode that works with cc, especially with Vooben.

Edited January 13, 2019 by -Sentient-

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, -Sentient- said:

I missed that one, you're right that the only Game mode that works with cc, especially with Vooben.

The game modes you listed were present for a long time aside from ESO and Eidolons. But the amount of powercreep in form of arcanes, mods, overall survivability and revivability (especially with operator) has made safe plays with CC kinda redundant. Also the increasing power of DPS. Back when 4-digit damage was TOP, now it's a joke.

[peterc3]

27 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

There is no game mode where Full CC is meta, nor even that needed.

 

The day DE starts developing solely because of whatever the meta is and not making what they want to make is the day I stop playing.

[kgabor]

I sometimes use cc in Excavations and harder content, like Mot Survival, Nyx used to be my favorite frame for these missions.

Vauban is also pretty useful in Hieracon long runs if you do those, but Frost and Gara are also cc, they can both freeze mobs and do area denial. (but Limbo is more meta friendly and scales aswell, less teammate friendly though)

Saryn, Day Equinox and Mesa are simply broken at their current state, Volt also to some degree, but doesn't scale as well.

I wouldn't even consider Harrow's cc cc, who even builds Harrow for duration when strength and range are far more needed?

Btw. Loki is still used in Defence to make the enemies come faster if no map wide nuke frames with no LoS restriction are present.

[BallisticSalsa]

Then the Octavia goes.

"Why not both?"

[RX-3DR]

So what is the plan though?

We replace CC with more "press button to insta-kill"? Or we make it so enemies don't melt instantly from a lazy Saryn/Mesa?

Problem is not that CC is bad. The problem is that it has become way too easy to ez-mode with brute force by stacking Ability Strength/Range and using Zenurik. Take out Zenurik and Corrupted mods from your build and you will see where the problem stems from.

[-Sentient-]

Just now, RX-3DR said:

So what is the plan though?

We replace CC with more "press button to insta-kill"? Or we make it so enemies don't melt instantly from a lazy Saryn/Mesa?

Problem is not that CC is bad. The problem is that it has become way too easy to ez-mode with brute force by stacking Ability Strength/Range and using Zenurik. Take out Zenurik and Corrupted mods from your build and you will see where the problem stems from.

Saryn and Mesa

thats the problem, they don't need corrupted mods, Saryn escalates so well because of corrosive. 

[K4RN4]

On 2019-01-13 at 8:26 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

-Snip-

Well it certainly feels like it's not that obvious for alot of players, looking at the dozens of "Vauban sux" posts created the past few weaks. Vauban used to be pretty popular and "meta" before raids were removed, because CC had a place in the game. But now that raids are gone and replaced by a damage check in the form of Eidolons and Orbs, he just lost his place in the game. 

The obvious solution here is to create a new niche for him and other CC frames, but most players don't seem to see that, as most suggest an update on his abilities to fit the current requirements in the game.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, K4RN4 said:

Well it certainly feels like it's not that obvious for alot of players, looking at the dozens of "Vauban sux" posts created the past few weaks. Vauban used to be pretty popular and "meta" before raids were removed, because CC had a place in the game. But now that raids are gone and replaced by a damage check in the form of Eidolons and Orbs, he just lost his place in the game. 

The obvious solution here is to create a new niche for him and other CC frames, but most players don't seem to see that, as most suggest an update on his abilities to fit the current requirements in the game.

I’d argue that the constant uploads of Vauban rework threads shows that the community IS aware of CC’s diminishing relevance.

[K4RN4]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d argue that the constant uploads of Vauban rework threads shows that the community IS aware of CC’s diminishing relevance.

Ok, it seems like we have diffrent interpretations of what is evident.

I just don't think most players try to realize the root of Vaubans problems and just see him as bad instead of him being placed in game that doesn't require his strength. That is probably because I think the most obvious solution to Vaubans problems would be to create a place for him instead of changing him to fit the current game, as most players suggest.

You probably see Vauban rework threads as being caused players who realize the problem but come to a diffrent solution than me, reworking him. To me that just seems to be the worse option.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about your opinion, I just want to make clear what our opinions are to make further discussions more productive and less based on assumptions about the others point of view.

[CriticalFumble]

17 minutes ago, K4RN4 said:

The obvious solution here is to create a new niche for him and other CC frames, but most players don't seem to see that, as most suggest an update on his abilities to fit the current requirements in the game. 

I'd personally rather CC be rethought and reapplied to ability kits rather than have a purpose built mode that tries to make CC focused frames relevant.  First because I predict it wouldn't be much fun like Excavation that effectively mandates a hard defense frame; or Defection that already theoretically encourages the use of CC.  Second, because it would likely backfire as CC abilities already overlap and interfere with one another. 

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

"You can say that again".

Sorry, sorry, I meant to say, 

"You can double post that".

 

I appreciate underpowered frames while soloing..  I feel like I'm playing the game the way it was meant to be played. Lol and sadly this is probably true. But..  They need to be able to keep up.. 

Missions need to be buffed..  More incentives for stealth play. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, K4RN4 said:

Ok, it seems like we have diffrent interpretations of what is evident.

I just don't think most players try to realize the root of Vaubans problems and just see him as bad instead of him being placed in game that doesn't require his strength. That is probably because I think the most obvious solution to Vaubans problems would be to create a place for him instead of changing him to fit the current game, as most players suggest.

You probably see Vauban rework threads as being caused players who realize the problem but come to a diffrent solution than me, reworking him. To me that just seems to be the worse option.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about your opinion, I just want to make clear what our opinions are to make further discussions more productive and less based on assumptions about the others point of view.

It’s better to adapt a frame to its new environment rather than adapt the environment around the frame.

Also, when DE gave Vauban those minor changes with his Deluxe skins release it made people give his abilities a second look and that’s when his flaws really started to show through. Why does Bastille have an enemy cap when an ability like Strangledome doesn’t? Why do we have to charge Tesla for 2 seconds in order for it to be even remotely functional? Why does every minelayer grenade have to be incredibly useless or have some glaring flaw that keeps it from actually being useful? Vaubans been outclassed by frames that can do everything he can and more. Vauban needs to be changed.

[SneakyErvin]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d argue that the constant uploads of Vauban rework threads shows that the community IS aware of CC’s diminishing relevance.

The community may be aware, but it doesnt hurt to post it as often as possible so maybe DE will be aware aswell. Because currently I doubt they are aware when looking at the Nyx and Titania "reworks". Nyx is as pointless as ever, serving no actual purpose for her team. There are plenty of frames that does what she can but far better while also bringing heavy damage to the group.

There is no meaningful use of her AoE CC, since it will just slow things down far off in the distance. She might work on mobile defense, but you can just aswell take a irradiating disarm Loki who does it all so much better and at the same range. Or since Fortuna update 2 you might aswell bring Baruuk, who not only sleeps and disarms everything within 50+ meters, he can also decimate most things at a great distance with his "melee" exalted weapon if he feels like it.

Sadly I think not much will chance for Vauban and Nyx because DE are afraid that some nostalgic people will get upset. It isnt uncommon, it happens in every game when you remove or change skills and abilities to a greater extent.

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Why does Bastille have an enemy cap when an ability like Strangledome doesn’t? 

That isnt true though. Bastille can be modded to hold more and you can have several of them in play at once. Strangledome actually caps at 26 enemies and cannot be increased in any way. Strangledome also cannot be thrown where needed, you plant it at your feet.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The community may be aware, but it doesnt hurt to post it as often as possible so maybe DE will be aware aswell. Because currently I doubt they are aware when looking at the Nyx and Titania "reworks". Nyx is as pointless as ever, serving no actual purpose for her team. There are plenty of frames that does what she can but far better while also bringing heavy damage to the group.

There is no meaningful use of her AoE CC, since it will just slow things down far off in the distance. She might work on mobile defense, but you can just aswell take a irradiating disarm Loki who does it all so much better and at the same range. Or since Fortuna update 2 you might aswell bring Baruuk, who not only sleeps and disarms everything within 50+ meters, he can also decimate most things at a great distance with his "melee" exalted weapon if he feels like it.

Sadly I think not much will chance for Vauban and Nyx because DE are afraid that some nostalgic people will get upset. It isnt uncommon, it happens in every game when you remove or change skills and abilities to a greater extent.

They said sometime after ESO released that they are aware of CC no longer having this mandatory need to be used.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

Basically you believe if it isn't what you perceive to be meta, then it is in jeopardy.  

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt true though. Bastille can be modded to hold more and you can have several of them in play at once. Strangledome actually caps at 26 enemies and cannot be increased in any way. Strangledome also cannot be thrown where needed, you plant it at your feet.

Strangledome not having a cap that’s effected by mods is a good thing. It means you don’t have to juggle stats to try and make everything work. In Vaubans case going for a higher cap hinders the duration, going for range hinders the cap and going for duration hinders the range. If Bastille was given the same cap lock as Strangledome it would be a significantly better ability.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Basically you believe if it isn't what you perceive to be meta, then it is in jeopardy.  

I mean CC doesn’t have as big a spot as it used to, but it still has functionality. Nidus’s 2 makes using his 1 easier. Strangledome and ensnare benefit WhipClaw. CC can stand on its own anymore but it’s not exactly dead.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

CC not useful? You must have not seen the glorious power of counter pulse, the bane of Graneer, and the saviour of OV!

Edited January 14, 2019 by (XB1)Skiller115

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Strangledome not having a cap that’s effected by mods is a good thing. It means you don’t have to juggle stats to try and make everything work. In Vaubans case going for a higher cap hinders the duration, going for range hinders the cap and going for duration hinders the range. If Bastille was given the same cap lock as Strangledome it would be a significantly better ability.

But Bastille can hold more than Strangledome, even with just the baseline stats two bastilles can suspend 24 enemies and be used at different locations. This also means that range is less important since he can spread them out as he likes where they are needed. And with maxed efficiency the skill costs barely nothing.

Currently Vauban is one of the simplest frames to build because all he does is CC. And with how his kit works the main stat is efficiency, after that you are left with 6 slots and an exilus to spread out ondura, strength and range. Stretch, Intensify/Umbral, Primed Cont, Constitution/Augur Message, Vitality/Umbral and then one slot left for whatever you want along with exilus. Range is really only worthwhile if you use alot of vortex, which I personally dislike compared to Bastille since vortex removes the possibility for easy headshots.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

35 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But Bastille can hold more than Strangledome, even with just the baseline stats two bastilles can suspend 24 enemies and be used at different locations. This also means that range is less important since he can spread them out as he likes where they are needed. And with maxed efficiency the skill costs barely nothing.

Currently Vauban is one of the simplest frames to build because all he does is CC. And with how his kit works the main stat is efficiency, after that you are left with 6 slots and an exilus to spread out ondura, strength and range. Stretch, Intensify/Umbral, Primed Cont, Constitution/Augur Message, Vitality/Umbral and then one slot left for whatever you want along with exilus. Range is really only worthwhile if you use alot of vortex, which I personally dislike compared to Bastille since vortex removes the possibility for easy headshots.

Now why do all that when I can just do one slide attack with a heavy blade zaw and kill everyone within the same radius of that Bastille?

[Xzorn]

You've made a mistake in comparing good CC with normal CC.

Good CC protects the team from Nullifiers bubbles. Other CC does not.

Nyx was underplayed because players either didn't understand her kit, which I see a lot since her rework or because there simply isn't a need to CC in the level range DE has us stuck in. When you cannot afford to take a hit, that CC is a game changer. Nyx trivializes Defense, Interception and Excavations missions which btw Excavation is only about killing the Power Cell units. Not all units. Loki can trivialize everything but Exterminate and Interception since he doesn't have to use his Rad augment.

The point of "Good" CC frames is so your group doesn't have to sit inside a bubble, hide inside Void sewers or behind Volt's shield. They can move around the room. Do what they want and not be constrained. DE seems to have no problem with frames like Ash doing nothing but kill so they should have no problem with frames that do nothing but CC.

The eHP gap between frames and the total lack of quickly scaling enemies is the reason for a CC frame being underused.

There's something wrong with the game; not the frames.