All Endless missions discussion (Ideas to stay longer)

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

46 minutes ago, so_many_watermelons said:

It's not really being treated special, it's just getting a worthwhile amount of reward for playing longer and against such an infinitely scaling difficulty. I can't see how that's so terrible. Not everybody cares about bragging rights on the crappy leaderboards nobody really checks ingame. People who don't play so long will get the same amount they usually get for the same effort, while people who want to put in the considerably larger investment of time and effort can get an amount of in their reward. Sounds like a decent trade off to me, since while you're putting a lot of effort into playing at such high levels for maybe 20% extra of a resource per drop, someone else could be coasting by in a much easier game by extracting and starting over. Easy game, good rewards. Harder game, somewhat better rewards.

Nobody's getting alienated but those who want to feel like they are. When in reality, they can either try to follow suit and play longer/at higher levels, or not and simply not worry about being challenged, because they don't have to be.

I'm saying this with the good idea in mind that we should be able to select the difficulty/starting enemy levels when jumping into endless missions, because I still don't like the idea of having to play for long periods of time to reach levels I find actually challenging and engaging.

Scaling armor and shields does not equal scaling difficulty.  There are so many options to bypass both it's actually disturbing.  And all the while the masses just lumber forward with no regard for their own safety.  That is not challenge.

You keep mentioning higher difficulty equals higher rewards when the difficulty is not higher, enemies just take longer to chew through.  Not everyone wants to or in most cases can spend an unreasonable amount of time in a run and you're pretty much saying "too bad, so sad."

Just because you consciously choose to stay in a mission where the parameters are preset for rewards, does not mean you should get something additional for that choice.  The key word is choice.  In a new game mode, sure.  Telling players to stay longer or else is not helping your case.

That is literally alienating players.  

[so_many_watermelons]

5 hours ago, (XB1)xJdKxZomBiE said:

You and others like you always seem to forget this thing called Balance.

Unless this game had dedicated servers to mitigate the myriad of connection issues that plague this game STILL, staying in any mission past 20 minutes is simply not worth it, even if the drop tables get better the longer you go.

DE has already stated they don't want people playing like that.

That's a fantastic and valid point, but that has absolutely nothing to do with balance. Or maybe you decided to throw out the word balance without further explaining, and then went on to make an actual point about connection issues.

You're also not reading the part where I said I'd like difficulty/enemy starting level to be selectable, so that you don't have to stay for so long before the game picks up. You and others like you should learn to read better, it's a valuable skill. And I don't know who you're grouping me up with, you don't know me at all. I'm not exactly a huge proponent of fighting infinite scaling crap for hours; that is not my idea of fun, because it does get very boring. But I very much sympathize with the OP's perspective, and I very well understand ( likely more than you ) the complexities added to the situation when you bring up things like balance in both game difficulty and loot/rewards.

This discussion has been a pretty general thing, it's all stuff to discuss. Fascinating concept, I know, but trying to throw out a person's point because you want to group them into I assume some sort of elitist point of view is not the way to discuss. I never talked about playing for great amounts of time. I explicitly made a point talking about that. 

Solid reminder though, "DE has already stated they don't want people playing like that." That is true to an extent. They don't want that to be the common place or outright require method of playing. They don't want anyone to feel like it's like that. And that whole point puts a damper on the possible discussion here, yeah, but at the same time, so what? It's nice to discuss possibilities. They also like that some players are willing to do that, and they're also open to exploring possibilities to increase difficulty or let the players choose it for themselves, if you watched I think two devstreams ago. Which is why at least I've been saying what I've been saying.

Edited February 14, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[so_many_watermelons]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Scaling armor and shields does not equal scaling difficulty.  There are so many options to bypass both it's actually disturbing.  And all the while the masses just lumber forward with no regard for their own safety.  That is not challenge.

You keep mentioning higher difficulty equals higher rewards when the difficulty is not higher, enemies just take longer to chew through.  Not everyone wants to or in most cases can spend an unreasonable amount of time in a run and you're pretty much saying "too bad, so sad."

Just because you consciously choose to stay in a mission where the parameters are preset for rewards, does not mean you should get something additional for that choice.  The key word is choice.  In a new game mode, sure.  Telling players to stay longer or else is not helping your case.

That is literally alienating players.  

I feel like you especially should work on your reading skills. I don't remember ever saying anything close to "too bad, so sad", "stay longer or else", or "spend an unreasonable amount of time in a run". I feel like you're getting aggressive for absolutely no reason, as I've given you no ammunition for any of that. You're getting hostile due to a situation you've thought up in your head where I'm some sort of elitist who tells people who don't enjoy going 40+ rotations per session to #*!% off, or something. I'm not like that at all, I spend enough time helping new players as it is to act like that.

You've made a good point, I agree that scaling armor and shields does not exactly equal scaling difficulty. Not in this game where power creep can get so generous that we can end up surpassing their own infinite scalability for the most part. I personally like the idea of higher damage enemies, though not a stupid overwhelming amount of crap like unavoidable AoEs or knockdown that can only be circumvented with niche set ups. Secondary forms of difficulty could also be implemented, things we're not quite in control of with our damage output or tankiness. Somewhat of a vague thing I'm conceptualizing, I know. I'd reference Trials, but those may not be the best examples either, connection bugs notwithstanding. So far, no fully fleshed out thoughts to give right now, maybe further if the thread stays constructive enough for me to want to return.

Anyways, I explicitly mentioned how I don't like super long runs being the only real way to get difficult. So have fun trying to pin that one on me.

You say things like should or shouldn't when it comes to rewards for playing into difficulty ( for the time being, let's just avoid the difficulty argument as that's an entire monster to chew threw in a game as messy as Warframe ) like you're automatically right. There's already a thing ingame that works against your point here, the endless Fissure missions. to give you a good example of nice scaling rewards. And they're very optional. I don't ever feel like I'm missing out on a huge amount because I'm not farming that Meso blah blah for hours. It's just additional stuff to help out, but not necessary. If I want to invest my time boring myself to death for some extra rewards, I can. And if I don't want to, I won't. I get the relics I wanted cracked open and a handful of Traces. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting that for missions like Kuva extracts and excavations. Please do make a counterpoint to that without trying to paint me as something I'm not, nor showing myself to be here in my posts.

As I said in my post above, there absolutely is a discussion to be made about how much more reward, or if it should even be more of the desired reward, but instead extra stuff similar to the boosters and pre-refined Relics from Fissure missions.

Edited February 14, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

4 hours ago, so_many_watermelons said:

I feel like you especially should work on your reading skills. I don't remember ever saying anything close to "too bad, so sad", "stay longer or else", or "spend an unreasonable amount of time in a run". I feel like you're getting aggressive for absolutely no reason, as I've given you no ammunition for any of that. You're getting hostile due to a situation you've thought up in your head where I'm some sort of elitist who tells people who don't enjoy going 40+ rotations per session to #*!% off, or something. I'm not like that at all, I spend enough time helping new players as it is to act like that.

You've made a good point, I agree that scaling armor and shields does not exactly equal scaling difficulty. Not in this game where power creep can get so generous that we can end up surpassing their own infinite scalability for the most part. I personally like the idea of higher damage enemies, though not a stupid overwhelming amount of crap like unavoidable AoEs or knockdown that can only be circumvented with niche set ups. Secondary forms of difficulty could also be implemented, things we're not quite in control of with our damage output or tankiness. Somewhat of a vague thing I'm conceptualizing, I know. I'd reference Trials, but those may not be the best examples either, connection bugs notwithstanding. So far, no fully fleshed out thoughts to give right now, maybe further if the thread stays constructive enough for me to want to return.

Anyways, I explicitly mentioned how I don't like super long runs being the only real way to get difficult. So have fun trying to pin that one on me.

You say things like should or shouldn't when it comes to rewards for playing into difficulty ( for the time being, let's just avoid the difficulty argument as that's an entire monster to chew threw in a game as messy as Warframe ) like you're automatically right. There's already a thing ingame that works against your point here, the endless Fissure missions. to give you a good example of nice scaling rewards. And they're very optional. I don't ever feel like I'm missing out on a huge amount because I'm not farming that Meso blah blah for hours. It's just additional stuff to help out, but not necessary. If I want to invest my time boring myself to death for some extra rewards, I can. And if I don't want to, I won't. I get the relics I wanted cracked open and a handful of Traces. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting that for missions like Kuva extracts and excavations. Please do make a counterpoint to that without trying to paint me as something I'm not, nor showing myself to be here in my posts.

As I said in my post above, there absolutely is a discussion to be made about how much more reward, or if it should even be more of the desired reward, but instead extra stuff similar to the boosters and pre-refined Relics from Fissure missions.

If you seriously believe that post was hostile, then you can't honestly mention reading comprehension.  Disagreeing with someone does not equate to an aggressive tone, if anything you are coming off as being defensive when there is no need to be.

This same case has been made before and discarded not just by players, but by DE themselves for not just the reasons I've listed, but others here as well.  

 

Remember, there are bound to be opposing sides to your ideas.  If this is how you respond to posts that sit opposite to your point of view, you have my sympathies, particularly when it comes to an outdated argument.

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

While kuva junkies no doubt love this idea, you've gotta at least appreciate that scaling rewards are a form of exploitation.

Read up on video game addiction and start having some appreciation for DE not implementing these things. Please.

[so_many_watermelons]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

If you seriously believe that post was hostile, then you can't honestly mention reading comprehension.  Disagreeing with someone does not equate to an aggressive tone, if anything you are coming off as being defensive when there is no need to be.

This same case has been made before and discarded not just by players, but by DE themselves for not just the reasons I've listed, but others here as well.  

 

Remember, there are bound to be opposing sides to your ideas.  If this is how you respond to posts that sit opposite to your point of view, you have my sympathies, particularly when it comes to an outdated argument.

 

13 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Not everyone wants to or in most cases can spend an unreasonable amount of time in a run and you're pretty much saying "too bad, so sad."

Just because you consciously choose to stay in a mission where the parameters are preset for rewards, does not mean you should get something additional for that choice.  .... Telling players to stay longer or else is not helping your case.

That is literally alienating players.  

You are nothing but hostile and trying to put words in my mouth, trying to read an attitude off of me that simply wasn't there when I posted. You're telling me equating my post to "too bad so sad" isn't hostile? Or calling my simple and very open to discussion posting "literally alienating players"?

The entire final paragraph you write is not for me, it is perfect advice for you. If that's how you respond to opposing ideas, you have my sympathy. Because I'm not trying to put down anyone for disagreeing with me or for not liking ridiculously long play sessions/infinite tankiness as a form of enemy difficulty. You are the one reading my posts and pulling that from it.

My snark comes from you and the other one's passive aggression towards me, which can frankly piss right off. I pointed out your legitimate/constructive criticisms and points, and praised you for them. I was not being snarky in any way whenever I said "Good point on X", that was genuine. But if you read all that and think "Hm, this guy is being a snarky ass", then that's your prerogative, but I'm sorry you're like that.

Edited February 14, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Oi, just another Topic about: It must be greatly rewarded to become worth to stay longer, XP and resources are overlooked, again.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2019-02-11 at 6:48 PM, (XB1)RPColten said:

The point of 'endless missions' is to be a mission that does not have a definite end state as Captures or Exterminates do. They are not necessarily supposed to be 'endless' but rather 'open-ended', where there is an ending but that 'ending' may change from squad to squad. It is there, you are supposed to leave, but that moment shifts around. There is a subtle difference. Secondly, the downfall of not receiving extra rewards for going past the soft cap is by design. They are meant to slowly push players out when they exceed the soft cap (Rotation C), hence extreme enemy scaling and no reward bonuses for staying past your metaphorical bed-time. You're not intended to go past this pseudo-barrier time and time again.

The Devs don't want to promote endurance game-play that has an incentive on staying well past the soft-cap barrier, whether that is wave 20, minute 20, round 4-5 or 10 extractors. It's why they've been very apprehensive on tacking on scaling rewards. Every time the topic has come up in a Devstream, the main reply has been something along the lines of "We don't want to promote hour long missions. We want players to be able to hop in and out of missions in small chunks, rather than feel they are shoe-horned into these long endurance missions." Paraphrasing obviously.

----

As far as pushing players to extend their game-play and test their limits, that is why Sorties, Arbitrations, and Kuva Floods exist. It's why high-level Bounties exist. It's why the Index and Rathuum exist with high-level options. It's why Elite Sanctuary Onslaught Exists. The Arbitrations are the only ones that demand a certain time commitment that pushes past the norm, though this commitment falls short of an hour typically and there is a gap between these alerts. These missions all also come with extra rewards as an incentive.

You don't need long taxing endurance missions to promote intensive game-play.

 

In addition to everything you said I think "scaling kuva" is pretty high on the list of things that won't happen. The only thing "sorta keeping rivens in check is the RNG you have to fight through to get a good roll. Increasing rate at which kuva can be farmed would amount to a significant riven buff, as in for all of them.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

3 hours ago, so_many_watermelons said:

 

You are nothing but hostile and trying to put words in my mouth, trying to read an attitude off of me that simply wasn't there when I posted. You're telling me equating my post to "too bad so sad" isn't hostile? Or calling my simple and very open to discussion posting "literally alienating players"?

The entire final paragraph you write is not for me, it is perfect advice for you. If that's how you respond to opposing ideas, you have my sympathy. Because I'm not trying to put down anyone for disagreeing with me or for not liking ridiculously long play sessions/infinite tankiness as a form of enemy difficulty. You are the one reading my posts and pulling that from it.

My snark comes from you and the other one's passive aggression towards me, which can frankly piss right off. I pointed out your legitimate/constructive criticisms and points, and praised you for them. I was not being snarky in any way whenever I said "Good point on X", that was genuine. But if you read all that and think "Hm, this guy is being a snarky ass", then that's your prerogative, but I'm sorry you're like that.

I see.  You're one of those players.  Go right ahead then, see how far you get with that line of thought.  I'd look up hostility and aggression in your spare time though.  Maybe next time you won't be so triggered due to misreading someone's response.

 

Good luck.

[jan_Pike]

Love these ideas, since I play only endless missions, but honestly? Overall, this should really just be saved for one difficult zone, if not just applied to Arbitrations or Nightmare Missions.

Then again, all I need in order to be a happy camper is to have infinite fissures in the void, particularly Survival.

However, maybe these could be applied to the Sentient System. Put this in fan concepts, i dont know.

 

[so_many_watermelons]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

I see.  >>>>>>>>>You're one of those players. <<<<<<<<< Go right ahead then, see how far you get with that line of thought.  I'd look up hostility and aggression in your spare time though.  Maybe next time you won't be so triggered due to misreading someone's response.

 

Good luck.

Amazing. The utter lack of self awareness. Not even going to grace that with any more of a response.

Edited February 14, 2019 by so_many_watermelons

[Klypto]

Would rather they did both scaling rewards and the ability to start at a harder level.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

On ‎2019‎-‎02‎-‎13 at 9:05 AM, DreisterDino said:

If you just continue to play like you always do when scaling rewards would exist, you

• get just as much rewards as if scaling rewards wouldnt be a thing
• even get a little more because scaling would start already pretty early in the game

 

How can someone make this into

• not rewarded properly
• Punishment

 

If you stay a little longer, you get rewarded - if not you get as much as always - how the hell can someone describe that as punishment?

Sry, proof me wrong but for me the only reason is: Others get more than i do - and i dont like that although it doesnt even affect me.

Honestly, I really don't care if I change your mind or not. Anyone who says: "Change my mind." has already made up their mind & nothing said or proved will ever change it.
I can play that game:
"Fire is wet. Change my mind."
Seriously? Can you make my believe that Fire is not wet if I have decided that my mind is made up on it? No you can't. Fire is now wet. I don't care what you say or use as proof.

I will however go into more detail on my viewpoint however.

Essentially, the bulk of the playerbase will feel that they must stay for longer periods of time to get good rewards. Period.
No matter how you spin it, players will feel forced to stay longer.
This thread is basically a round about way of trying to find ways to "force" players to stay longer in missions.
IE: It's the usual Endurance community trying to bend others to their playstyle.

I say "force" because I know folks will say: "No one is forcing anyone to do anything. They can leave early if they want."
But the bottomline is that if the loot is that much better by staying later then they will feel forced to stay because everyone wants to get the best reward that they can get.

Right now,
The majority of the playerbase IS happy with things as they are (note that us on the forums are a small/minor portion of the community), DE has designed the game to function in this manner, & most players enjoy the way its been designed.
Scaling rewards in the manner that the OP & a few others have suggested will be PERCHIEVED as penalizing players for leaving in what an Endurance player considers to be too early.

No matter how many crazy theories, methods, rewordings, etc are posted.
In the end, if (for the sake of discussion) DE was to implement this. People would start posting about how they dislike having to stay __ of time to get anything worthwhile.
Posts would start saying that the reward for staying shorter durations need to be brought up/buffed up because its absurd to have no option but to endure a long/boring mission for more than ___ amount of time.
Once that gets buffed, then we'll back to this very same discussion.

This has already happened in the past.
IE: Void Keys/Towers changed to Relics & Fissure missions.

Time in a mission is subjective. Period. No discussion there.
1 person may feel a 15 minute mission is very long, while others (obviously) feel that is "bite-sized".
1 person may feel that 1 hour is "bite sized", while others view that as insane.
Some consider 2hrs to be a quick run, while others consider 5hrs to be moderate/average. (It's insanity...)

Rewarding time invested is also subjective. It's a never ending debate.
Already in this thread you have folks saying that those who stay longer are being greedy because they want the game to shower them with rewards knowing that others won't stay that long, giving them an edge in ___ content.
We also have people saying that those who like the current system are being greedy because they don't want others to be able to acquire more than them.

Believe it or not I understand the OPs & other's viewpoint that if they stay in a mission longer that they should get "more for doing so".

But DE either has to be stingy with the scaling increase (The OP's system is far too generous) otherwise it risks creating a false mindset/narrative that players MUST stay longer to get good rewards.
That narrative will then become the "truth" via mob mentality.
Following that is the false perception that Warframe is now catered to Endurance runners, and requires massive time investments to progress in.
(Destiny 2 is somewhat having this issue now.)

While many vets say: "That's not true." it's how the majority will start to see it, it's what the forums, reddit, and other outlets will be filled to the brim with discussions on.
As we've all already seen in this game, once a narrative is established it's insanely hard to disprove if not impossible to kill.
A prime example is Limbo & the false narrative that is tied to him & "Freebie Frames".
Limbo is STILL hated & seen as a Troll frame & players still leave at the sight of him.
Grinding Free Frames (Harrow, Nidus, Khora, etc) has the false narrative that DE has rigged the drop rates so be so unlikely that buying them with platinum is the best option/only option.

So no good really comes from this. In the long run it'll create a toxic mindset as time runs its course. As players tend to take a public perception "be it true or false" as gospel in time.
(IE: Most newbies hate Limbo and the majority of them have never even grouped with one.)

[DreisterDino]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Zero_029:

Essentially, the bulk of the playerbase will feel that they must stay for longer periods of time to get good rewards. Period.

So you asked them all?

Why is noone complainining about the boosters for fissure missions right now?

you have to play or an hour or more to get them all to 100%.

Wy is noone complaining about having to go through 15 rotations to get a bonus radiant relic?

 

Because no one feels forced to play longer to get more rewards.

And btw, you wrote "good rewards"..that makes it sound like OP was asking for exclusive stuff you only get when you stay longer,

but he suggested things like 50 kuva more per extractor or 2.5 cryotic more per extractor.

 

Edit: i would accept the statement that players would feel forced to stay long when there are exclusive things that you cant get in any other way.........

WAIT A SECOND....I was forced to play the index for an hour to get an exclusive item....where are all the people complaining about that?

Seriously though...if "important" stuff like mods would be locked behind playing for hours, yes i can see the outrage...but noone is asking for s.th. like that.

Edited February 15, 2019 by DreisterDino

[(XBOX)x ARTaco x]

it would cut more of the grind out for new players that are being carried by mid to high lvl players so i don't think the devs will do anything you suggested in the op. wf is set up so you pay by grinding or pay with dollars, euros, etc. to bypass the grind.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2019-02-12 at 8:40 AM, RItzBitz13 said:

Endless missions have a lot of potential to add a new layer of challenges to extend your stay for longer than a single rotation

You also gotta account for another reason people don't stay longer than a cycle or two: endless modes are the best for grinding resources and Exp due to their enemy density, and players will leave a mission once they have what they came for (2 Argon Crystals or a weapon brought to Max Rank, for example). To filter some players out of the "leave after a cycle" crowd, we need missions that can reward a bunch of exp/resources/whatever that aren't endless.

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

You also gotta account for another reason people don't stay longer than a cycle or two: endless modes are the best for grinding resources and Exp due to their enemy density, and players will leave a mission once they have what they came for (2 Argon Crystals or a weapon brought to Max Rank, for example). To filter some players out of the "leave after a cycle" crowd, we need missions that can reward a bunch of exp/resources/whatever that aren't endless.

Good point. Some players simply don't have the time (or inclination) to do endless missions and purposely look for missions that they can do in 20-30 minutes max (or even 10-15 in some cases).