Revenant desperately needs some speeding up...

[JohnLemon123]

...For at least his first and third abilities.

Ever since his release, i've not been one to shy from criticizing revenant's overall design, having ragged on about his problems many, many times. From his discordant design to his general lack of cohesion, there was much to question, particularly his inability to properly apply many of his synergies thanks to friendly fire and painfully slow casting times. yet despite that, i've played him more than any other frame, and tried all sorts of builds to try and extract as much from him as possible, as i felt the potential for something great was always there, but just heavily restricted.

But then, then i tried making him faster, so i equipped both natural talent AND speed drift on him. And suddenly, it felt as though i was playing a completely different warframe, one that could generate massive amounts of disabling CC in the blink of an eye, all the while decimating enemies regardless of their level while dashing around at breakneck speeds. 

Suddenly, enthrall was no longer a dead ability that inhibited his design. I could fill my thrall cap in a few seconds at most, and i didn't even mind my team killing them anymore, as i was now able to create more instantly ! Suddenly, reave turned into an ability that allowed me to reach whichever place i pleased in an instant, while also one-hitting enemies AND giving me back mesmer charges ! it became so efficient that i didn't even NEED to recast my two ! ALL these synergies that i used to consider worthless had now opened up, and suddenly allowed the frame to truly shine the way he was supposed to.

So, that's all fantastic, right ? Well, not really, as a difference THIS drastic does pose some problematic questions.

Should i really have had to sacrifice 2 of my mod slots to make these synergies work ? should i really have to lose 20% of my mod space so the abilities function the way they should from the start? 

This isn't a harrow situation, where natural talent (while always welcome) is a player-made decision. this isn't really a case where modding makes the already present interactions better. Hell, this isn't even an augment situation, where an otherwise mediocre ability becomes fantastic with an augment (like khora's 1), or where a good one becomes amazing (like nekros' 3). No, instead, this is a situation where something flat out does. not. work. unless you essentially lose a significant portion of your mod space for the sole purpose of allowing the frame to work properly.

my main concern is mainly the following : revenant is already starved for mod space. his 3 requires you to reach 250% strength to be effective, which itself requires blind rage AND transient fortitude. the former then forces you to use fleeting expertise (as his 4 is insanely pricy), while the latter, in addition to the aforementioned FE, now needs you to run primed continuity. however, thanks to his 4's energy cost and his other abilities relying on duration, you now need narrow minded AND a stretch mod to offset it (since range is no longer a hollow stat thanks to it affecting his 3), and a primed flow, thanks (again) to his 4 costing as much as it does. with the last two spaces being reserved for the speed mods, that's the entire frame completed.

with another batch of augments set to release soon (at least according to the preceding years' general release time), it'd be a shame to pass up what could potentially be a good mod simply due to the necessity of running two mods just for things to work as they should.

So... yeah, that's kind of it. I can understand his 2 being very slow, but his 1 and 3 could be so much more, if only they were made faster ! there IS something in there, there IS a harmonious kit in there, but it shouldn't have to cost so much mod space just to make it exist !

Edited July 10, 2019 by JohnLemon123

[--Aegis--MR9]

Anyone use him for anything else other than 2?

 

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, MR9BCI said:

Anyone use him for anything else other than 2?

 

I utilize his 4 from time to time, I'd use his 1 more if it didn't cause weird enemy invincibility glitches that require me to re-1 the enemy for them to be killed.

[Oldskinzz]

 

13 hours ago, MR9BCI said:

Anyone use him for anything else other than 2?

 

2 mainly, 4 why not since you need to stack lots of strength on him anyway and the beams do good damage up to sortie level. 3 to regain health when you don't pay attention and let 2 drop sometimes. I don't touch 1. He's pretty easy to build, stack tons of strength and sacrifice range.

[--Aegis--MR9]

5 minutes ago, Oldskinzz said:

 

2 mainly, 4 why not since you need to stack lots of strength on him anyway and the beams do good damage up to sortie level. 3 to regain health when you don't pay attention and let 2 drop sometimes. I don't touch 1. He's pretty easy to build, stack tons of strength and sacrifice range.

Because 4 also needs max efficiency and duration (then u cant stack strength). He is better as a mesmer skin tank, you dont need 3 when u can recast 2. One of the best tank in game, but not much useful for anything else.

Edited July 11, 2019 by MR9BCI

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2019-07-10 at 9:20 AM, MR9BCI said:

Anyone use him for anything else other than 2?

 

Honestly, his 2 is a completely over rated tank ability that everyone glosses over the the glaring faults in it because “OMG INVINCIBILITY! MOISTEN MY PANTIES!”. We really should not be supporting DE slapping an “over powered” mechanic on a sloppy design. That just tells them we’ll happy take crappy frames as long as they have at least 1 good thing about them locked away behind ten layers of terrible design.

His 4 on the other hand is very well designed and only suffers from excessive energy cost.

His other two abilities are just bad and need to go away.

Edited July 13, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[--Aegis--MR9]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Honestly, his 2 is a completely over rated tank ability that everyone glosses over the the glaring faults in it because “OMG INVINCIBILITY! MOISTEN MY PANTS!”. We really should not be supporting DE slapping an “over powered” mechanic on a sloppy design. That just tells them we’ll happy take crappy frames as long as they have at least 1 good thing about them locked away behind ten layers of terrible design.

His 4 on the other hand is very well designed and only suffers from excessive energy cost.

His other two abilities are just bad and need to go away.

I agree, I just dont see him useful for anything other than his 2, there are plenty of CC frames that outshines his 4th ability. He isnt very well designed, like most frames in recent days ( I mean who plays garuda or barook? Trust me, many wont play wisp if she didnt come with booties). But atleast he has one good ability that makes him shine in one department. 

[nslay]

14 hours ago, MR9BCI said:

Anyone use him for anything else other than 2?

 

I generally use all of his abilities. Depends on the mission though. Have you tried 3 on Kela de Thaym or any other boss? I'll start to use 1 heavily for long missions when enemies start to become harder to kill. Then I'll thin the herd with a sniper or Reave.

Spoiler

 

 

[Oldskinzz]

49 minutes ago, MR9BCI said:

Because 4 also needs max efficiency and duration (then u cant stack strength). He is better as a mesmer skin tank, you dont need 3 when u can recast 2. One of the best tank in game, but not much useful for anything else.

I build 308% strength for 18 mesmer skin charges. That along with around 110% duration and 135% efficiency gives decent energy endurance and good damage (edit: on his 4). Factor in zenurik bonuses and you can cast it pretty frequently. You can freely sacrifice range since that doesn't affect his 2 or 4 at all, and only minimal impact on 3.

As I mentioned, for a build like this his 4 isn't meant as his main damage dealer, his 2 is the main focus. You cast 4 only as the occasional room clearing tool and that can happen pretty frequently since you really don't need more than 2 or 3 seconds to clear most enemies, which costs like 60 energy total? Then just shoot whatever's left standing, which is likely stunned from your 2 anyway. Pick up more energy orbs, rinse and repeat.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Oldskinzz

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

17 minutes ago, MR9BCI said:

I agree, I just dont see him useful for anything other than his 2, there are plenty of CC frames that outshines his 4th ability. He isnt very well designed, like most frames in recent days ( I mean who plays garuda or barook? Trust me, many wont play wisp if she didnt come with booties). But atleast he has one good ability that makes him shine in one department. 

Hey! Don’t go dissing Garuda and Baruuk. They do not deserve to be thrown under the same bus as Revenant.

Garuda is a little clunky and has some serious micro management issues, but learning to play her rewards you with a very powerful and useful frame. Unlike Revenant who’s just hours of torment to understand and it’s not rewarding, just infuriating.

Baruuk wouldn’t be considered so bad IF DE BUFFED HIS ******** 4! Seriously, he’s a well put together frame that would stand as a unique and viable option if they didn’t make his 4 so unbearably useless against armor past level 100.

Wisps 4 is also pretty stupidly held back. 1 damage tick per second on a narrow beam? Seriously? What’s the point of making this cool sun fueled laser people if you don’t give the players an incentive to use it? The rest of her kit is a good blend of support and utility.

From Khora to Wisp the only black sheep is Revenant. The frame that was screwed at the very start by someone’s selfish desire for a vampire frame. A decision that turned a great concept into the definitive example of how not to make a frame. The only thing that’s more infuriating than his botched creation is the fact that people can defend such an abomination claiming that it’s “very good” and “well designed” and “one of the best frames in the game”. Calling Revenant one of the best is an insult to all the frames that had actual thought put into their design to make them functional and fun that made them some of the best frames.

Edited July 11, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[nslay]

13 minutes ago, MR9BCI said:

I agree, I just dont see him useful for anything other than his 2, there are plenty of CC frames that outshines his 4th ability. He isnt very well designed, like most frames in recent days ( I mean who plays garuda or barook? Trust me, many wont play wisp if she didnt come with booties). But atleast he has one good ability that makes him shine in one department. 

While his 4th ability is not the best nuking ability, it does do adaptive damage. We don't usually encounter sentient enemies, but it makes very fast work of them despite their ability to adapt to damage owing to its adaptive damage. Same with Ambulas which I think also has sentient-like damage adaptation capabilities. Ironically, his 4 is really bad against Infested owing Toxic Ancient/Ancient Healers essentially nullifying the Gas damage that his 4 inflicts on many Infested. Lastly, his 4 doesn't scale like his first 3 abilities. The first 3 will remain useful in very long missions while his 4 will eventually only tickle enemies.

[--Aegis--MR9]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hey! Don’t go dissing Garuda and Baruuk. They do not deserve to be thrown under the same bus as Revenant.

Garuda is a little clunky and has some serious micro management issues, but learning to play her rewards you with a very powerful and useful frame. Unlike Revenant who’s just hours of torment to understand and it’s not rewarding, just infuriating.

Baruuk wouldn’t be considered so bad IF DE BUFFED HIS ******** 4! Seriously, he’s a well put together frame that would stand as a unique and viable option if they didn’t make his 4 so unbearably useless against armor past level 100.

Wisps 4 is also pretty stupidly held back. 1 damage tick per second on a narrow beam? Seriously? What’s the point of making this cool sun fueled laser people if you don’t give the players an incentive to use it? The rest of her kit is a good blend of support and utility.

From Khora to Wisp the only black sheep is Revenant. The frame that was screwed at the very start by someone’s selfish desire for a vampire frame. A decision that turned a great concept into the definitive example of how not to make a frame. The only thing that’s more infuriating than his botched creation is the fact that people can defend such an abomination claiming that it’s “very good” and “well design” and “one of the best frames in the game”. Calling Revenant one of the best is an insult to all the frames that had actual thought put into their design to make them functional and fun that made them some of the best frames.

I agree with many things you said. Well atleast Revenant is something I use frequently as a tank, I dont see any "need" for Garuda or Baruuk. And Wisp is fashion frame. Seriously .. its hard to tell if her 4th is sunbeam or led-torch of my mobile phone (considering its damage lol).

Edited July 11, 2019 by MR9BCI

[Teridax68]

I don't think it ever makes sense in Warframe to make any frame pointlessly clunky, and Revenant I'd say is one of the most egregious examples of this due to his protracted cast animations. I don't see why he has to stand still for extended amounts of time for every ability he wants to use, and I fully agree that in the case of Enthrall and Reave, the cast animations are so prohibitive that the abilities become outright undesirable to use. Dramatically shortening those animations, and preventing them from restricting Revenant's other actions, I think could go a long way towards improving him (and there's a lot of improvement to be had with him).

[Oldskinzz]

I don't mind a casting speed buff for revenant, it would help in QOL.

Strongly disagree with anyone calling him weak though. He's anything but weak. His 2 is one of the best tank skills in the game, he has a convenient health and shield heal with 3, and has one of the best damaging 4's around. 

[Madway7]

21 hours ago, Aldain said:

I utilize his 4 from time to time, I'd use his 1 more if it didn't cause weird enemy invincibility glitches that require me to re-1 the enemy for them to be killed.

They fixed that actually, but they didn't fix pillar projectile made thralls not making pillars or the anti synergy with his pillars and 4.

Also the bug where clients pillars go away from other damage means is still in

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Madway7 said:

They fixed that actually

They did? I haven't tried Enthralling enemies since I ran into that bug, I'll have to give it a shot.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Oldskinzz said:

I don't mind a casting speed buff for revenant, it would help in QOL.

Strongly disagree with anyone calling him weak though. He's anything but weak. His 2 is one of the best tank skills in the game, he has a convenient health and shield heal with 3, and has one of the best damaging 4's around. 

His 2 is over rated AF. Charges based defense abilities do not work well when you’re surrounded by more enemies than you have charges. But since he does have his 2 why does his 3 prioritize healing over restoring charges? Why do you need it to synergize with a terrible ability to maintain his 2? That’s not productive design.

his 4 is really nice tho and I wish the rest of his kit followed in the same steps it did.

[nslay]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 2 is over rated AF. Charges based defense abilities do not work well when you’re surrounded by more enemies than you have charges. But since he does have his 2 why does his 3 prioritize healing over restoring charges? Why do you need it to synergize with a terrible ability to maintain his 2? That’s not productive design.

his 4 is really nice tho and I wish the rest of his kit followed in the same steps it did.

Keep in mind that you are not standing still. But even if you were, you'd have two good options in that situation: you use his 1 or his 4. 

The biggest reason why Mesmer Skin works substantially better than you expect is that most enemies in Warframe have very bad accuracy. Couple that with constant movement and he seldom ever gets hit. The things that do hit him tend to be things like Eximus fire blasts, stray grenades and stray Bombard missiles. I have no reason to lie to you. Otherwise, yes, Mesmer Skin would be as bad as you claim and imagine. And it is really bad against certain types of enemies for that reason. For example: Phase 1 Exploiter Orb, armed Grineer dropships in PoE. But these are a couple of the few exceptions! For Phase 1 Exploiter, you basically have to have 7+ stacks to tank its cannon while you toss Thermia on its vents. Almost every time you toss the Thermia, you need to recast Mesmer Skin. For PoE you use his 1 to temporarily direct fire away from you as you shoot the turret. 

I don't know man. I don't experience a lot of these problems you point out. The few things we agree on I think are actual design flaws: For example, his passive and use of overshields are at odds with how players use Revenant. Namely, players reliably keep his Mesmer Skin up at all times where shields don't do anything. Or his Reave gives allies one Mesmer Skin stack which doesn't seem useful or necessary.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Honestly, his 2 is a completely over rated tank ability

 

For good reason.  He's the only frame incapable of killing himself with self damage so long as he has charges.  His health isn't allowed to drop below 2 when he's got mesmer skin up.  Even oldkong would die to self damage with defy up.  It also means status procs basically mean nothing to him which is incredibly strong as it's the primary thing that kills most frames at higher end play.  It's basically a better god mode compared to old defy and he potentially never has to recast it again due to the synergy with Reave.  So it's "hype" is well deserved. (only strong counter to his skin being beam attacks.)

I'd be curious to hear what you think Mesmer skin's "glaring faults" are beyond making his passive incapable of proccing.

Edited July 11, 2019 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hey! Don’t go dissing Garuda and Baruuk. They do not deserve to be thrown under the same bus as Revenant.

Revenant really isn't bad if you set all the subjective statements aside.  Even his thralls are not bad.

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Garuda is a little clunky and has some serious micro management issues, but learning to play her rewards you with a very powerful and useful frame. Unlike Revenant who’s just hours of torment to understand and it’s not rewarding, just infuriating.

Objectively false.  His 2 and 3 keep him in the current best god mode state in the game atm and allow him to OHK nearly anything.  You already think his 4 is great.  His thralls Provide immense value.  Just not in the typical way.  Thralls draw aggro for you which helps you soft control the map better for allies.  Enthrall lets you cheese quite a bit of enemies that are normally not effected by other cc enemies.  He's probably the king of index because of this alone.  And in events like thermia or anything that has limited enemy spawns enthrall lets you abuse that.

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Baruuk wouldn’t be considered so bad IF DE BUFFED HIS ******** 4! Seriously, he’s a well put together frame that would stand as a unique and viable option if they didn’t make his 4 so unbearably useless against armor past level 100.

The only notable thing about Baruuk is his ability to stack DR sources.  Even if his 4 was made to properly kill things you still have a cruddy ability in the form of desolate hands and Elude is mostly set to the side because of the DR he has.  It's far easier and only slightly less optimal to spam his lull and desolate hands to drain your meter quickly compared to finding one of the 2 enemies in the game that elude is great against for burning meter.

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wisps 4 is also pretty stupidly held back. 1 damage tick per second on a narrow beam? Seriously? What’s the point of making this cool sun fueled laser people if you don’t give the players an incentive to use it? The rest of her kit is a good blend of support and utility.

Wisp's 4 makes up for its lack of damage in making her a CO melee monster as it lathers enemies in status procs.  So it's always useful.

12 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

From Khora to Wisp the only black sheep is Revenant. The frame that was screwed at the very start by someone’s selfish desire for a vampire frame. A decision that turned a great concept into the definitive example of how not to make a frame. The only thing that’s more infuriating than his botched creation is the fact that people can defend such an abomination claiming that it’s “very good” and “well designed” and “one of the best frames in the game”. Calling Revenant one of the best is an insult to all the frames that had actual thought put into their design to make them functional and fun that made them some of the best frames.

Setting aside your complaints that have zero to do with the frames mechanics itself there is very little that is actually wrong with Revenant.  The value his thralls give via killing them is poor.  The fact that he removes his own pillars so easily is a bummer.  Pillars made from thralls that you didn't make not propogating the enthrall effect is a bummer.  And his passive not really ever coming into play sucks.  But all of his abilities are solid that have good uses and don't particularly step on each other unlike say Baruuk.  If we were to argue concept to design flaws i'd say that Baruuk drops the ball here harder than revenant did.  Am I sick of Reb calling things vampires?  Sure.  Did I have a different idea in mind for a sentient frame?  Absolutely.  But i'm not going to knock an obviously strong frame over complaints like that.

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 2 is over rated AF. Charges based defense abilities do not work well when you’re surrounded by more enemies than you have charges. But since he does have his 2 why does his 3 prioritize healing over restoring charges? Why do you need it to synergize with a terrible ability to maintain his 2? That’s not productive design.

his 4 is really nice tho and I wish the rest of his kit followed in the same steps it did.

Considering not all enemies attack you at once that's not a very strong argument.  The game is hardcoded to only have you be shot at by no more than 3-4? enemies at a time.  The only attack that ignore this is melee.  If you don't believe me go to the simulacrum and spawn in a lot of heavy gunners and observe how only a few shoot at you at a time.  (I chose this enemy because they have long firing cycles thus making it easier to showcase the limit in play.)

I don't see how his reave prioritizes healing over charges.  AFAIK you get both if you can get both.  Unlike Atlas's rubble mechanic where rubble will absolutely not give you more armor if the rubble is capable of healing you.  Reave isn't bad.  It might be a bit costly but really the only poor thing about it is that you move in a straight line like zypher's tail wind.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I used to rag on Revenant a lot but i've since changed my opinion about him.  He's very good.  I do wish some of the "clunk" in his kit was taken care of like his casting speed or his enthrall bug(s).  But honestly he gets more flak then he really deserves.  Most of the complaints given about him are massively subjective (and yes I used to echo those complaints.)  It really just stems down into people wanting something else out of a sentient themed frame.  I pretty much use him to brain dead survive things like I did with oldkong.  Or exploit the hell out of his enthrall mechanic.  (it made the thermia fractures event stupid easy to solo.)

I do kind of wish he was capable of having a thrall army or making a group of thralls at once though.

[Neightrix]

IMO most of his shortcomings have to do with the energy consumption of his 4. It really needs to have low initial energy consumption like Hysteria, especially considering you're also burning energy on Reave for mobility.

Mesmer Skin is completely overrated or underrated depending on who you ask. Some players assume any tanking ability should allow you to play braindead and ignore incoming damage - but in practice it's quite good if you're willing to engage with the game, especially if you build for strength.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

On 2019-07-10 at 9:17 AM, JohnLemon123 said:

his 3 requires you to reach 250% strength to be effective, which itself requires blind rage AND transient fortitude. the former then forces you to use fleeting expertise (as his 4 is insanely pricy), while the latter, in addition to the aforementioned FE, now needs you to run primed continuity. however, thanks to his 4's energy cost and his other abilities relying on duration, you now need narrow minded AND a stretch mod to offset it (since range is no longer a hollow stat thanks to it affecting his 3), and a primed flow, thanks (again) to his 4 costing as much as it does. with the last two spaces being reserved for the speed mods, that's the entire frame completed.

Describing the mods as "mandatory" is simply lousy, they are only obligatory to oneshot enthralled enemies with reave.

Aside from that, the casting speed needing an improvement does sounds necessary, specially for Reave, and heck even Mesmer skin, but Reave definitely has a long windup time to not have the fastest speed in the world.

Enthrall however I don't see much problem since it's a 0 to 25 energy cost ability that lives on for a long duration.

[JohnLemon123]

17 minutes ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Describing the mods as "mandatory" is simply lousy, they are only obligatory to oneshot enthralled enemies with reave.

Aside from that, the casting speed needing an improvement does sounds necessary, specially for Reave, and heck even Mesmer skin, but Reave definitely has a long windup time to not have the fastest speed in the world.

Enthrall however I don't see much problem since it's a 0 to 25 energy cost ability that lives on for a long duration.

Thing is, Reave only becomes a truly valuable option once that specific cap is reached, which itself requires both of these mods to be reached reliably. 

As I said before, I could understand if DE wants to keep mesmer skin's cast time as lengthy as it currently is, if only to deter you from simply recasting it while completely ignoring Reave. 

The problem with Enthrall is mainly that it's casting time prevents you from converting many enemies rapidly (which is something revenant is built around). This creates the problem of friendly fire undermining your efforts, as the group of enemies you may have spent several seconds building up gets evaporated by an ally, rendering the whole process frustrating. As such, making it cast faster would allow you to create far more allies (or resources) way more efficiently, resulting in the friendly fire being less of an annoyance. 

Or, they could give Enthrall the banish treatment, and have each cast convert multiple enemies in an aoe, that'd also work. He just... Needs to be more efficient at what he does! 

[Oldskinzz]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

His 2 is over rated AF. Charges based defense abilities do not work well when you’re surrounded by more enemies than you have charges. But since he does have his 2 why does his 3 prioritize healing over restoring charges? Why do you need it to synergize with a terrible ability to maintain his 2? That’s not productive design.

his 4 is really nice tho and I wish the rest of his kit followed in the same steps it did.

With 300% ability strength you get 18 charges. 18. How often do you get more than 18 enemies shooting at you at once? Plus it's not difficult to recast with a 50 cost. And the added advantage is, you can simply recast it anytime to refresh your charges without waiting for the charges to run out completely unlike rhinos iron skin. 

It's "overrated" for a good reason. With it up, you simply cannot die. It's cheap to cast and easy to refresh. And for good measure it stuns whatever attacks you. 

Sure his 3 isn't necessary most of the time with his 2 up. You can make use of the synergy with 1 to regain mesmer charges but overall it's just easier most of the time to recast 2. That doesn't make it bad, it does come in handy sometimes when 2 drops unnoticed.