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Makunogo

ideas on making content harder/tougher/engaging/ect discussion

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Well, here are some of my thoughts... With different effects on potential difficulty...

- Reduce level scaling across the board. Enemy HP, enemy damage, player mods... I just get this feeling that the game seemed really easy at first, and later on it's bullet sponges everywhere, which, while making the game harder, kind of really breaks immersion. Elites could still do heavy damage.
- More enemy mobility. It's rather good all-in-all, but could be better. Like ranged enemies being more quick at finding cover. Grineer Hellions and enemies in Orb Vallis are a good example of mobility.
- Warframes staggering when taking continued fire. Not affecting mobility, perhaps, but disabling the ability to attack or cast for a couple of seconds, causing you to pull back. Perhaps automatically crouching and briefly reducing enemy accuracy.
- Reduce enemy accuracy while you're doing parkour maneuvers. Run-and-gun, bullet jumping or sliding into melee would helps mitigate the stagger mentioned above. Could be used to counter "dangerous" enemies - for example, a Grineer Ballista would do heavy damage, but will likely miss you if you bullet-jump just before the shot.
- Bullet-jumping shouldn't be faster than sprinting. Perhaps decrease the speed boost from sliding, while making sprint a bit faster, gradually accelerate you over a couple of seconds (breaking when running into something). Take away the warframes' natural method of traversing large distances, replacing it with old boring legwork. 😁
- Increase damage multipliers for hitting weak spots, and allow backstabs on enemies that are currently shooting at another teammate. Instead of the current melee combo multiplier, perhaps. Make the choice of targets in melee matter more (in essence, allow backstabs on enemies in any way distracted from attacking you.)
- Allow most enemies to perform melee timed blocks - including ranged attackers. If you have a melee weapon equipped, or if you start quick melee, a nearby enemy may randomly assume a blocking stance, which can deflect your attack if you hit this enemy within 0.5 seconds. If your hit comes a bit earlier, your attack succeeds. If a bit later, then it succeeds but with some damage reduction.
- Reduce the number of self-revives. I feel like 2 would be enough. I think there should be more opportunities to survive, and less one-hit-kills, anyway. I once failed a solo mission after using all revives - it felt like the failure took too long for such poor preparation on my part. 😏

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2 minutes ago, ArgusXen said:


- Warframes staggering when taking continued fire. Not affecting mobility, perhaps, but disabling the ability to attack or cast for a couple of seconds, causing you to pull back. Perhaps automatically crouching and briefly reducing enemy accuracy.
- Reduce enemy accuracy while you're doing parkour maneuvers. Run-and-gun, bullet jumping or sliding into melee would helps mitigate the stagger mentioned above.
- Bullet-jumping shouldn't be faster than sprinting. Perhaps decrease the speed boost from sliding, while making sprint a bit faster, gradually accelerate you over a couple of seconds (breaking when running into something). Take away the warframes' natural method of traversing large distances, replacing it with old boring legwork. 😁
- Increase damage multipliers for hitting weak spots, and allow backstabs on enemies that are currently shooting at another teammate. Instead of the current melee combo multiplier, perhaps. Make the choice of targets in melee matter more (in essence, allow backstabs on enemies in any way distracted from attacking you.)
 

most of ideas are ok except for these.

1. absolutely no! there is far too many mobs spawning in one session to validate having every single bullet from every mobs cause a stagger even if it doesn't effect mobility and there is never a safe spot to pull back to so you wont be able to do anything.

2.this is a space ninja video game with space magic,  why would you even considering nerfing bullet jumping when we have stuff like the plains and orb vallus and have overly large maps, and a rework for gas cities that is intended to use the bullet jump feature you are suggesting to nerf. but the sprint idea was nice, we can have multiple ways of traversing areas.

3. ever since the invincible eximus requiring you to hit weakspots happen i am always uneasy with adding any more weakspots to the game. and i am not sure on that other bit with backstabbing though i will say backstabbing is too situational to validate replace melee combo multiplier.

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It's not possible to make chalenging content without nerfing (BREAKING the legs) of players first.

Otherwise the devs will just come up with another Trial like set of missions that resume to meta.

Problems is, players will weep their body fluids dry the momment the devs take anything away from them.

It's PAST THE POINT where making thougher, more agile, more damage immune mobs can play any difference. Mobs with outstanding health/armor will be dealt with meta damage builds. Mobs with outstanding mechanics will be dealt with CC meta builds.

It's not possible to design chalenge that wont be broken by the meta without breaking the meta itself first.

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16 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

absolutely no!

Yeah, probably... 🙂 I was just thinking of something as a counter to my other suggestions, namely, reduced enemy damage scaling and accuracy when you parkour. And I didn't mean "every single bullet", of course - more like, in a situation where right now you would get killed, you will instead get staggered (and then killed if you don't act on it quickly enough). But as a counter to that, you get less self-revives.

 

16 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

why would you even considering nerfing bullet jumping

I was mostly thinking about boosting sprinting instead... making accelerating-over-time sprint to have the same max speed as someone doing bullet jumps (it just weirds me out a bit that everyone, myself included, slides on the floor and makes spins in the air to run faster instead of, you know, running). 😃 Sprinting at max speed could have a different animation to look more natural.

As for nerfing bullet jumping... I'm not really suggesting that, but still - bullet jumps are a good way to jump high, or initiate a melee attack (and I suggest for them to make you harder to hit), but they don't strictly need to be the fastest way of horizontal travel, especially if sprinting becomes better. I mean, I use it a lot for that. I'd prefer not to. 🙂 (while PoE and Orb Vallis have their own means for really fast travel.)

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15 hours ago, Duduminador said:

It's not possible to make chalenging content without nerfing (BREAKING the legs) of players first.

Otherwise the devs will just come up with another Trial like set of missions that resume to meta.

Problems is, players will weep their body fluids dry the momment the devs take anything away from them.

It's PAST THE POINT where making thougher, more agile, more damage immune mobs can play any difference. Mobs with outstanding health/armor will be dealt with meta damage builds. Mobs with outstanding mechanics will be dealt with CC meta builds.

It's not possible to design chalenge that wont be broken by the meta without breaking the meta itself first.

valid point. though i hope that comes with some other balances too. 

my opinion on what DE needs to work on is

the enemy levels and their scaling of levels since thats part of the reason people go for meta

balance out the mob numbers spawn. if we want to improve enemies to be challenging i think it would be best if DE goes for less equals more so its less hard on computers on the lower spectrum so less lag, and think of fair difficulty.

re balance the drop chances of items across the board.

rework ammo economy. we have way too much ammo for things like zarr and what not were it feels like you can blow up your orbiter with just the ammo that you have in the zarr.

re tweak some of the squad restores.

drop energy draining eximus at least. though if DE truly found a way to balance all warframe abilities then we don't need nullifiers or their friends.

maybe some small tweaks on zenurik, rage, and arcane energize. or if DE actually felt brave enough put cool downs on abilities.

just rework whips and any other long ranged weapons so its not macro and spin to win, give whips anything else like possibly make them have combo multiplier bonuses.

look i would prefer a fair difficulty and would prefer nothing that feels like i might as well bash my head against a brick wall and expect it too move.

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All melee enemies should have their movement speed increased 100%

Enemy speed in general should be increased especially as enemy levels increase.

Keep us on our toes...

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On 2019-01-25 at 8:47 AM, ArgusXen said:

Yeah, probably... 🙂 I was just thinking of something as a counter to my other suggestions, namely, reduced enemy damage scaling and accuracy when you parkour. And I didn't mean "every single bullet", of course - more like, in a situation where right now you would get killed, you will instead get staggered (and then killed if you don't act on it quickly enough). But as a counter to that, you get less self-revives.

 

I was mostly thinking about boosting sprinting instead... making accelerating-over-time sprint to have the same max speed as someone doing bullet jumps (it just weirds me out a bit that everyone, myself included, slides on the floor and makes spins in the air to run faster instead of, you know, running). 😃 Sprinting at max speed could have a different animation to look more natural.

As for nerfing bullet jumping... I'm not really suggesting that, but still - bullet jumps are a good way to jump high, or initiate a melee attack (and I suggest for them to make you harder to hit), but they don't strictly need to be the fastest way of horizontal travel, especially if sprinting becomes better. I mean, I use it a lot for that. I'd prefer not to. 🙂 (while PoE and Orb Vallis have their own means for really fast travel.)

Parkour 2.0 already vastly slowed down the speed of the game. It wouldn't be the same game at all if you replaced parkour traversal with sprinting, even if it were the same speed.

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there are some ideas in here that aren't too terribly bad but i would like to strike a point and show that trying to make content that is harder/tougher/engaging/ect is more difficulty ironically then you guys think.

now here is probably the worst idea for making content more harder. make survival missions fail if the players kill too much enemies or have too high ammount of air, were the faction pulls out and bombs the ship everyone is on.

 this idea is just horrible because just about every player that plays this game is in a mob killing trance and therefor will cause way too much fails and cause players to rant and rage about it.

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Option to increase level difficulty before the start of the mission (with increased rewards) and with the enemy difficulty an increase of enemy speed.

I think enemy speed is big issue and should be greatly increased

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12 hours ago, (XB1)GmanM1 said:

Option to increase level difficulty before the start of the mission (with increased rewards) and with the enemy difficulty an increase of enemy speed.

I think enemy speed is big issue and should be greatly increased

yes speed is an issue i have been seeing with the enemies. but note adding boosted maneuverability will cause the need to balance the other status of the mobs.

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On 2019-01-25 at 5:31 AM, Duduminador said:

It's not possible to make chalenging content without nerfing (BREAKING the legs) of players first.

Agree. I also brainstorm a while back, thinking how to make the game more difficult without just simply adding more health and damage to the enemies. Turns out, it's really hard because of how much power and tools that the character have. Some frames does deserve some nerfs, and then we can have that challenging content.

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8 hours ago, kingvaldemir said:

Agree. I also brainstorm a while back, thinking how to make the game more difficult without just simply adding more health and damage to the enemies. Turns out, it's really hard because of how much power and tools that the character have. Some frames does deserve some nerfs, and then we can have that challenging content.

well i am pretty sure no ones going to like but what about taking a hint from how anthems mechanics look so far.  give enemies more health and armor and then have certain abilities work as priming (aka armor debuffs or something to fallow up with) examples of potential ones reworking chroma's spectral scream into this idea.

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On 2019-01-23 at 6:39 PM, NocheLuz said:

Remove sliding and Bullet jumping.

Also decrease the speed of climbing and any parkor... That should make the game more challenging...

well, that will also make Warframe (the game, not the frames) not Warframe (the game) any more...

The entire point is to keep warframe "Warframe" while making the game more challenging. Removing two of the most important moves and making the most important method of traversal will only make the game worse, even for Dark Souls players like me. I feel like the game should be harder but should still keep its defining attributes. The best way to do this is again a difficulty setting, such as set your own in solo or vote for one in groups. 

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Make the enemies have mods and spawn more frequently

 

For example of mods on enemies

resistance to fire/cold/shock/toxin

Resistance to slash/impact/puncture

When died, nearby allies will receive 40% reduce incoming damage

Nearby enemies will receive 30% more movement speed

When died, it will exploded dealing damage to it's enemy

When died, it shock nearby enemies

Full resistance to puncture/impact/slash/fire/cold/shock/toxin/viral/corrosive/magnetic/radiation

 

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il y a une heure, Genesix6 a dit :

Make the enemies have mods and spawn more frequently

 

For example of mods on enemies

resistance to fire/cold/shock/toxin

Resistance to slash/impact/puncture

When died, nearby allies will receive 40% reduce incoming damage

Nearby enemies will receive 30% more movement speed

When died, it will exploded dealing damage to it's enemy

When died, it shock nearby enemies

Full resistance to puncture/impact/slash/fire/cold/shock/toxin/viral/corrosive/magnetic/radiation

 

I don't really like that... you are basically saying : add more eximus type...

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1 minute ago, TheSixteenth said:

I don't really like that... you are basically saying : add more eximus type...

Well yeah, I mean it's more better than being surrounded by enemies that constantly knockbacks you and having enemies that use Bounce constantly just to make you randomly jump to any place

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il y a 5 minutes, Genesix6 a dit :

Well yeah, I mean it's more better than being surrounded by enemies that constantly knockbacks you and having enemies that use Bounce constantly just to make you randomly jump to any place

Well, they can add a rythm game where you need to press U I O P with the prompt and the more you miss, the less damage you do, down to 5%, irreversible until the end of the mission. So, you basically have to play the rythm game and shoot and move at the same time, that should be a challenge, as you only have 2 hands, U I O P being on the other side of AWSD and not on your mouse. Focus on the rythm game (like guitar hero), the more fighting, the harder the rythm game. Every missed "note" is -0.1% damage, up to -95% damage.

This mode is by choice and offer no extra reward beside skins and posters, you just choose to play like that. You can apply it to any mission from your Orbiter.

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On 2019-01-24 at 4:30 PM, IntheCoconut said:

The core gameplay loop of Warframe is based around repeatedly farming and leveling from 0-30 over and over again, and I don't want DE to introduce anything that would increase the time it already takes to accomplish this.

I was just about to say this... 

I mean in missions like Capture or Rescue, having the doors slam shut is already a pretty huge detriment to the players.... They want to get it over done with faster. 

 

On 2019-01-21 at 6:50 PM, Makunogo said:

MORE ENGAGING mission play.

This game is NEVER EVER going to been engaging.... no loot based game is.... which is why that specific type of game exists... 

The only thing thats going to keep players going is the loot and they will optomize all the fun, discovery and experimentation out of every single mission type to increase the consistency and efficiency into getting that loot.

Corrupted Vaults are a perfect example if this. Once you got all your Corrupted Mods what reason is there to do these missions again ?  None at all.... this is exactly why we pick Orokin Derelict Capture, Capture the target and then ignore all the enemies and search for the vault. 

Marduk (Void) is even worse because that mission is so poorly balanced it will encourage players to play that way without them even realising it... BTW I got Bullet Dance last night.

 

I could sit here and *@##$ about Warframe all day.... but let me try offering a solution.

Make Warframe Paid game. If DE is guaranteed income and profits then they won't they won't feel the need to frustrate players into paying any more since they're already getting paid.... unless they are greedy and decided to add Microtransactions then theres redemption at the point.

The Warfame Starter shouldn't include a bunch of random junk... it should have fair and equal drop rates for all rewards and reduce resource requirements for things like The Lenz and Hemma Research. 

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On 2019-01-21 at 4:50 PM, Makunogo said:

1. Each Time you trigger the alarm the BASE level of enemies in the entire mission would double.( not just once - and the base level would not lower )

2. triggering too many lockdown would trigger an AUTO FAIL timer if alarms are not shut off within the Auto fail timer (perhaps 20 seconds?) making finding and shutting off alarms a requirement rather than a passive thing to ignore

3. exp bonus* and doubling the spy rewards when NOT triggering alarms in spy missions.

* would apply to all missions with alarms *

What about missions/levels that have lockdowns triggered without the player being detected? i.e fissures, crossfire and mars surface missions (wildlife attacks), also certain special enemies such as stalker can trigger their own lockdown when they spawn which the player has no control over.

 

How about toning down the hive-mind AI and the uncontrollable lockdown triggers first, then work on player stealth (without invisibility).

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hmm interesting idea

but new players dont know wtf is alarm and duble is too much it may call some special enemies like bursa but more a field boss/miniboss squad etc.

but at different mastery level different alarm trigger penalty

actualy are missions so boring and ez in some ways like

- stealth frames spy missions

- you need to not trigger alarm only in one room that is so ....

-speed runs

 

my idea ( sorry for that chaos)

make spy missions one of the hardest but realy rewarding

at hack all 3 caches with no allarms triggered give a player possibility to choose from 3 (maybe special that cant drop normaly) items that can drop in that mission

if you trigger allarms you lose ? its so stupid that in one (not so big) map/complex enemies in "spy room" arent alerted why are they isolated from whole map ?

if you trigger alarm in first room the remaining they should start destroying the data too

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I fairly new to the game with 200 login days and mr24, but I see a fair amount of struggle from players with different parts of the game that are in place now. Everyone is different and at various experience levels and progressions. People have different levels of patience as well. It’s really hard to go more than 3 rotations without people wanting to extract, myself included sometimes. 

 

I would like to see DE add more mission types and mission conditions... all kinds of stuff. Fill the open worlds with things to accomplish. All Kinds of ideas. Watch the data to see which ones work and which one don’t work. Some people a crazy about Floofs and conservation, some people hate that stuff. Add variety because we all want different missions at different play sessions. It can’t be that hard to add more challenge and variety.

DE has unused spaces and can add piles of things to do... some of it will be an improvement to the game - some will floof, I mean flop. Be creative...

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sorry about this but lets just get into an understanding here that no one (including the devs)  know whats the right way of adding challenge or anything like that in the warframe. lets just give an example with someone that just came up with adding rhythm mode to this game, this is not curse of the necrodancer. and then for the devs and i will constantly remind everyone with the fact that DE was thinking of making eximus invincible with tiny little weak points to be the only way of wounding the eximus, right after they said they new that we didn't wanted any more enemies with invincible phases.

and the recent current content has made me so incredibly furious with bounce pads i acquired a hatred for anything that has a bounce pad. 

and i have to say almost NONE of these ideas are at anywere close to making a fun yet fair difficulty. 

for example that rhythm mode that someone suggested was to happen then when someone was to either public instanced, invited some random from region or recruting channel, or invite someone from clan or alliance chat then whole team will start crashing and burning blaming each other for falling out of rhythm in that game mode.

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As a new player, I find that the difficulty curve feels good as I progress through the quests and the star chart. The only time content starts feeling too easy or not very engaging is if I'm either running with way overpowered players or go back and do earlier planets in the star chart. I wouldn't want to change this experience for new players.

I understand that for veteran players, most of the content probably feels pretty easy (I'm far from that point). If you're proposing an increase in difficulty here are a few idea off the top of my head, for ways you could do it without too much of an effect on new players:

  • Once you complete the star chart, you unlock a hard mode for all maps.
  • Let players choose the difficulty (level range of enemies) for their mission.
  • Missions scale to the Mastery rank of your character.
  • Have optional map modifiers that add additional challenge to maps (improve mob dmg/health/AI, add more special mob encounters).
  • Have optional handicaps a player could impose on themselves for any content (similar to nightmare missions).
  • Include optional objectives to missions that improve rewards (complete mission without triggering alarms, without being detected, without dying, within limited time, with unranked equipment).

Add a modest reward for playing the more difficult content or even introduce new rewards that can only be obtained through the increased difficulty.

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2 minutes ago, Ley1.0 said:

As a new player, I find that the difficulty curve feels good as I progress through the quests and the star chart. The only time content starts feeling too easy or not very engaging is if I'm either running with way overpowered players or go back and do earlier planets in the star chart. I wouldn't want to change this experience for new players.

I understand that for veteran players, most of the content probably feels pretty easy (I'm far from that point). If you're proposing an increase in difficulty here are a few idea off the top of my head, for ways you could do it without too much of an effect on new players:

  • Once you complete the star chart, you unlock a hard mode for all maps.
  • Let players choose the difficulty (level range of enemies) for their mission.
  • Missions scale to the Mastery rank of your character.
  • Have optional map modifiers that add additional challenge to maps (improve mob dmg/health/AI, add more special mob encounters).
  • Have optional handicaps a player could impose on themselves for any content (similar to nightmare missions).
  • Include optional objectives to missions that improve rewards (complete mission without triggering alarms, without being detected, without dying, within limited time, with unranked equipment).

Add a modest reward for playing the more difficult content or even introduce new rewards that can only be obtained through the increased difficulty.

nice ideas. sorry for my little rant i had. i just get a bit irritable when people try and add random senseless hoops to jump through. claiming they want more tactical difficulty or for it to be more hard and what not have the mobs do want not stuff, and then proceed to get defensive when someone either metions this weapon or frame is too strong and whatnot. or if someone gives the idea of allowing some of the mobs to take more then 1 shot to kill.

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