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Makunogo

ideas on making content harder/tougher/engaging/ect discussion

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1 minute ago, maddragonmaster said:

an endgame build are builds that focus too much on the killing of large ammounts of mobs in the fastest ammount of time possible, and a regular build is just a build you make to enjoy the game at decent pace.

Oh, to be honest i have never min maxed, but i'm still fully capable of decimating most content, the only difference is really how quickly they all die.

 

2 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Why do we make endgame builds?

To survive and destroy endgame material without much difficulty, or to last longer in endless missions or to see how long we can last in those endless missions.

Why would we be trying to get that perfect riven roll. certainly not for the negative stats. We want the power, the one hit wonder that decimates all enemies as quickly as possible.

We want the game to be easy at the same time as we want it to be challenging. Thats my opinion atleast.

 

as stated above i have no min maxed builds but have no issue with pretty much any end game content atm, 2 years into the game im only STARTING to get mods to rank 10. i have less then 20 fully ranked mods. 

while endgame builds are nice for min maxing, its not exactly a requirement.

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I think if we as players want a challenge we should give ourselves that challenge as much as we can until DE does. Sadly the game i feel is mostly targeted to the newer player base with some veteran content that we blow through

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looking forward to more ideas from more people 😮 loving that people are starting to engage i honestly thought the thread died when i posted it 😄

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1 minute ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

I think if we as players want a challenge we should give ourselves that challenge as much as we can until DE does. Sadly the game i feel is mostly targeted to the newer player base with some veteran content that we blow through

 im very curious what DE will do. but maybe just maybe. something posted here gets used if we can work together for a very solid viable idea. 

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2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

Oh, to be honest i have never min maxed, but i'm still fully capable of decimating most content, the only difference is really how quickly they all die.

 

as stated above i have no min maxed builds but have no issue with pretty much any end game content atm, 2 years into the game im only STARTING to get mods to rank 10. i have less then 20 fully ranked mods. 

while endgame builds are nice for min maxing, its not exactly a requirement.

im just like you, ive got a ton of mods not even maxed. I play the game for the fun I can get out of it. I have a few endgame builds, because they help me to have fun without getting frustrated at certain things. Thus making the game too easy for me. I'm not playing warframe for the challenge but i understand how theres no challenge when we negate the difficulty through our mods, weapons, arcanes and fancy meta killer cc frames

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anyways this is just a suggestion but i suggest DE try and  re find warframes difficulty footing before trying to make the difficulty hard. 

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Buff damage enemies do to you with normal guns by a bit. Make them a bit more aggressive. Also energy gain should be nerfed a bit to make things more challenging. Riven mods should be toned down across the board. Buff defense of enemies and add weak spots, or more susceptable to certain status effects.

 

Making an artificial challenge for yourself by removing or limiting mods is a very unrewarding idea. There is no point in doing that without the gameplay changing to be more engaging. 

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Add an enemy which randomly spawns and tries to backstab the player, if successful he steals one of player mods (not unique ones like Umbral mods).

There you go, you have something to fear from, and you will always have to keep grinding mods and endo muahahahaha 😄

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2 minutes ago, Ker-Blammo said:

Buff damage enemies do to you with normal guns by a bit. Make them a bit more aggressive. Also energy gain should be nerfed a bit to make things more challenging. Riven mods should be toned down across the board. Buff defense of enemies and add weak spots, or more susceptable to certain status effects.

 

Making an artificial challenge for yourself by removing or limiting mods is a very unrewarding idea. There is no point in doing that without the gameplay changing to be more engaging. 

those suggestions make me a little bit nervous considering if you take a deep look into warframes current scaling of enemies, and nerfing energy regain is a poor suggestion considering we already have energy draining eximus around we wouldn't even be able to recover enough energy to make the idea rewarding, toning down rivens across the board will end of nerfing already weak weapons that need them to compete with the already strong weapons.

i would rather make an artificial challage for myself rather then have DE make the games difficulty feel like it is cheating against me.

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The Shadow Stalker kills half of the team just by showing up and steals the frames of the non-dead team members.
If you want your frames back you have to kill the Shadow Stalker in operator form and finish your main mission within 5 minutes.
Dead team members cannot be revived.

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I would like the idea of fighting a specter of ourselves. Like we enter into a mission and like the stalker we could face this anomoly where we face an exact copy of our warframe and current equipped mods and weapons. Not talking specters like the ones we can summon or that we fight in the rail. But exact copies ourselves that are equivalently strong. Idk just a thought. Although we would still probably one shot ourselves (specter)

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They show on the roadmap theyre working on some difficulty rework, maybe who knows its on the works already.

But yeah to make real difficulty in this game thats not staggers, knockdowns, energy drain, invul phases, they have to rework many things.

Like how damage works, health, enemy level, need to have a cap so it can be balanced around that.

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13 minutes ago, --DSP--Jetstream said:

They show on the roadmap theyre working on some difficulty rework, maybe who knows its on the works already.

But yeah to make real difficulty in this game thats not staggers, knockdowns, energy drain, invul phases, they have to rework many things.

Like how damage works, health, enemy level, need to have a cap so it can be balanced around that.

finally someone who has a valid point that wont try and make a suggestion for "challanging" content that ends up with the possibility of cheating the player.

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Mission mods that players can add to any mission so everyone can play their favorites and tune the difficulty to their liking. These mods would only be usable if you have already cleard that mission (I feel like saying "Thank you, Captain Obvious" to myself right now).

How would mission mods work?
Enemy category mods; increased health, damage, extra damage as damage type (for  example every enemy can proc radiation), speed (movement, attack) reduced cooldown of special abilities etc.
Player category mods; use specific weapon / weapon type, all abilities disabled, unable to use specific mods, each mod unlocks after x time spent / x waves clear in survival / defence, melee only, stealth kills only, no life and / or energy orbs drop, no health / energy regen (even with mods or focus school choises), arcanes disbaled etc.
Environment mods; the stuff we now have in Nightmare modes + things like bad stuff on the ground so parkour is needed to survive.

What about rewards, why would anyone want to use mission mods?
Rewards would scale based on the amount, type and difficulty modifier of selected mods. Maybe even add an extra multiplier or reward for using a frame that has a bigger disadvantage with the selected mods. For example running a no shileds mod with a frame that heavily relies on shields. This would not only increase the difficulty, but also encourage players to think outside of the box when making builds.

How to avoid people running absolutely insane missions and getting too many rewards?
There would be a limit of how many mods a mission can have. For example
Tier 1 = 1 mods
Tier 2 = 3 mods
Tier 3 = 5 mods
Tier 4 = 8 mods

Where are these ideas from? 99% Path of Exile with a bit of Warhammer 40k: Inquisitor Martyr mixed in so nothing really original here. Just something that might balance out the challenge seekers and the relaxation seekers of this community without making one side frustrated and angry.

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8 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

Mission mods that players can add to any mission so everyone can play their favorites and tune the difficulty to their liking. These mods would only be usable if you have already cleard that mission (I feel like saying "Thank you, Captain Obvious" to myself right now).

How would mission mods work?
Enemy category mods; increased health, damage, extra damage as damage type (for  example every enemy can proc radiation), speed (movement, attack) reduced cooldown of special abilities etc.
Player category mods; use specific weapon / weapon type, all abilities disabled, unable to use specific mods, each mod unlocks after x time spent / x waves clear in survival / defence, melee only, stealth kills only, no life and / or energy orbs drop, no health / energy regen (even with mods or focus school choises), arcanes disbaled etc.
Environment mods; the stuff we now have in Nightmare modes + things like bad stuff on the ground so parkour is needed to survive.

What about rewards, why would anyone want to use mission mods?
Rewards would scale based on the amount, type and difficulty modifier of selected mods. Maybe even add an extra multiplier or reward for using a frame that has a bigger disadvantage with the selected mods. For example running a no shileds mod with a frame that heavily relies on shields. This would not only increase the difficulty, but also encourage players to think outside of the box when making builds.

How to avoid people running absolutely insane missions and getting too many rewards?
There would be a limit of how many mods a mission can have. For example
Tier 1 = 1 mods
Tier 2 = 3 mods
Tier 3 = 5 mods
Tier 4 = 8 mods

Where are these ideas from? 99% Path of Exile with a bit of Warhammer 40k: Inquisitor Martyr mixed in so nothing really original here. Just something that might balance out the challenge seekers and the relaxation seekers of this community without making one side frustrated and angry.

my only issue is that this would be that this idea would be adding crap to a difficulty setting in warframe that can go from walking and slashing simulator to one tiny mistake one wave of lag will send you into a stress induced frustration as you get the failed screening. arbitration is one of these examples. as i can't stand arbitration, not only to they stretch out the dang mission mode they add little pests that give an entire ground invincibility  and have a one life game ends where warframes host migrations are infamously infamous for trashing the whole game mode just because one person bumbled and died and doesn't have the decent patience to wait in case he is hosting and i don't know read, figure out what he did wrong, look into build ideas, or something. its something that i would do if i actually cared about arbitration.

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2 hours ago, --DSP--Jetstream said:

They show on the roadmap theyre working on some difficulty rework, maybe who knows its on the works already.

But yeah to make real difficulty in this game thats not staggers, knockdowns, energy drain, invul phases, they have to rework many things.

Like how damage works, health, enemy level, need to have a cap so it can be balanced around that.

that would be a very high cap, you can see many videos of people cheezing max level enemies (9999)

so this is more of " make a damage 4.0" but even with that.. 

the only difference is the numbers being shown.

id also like to say. "staggers,knockdowns,invul phases, drain on power source(energy)" is tactical difficulty. 

what else can enemies really do? what are some of your ideas for ways to make the enemies "real difficult?"

 i'm trying to steer the thread away from the shouting of " this needs to go, this needs to go" 

they are all blanket statements with nothing to work with

and more looking for "how about we try this, could this be implemented? here is my ideas " 

tho your comment is the main reason i didn't touch frames at all in my idea as with so many variations is practically impossible to make something equally difficult for the frames per say. in that effect i think the best route is to directly affect the players/environment vs the actual frame itself. 

not saying damage is ok. but even when or if thats fixed or more balanced out we still have pretty OP abilities as a whole.

 

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1 hour ago, Leyvonne said:

Mission mods that players can add to any mission so everyone can play their favorites and tune the difficulty to their liking. These mods would only be usable if you have already cleard that mission (I feel like saying "Thank you, Captain Obvious" to myself right now).

How would mission mods work?
Enemy category mods; increased health, damage, extra damage as damage type (for  example every enemy can proc radiation), speed (movement, attack) reduced cooldown of special abilities etc.
Player category mods; use specific weapon / weapon type, all abilities disabled, unable to use specific mods, each mod unlocks after x time spent / x waves clear in survival / defence, melee only, stealth kills only, no life and / or energy orbs drop, no health / energy regen (even with mods or focus school choises), arcanes disbaled etc.
Environment mods; the stuff we now have in Nightmare modes + things like bad stuff on the ground so parkour is needed to survive.

What about rewards, why would anyone want to use mission mods?
Rewards would scale based on the amount, type and difficulty modifier of selected mods. Maybe even add an extra multiplier or reward for using a frame that has a bigger disadvantage with the selected mods. For example running a no shileds mod with a frame that heavily relies on shields. This would not only increase the difficulty, but also encourage players to think outside of the box when making builds.

How to avoid people running absolutely insane missions and getting too many rewards?
There would be a limit of how many mods a mission can have. For example
Tier 1 = 1 mods
Tier 2 = 3 mods
Tier 3 = 5 mods
Tier 4 = 8 mods

Where are these ideas from? 99% Path of Exile with a bit of Warhammer 40k: Inquisitor Martyr mixed in so nothing really original here. Just something that might balance out the challenge seekers and the relaxation seekers of this community without making one side frustrated and angry.

i just wanted to mention we have a Shield frame coming that uses shield to power her abilities.... hmm i wonder how she is going to work in nightmare missions.. aren't those no shield? kind of curious if DE even thought about that now lmao. would the abilities then channel from her health?

when u say mission mods do you mean like mission cards to active before starting a mission? or actual mods that go on the frame? 

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4 hours ago, Makunogo said:

why not have harder enemies and some higher scaling?

i wasnt around when manics were scary. however i did have a greater appreciation of the enemy types when i was newer at the game. heck the infested scared the crap out of me lol.

Well, yes they can scale too, but difficult wouldn't be dependant on obscenely high armor/health numbers or ohk level damage. 

The first iteration of the manic was like a mini boss. Your had to listen for his laughs and if he caught you off guard he would pounce on you and scratch away 70% or so of your health. He also had a damage cap so you couldn't one shot him. He was punishment for leaving alarms on. Sure, I get that it frustrated some people to actually have an enemy capable of killing you, but give us an elite mode for those of us that enjoy situational awareness. All it took to defeat the manic was paying attention, and being quick enough to hit him when he appeared. 

I remember when doing long void defense missions we had to have designated bombard hunters because if you just let them spawn and sashay around at will, they could make quick work of your entire team AND the objective. Now.... They're just tall bullet sponges, you barely even care when they show up. I want it back to where I see a bombard, in anticipation of it's attack, i automatically do evasive maneuvers towards it to take it out because a) it's probably already fired a rocket at me b) it'll do it again if I don't deal with him swiftly. Sure...some felt blindsided by then, but only because they refused to even try to anticipate the enemy. I understand that not everyone wants to become this skilled ninja Warframe player that has enemy tendencies patterns figured out, but give us a mode for that kind it gameplay. 

I had no problems avoiding hooks, stumbles, poison,etc. It wasn't cheesy to me, I still had an overwhelming advantage. 

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4 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

when u say mission mods do you mean like mission cards to active before starting a mission? or actual mods that go on the frame? 

I mean actual mods that go into a mission panel thingy that can be opened when selecting a mission. After that you'd have a choise between the normal mission and the modded one the same way we now have normal, alert, nightmare and so on. The mods would stay saved until the player changes them so there would be minimal need to mess with the UI between runs or when selecting another mission.

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5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Well, yes they can scale too, but difficult wouldn't be dependant on obscenely high armor/health numbers or ohk level damage. 

The first iteration of the manic was like a mini boss. Your had to listen for his laughs and if he caught you off guard he would pounce on you and scratch away 70% or so of your health. He also had a damage cap so you couldn't one shot him. He was punishment for leaving alarms on. Sure, I get that it frustrated some people to actually have an enemy capable of killing you, but give us an elite mode for those of us that enjoy situational awareness. All it took to defeat the manic was paying attention, and being quick enough to hit him when he appeared. 

I remember when doing long void defense missions we had to have designated bombard hunters because if you just let them spawn and sashay around at will, they could make quick work of your entire team AND the objective. Now.... They're just tall bullet sponges, you barely even care when they show up. I want it back to where I see a bombard, in anticipation of it's attack, i automatically do evasive maneuvers towards it to take it out because a) it's probably already fired a rocket at me b) it'll do it again if I don't deal with him swiftly. Sure...some felt blindsided by then, but only because they refused to even try to anticipate the enemy. I understand that not everyone wants to become this skilled ninja Warframe player that has enemy tendencies patterns figured out, but give us a mode for that kind it gameplay. 

I had no problems avoiding hooks, stumbles, poison,etc. It wasn't cheesy to me, I still had an overwhelming advantage. 

that actually sounds pretty fun. its true i shut off my brain when i do missions for a while as its mostly become pretty trivial its sad. i wish i was around back then to at least experience it 😮

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13 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

that actually sounds pretty fun. its true i shut off my brain when i do missions for a while as its mostly become pretty trivial its sad. i wish i was around back then to at least experience it 😮

I thought it was awesome. There was a time when you heard a sniper aiming it's weapon, you just KNEW you had to get out of the way because they had you in their sites and were about to kill you or do serious damage.

How did you counter that? Evade, look for potential sniper locations, parkour to them, kill them, return to decimating grunts. 

Some people just never got with the idea that a sniper should be able to get the drop on you, so they nerfed it's damage and reaction time to barely mean anything now. Now, they're just weak enemies. They added the red sniper dot, which was IMO the only change needed.

My point is that the game does actually have tons of creative enemies with specific tactics to defeat. If DE were too truly let them shine,  it could be VERY satisfying for some players. 

Nullifiers changes were decent. Did you know there was a time when they had powerful snipers too? So you had to either whittle down their bubble on the move or, close the distance (less accuracy) and dash into the bubble to make quick work of them. There was more than one factor you had to consider when facing them. 

The mechanics are there. DE just needs to unleashe them. It's not that the Devs are clueless, its that the majority of players DONT want to be challenged.. Thus everything gets nerfed to feel like there's all just reskins of grunts running towards their death. 

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5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Well, yes they can scale too, but difficult wouldn't be dependant on obscenely high armor/health numbers or ohk level damage. 

The first iteration of the manic was like a mini boss. Your had to listen for his laughs and if he caught you off guard he would pounce on you and scratch away 70% or so of your health. He also had a damage cap so you couldn't one shot him. He was punishment for leaving alarms on. Sure, I get that it frustrated some people to actually have an enemy capable of killing you, but give us an elite mode for those of us that enjoy situational awareness. All it took to defeat the manic was paying attention, and being quick enough to hit him when he appeared. 

I remember when doing long void defense missions we had to have designated bombard hunters because if you just let them spawn and sashay around at will, they could make quick work of your entire team AND the objective. Now.... They're just tall bullet sponges, you barely even care when they show up. I want it back to where I see a bombard, in anticipation of it's attack, i automatically do evasive maneuvers towards it to take it out because a) it's probably already fired a rocket at me b) it'll do it again if I don't deal with him swiftly. Sure...some felt blindsided by then, but only because they refused to even try to anticipate the enemy. I understand that not everyone wants to become this skilled ninja Warframe player that has enemy tendencies patterns figured out, but give us a mode for that kind it gameplay. 

I had no problems avoiding hooks, stumbles, poison,etc. It wasn't cheesy to me, I still had an overwhelming advantage. 

the reason people thought those stuff is cheesed is that warframe has a habit of spawning ludicrous amount of these fricking enemies. kill one bombard and about 5 more would spawn some were in its place. kill one parasite or leach eximus and 20 would spawn in its place. it is overly cheep. if they want us to be able to focus on high priority targets then for the love of all that is fun give us the time and notification of said troubling targets are here. the reason monster hunter series is so good at this part is because (a) they make the high priority noticeable and the main target most of the time (B) they don't have 20-50 mini targets doing pot shots at you while your busy with the main target.  (c) they make some of the targets most damaging skills have telegraphed to them.  

i can agree with the giving the option but DE needs to at first find their difficulties footing and attempt a scaling 2.0 or 3.0 before they constantly try to shove more and more content for the challenge people crave.

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I just made this.

Nothing on the "Reward" part. Just the "Difficulty".

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11 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

the reason people thought those stuff is cheesed is that warframe has a habit of spawning ludicrous amount of these fricking enemies. kill one bombard and about 5 more would spawn some were in its place. kill one parasite or leach eximus and 20 would spawn in its place. it is overly cheep. if they want us to be able to focus on high priority targets then for the love of all that is fun give us the time and notification of said troubling targets are here. the reason monster hunter series is so good at this part is because (a) they make the high priority noticeable and the main target most of the time (B) they don't have 20-50 mini targets doing pot shots at you while your busy with the main target.  (c) they make some of the targets most damaging skills have telegraphed to them.  

i can agree with the giving the option but DE needs to at first find their difficulties footing and attempt a scaling 2.0 or 3.0 before they constantly try to shove more and more content for the challenge people crave.

I don't remember the spawning being that crazy, but I still remember successfully competing 90% of my missions. It was more than doable....and that was when revives actually took skill. 

Also, enemies don't always need to telegraph their attacks. You should just know what's coming after a while. They rarely apeared right behind you, they usually spawned from a closet at least. 

I didn't need blaring horns to announce a coming bombard. I just anticipated that one should be spawning and put myself in a situation to maintain the advantage. Don't just run into the room.... Dive in and be prepared to make the next move BEFORE getting hooked by an ancient. At MR 20+ you should KNOW there's going to be one there.

People want good A.I. , wouldn't good a.i try to set you up? Wouldn't they make you pay for just routinely walking into the next room? 

We have more than enough power at our disposal to start certain encounters from a disadvantage. So what if the enemies gets the drop on us every now and then? We can heal, immobilize, and recover like nothing, easily turning the tides back to our advantage. 

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4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't remember the spawning being that crazy, but I still remember successfully competing 90% of my missions. It was more than doable....and that was when revives actually took skill. 

Also, enemies don't always need to telegraph their attacks. You should just know what's coming after a while. They rarely apeared right behind you, they usually spawned from a closet at least. 

I didn't need blaring horns to announce a coming bombard. I just anticipated that one should be spawning and put myself in a situation to maintain the advantage. Don't just run into the room.... Dive in and be prepared to make the next move BEFORE getting hooked by an ancient. At MR 20+ you should KNOW there's going to be one there.

People want good A.I. , wouldn't good a.i try to set you up? Wouldn't they make you pay for just routinely walking into the next room? 

We have more than enough power at our disposal to start certain encounters from a disadvantage. So what if the enemies gets the drop on us every now and then? We can heal, immobilize, and recover like nothing, easily turning the tides back to our advantage. 

thats the main reason i am against adding any more difficulty in warframe till the scaling is back in order. we can do all those stuff that you just listed that in order for the AI to keep up and press against us the AI needs to CHEAT in order to give artificial difficult. the AI needs to abuse the heck out of knockbacks, ability canceling stuff, bear traps, and what ever else that could give someone an aneurysm when playing the game. and who the heck wants the AI to play dirty in a mmo that at times feels like they throw mobs and everything at you like a dynasty warrior game.

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