PLEASE READ. Instead of all these reworks, we need to come together and decide how DPS and CC should be implemented going forward.

[(PSN)FK2P]

Both DPS and CC roles are being siphoned out of the game in newer content which seems to answer to the argument that too much damage on abilities ‘nuking’ is not a fun idea for all players in the squad, and that the old LOR days of holding up all enemies with CC was equally as boring to players.

So the question arises...

How should flat DPS warframes and flat CC warframes stay relevant, whilst existing in a game where the fast, gun and melee gameplay is what players enjoy. This game after all isn’t an MMO and abilities don’t have rotations, the closest to this being Harrow. This game is a 3rd person shooter with added abilities on top, so should warframe abilities be dealing all the damage, or should weapons be instead dealing the damage, should we be building up damage for long runs like saryn, or perhaps pumping damage into abilities to achieve big damage? How can we keep damage only warframes relevant when the biggest enemies cannot be targeted by abilities, their kit often offers no defence in its place.

Flat crowd control like in the old raids proved a boring and lifeless experience, shooting masses of helpless enemies held up was disengaging, do we balance this by allowing some tougher enemies to be immune to CC? Are those warframes then ever going to be used when self buffing damage is the only way to defeat these new enemies?

im noticing that self buffing warframes are becoming the popular choices of most players, nezha, inaros, rhino, octavia, ivara etc, chroma after his nerf is in a sticky position but I still see people using him a lot more than frames that the newer content has basically pushed out, like vauban, who’s entire kit revolves around holding up trash mobs, which haven’t been the focus of the game since the plains of eidolon came out.

How do we fix this problem? How do we build a game where all warframes are in balance with their enemies, and still are able to do extreme long endurance runs, without completely nuking low levels and taking the fun out of the game for new players. For me personally I was ENCORAGED by the high MR players back in 2014 to become powerful like them and have something to work towards, but players are different. I personally wouldn’t have spent money on a game where I didn’t have something to work towards and I personally really enjoy endurance runs. Getting coordinated with a squad and putting your gear to the ultimate test is still relevant and fun to me 5 years after making multiple accounts and ranking up, I’m MR13 on this account and I’m really enjoying it for my third time. Being a new player and being weak and learning from the high ranking players was an essential part of the game and the community at large for me. How do we balance this game?

 

[krc473]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

How do we build a game where all warframes are in balance with their enemies, and still are able to do extreme long endurance runs, without completely nuking low levels and taking the fun out of the game for new players.

It’s simply: we don’t. The community is far too split on what they actually want for this to ever happen.

[(PSN)robi191291]

1- Soft cap in range. 

2- More complex missions that only do one thing all the time. Defend this, kill this. More Mechanics. 

3-More resistant enemies. Still the perfect example is the nox i think. 

4-Scalable rewards. That play against hard enemies will be rewarding. 

5-Less stack % damage and maybe more additive, and less cheap, that only require put  . One example you have difference of damage between 2 weapons, with mods this increase, with school focus this increase more, with arcanes this increase more, with buffs of warframe increase more, and optional but add rivens. 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

How do we fix this problem?

Solution is actually as obvious as it is unpopular - reduce ability spam.

Ability immune enemies are on the rise, because we can either turn off AI with a single CC ability forever or just delete enemies in their spawns. Right now, almost nothing hinders players in spamming those skills back to back: there are no cooldowns and energy is hardly a limiter.

Also this:

38 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The community is far too split on what they actually want for this to ever happen.

I would say infantile, but your version is more diplomatic.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I think frames that have DPS abilities should carry utility along side the damage.  Like saryn can strip armor and weaken enemies she doesn't out right kill.  Or garuda forcing slash procs.  CC wise I think CC should effect everything.  But have either deminishing returns/effects outright or the farther out you go range wise.  I do think cc immunity has a place in the game for certain fights.  But I don't think standard mob enemies should have this.  they should just be resilient to it somehow.  Not immune.

[Teridax68]

These are all valid and critical points, and the fact that they haven't really been addressed in official capacity I think has made the issues behind them worsen over time:

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

How should flat DPS warframes and flat CC warframes stay relevant, whilst existing in a game where the fast, gun and melee gameplay is what players enjoy. 

I think the most basic principle behind this is that our abilities should not override the rest of our gameplay, only enhance it: one of the problems with many abilities is that they tend to feature protracted animation locks that root the player's warframe in place, which makes us determine whether the ability's benefit is even worth that self-stun, a calculation that shouldn't happen to begin with. Moreover, many of these abilities tend to dominate gameplay, rather than give us room to use our other tools, namely parkour and weapons: this is particularly prevalent on older frames (e.g. frames like Frost, Ember, Nyx, etc. whose abilities encourage them to just stand around and cast big, radial effects), but also exists on fairly recent frames, including frames like Wisp or Revenant, whose gameplay often ends up reducing to pressing 4, disabling one's parkour and weapons, and just pointing our big nuke at the enemy (or, in Revenant's case, just walking near them). We therefore also need abilities designed to play alongside our parkour and weapons, rather than dominate them.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

should warframe abilities be dealing all the damage, or should weapons be instead dealing the damage

I think it can be both, so long as our damaging abilities do something different from our weapons: pressing a button for a big radial explosion is something no weapon can really do, or should be able to do (looking at you, Atterax...), whereas firing a big laser beam (e.g. Wisp's 4) is exactly what many weapons do, and better. I think nuke frames should be distinguished by the fact that they're particularly good at killing either crowds or high-priority targets, and while their kits can be self-sufficient, they shouldn't outright exclude our weapons (which also means reducing cast animations).

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

should we be building up damage for long runs like saryn, or perhaps pumping damage into abilities to achieve big damage?

I think the latter: while it's a common player request for frames to scale into higher levels, I feel that defeats the very purpose of enemy level scaling, which is to make missions tougher until there comes a point where it becomes too difficult to go on: in this respect, frames that can reduce the effectiveness of that enemy scaling by scaling with the enemy, or scaling damage over time, simply make it more difficult for the game to implement any sort of difficulty without resorting to hard counters such as ability immunities. Simply giving abilities flat, non-scaling damage, and balancing all of that at the same level, would make for a more stable environment.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

How can we keep damage only warframes relevant when the biggest enemies cannot be targeted by abilities, their kit often offers no defence in its place.

We can't. If the entire purpose of your warframe is to output stuff against the enemy, and your enemies are immune to your outputs, then your warframe is, for all intents and purposes, powerless. This is why making enemies completely immune to abilities is a bad idea, because it reduces a huge number of warframes to near-complete useless, as can already be seen in the current metagame.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Flat crowd control like in the old raids proved a boring and lifeless experience, shooting masses of helpless enemies held up was disengaging, do we balance this by allowing some tougher enemies to be immune to CC?

I'd say no, the fundamental problem there is simply that being able to spam CC and prevent all enemies in sight from interacting with us is bad design. In this respect, I think the solution should be to put stronger limitations on our crowd control: if, for example, Vauban's Bastille dispelled the previous cast, so that you could only have one Bastille up at a time, he wouldn't be able to lock down a whole map (which currently would be just kicking him while he's already down, so this is also with the assumption that Vauban would be receiving massive buffs and changes to improve him overall). Having CC frames is fine; defining or balancing CC frames around being able to stun every incoming enemy before they can do anything isn't healthy. Some boss and miniboss-type enemies should probably be resistant to CC, which could also have diminishing returns against them, but even then I don't think outright immunity really helps anyone.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Are those warframes then ever going to be used when self buffing damage is the only way to defeat these new enemies?

I mean, if those enemies are immune to CC, then yeah, that's not going to make CC frames very useful against them. The same can be said for enemies immune to ability damage against nuke frames whose damage comes from their casts, which is why immunities are generally not good design.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

im noticing that self buffing warframes are becoming the popular choices of most players

This is because ability-immune enemies are so common now in relevant content that it doesn't make much sense to use anyone else: frames who project power onto enemies can't function properly, because many enemies can now ignore their power, but frames who project power onto themselves aren't really affected, because their steroids then make them supremely effective against those same ability-immune enemies. So long as we continue to only balance frames indirectly through more immunities on enemies, we will continue to push typical caster frames out of the picture.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

How do we fix this problem? How do we build a game where all warframes are in balance with their enemies, and still are able to do extreme long endurance runs, without completely nuking low levels and taking the fun out of the game for new players.

I think the fundamental problem here is that, if your abilities can simply eliminate all interaction with low-level enemies, then they're probably not very well designed. Ember's World on Fire is an infamous example of an unhealthy ability that's been seriously overnerfed, precisely because it turns levels into walking simulators when it's even decent. Our abilities need proper gameplay and interaction built into them, rather than just Energy costs (and, in a world of perfect ability design, we may not even need Energy as a constraint either).

2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Being a new player and being weak and learning from the high ranking players was an essential part of the game and the community at large for me. How do we balance this game?

While I agree progression is important, I feel defining progression purely in terms of gaining more power kind of misrepresents the way we actually progress in Warframe, and ultimately perpetuates one of its key balance issues. To start, our actual vertical power curve is rather short: once a player maxes out the right mods, gets some decent weapons, and maybe puts their Focus into some crucial nodes, there's relatively little that can be done to become more powerful. There are, however, literal hundreds of different ways of becoming powerful in a different way, by trying out a new frame or weapon, and that I think is what ends up making up the real meat of our progression.

The other half to this is that much of our progression is also skill-based: over time, we familiarize ourselves with Warframe's many systems and mechanics, and eventually master them, so that challenges that we used to find difficult then become easy. This is also why I don't think getting statistically stronger really helps with balance, because it worsens the game's downward difficulty curve, where it's hardest at the start, but becomes increasingly less challenging as we continue. This is also why many players feel starved for an endgame, because even our current "endgame" missions are so trivially easy compared to the new player experience that there's no real challenge to be had. Thus, I think it might be better for balance if we ditched the notion of straight-up increasing in power, and focused instead on altering our power in new and interesting ways.

[Genitive]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Solution is actually as obvious as it is unpopular - reduce ability spam.

There can be a solution. Here's an idea.

Make abilities cost more energy after casting them repeatedly. For example, you cast Smite, it costs 25 energy, but a 10-second timer starts. If you cast it again the timer resets and gets 1 stack of "spam stacks". If you get 2 stacks, ability cost rises to 30 for 30 seconds. If you cast Smite again in those 30 seconds, the cost will rise again and again until player waits 30 seconds. After waiting the cost will return to normal. And the 30-second timer will reset after each cast within the window. 

Players would get a couple of normal casts before being punished for spamming, so it would reduce effectiveness of some cheese abilities and hopefully make players think about what to cast. Numbers also shouldn't be too steep immediately but build up over time, so it suddenly doesn't make a 1st ability drain whole pool.

Such an approach will work against all factions and maybe make nullifying unnecessary.

Anyway, what do you think and how would you react if something similar to this idea was implemented?

[Arcira]

I see two general possibilities.

Either give every warframe tools to build in any direction or change the way ability scaling works. I see more tendencies to the former since the latest warframes have more stuff pushed into there kits. I´d go further and say give each warframe more abilities to choose from.

In case of the scaling rework this would be a good start:

2 hours ago, (PS4)robi191291 said:

1- Soft cap in range. 

2- More complex missions that only do one thing all the time. Defend this, kill this. More Mechanics. 

3-More resistant enemies. Still the perfect example is the nox i think. 

4-Scalable rewards. That play against hard enemies will be rewarding. 

5-Less stack % damage and maybe more additive, and less cheap, that only require put  . One example you have difference of damage between 2 weapons, with mods this increase, with school focus this increase more, with arcanes this increase more, with buffs of warframe increase more, and optional but add rivens. 

Range should scale the area on aoe abilities not the radius. This will cause diminishing return on radius and more consitency.

Also I´d add less efficiency of health and armor on certain warframe as well as damage reduction stacking. Alternatively give everyone more ehp scaling tools and adjust the enemy AI in terms of aggressivity. Sometimes they aim worse than stormtrooper or don´t do anything at all. Anyway the ehp discrepancy between dps and tank should be resonable.

33 minutes ago, Genitive said:

There can be a solution. Here's an idea.

Make abilities cost more energy after casting them repeatedly. For example, you cast Smite, it costs 25 energy, but a 10-second timer starts. If you cast it again the timer resets and gets 1 stack of "spam stacks". If you get 2 stacks, ability cost rises to 30 for 30 seconds. If you cast Smite again in those 30 seconds, the cost will rise again and again until player waits 30 seconds. After waiting the cost will return to normal. And the 30-second timer will reset after each cast within the window. 

Players would get a couple of normal casts before being punished for spamming, so it would reduce effectiveness of some cheese abilities and hopefully make players think about what to cast. Numbers also shouldn't be too steep immediately but build up over time, so it suddenly doesn't make a 1st ability drain whole pool.

Such an approach will work against all factions and maybe make nullifying unnecessary.

Anyway, what do you think and how would you react if something similar to this idea was implemented?

It´s quite difficult to communicate this to the player. In ESO there is a light version of this one and it´s not very intuitive eventhough some frames do nothing but pushing a button every 10 seconds sometimes you loose track. If you ask me a simple cooldown on certain abilities would do pretty much the same thing and is easier to track. Why DE choose to make enemies immune instead so you can´t use them at all is beyond me.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Arcira

[(PSN)robi191291]

hace 2 horas, ShortCat dijo:

Solution is actually as obvious as it is unpopular - reduce ability spam.

 

DE can add enemies that reflect the damage temporaly. Or a specific element. 

[(PSN)robi191291]

hace 8 minutos, Arcira dijo:

I see two general possibilities.

Either give every warframe tools to build in any direction or change the way ability scaling works. I see more tendencies to the former since the latest warframes have more stuff pushed into there kits. I´d go further and say give each warframe more abilities to choose from.

In case of the scaling rework this would be a good start:

Range should scale the area on aoe abilities not the radius. This will cause diminishing return on radius and more consitency.

Also I´d add less efficiency of health and armor on certain warframe as well as damage reduction stacking. Alternatively give everyone more ehp scaling tools and adjust the enemy AI in terms of aggressivity. Sometimes they aim worse than stormtrooper or don´t do anything at all. Anyway the ehp discrepancy between dps and tank should be resonable.

 

Are good ideas

[Genitive]

37 minutes ago, Arcira said:

It´s quite difficult to communicate this to the player. In ESO there is a light version of this one and it´s not very intuitive eventhough some frames do nothing but pushing a button every 10 seconds sometimes you loose track. If you ask me a simple cooldown on certain abilities would do pretty much the same thing and is easier to track. Why DE choose to make enemies immune instead so you can´t use them at all is beyond me.

That's true. I guess you could make each ability track itself, but that would just clutter the interface a lot.

[Guest]

I have suggested it many times already. If you want to cut out ability spam:

1. Give Warframes slow innate energy regen and perhaps allow their 1/gun hits/melee hits to generate a bit of energy on the side when used. The idea of generator skills giving a bulk of energy is something common an ARPGs and other stuff. This incentivises you to keep fighting rather than wait for the energy to regen, but doesn't prevent you from waiting if it's really too dangerous. Also, you don't actually have to kill for orbs with this so if the enemy is too armored/high EHP you can still whittle them down with powers and gunplay.
2. REMOVE COMPLETELY Arcane Energize, Energy Pizza, Zenurik's energy regen, Energy Orbs. No more outside energy sources or RNG energy - you only get what you manage to get via regen and generator weapons/skills. Could make the exception for Energy Pizza ... but put it on a very long cooldown, maybe 90 seconds before you can drop the next one.
3. Change efficiency scaling so 30% more efficiency lets you cast 30% more powers on the same energy bar - this means stacking efficiency gives diminishing returns as well.
4. Remove Energy Leech Eximus - you don't need em anymore.
5. Make the powers actually worth it and not something you need to spam to see results. One reason why you see people spam is because of the energy economy, but the other reason is because the powers actually require spamming to be effective.

You are forced to shoot/slash if you wanna cast more, you have to let the energy build up, you cannot just drop equipment/zenurik.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Guest

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Nerf damage so CC has a role. 

There should be enemies that players want to team up and fight against together because they're that much of a threat. CC is what should help teams unite to jump said enemy.

But also, some CC is way too strong as well. Molecular Prime makes almost everything unloseable so some enemies should be immune to CC from EVERY faction.

Edited June 20, 2019 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[Steel_Rook]

I'm about to say something controversial, so hold on to your butts: Ability spam is the central issue with abilities, and the most direct way to fix it is to remove Energy as a concept entirely and instead balance all abilities by cooldown. Right now, Warframe uses a very archaic "mana" system like back with Diablo and before, and I've never found that to work particularly well. There's a reason Diablo 3 went with a variety of different resources. Basically, go the way of Overwatch, where the majority of combat is performed using your weapons and basic movement controls, while abilities are fired off every so often to punctuate the fight. And if you don't like me bringing up Overwatch, then go with the Titanfall 2's design. That game is proof positive in my mind that having a few abilities on cooldown and one nuke on a resource is more than plenty if the underlying combat engine is robust enough - which it is, for both Warframe and Titanfall and indeed Overwatch.

Energy has a couple of fundamental issues with it that I don't see a good way to solve. The first is the "Feast or Famine" issue, where low-level players have far too little energy to actually experience their Warframe's unique abilities, and high-level players have so many sources of energy that they may as well have an infinite supply. Like with a lot of other things in Warframe, this massive disparity between builds means that no balance can exist where some players aren't constantly sucking air while others entirely ignoring the system. Going to a purely cooldown-based system, instead, means that all players - new and old - will have to budget their abilities to some extent, but not to the point of never using them at all.

The other fundamental issue is - as mentioned above - ability spam. Take Nidus, for instance. His playstyle is utterly surreal, mashing one ability key the majority of the time and potentially never firing my gun. Not only am I disregarding a major combat component, once I build to enough stacks of mutation I can sort of render combat pointless. Larva + stompstompstomp gets a little old after a while. The same goes for something like Nova, who can spam Antimatter Drops over and over again. And then you have Warframes like Revenant, where the player can hit 4 and go for a coffee before their presence is needed again. By their very nature, abilities can override the game's combat system and lock us out of it, but that should only be temporary. Energy is intended to assure this in theory, but as a one-size-fits-all resource it's pretty much impossible to balance for all Warframes in all situations. Per-ability cooldowns, instead, would ensure that we're never in a situation where we're spamming the same ability back-to-back for minutes at a time.

To be perfectly honest - and I expect this is where you'll stop reading if you've made it this far - I tend to consider Energy/Endurance/Mana/etc. systems to be predominantly anti-fun. They serve a legitimate balance purpose, but the experience of actually dealing with them feels like a developer trying to keep me from having too much fun. Sure, cooldowns can be frustrating, as well, though keeping them short enough tends to get around most of the issues. The Division 2 putting my healing drone on a 3-minute cooldown if it gets destroyed means I keep forgetting to use it. Titanfall 2 putting my Gun Shield on a 10-second cooldown, though, means it's always at the back of my head. Instinctively, I understand that I can't spam the ability. Emotionally, I look forward to using it again. Contrast this against spamming my key to shoot fireball after fireball.

I don't expect a wholesale removal of energy will happen... But I do expect we'll see it hold less and less importance in favour of Warframe-specific resources and mechanics, instead. Nidus doesn't really use Energy to a substantial extent, Hydrin plain doesn't HAVE energy in the first place, Baruuk has an entirely separate resource responsible for his hult, etc. Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that we should be using our basic controls the majority of the time and use our abilities only sometimes. Warframes which end up spamming a single ability over and over again are a sign that the system isn't working well, as far as I'm concerned.

[Arcira]

28 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

snip

I´m not a fan of downgrading abilities even further. Sure spamming certain abilities especially those with huge aoe or defense capabilities is a problem and that should be adjusted. However the main goal should be to make abilities competitive with gunplay or melee combat otherwise Warframe becomes just another Shooter.

In my opinion the optimal case would be if you can decide by yourself wether you want to carry only primaries, secondaries, melee or no weapons at all (and get a bonus for your abilties or something) and each of these options would be at least somewhat possible to play. Sure some enemies could be resistent against certain things but I really dislike any kind of immunity or restriction for specific playstyles.

I think cooldowns could be beneficial but not all abilities need them.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

The game is fine as is with it's power fantasy progression. If you want to be weaker and not kill everything as easily and play solo instead of trying to remove mechanics or change them in major ways to fit your way of playing. I see peopel suggesting taking things like energize and other things you have to work for and earn or get plat to trade for because some things are  "To OP". People earned or got the plat for that power though and it is completely fair game, people need to accept that new players will not be able to stand up to the vets numbers for quite some time no matter what they do until they learn everything the dedicated players have learned. I like feeling like a demigod and Warframe is a game that lets you do it without the restrictions of other looter shooters, Let games be different and grow a spine or go play destiny if you want a balanced experience will ya!

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

13 hours ago, (PS4)robi191291 said:

1- Soft cap in range. 

2- More complex missions that only do one thing all the time. Defend this, kill this. More Mechanics. 

3-More resistant enemies. Still the perfect example is the nox i think. 

4-Scalable rewards. That play against hard enemies will be rewarding. 

5-Less stack % damage and maybe more additive, and less cheap, that only require put  . One example you have difference of damage between 2 weapons, with mods this increase, with school focus this increase more, with arcanes this increase more, with buffs of warframe increase more, and optional but add rivens. 

1- this would decrease build diversity and people would just go for more of the other stats, Builds would be just as broken but in different ways. Either way it is fine as is and maxamizing range means other things wont be as strong or even weaker then usual.

2- One of your better suggestions which I completely get behind, YES TO THIS!

3- Also yes to this, the Nox is one of my fav enemies and I wish we had more of them that can stand up to our crazy damage but have a weak point that once broken is certain death for the unit.

4- Three in a row, Reward people for longer run times and really stressing peoples min-maxed builds and giving vets something to do that does not require reducing their efeciency or removing stuff form the game because people complain about OP veterans ruining their missions. If they don't like they have tools to avoid these sorts of players, otherwise though luck for them...

5- I would agree to this only if  Enemy Armor was toned down to a point that your weapons would do just as much damage after you lose all the multiplicative damage. We don't need the annoyingly tanky enemies even harder to kill because it breaks the flow of combat as is, shooting the same enemy for ages is not fun and anyone can agree to that. (Initial release wolf would of loved being even more unkillable though XD)

Some of your ssuggestions are awful. Others are good. And one can be good if enemies armor and sheilds are changed as well so we do roughly the same amount of damage...

 

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

8 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

I have suggested it many times already. If you want to cut out ability spam:

REMOVE COMPLETELY Arcane Energize, Energy Pizza, Zenurik's energy regen, Energy Orbs. No more outside energy sources or RNG energy - you only get what you manage to get via regen and generator weapons/skills. Could make the exception for Energy Pizza ... but put it on a very long cooldown, maybe 90 seconds before you can drop the next one.

And would you be compensating people for all the plat and time people spent to make it easier to get these things or make the grind easier to max them? If not then this is completely off base, so better get hundreds of thousands of plat to reimburse people for stuff that is completely balanced! Also don't forget about giving away all your life force to those who spent time farming for these things so they did not do it all for nothing as well :P. This is of course sarcasm BUT a stupid suggestion deserves a stupid response so their ya go XD.

Edited June 20, 2019 by (XB1)Zweimander

[xV3NOMx]

17 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said:

Both DPS and CC roles are being siphoned out of the game in newer content which seems to answer to the argument that too much damage on abilities ‘nuking’ is not a fun idea for all players in the squad, and that the old LOR days of holding up all enemies with CC was equally as boring to players.

I disagree.

Having capable warframes for DPS and CC roles are necessary for a squad's survival. Most squads do try to support one another for long mission runs, to reap the rewards and to farm for their needs. Taking that element away from the game, will be defeating the purpose of having squads in the first place.

 

Stop Whining.

If you and others find your role in the squad too boring, then exchange roles or find another squad. 

[Perhaps, it is better for you and others to play the game "solo," if you are going to complain about how well other Players are playing the game better than you are.]

Edited June 21, 2019 by xV3NOMx

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

If Mesa gets reworked, no one touches her unless it's Pablo the master reworker. Just saying.

Edited June 21, 2019 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Guest]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

And would you be compensating people for all the plat and time people spent to make it easier to get these things or make the grind easier to max them? If not then this is completely off base, so better get hundreds of thousands of plat to reimburse people for stuff that is completely balanced! Also don't forget about giving away all your life force to those who spent time farming for these things so they did not do it all for nothing as well :P. This is of course sarcasm BUT a stupid suggestion deserves a stupid response so their ya go XD.

Simple - don't compensate and just do it. I mean, DE didn't compensate us when things like Draco, Excalibur's Radial Javelin, Ember etc were reworked. Ash's huge nerf was never compensated for. Mag's original map delete pull was not compensated for. A mere Arcane Energize or Zenurik isn't much to them. They could take Primed Chamber out of the game and laugh at your salt.

Do you really assume that you, as a player using their service, really have anything owed to you by the devs? I gave up on that thinking long ago. They can already remove your plat for whatever reason they have (like Chargeback) even if you are a victim of a bad trade after spending time farming X riven. All they have to do is give some justification. So no, your attempt at sarcasm falls flat. DE doesn't have to care about the plat and time people spent.

(Just saying, you may not want to assume I am a new player lacking all those options and being salty about it)

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

2 hours ago, Datam4ss said:

Simple - don't compensate and just do it. I mean, DE didn't compensate us when things like Draco, Excalibur's Radial Javelin, Ember etc were reworked. Ash's huge nerf was never compensated for. Mag's original map delete pull was not compensated for. A mere Arcane Energize or Zenurik isn't much to them. They could take Primed Chamber out of the game and laugh at your salt.

 Do you really assume that you, as a player using their service, really have anything owed to you by the devs? I gave up on that thinking long ago. They can already remove your plat for whatever reason they have (like Chargeback) even if you are a victim of a bad trade after spending time farming X riven. All they have to do is give some justification. So no, your attempt at sarcasm falls flat. DE doesn't have to care about the plat and time people spent.

 (Just saying, you may not want to assume I am a new player lacking all those options and being salty about it)

At that same time though they would never do something as stupid as remove something takes ages to farm with extremely low drop chances. they even respected people by giving three forma to people who own wukong recently and you think they would just remove these things without giving anything back even if they were dumb enough to do it? It was old DE that never compensated people, but the new DE does seem to have much more respect for the things their players earn or buy with plat. People like you whom wish to nerf players for the sake of balance in a power fantasy game like warframe is honestly laughable. Destiny is around for those who want a balanced experience so if you want that go right ahead and play destiny and leave warframe out of it. People play Warframe to have fun and kill lots of things with ease...not to plink away at every single enemy slowly, At least the majority does that is and they are what matter so forget the newbies. ADAPT to the current game or DIE and leave it behind if it isn't your style, don't try to change everything around you to fit your agenda.

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

At that same time though they would never do something as stupid as remove something takes ages to farm with extremely low drop chances. they even respected people by giving three forma to people who own wukong recently and you think they would just remove these things without giving anything back even if they were dumb enough to do it? It was old DE that never compensated people, but the new DE does seem to have much more respect for the things their players earn or buy with plat. People like you whom wish to nerf players for the sake of balance in a power fantasy game like warframe is honestly laughable. Destiny is around for those who want a balanced experience so if you want that go right ahead and play destiny and leave warframe out of it. People play Warframe to have fun and kill lots of things with ease...not to plink away at every single enemy slowly, At least the majority does that is and they are what matter so forget the newbies. ADAPT to the current game or DIE and leave it behind if it isn't your style, don't try to change everything around you to fit your agenda.

That´s exactly the point. Low drop chances are a result of to much efficiency from certain builds. For example either you adjust all other warframes to somewhat near the clearspeed of Volt, Saryn or Equinox in ESO or which is much less complicated you tune them down. You can have things that are better at certain mission types but the discrepancy is just ridiculous sometimes to the point where you have no other choice but to use certain things.

So again the anticipated compensation would be much more reasonable dropchances for everyone.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Arcira

[Guest]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

It was old DE that never compensated people, but the new DE does seem to have much more respect for the things their players earn or buy with plat. People like you whom wish to nerf players for the sake of balance in a power fantasy game like warframe is honestly laughable.

I think you got it the other way around. Also, if you read my other posts, you will know I am not a Nerf Warrior. If anything, I am very vocal against nerfs, but there is a large proportion of the playerbase that doesn't embrace the power and the Devs themselves don't seem to embrace overwhelming power either.

Problem is, if I suggested what I really would like to see, a lot of people would say it is ridiculously OP. Therefore, I simply refrain from posting what I actually think and only suggest symptomatic solutions that meet halfway, because it seems that is the kind of thing the Devs and most players are more likely to see as reasonable.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

At that same time though they would never do something as stupid as remove something takes ages to farm with extremely low drop chances. they even respected people by giving three forma to people who own wukong recently and you think they would just remove these things without giving anything back even if they were dumb enough to do it? 

Three Forma is pretty much nothing.

They only gave me 1 forma back for the Tonkor. It's not that bad since it's one forma and forma are easy anyway.

I am not getting anything back for my riven rolls that got nerfed when Dispo Changed. Not even some Kuva so I can reroll the stuff that got buffed. So I have to slog through Kuva Survival. Nothing difficult about one hour+, but it is boring.

I didn't get back the Eidolon Shards I spent on some PoE Arcanes when they became built on purchase. Thanks to this, I have to play Eidolon content, which I do not have any problems doing, but I find a total slog fest that bores me, simply to rank up my last level of Quills (which is unnecessary anyway because Fortuna Arcanes are more useful)

Many examples exist. I am just so used to it I wouldn't be half assed if anything was removed and I was not compensated.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

At least the majority does that is and they are what matter so forget the newbies. ADAPT to the current game or DIE and leave it behind if it isn't your style, don't try to change everything around you to fit your agenda.

Again, you seem to be assuming I have a problem at playing the game, that I find it difficult, that I need to adapt or that I care about the new player experience at all. Your innate belief that I am maladapted to the current game is very much unfounded and very misguided.

I will repeat myself - you are assuming I am one of those jealous players lacking the equipment. I will TELL you. I don't belong to that category. Just because I make a suggestion, doesn't mean I actually have some great thirst to see any changes being made. Because I know nothing will change.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

22 minutes ago, Arcira said:

That´s exactly the point. Low drop chances are a result of to much efficiency from certain builds. For example either you adjust all other warframes to somewhat near the clearspeed of Volt, Saryn or Equinox in ESO or which is much less complicated you tune them down. You can have things that are better at certain mission types but the discrepancy is just ridiculous sometimes to the point where you have no other choice but to use certain things.

 So again the anticipated compensation would be much more reasonable dropchances for everyone.

I can somewhat understand this, however I would rather everything else become just as efficient and nothing is nerfed or taken away from people who worked hard for what they have. I spent alot of time farming for my arcane energizes and all the focus associated with my operator to make it as great a utility as it is. Dedication deserves to be rewarded and taking stuff away from the long time players is not going to go over well if the only reason is potentially "Well all the players get better drop rates and Veterans get screwed as a result!". the drop rates probably would not go up anyway even if stuff was nerfed because this game is free to play and they need people to buy drop chance boosters and other various things to stay afloat. It is great you think they would greatly increase drop rates if big changes were made but that is hoping for to much, all that would happen is people lose stuff and maybe their is a small increase of drop chances at best. I prefer to be a demi god and keep my effeciency while those who are below me have to claw their way up to get the same efficiency like me and other vets did. Fair is fair and the game is balanced as is...