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I Tried Everything (Ashgate)

Torrempesta

By Torrempesta,
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Torrempesta

Torrempesta

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I swear to god, I tried everything.

Every build.

I tried a full Umbra build, which is kinda nice.
I tried a Fatal TP build, which can be useful.
I even tried the new Seeking Shuriken build with Redeemer Prime and Tox/Viral/Slash procs, which indeed is quite strong.

But it's all useless.
Ash still can't be played efficiently.

Why? Because (and I will never grow tired repeating it) we still have tons of WFs who can clear the room with half the effort, the time and the mechanics that Ash requires.

Ash rotation is, indeed, quite fun and interesting! He is maybe the only WF who can/must actually use ALL 4 abilities in order to function... But this same matter forces him in a Solo style type of gameplay.
You can't prepare your enemies with Seeking Shuriken in order to obliterate them with BS! Here comes a random Beyblade killing everything.
You can't perform a BS on that large number of enemies! Look, there it is Mesa clearing the room from 50m away!
Ah-ha! I got that enemy with FTP! Oh wait, he got killed by Banshee/Saryn from the other room...

Well, maybe he can tank? Of course not, he has no kit for that and his armor is too low!
Can he perform some cool CC? Of course not, he has nothing beside Smoke Screen and any random Rhino can do better. Hell, even Harrow can!

He doesn't even have the opportunity to perform decently because, even tho he is an Assassin Frame, he as very low Power Pool.

And please, PLEASE! Don't start with your "But I can play Ash perfectly! You are just a noob!" or "There are dozens of Ashes! DOZENS!".
No. Just don't.
You can indeed be an "Ash Main"; but how good do you perform in a mission?

"Ash is better at high lvl missions!", mmh, true, how many times did you do a 90minutes survival or a 90waves defense?
On average these missions last 35 minutes... at best.
And WFs like Ash (or Harrow) have literally no time to show how useful they are.

Look: I even am not an Ash fanboy... really, I always found him boring and redundant, but damn! In high lvl missions? A true blessing.
There was literally no reason for DE to penalize him this much... "We don't want a 1-Button-to-Win kind of Frame."
Fine, What about Banshee? Saryn? Mesa? Revenant? Atlas? Excalibur (okok, he has a decent kit, but how many players just press 4 and go with that?)? Ember (still wrecks at low level missions that you have to rush)?

Loki is better than Ash because you don't have to rely on strength and his invisibility lasts longer... and he is faster.
Ivara has an exalted weapon and gives you the freedom to use it however you want (still boring frame TBH, but I have used her more efficiently than Ash, enjoying the game more).

Really: Ash needs a buff, he needs his old ultimate back. Give it less range, an higher cost (but also give him more power FHS), but really: Ash needs to go back on his steps. Of course DE can't nerf Mesa, they have no room for that, or Saryn (who has even been fixed not so long ago... her ultimate did not work with her spores and still, she wrecked everything), so the only reasonable conclusion is to give Ash the ability to clear his little safe space, his little front lawn, with the rage of a thousand blinding suns.

 

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Torrempesta

Torrempesta

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7 minutes ago, Pyromaniaque said:

You're actually allowed to have fun and no min-max everything...

I know Ash is not top tier, but I'm still using him all the time because I love him :3

If Ash does not fit your playstyle, try Saryn, or Mesa, if you just want to be this guy who carries everyone ^^

 

The problem is I can't have fun if there is nothing left to kill... for an assassin frame... You enjoy it? Good for you! Really! But wouldn't it be more fun for you too if he got back to his prime? (No pun intended).

4 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

I agree.

Armor stripping of sortie assasinations is pretty much Ash's only job for me. But at least he is pretty good at that.

Which is not a bad thing, but maybe it's better suited for a support frame who can do that more efficiently? Nekros does it! In his full tank build he can actually reduce enemies armor by something like 70% (even more I suspect), but with just 1 button in a huge area! 
With Ash? *1... 1... 1-1-1-1-1-1... 1... 1-1-1... etc etc* pretty boring...

If you are familiar with Talon, an assassin in LoL, Ash Shuriken could be like an ability of Talon: in a cone he damages the enemies. Period. Easier and could scale with range.

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(NSW)Evilpricetag

(NSW)Evilpricetag

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Ash is the best old boss killer. Vay Hek, Sargus Ruck, Raptor. Strip armor, if an ally can't do the rest, status secondary, glaive power throw. 

He's actually my go to frame. And the reason I'm afraid of melee 3.0 because his clones get beffier with melee combo multiplier. Use Naramon. 

 Good build to go off of, I don't care for Vitality, I the Smokescreen augment usually to aid teammates. 

Plains was a blast with him. Not even Ghouls touched me. The only real threat are toxic ancients. Be fast and nothing else matters. Although Saryn has become the biggest issue for teams.. Old Ember really doesn't look so bad anymore. 

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Torrempesta

Torrempesta

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5 minutes ago, Atsia said:

So you want to go back to the terrible days of Ash press 4 to win? No thanks.

So Ash can't and Mesa can?
Did you even read the first post?

 

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

Strip armor, if an ally can't do the rest, status secondary, glaive power throw.

Again: Nekros 2. If a frame is nerfed for no reason and EVERYTHING that he can do can be done better by any other... there is a problem.

Edited by Torrempesta
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(XBOX)Shodian

(XBOX)Shodian

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My Ash is a high priority target/boss killer. He's not meant to clear large groups of mobs fast. He's an assassin. Sneak in, kill tougher enemies, get out. Not saying you can't play him other ways but I feel like you might not be playing him correctly. Not every frame is or can be used the same way.

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Torrempesta

Torrempesta

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

My Ash is a high priority target/boss killer. He's not meant to clear large groups of mobs fast. He's an assassin. Sneak in, kill tougher enemies, get out. Not saying you can't play him other ways but I feel like you might not be playing him correctly. Not every frame is or can be used the same way.

How many times have you killed bosses? How many times do you NEED to do so?
And also: Valkyr... Valkyr is better in any way for killing bosses! Atlas even more! 
Look, my point is not focused on "how much you can have fun with a frame", because that is subjective!
You could notice a specific word I used a lot of times before: efficiently.
Ash is not efficient.
Of course you can do ANYTHING with him... but how good can you do it?
His 1 deals a lot of damages > there is Atlas for that.
His 2 grants invisibility > Loki and Ivara are better for that.
His 3 grants good mobility/insta kill > all frames have good mobility and Nova, Loki and even that damn pidgeon can move freely (also Titania)/combo multiplier and stuns are common for everyone.
His 4 deals tons of damages > Again: Mesa, Banshee, Saryn, Excalibur etc etc...

Again: if you all are having fun with him fine. FINE! Really, I am happy that you can play him and enjoy him... But statistics are on my side. There are objectively a bunch of frames who are not used at all or only in Solo (and some here confirmed). Warframe is not a Solo game, is a Co.op game.

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(XBOX)Shodian

(XBOX)Shodian

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1 minute ago, Torrempesta said:

How many times have you killed bosses? How many times do you NEED to do so?

I help many new Tenno clear the star chart, I fight bosses constantly.

 

2 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Ash is not efficient.
Of course you can do ANYTHING with him... but how good can you do it?

Really well actually. Like I said, your play style that you are going for doesn't work with Ash. Doesn't mean he's not efficient. Every Warframe has strengths and weaknesses. 

 

4 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

But statistics are on my side.

All I've seen are opinions. Statistics usually requires numbers. But as I've said, Ash is a unique frame, he has strengths and weaknesses, no frame has to be the best at everything.

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(XBOX)SweatyPick3L

(XBOX)SweatyPick3L

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1 hour ago, Torrempesta said:

So Ash can't and Mesa can?

So you want Ash's 4 to get nerfed? 

200% Power Strength is plenty to kill any enemies through sortie 3 efficiently, faster than any Mesa,  especially with a little bit of a combo multiplier.  And his 3 is for high priority targeting. 

I can give you a build (229 power Strength) that is efficient at killing stuff fast , like level 125 heavies with no combo multiplier. But bottom line is, Ash is a play style. Like Baruuk. Sure there are always better ways to kill stuff. But its all still a play style choice. 

 

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82
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RX-3DR

RX-3DR

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41 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Warframe is not a Solo game, is a Co.op game.

As you advocate for systems that completely spoils the team dynamic by allowing a single frame to clear groups of enemies instantly and without any effort.

Your problem seems to stem from other frames being broken rather than Ash being ineffective(X is broken in this context, therefore, Ash needs to be equally broken). Why make Ash as problematic as the meta is to co-op play rather than fix the game to require cooperation beyond beyond freezing the entire map. 

Edited by RX-3DR
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(NSW)Evilpricetag

(NSW)Evilpricetag

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59 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Again: Nekros 3. If a frame is nerfed for no reason and EVERYTHING that he can do can be done better by any other... there is a problem.

Oh forgot to mention I run Sahasa Kubro with Arcane Trickery. When Kubro or clones does a finisher it can trigger the invisibility. Always invisible and now you can go in nullifying bubbles. 

No other frame can strip 100% of armor (temporarily or otherwise) regardless if the ability deals proper damage. 

Nekros armor stripping doesn't appear to scale, but you can recast it 4 more times to overlap the debuff I guess. 

His passive is also great for one of the most favorite damage types. 

He's just.. Great to equipping and do anything. No frame swapping for specific things except for the current "endgames" Unfortunately. 

Just like Oberon he does a lot of things others do very well, maybe not the best, but very good in a package...  Sigh but Oberon does have a spot on the meta atm. 

 

Maybe you are/aren't aware of the factors that apply to his 4? Outside factors can buff theirs speed like arcanes, they are physically there and provide CC as the enemies will now target these unkillable clones, they easily one shot 150+.

Again smokescreen augment is a great team utility, other frames are powerful, but those players appreciate not getting targeted (as much, noisy weapons). 

I wouldn't mind a little buff, but not his old 4. 

I'd like to see a more... Ninja approach

when your health reaches zero Ash blows up in smoke (invisibility) and 2 clones spawn attacking hostiles briefly. W/e cool down. 

Just an idea. But most of his power does come from melee and his passive. 

He may need a more heavy rework for melee 3.0 if he doesn't scale well. 

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DerGreif2

DerGreif2

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3 minutes ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

How does she fair vs Sargus/Vay Hek bow only? 

I didn't think she hit the target points well with her exaulted. 

Except for the fact that you you rely one ONE RANDOM scenario: Yes you can target vay hek  and you are right: not sargus. But for ALL OTHER bosses (-lephantis I think. Did not used her vs him yet): Mesa for the win. So you would say that Ashe is good in or or two bossfights? So that is pretty weak :3

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Mr.Fluffins

Mr.Fluffins

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I really like Ash for solo play. His 4 looks freaking awesome. Also, fatal teleport + dagger with covert lethality, and you can oneshot almost anyone and anything.

He is a really cool frame. Just because there are other frames that clear rooms faster than he does, doesn't invalidate him.

There are a lot of weapons and abilities in this game that, while not being best of the best, are really fun to use and play with. I suggest you to try the fun approach, not the max power speed clear meat approach to the game.

 

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