Rivens, next to mod packs, are probably the closest thing this game has to loot boxes.

[FlusteredFerret]

10 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

WTH are you talking about? Isn't predatory? Most of people turn into a vampire when they try to sell rivens... Multi accounts, ask friends to speak on other chats and sites like Semlar or Riven market are bibles for them!  Negotiation is an insult for them because on riven market it's written 10000 plat and asking everything less make you a scammer and a cheater! 

Yeah - its the traders that effectively turn them into loot boxes. Thats not the game's fault - thats the trading process. The game allows you to earn them and mod them for free.

If people weren't in such a rush to get hold of the "perfect" mods for their weapons, in order to enjoy massively OP status, this wouldn't be a problem. Players only got themselves to blame by creating the demand in the first place.

 

This is very different from games that entice you to buy loot boxes for real money, on the chance of getting a special toy.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[Softballbryan]

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I cant pay bills nor for food with oil or diamonds either. Actually even ability to pay for bills and food with money depends on the currency, thus not being able to pay for it with plat is of as little importance for the argument as one cant pay using japanese yens, norwegian krones or croatian kunas in germany or the UK.

 

5 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

I cant pay bills nor for food with oil or diamonds either. Actually even ability to pay for bills and food with money depends on the currency, thus not being able to pay for it with plat is of as little importance for the argument as one cant pay using japanese yens, norwegian krones or croatian kunas in germany or the UK.

Yes you can pay for food with diamonds and all kinds of other stuff.. you’ve just never tried hard enough. You may be able to with plat, but your odds are much better with diamonds. 

[Softballbryan]

People create this market as well. I’ve got a handful of Rivens since I started in August and rolling them a little here and there has given me some very good Rivens. I have no idea, nor do I care one bit, about the riven market. It’s a created out of thin air and I’m under no obligation to worry with it. Rivens are great just don’t worry about the dang market for them. 

[TeddyTalker]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No, because you don't spend money to open a "box" that may on may not contain a rare digital item you want.

They're nothing alike. Or are we going to call anything with RNG a "lootbox"? 

Considering rivens are functionally exactly like opening a box that may or may not contain a rare digital item you want "Will this primary weapon riven be a rubico, or another trash hind", I think you are way off the mark here. The amount of hype that get played around rivens because of the riven market makes it akin to the new shiny thingy that attract people to it, and considering rivens can drastically change the functioning of a weapon, It is not a wrong comparison.

[TeddyTalker]

So far I am happy with the discussion that has taken place in this topic. It has been pretty insightful and very civil, and I enjoy the discussion so far.

[Soulden]

6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No, because you don't spend money to open a "box" that may on may not contain a rare digital item you want.

They're nothing alike. Or are we going to call anything with RNG a "lootbox"? 

Yes and no.

You can spend your life at it to get the perfect one (and thats where difference ends), or buy it off. Pretty close to buying accounts with non tradeables, you can play the game, or skip and shop for it.
Either way, DE wins, we lose. Either way, their mistake as well.

I'm just glad pvp is not real, otherwise people would really have an argument.

[TheGrimCorsair]

10 hours ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

I have been farming Kuva and gotten some rolls worth anywhere from 300 to 1k plat,  and I cannot help but feel that this system was almost designed to keep playing plugging in Kuva until they eventually get the thing they want. There just a really addictive quality to it because of what it gives. 

The amount of power creep in these things is enough to buff weapons from obscurity to gram prime level of OP, and with a negative IPS  modifier,  can turn some weapons into effective shredders of armor, gas spreaders, etc. I think the pull is enough to get players to invest that little bit extra platinum,  or grind out a few more days bringing up the player count.  

 

And I don't feel it is really good for the health of the game as a whole,  since we wind up with a predatory riven market where novice players open up their lotus gift plague and get robbed.  But that just my take.  I just wanted to share what I think about it. 

Yep.

[SneakyErvin]

How is it even close to lootboxes? You cant buy rivens or kuva for platinum or real cash.

Or are you saying that Kanai's Cube in D3 is also a lootbox?

Even mod packs and relics are stretching the meaning of lootboxes since both of them drop in abundance within the game doing regular stuff. Lootboxes tend to be cash only or extremely limited (like in Overwatch) in order to bring in revenue. I doubt neither mod packs or relics bring in any noticable amount of revenue.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How is it even close to lootboxes? You cant buy rivens or kuva for platinum or real cash.

Or are you saying that Kanai's Cube in D3 is also a lootbox?

Even mod packs and relics are stretching the meaning of lootboxes since both of them drop in abundance within the game doing regular stuff. Lootboxes tend to be cash only or extremely limited (like in Overwatch) in order to bring in revenue. I doubt neither mod packs or relics bring in any noticable amount of revenue.

It's a stretch by any definition. 

You may as well call crits on a weapon "loot boxes" too by this stretched definition. 

In an arpg there will always be RNG, it's a staple of the genre. To try and make RNG out to be a boogie man is ridiculous. 

[spirit_of_76]

14 hours ago, Sir_Carl said:

I once had a Zaw Plague riven which is pretty rare which couldve easily sold 500p (if i have it now). But I had it when I was a player new to warframe trading and some doofus offered me 75p and ofcourse that was a big amount for me at the time. Looking back, I feel robbed.

Rivens might be compared to lootboxes, it isn't just as straightforward. In fact, it is a very tricky subject.

this is what https://semlar.com/rivenprices is for but he has been out of commission for a bit due too some tool.  hopefully it comes back online

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, bibmobello said:

WTH are you talking about? Isn't predatory? Most of people turn into a vampire when they try to sell rivens..

The game isn't predatory. Players will turn into right thieves and scumbags, though.

[TeddyTalker]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

How is it even close to lootboxes? You cant buy rivens or kuva for platinum or real cash.

 

I would address the rest of your post,  but this part is wrong so it just shows me you jumped the gun and did not think your response  through. You can buy rivens with platinum, and they are the most expensive thing in warframe and have the most meaningful effect on gameplay you can get. While it all just over kill for any weapons, they are still something that affect the game economy in a negative way. 

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

I would address the rest of your post,  but this part is wrong so it just shows me you jumped the gun and did not think your response  through. You can buy rivens with platinum, and they are the most expensive thing in warframe and have the most meaningful effect on gameplay you can get. While it all just over kill for any weapons, they are still something that affect the game economy in a negative way. 

You cant buy them directly from DE, you need to buy them from players, you need to buy the ones that have dropped.

They also dont have the most meaningful effect on gameplay either unless you run with an otherwise underperfoming weapon or one that is out of balance with the dispo i.e Gram and Tiberon Prime. Weaker weapons are simply brought up to par with others.

You are also forgetting the point that player to player trading sees no direct profit for DE, unlike lootboxes in games. Plat here is just our in game currency which can also be bought, but it is very easy to just ride the plat market with little investment yourself, without ever selling a riven.

So no they arent even in the same ballpark as lootboxes, they are regular arpg loot with variable numbers, things most arpgs have in every single equipment slot.

What is next, you're gonna claim the game is P2W aswell?

edit: Also, no one is forcing anyone to buy them, you can get pretty much all the wanted rivens by simply playing the game regularly. I've gotten rivens for nearly every weapon that I want simply by doing sorties. If you are an instant gratification junkie you might see it as being forced to buy them, but for someone that plays to find the loot that will never be a thing. My friend bought a few rivens for the weapons he wanted, then he stopped playing shortly after because he lacked a good goal.

Edited March 6, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[TeddyTalker]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You cant buy them directly from DE, you need to buy them from players, you need to buy the ones that have dropped.

They also dont have the most meaningful effect on gameplay either unless you run with an otherwise underperfoming weapon or one that is out of balance with the dispo i.e Gram and Tiberon Prime. Weaker weapons are simply brought up to par with others.

You are also forgetting the point that player to player trading sees no direct profit for DE, unlike lootboxes in games. Plat here is just our in game currency which can also be bought, but it is very easy to just ride the plat market with little investment yourself, without ever selling a riven.

So no they arent even in the same ballpark as lootboxes, they are regular arpg loot with variable numbers, things most arpgs have in every single equipment slot.

What is next, you're gonna claim the game is P2W aswell?

edit: Also, no one is forcing anyone to buy them, you can get pretty much all the wanted rivens by simply playing the game regularly. I've gotten rivens for nearly every weapon that I want simply by doing sorties. If you are an instant gratification junkie you might see it as being forced to buy them, but for someone that plays to find the loot that will never be a thing. My friend bought a few rivens for the weapons he wanted, then he stopped playing shortly after because he lacked a good goal.

Did I ever made the statement the rivens are a direct 1:1 comparison to lootboxes? Another reading comprehension issue I see. 

1. You must have never heard of negative Impact, puncture, and slash rivens, which can drastically change the performance of weapons with consistent elemental procs. It is a significant gameplay changer, to the likes of 100% status shotguns. 

2. Do not see the point you are making here with the direct profit statement. This is unrelated to my statement.

3. Regular ARPG loot you cannot buy with the equivalent of real world money turned into a digital format. Nice try. I played plenty of Arpgs.

4. Since you can buy power with money, it can be described in technically pay to win terms, if you want to go that route.

All of these arguments are either borne of you arguing against a strawman argument you made in your head, or not reading what I stated correctly. Rivens are the closet thing to lootboxes as it is like chasing over an incredibly low chance, that causes many to just pay money to get the thing outright, and usually at a great expense. If you cannot see the comparisons, then you simply do not want to, and then you should stop wasting my time responding to me if you want to argue and not discuss.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (NSW)TeddyTalks said:

Did I ever made the statement the rivens are a direct 1:1 comparison to lootboxes? Another reading comprehension issue I see. 

1. You must have never heard of negative Impact, puncture, and slash rivens, which can drastically change the performance of weapons with consistent elemental procs. It is a significant gameplay changer, to the likes of 100% status shotguns. 

2. Do not see the point you are making here with the direct profit statement. This is unrelated to my statement.

3. Regular ARPG loot you cannot buy with the equivalent of real world money turned into a digital format. Nice try. I played plenty of Arpgs.

4. Since you can buy power with money, it can be described in technically pay to win terms, if you want to go that route.

All of these arguments are either borne of you arguing against a strawman argument you made in your head, or not reading what I stated correctly. Rivens are the closet thing to lootboxes as it is like chasing over an incredibly low chance, that causes many to just pay money to get the thing outright, and usually at a great expense. If you cannot see the comparisons, then you simply do not want to, and then you should stop wasting my time responding to me if you want to argue and not discuss.

If you basically want discussions with only people who agree with you then dont post on a public forum.

You are only bringing up opinions, I dont agree with those opinions and you get borderline hostile. You may see the rivens as lootbox territory, I and many others dont. And no platinum isnt the equivelent of real world money, this isnt like it is or was in some games where you can actually re-trade the plat back into real currency. Plat is the foundation of WF trading, it is there in everything, it doesnt make rivens a special case. It isnt like buying things straight up because the plat doesnt disappear because player A buys a riven with plat he spent real money on, that plat goes to player B which he traded with, which later on changes hands to player C etc. etc. and so on.

Also P2W only comes into effect when you can obtain an item through real world money that cannot be obtained in-game. Like it is in some asian games where you buy the item straight from the company and it is the only place to get it. Not only that but this is a pure PvE game.

And when people buy a wanted Riven straight up it is even further from a lootbox system, because you buy the exact item you want, not some RNG where there are 15 other items competing for that spot.

[DrBorris]

I dunno, they feel more like slot machines to me. With loot boxes you only need one good thing for them to be worthwhile, with Rivens you need to get lucky multiple times per pull of the lever.

Edit: Also, with loot boxes, you always get something. It might not be good, but you got some value. With Rivens you can loose value when you pull the lever.

 

And I still don't understand how people who are okay with Rivens lack any empathy to understand that some people don't like slot machines. Maybe I am crazy, but having a system as powerful as Rivens be tied to such a decisive format (slot machine) seems like a bad idea.

Edited March 6, 2019 by DrBorris

[FlusteredFerret]

10 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I dunno, they feel more like slot machines to me. With loot boxes you only need one good thing for them to be worthwhile, with Rivens you need to get lucky multiple times per pull of the lever.

Edit: Also, with loot boxes, you always get something. It might not be good, but you got some value. With Rivens you can loose value when you pull the lever.

 

And I still don't understand how people who are okay with Rivens lack any empathy to understand that some people don't like slot machines. Maybe I am crazy, but having a system as powerful as Rivens be tied to such a decisive format (slot machine) seems like a bad idea.

I think its because some people understand that rivens are meant to be this rare, special nice-to-have thing, which no matter how crazy OP their stats are, they aren't really game-breaking because, firstly, its a co-op / solo game and second, they are uncommon to extremely rare (or supposed to be anyway).

Last but not least, you are gambling with an easily farmable resource. You get a bad roll - just farm more kuva. Its not like you're losing actual money.

Its the fact that some (a significant minority even) players seem to treat them as must-haves in order to make weapons worthwhile...either that or they have OCD and just simply have to collect EVERYTHING in the game. This idea that they are essential to have good gear and people's willingness to farm / buy large amounts of plat in order to obtain them, is what is creating the problem.

Edited March 6, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[DrBorris]

8 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I think its because some people understand that rivens are meant to be this rare, special nice-to-have thing, which no matter how crazy OP their stats are, they aren't really game-breaking because, firstly, its a co-op / solo game and second, they are uncommon to extremely rare (or supposed to be anyway).

Last but not least, you are gambling with an easily farmable resource. You get a bad roll - just farm more kuva. Its not like you're losing actual money.

Its the fact that some (a significant minority even) players seem to treat them as must-haves in order to make weapons worthwhile...either that or they have OCD and just simply have to collect EVERYTHING in the game. This idea that they are essential to have good gear and people's willingness to farm / buy large amounts of plat in order to obtain them, is what is creating the problem.

Rivens were intended to be an end-game customization system that breathed new life into underused weapons, instead it has turned into an elitist casino (apparently with a mafia to back it up). Rivens should be used by everyone, they should be enjoyed by everyone, the fact that we are having this conversation is proof to the failure of Rivens.

 

Can I get away with not using the Riven system? Yes, of course. But the goal of a game system, especially one that could have such a good impact on the meta of the game, should be to have a broad appeal, not a niche one.

Edited March 6, 2019 by DrBorris

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

Hmmm I don't remember buying Kuva or Rivens from DE ever

[rune_me]

On 2019-03-05 at 7:44 PM, FlusteredFerret said:

Yeah - its the traders that effectively turn them into loot boxes. Thats not the game's fault - thats the trading process. The game allows you to earn them and mod them for free.

If people weren't in such a rush to get hold of the "perfect" mods for their weapons, in order to enjoy massively OP status, this wouldn't be a problem. Players only got themselves to blame by creating the demand in the first place.

While I agree wholeheartedly that there are traders out there that more or less lives for ripping off new players, that's not really loot boxes. When you buy a riven in trade chat, you know exactly what you get. You don't get a random riven, you know the exact stats before you pay for it. That's no different from purchasing a new deluxe skin, or a prime blueprint.