Operation: Hostile Mergers Leaderboard Information

[--Q--ClawX7]

6 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Could you point the actual math involving weaknesses and resistances? Last time i checked demolysts (at least the satyr and moa) are weak against both, radiation (+25%) and electricity (+50%) making the damage get even higher with the smite + shock tropper combo.

What you're saying is correct assuming you don't fully strip shields using Shield Disruption + Coaction drift. The 35% is from the maximum health and not health + shield, so with shields, it will take dramatically more shots to take down the demolyst.

The 35% is divided 50/50 into impact and radiation and the 50% which is further divided on the amount of orbs. The elec buff adds on top and it is what is mainly responsible for the damage.

2/4 of the main demolysts are 25% resistance to impact and 2/4 are 50% weak to electricity 25% to radiation.

The Demolyst MOA has an ability to heal itself afterwards Oberon's smite can't target it, so effectively, mainly Demolyst Satyr benefits from the weaknesses.

Demolyts also have innate damage resistance that isn't documented in the wiki but it's roughly 50-60%

[----Legacy----]

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

Except the % conversion is directly proportional to the amount of orbs, which makes each orb fired weaker. I'd inform myself before stating something.

It doesn't make the whole interaction any less dumb since you can still use a quick cast cheap cost ability to easily deal insane amounts of damage. The amount of orbs is just besides the point given that, unless there's a cap for the minimum amount of orbs, one could probably use negative strenght to focus more damage in less orbs. The scaling part of the ability doesn't scale with strength and that's also the part making most of the job after all.

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

I'm not going to defend whether they kept it intended or as oversight, but this is a pretty moot point to leave.

That's exactly why some clarification from DE regarding that interaction would be much appreciated.

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

What defines a fair competition? What exactly tells you that this system is a exploit and not just knowledgeable players figuring out a new strat to make their runs more efficient? Nowhere in the mod it reads it applies only to weapons, and oversight or not DE did NOT specify it. Nowhere does it say you cannot enhance your allies "projectile ability" (I like to name them like this) with elemental augments.

That's exactly the reason, the interaction being used is in a grey area until DE says something about it.

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

And "let's wait so DE can do nothing about it"? Have you thought of the fact that a normal person can't exactly do a 17 hours run in a regular day, hence waited until Sunday for it?

It's more about the way the run was advertised than the time it took.

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

You are basically accusing others of abusing when it's a smart usage of abilities with extreme team work (in a cooperative game, who would've figured), assuming that x works y way and it can't work in any other way, when DE is not clear with their information.

Could you draw the line between "abuse" and "smart usage" without being biased while keeping in mind that some other stuff defended as "smart usage" has been deemed as "abuse" by DE?

35 minutes ago, Pandigueiro said:

And regarding participation bans, DE simply underestimated some of these players, and I think the lock they had set was fair enough (want to qualify again? Push yourself harder than you did before, but this time without exploits).

Yeah, they clearly underestimated their players and might even have overestimated their own game. Either way, the "this time without exploits" is, once again, in a grey area since they haven't said anything regarding the used interactions.

4 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Only DE can answer whether it's intended for certain warframe abilities to be buffed by weapon damage buffs or not. Oberon's smite, nova's antimatter drop, ash's shuriken, and a few other abilities as well all function like weapons for the purpose of the code and accepting weapon buffs. So they can receive buffs from stuff like vigorous swap, chroma's vex armor, arcane arachne, etc. I'm not an expert on these things, but maybe it has something to do with the abilities that manifest as actual physical projectiles in the game? 

Intended or not? Only DE can say. But even if that's NOT intended, the strat they used would still have worked by simply swapping Volt for a buff Rhino and dropping vigorous swap. It would take a few more casts of smite to kill the demo's, but it would have still worked fine.

That's exactly why i said "it seems unintended" and asked for clarification from DE about it in my first post here. If it's accepted by them, congrats to the players in question, otherwise it sucks but should have been kept in mind as a possible scenario.

 

[Bloop]

43 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Could you draw the line between "abuse" and "smart usage" without being biased while keeping in mind that some other stuff defended as "smart usage" has been deemed as "abuse" by DE?

It's an interesting question to say the least, but I'll try to answer it either way.

Could I remain unbiased to draw the line? From a personal standpoint, and to an extent, I definitely could. While keeping in mind some stuff was deemed as abuse by DE? Probably not as much.

To put an example, I defend that the Loki and riven cases were definitely an abuse, as logically it does not really make any sense for them to remain legitimate (even if some have been around for years, like the despawn case which is Loki's).

Could I defend that Oberon and Volt's combo is smart usage, along Vigorous Swap? As a player and given the lack of information I have (which is not my fault, I'm using the tools that were designed), I would say so (even without Vigorous Swap, the combo would remain effective, I don't think there's any doubt about this). Now, if I kept in mind that DE does not want scaling abilities to apply, I have a question instead of an answer: Why weren't all of them not banned from usage from the very beginning? I would think that programming the enemy to prevent all of them from applying would be much easier than just preventing some abilities instead. But outside of that, in my opinion, which attempts to remain as unbiased and out of morality as possible, I would say that at the very least the Shock Trooper + Smite combo is legitimate.

But frankly, it's hard to remain completely unbiased in a situation where lack of information and lack of a clear path is prevalent. Why? Because we could even conclude that elemental augments should never apply to abilities, but if this was nerfed we'd be looking at a YEARS OLD oversight, which would turn out to be funny to say the least.

[Caramello]

2 hours ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Heres both sides here, arguably both of them are wrong.

Because many of the tactics used in the initial runs weren't exploits and many players who got legitimate scores got set to zero which is wrong.

Yeah... no:

Being able to "cleanly identify" who used the exploits means that they have a pretty good grasp in identifying exploiters, and if your score got reset, is because you abused one of said exploits, or both, nobody got punished for playing fair.

[dreadley]

13 minutes ago, Caramello said:

Yeah... no:

Being able to "cleanly identify" who used the exploits means that they have a pretty good grasp in identifying exploiters, and if your score got reset, is because you abused one of said exploits, or both, nobody got punished for playing fair.

Is this extremely naive or just wishful thinking? Because they swung banhammer so wide it wiped 1/4 of the leaderboards and a lot of low profile runs with just invis lokis, second wave literally banned anyone that goes over wave 41.

Whether it was justified or not might be a debatable subject but their accuracy was so bad just looking at how they enveloped such a high percentage. 

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, Caramello said:

nobody got punished for playing fair.

I'm living proof that this is not the case. And i know what we've been doing.

Just because they trust the script and hope it goes clean doesn't mean it actually is 100% clean.

[----Legacy----]

4 hours ago, Pandigueiro said:

But frankly, it's hard to remain completely unbiased in a situation where lack of information and lack of a clear path is prevalent. Why? Because we could even conclude that elemental augments should never apply to abilities, but if this was nerfed we'd be looking at a YEARS OLD oversight, which would turn out to be funny to say the least.

Fair enough, i liked the whole answer but i'd like to focus on this paragraph mostly because i guess that we both (and most likely everyone else in this thread) know how comically long it can take for DE to go back into old content in order to update, rework or fix it. 

Other than that, i'm pretty sure that lack of information (aka "i didn't know it was wrong") has never been an acceptable answer when someone is caught in questionable actions.

3 hours ago, Caramello said:

nobody got punished for playing fair.

To be honest, it's possible for a squad of randoms to figure out they are doing fine and decide to go as far as possible with their current setups, so all it takes is one of them exploiting a bug and then the whole squad's score is wiped. They all got benefit from it after all.

Add there that depending of how the script is written, all it would have taken is a single loki in the squad to make the entire run count as an exploit even if they never used SwitchTP. After all DE has a history of giving both, undeserved punishes and prices with rheir scripts (like a friend who got a primed noggle despite never buying a prime access, which given the requirements set to obtain them is an undeserved price, for example)

[Bloop]

20 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Other than that, i'm pretty sure that lack of information (aka "i didn't know it was wrong") has never been an acceptable answer when someone is caught in questionable actions.

By lack of information I mean literal lack of information mod-wise. It's not a "I didn't know it was wrong" but more of a "Am I supposed to imply if this mod is supposed to work with x or not?", it's basically flipping a coin.

[ExaltedClara]

8 hours ago, --Q--Faye said:

It's against clan rules to disparage other players too, just so we all get along well with the community. You wouldn't want to leave your friends hanging either right so why must we? As to exploits, its a big clan, I don't personally know anyone who did any switch teleporting to kill mobs, or negative crit to kill things.

While I can understand your sentiment on wanting to speak up to defend the people you associate with, you'd have to be disingenuous to say that your clan members are abiding by the rules you mentioned. Your clan's discord channel #dojo is publicly open to anyone in the server and consistently produces incidents where members link controversial forum posts like these and then engage in wholly unconstructive denigration against people that they can't see eye to eye with. While you may think it's contained on the server, I've seen my fair share of excerpts from various connections (past and present Q members, guests) to know that such things do exist and that it's practically become a norm there. It would come as no surprise to me if plenty of people, however uninformed you might like to think they are, form their impressions of your clan based on such examples of trash talk.

You may not exemplify such behavior, but you can't deny that it doesn't exist within the clan and that it is a far cry from what you would regard as "respectful". Additionally, whether you like it or not, members in the clan who did indeed engage in the specific exploits you mentioned do exist and have given a bad name to your entire clan through association. The onus is on your leadership to manage your clan's reputation, not the public.

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm living proof that this is not the case. And i know what we've been doing.

Just because they trust the script and hope it goes clean doesn't mean it actually is 100% clean.

The fact remains that plenty of scores from Q and Q Storm members got wiped during the duration of this event leading to drastic decline in leaderboard scores mid-event. We can debate until the cows come home on whether or not the removal of scores was done cleanly or not, but as far as I'm concerned your word is as good as nothing without actual concrete proof. Do you have a recording of your run? Were you aware of any action your squadmates participated in that might have triggered red flags? How do I know that you're not lying through your teeth and saying this just for forum clout?

DE might not have handled this situation as best as they could have in many regards, but their actions are a separate issue from your responsibility as a player. At the end of the day you as a player ought to be prepared to be as 'clean' and transparent as you can if there's ever an inquiry into whatever action you take on the game.

 

[KesslerCOIL]

On 2019-06-05 at 3:49 AM, -Bliekord- said:

I do omit it being overpowered, but I'm not the one who implemented that into the game 
Also Vigorous swap isn't an exploit, that's like saying "your creativity is an exploit". On top of that, vigorous swap has been used on more than Oberon since it's release, why didn't DE fix it then, there are many build videos mentioning it.

If DE gives the tools to do so, let it be that, and move on, disliking how they are making the game? move on.

It's just a game, and we are just trying to play the game.

 

Edit: Also I forgot something that a friend told me to mention
Vigorous swap translate to "On equip gives you 165% damage for 3 seconds "... isn't that what the video was showing? They are equipping and unequipping secondary and primary to gain damage. I do not understand why you claim it is an oversight, it is equipped onto our warframes, and gives damage (no specific damage, just damage!).

You equip a weapon, not Oberons 1. I'm pretty sure just about no one saw that mod and thought "oh that will affect my abilities', but Quasars sure would think "hmm... i wonder if they accidentally made that work on abilities so we can exploit the leaderboard again"  
  
On the warframe wiki, no one is assuming in the comments that it works on abilities(other than weapon type abilities) and DE even patched it to not work with weapon type abilities so it's pretty damn obviously NOT intended to work on abilities.

[Nirrel]

10 hours ago, KesslerCOIL said:

 On the warframe wiki, no one is assuming in the comments that it works on abilities(other than weapon type abilities) and DE even patched it to not work with weapon type abilities so it's pretty damn obviously NOT intended to work on abilities.

It was known and documented that it did work not only with Oberon 1 but a lot of warframe abilities since it came out wich was nearly a year ago. It wasn't a secret. DE had a full year to patch it out as they did it for exalted weapons but they choose not to. So.. it would seem stupid to say now after a year (edit: 9 months?) that it wasn't "obviously" intended and people thought it would use it to cheat the leaderboards.

[KesslerCOIL]

8 hours ago, Nirrel said:

It was known and documented that it did work not only with Oberon 1 but a lot of warframe abilities since it came out wich was nearly a year ago. It wasn't a secret. DE had a full year to patch it out as they did it for exalted weapons but they choose not to. So.. it would seem stupid to say now after a year (edit: 9 months?) that it wasn't "obviously" intended and people thought it would use it to cheat the leaderboards.

Id say the more obvious answer is that it's an oversight, DE misses a LOT of unintended interactions and has taken a full year to notice on multiple occasions. Same goes for anything unintended in warframe, there are tons of unintended interactions which are beneficial to players and are detrimental(countless examples for Limbos rift)

[Nirrel]

7 hours ago, KesslerCOIL said:

Id say the more obvious answer is that it's an oversight, DE misses a LOT of unintended interactions and has taken a full year to notice on multiple occasions. Same goes for anything unintended in warframe, there are tons of unintended interactions which are beneficial to players and are detrimental(countless examples for Limbos rift)

That is your opinion that doesn't consider certain facts. DE did in fact know that it interacted with abilities because exalted weapon are warframe abilities. Oversee at that point the other abilities for me is intentional and that is a perfectly logical conclusion.

 

1. It was in the game for 9 months documented and DE never even said it was unintended

2. DE patched out exalted weapons benefitting from it (so they  were perfectly aware that the mod in question did affect warframe abilities)

3. In the mod description isn't specified the damage type (weapon damage) as they did with other mods in the game if there is a possible misunderstanding

So anybody using the interaction was perfectly justified to do so and there was no reason to think it was an exploit. Why would they have? Only because add damage? Indeed nobody thought so and whined about it until somebody scored very high with it in the event wich is quite hypocritical imo.

At the most you can report it to DE that you think it's an overpowered mechanic in a game that certainly doesn't need even more power creep and then let them decide and eventually balance their game. If they wanna change it in the future or simple nerf it doesn't matter, they can do whatever they want . Until then nobody can be attacked and called an exploiter who used it.

 

 

[KesslerCOIL]

On 2019-06-08 at 11:43 PM, Nirrel said:

That is your opinion that doesn't consider certain facts. DE did in fact know that it interacted with abilities because exalted weapon are warframe abilities. Oversee at that point the other abilities for me is intentional and that is a perfectly logical conclusion.

 

1. It was in the game for 9 months documented and DE never even said it was unintended

2. DE patched out exalted weapons benefitting from it (so they  were perfectly aware that the mod in question did affect warframe abilities)

3. In the mod description isn't specified the damage type (weapon damage) as they did with other mods in the game if there is a possible misunderstanding

So anybody using the interaction was perfectly justified to do so and there was no reason to think it was an exploit. Why would they have? Only because add damage? Indeed nobody thought so and whined about it until somebody scored very high with it in the event wich is quite hypocritical imo.

At the most you can report it to DE that you think it's an overpowered mechanic in a game that certainly doesn't need even more power creep and then let them decide and eventually balance their game. If they wanna change it in the future or simple nerf it doesn't matter, they can do whatever they want . Until then nobody can be attacked and called an exploiter who used it.

 

 

1. It's still rather likely it's been overlooked or backlogged.
  
2. I'd say it's far more likely that they werent aware of it affecting other abilities, because the intent was for it to affect weapons and the abilities it's affecting now are extremely specific(like 10 of all the abilities)
  
3. The mod description isnt really evidence either since there is no other mod that just says "damage" that affects abilities, that is always reserved for weapons.

[Kimimoto]

On 2019-05-29 at 5:15 PM, Gabbynaru said:

This is supposed to be a co-op game, so why not encourage more cooperative gameplay rather than competitive?

Because there's nothing to do in this game. You obviously haven't hit that point in the game yet.