Please do not cave on Nightwave.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

This season is much tamer than last season due to feedback, and I'm concerned about next season.  I want Nightwave to reward us for going and doing stuff, which seems antithetical to many voices on the forums.

Over the course of my time reading Nightwave complaints for the season on both Reddit and the forums, including serious replies to threads that were originally jokes, I've found complaints about the following challenges:

Bullet jumping.

Complete X sorties.

The Profit Taker.

The Ropalolyst.

Silver Grove.

Gilding.

Formaing.

Invasions.

Syndicate missions.

Capture missions.

Synthesizing Simaris targets.

Lua puzzle rooms.

30 minutes of survival.

20 waves of defense.

Animal captures.

Fishing.

Mining.

Bounties.

And amusingly, I've noticed some people coming out of the woodwork who extol the virtues of the alert system, how earning 10,000 credits for a level 10 exterminate was rewarding or Nitain being available only at certain hours was fine.

There are just certain people who do not want to actually do anything in your game.  At some point, please cut off the hyperbolic shrieks from your actionable feedback.

I have a newer player in my clan, and I'm helping another clan of new players.  None of them want everything in the game handed to them, none of them have had complaints about Nightwave.  Almost all the complaints I've seen are from self-described veterans who should have no issue completing this content.

Please, do not cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

A voice of reason. Well said Tenno.

[--NPB-Zebaz--]

To be honest the only challenges that annoy me are gilding (this one has been removed) and formaing stuff, the rest of the challenges are easy and can be done trough the entire week. 
 

[LSG501]

Now look at those 'challenges' as someone who has no reason to actually do them because they've already got everything they drop and if it has standing we're at max standing....

I'll just quote your list for ease here but let me explain some of the reasoning behind our complaints... I'm mr27, have pretty much all the stuff (at least what I want anyway) in game, have 4 syndicates maxed out (and everything from them), maxed out on fortuna syndicates (all 3), maxed out on 1 of the PoE (quills is low again but not a fan of eidolons so will get there when I get there), cephalon symaris is on it's way to be maxed again after buying the 2 new items....

• Bullet jumping. - no real issue, we do that anyway
• Complete X sorties. - ok, but sorties become a little tiresome if all we're getting is ayatan sculptures
• The Profit Taker. - fine but most of us are done and dusted with that part of the game.... only reason for me to go back is to try for the 3% drop chance on the bloodshed sigil...
• The Ropalolyst. - been there done that and got everything but it's a quick mission so no real issue
• Silver Grove. - wouldn't be an issue if helios scanned the plants etc (hint hint DE, we keep asking for this)
• Gilding. - wasting resources and time when we've already done it
• Formaing. - same as above, it's fine if we have something to add forma to but not when we don't we're just wasting forma.
• Invasions. - not hard but time consuming and we don't actually have a reason to go back to do them once we have everything
• Syndicate missions. - basically the only benefit from this is stockpiling syndicate medallians for when we buy relic packs
• Capture missions. - no real issue, quick and easy
• Synthesizing Simaris targets. - it's ok but kind of pointless when we're at max standing
• Lua/derelict puzzle rooms. - been there done that syndrome
• 30 minutes of survival. - tedious, it's not a challenge, even 60 minutes isn't really a challenge, it's just boring to do for a lot of us.
• 20 waves of defense. - as above really
• Animal captures. - animal captures are ok to a point, the new 'different' captures is an issue though, I wasted 3 captures because I caught same rng animal from a different location...
• Fishing. - not hard but we don't really have much use for them
• Mining. - time consuming finding the rng generated 'rare' ores.
• Bounties. - it's the 'different' part again.  It actually makes it take longer

Essentially the issue boils down to the fact that there is no real reason for us to go back to a lot of these locations because there is nothing there for us to go there for and we'd rather be doing something that actually benefits us.  The challenges are fine for newbies who can do all the missions (that's a different issue) and have a reason to do them but some of us are just not interested/bored/finished with parts of the game and in a way it feels like DE is using the 'challenges' as a way to inflate player participation in dead parts of the game rather than adding in a reason for us to go back in the first place.

Edited July 30, 2019 by LSG501

[Xzorn]

I don't think Nightwave is going anywhere.

Players want Nightwave Challenges not Chores. Rivens have more interesting challenges.

Nightwave is 50% participation Gold Star and 50% redundant content. Literally every single item you listed here is a waste of both my time and resources in otherwise dead content. That's the problem most people have with Nightwave. See a lot of us have indeed played the game. Played those things for years in fact and going back with no changes to the content itself doesn't feel very good. Challenge is mostly impossible in Warframe anyways but they could at least make it more interesting.

The best Nightwave task is probably the Index one. Not hard at all but makes you do something different than normal.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Now look at those 'challenges' as someone who has no reason to actually do them because they've already got everything they drop and if it has standing we're at max standing....

I have 2200 hours logged in my in game statistics.  I am mastery rank 27, every weapon I use is formaed and the majority of my favorites have rivens.  The majority of what I do in game is farming platinum or doing stuff I don't need to farm because I enjoy it.  I do not have to imagine.

4 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Essentially the issue boils down to the fact that there is no real reason for us to go back to a lot of these locations because there is nothing there for us to go there for and we'd rather be doing something that actually benefits us.

There are two reasons I go back:

1:  What's the point of getting everything if I don't use it?  I continue to fight the Profit Taker with more Warframes, run long survivals, take Nidus to flex in Infested Salvage, enjoy bounties in PoE remastered, etc because that's the point.  I enjoy playing this game.

2:  I am, in fact, rewarded.  Completing these challenges gives me Nightwave standing.

[Drachnyn]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

Gilding

I agree with your post for the most part, I am however glad they took out the gild one thing weekly. As someone who has every bit of mastery from gilded weapons/moas this was a complete waste. With how strong Zaws and Kitguns are I dont think they need the additional nightwave incentive for newer players either. Removing this specific one from the weekly rotation was a good thing in my opinion. I never liked leveling something just to throw it away.

vor 21 Minuten schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

Bounties.

This one is heavily flawed in my opinion. I think it would be much better if it were a certain number of bounty stages so we had a choice in which bounty to do it. For example if it were 15 bounty stages we wouldnt be restricted to the low level ones if we care about doing the weeklies quickly.

vor 25 Minuten schrieb (PS4)BenHeisennberg:

30 minutes of survival.

20 waves of defense.

I am not a big fan of these, they are no where near as bad as in season 1 tho. I just do them as relic missions now so I actually get something of value.  Kuva survival seems like more of a waste to me since the Kuva gain from there is really low and almost not worth it.

[Autongnosis]

il y a 11 minutes, Hawk_of_the_Reborn a dit :

Thank you so much for this. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's getting real sick of seeing the forums being flooded by "REEEEEEEEEEE this is too hard!" when it's just a challenge that says "Launch game: 1,000 standing"

I just wish there were alternate challenges to tackle instead of the boring ass "do 10 nightmares", "do 9 invasions", "do x bounties" etc. 

All these things have no replay value other than maybe taveuni/mot nightmare which are more fun than the base ones. If i could do, say, one hour survival, a tricap in place of those i would be happy

[LSG501]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

1:  What's the point of getting everything if I don't use it?  I continue to fight the Profit Taker with more Warframes, run long survivals, take Nidus to flex in Infested Salvage, enjoy bounties in PoE remastered, etc because that's the point.  I enjoy playing this game.

2:  I am, in fact, rewarded.  Completing these challenges gives me Nightwave standing.

1 - but if we've already done it to death we're just going to take the easiest option to get it done because in the most simple terms we don't want to do it...

2 - the issue isn't getting nightwave standing from challenges, it's about the lack of doing something 'interesting' or 'beneficial' to get said nightwave standing as a 'side reward'. 

Nightwave challenges were supposed to be something we did while playing the game 'normally' not something that is 'forced' onto us like chores.  Remember we're going to get the exact same challenges over and over EVERY time we have a new nightwave, sometimes even in the same nightwave season.  In essence what long term players are complaining about now will be the same thing that current 'newbies' will be complaining about further down the line. 

Just look at the last 2 weeks, last week we had 10 nightmare, this week we had to do ANOTHER 3 nightmare missions....

Edited July 30, 2019 by LSG501

[Loza03]

Many of the Original challenges were a bit overtuned, and balancing should still be considered - notably, the original 60 minute challenge was more tedious than hard, and more hostile to players who couldn't invest time in big chunks like that.

But that's not a mark against Nightwave, since things can and have been rebalanced. It's now a 30 minute challenge, which requires far less of a 'block'.

With the exception of Gilding (which requires slots, which require plat), most of the 'already done with that content' complaints feel like they're missing the point. That point being to make old content less redundant by giving players another reason to do them.

 

Honestly? I think some players are spoiled by nukes, immortality and infinite CC that basically play the game for them. Not all, but enough

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

7 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

1 - but if we've already done it to death we're just going to take the easiest option to get it done because in the most simple terms we don't want to do it...

2 - the issue isn't getting nightwave standing from challenges, it's about the lack of doing something 'interesting' or 'beneficial' to get said nightwave standing as a 'side reward'. 

Nightwave challenges were supposed to be something we did while playing the game 'normally' not something that is 'forced' onto us like chores.  Remember we're going to get the exact same challenges over and over EVERY time we have a new nightwave, sometimes even in the same nightwave season.  In essence what long term players are complaining about now will be the same thing that current 'newbies' will be complaining about further down the line. 

Just look at the last 2 weeks, last week we had 10 nightmare, this week we had to do ANOTHER 3 nightmare missions....

1 - what about the players who have not been there, done that?

2 - like complaining about how 150 bullet jumps are too hard, or claiming you're being forced to do anything NW when in fact you choose not to do it and miss out on some of the nice rewards it has?

 

Work for it.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Hawk_of_the_Reborn

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

15 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I agree with your post for the most part, I am however glad they took out the gild one thing weekly. As someone who has every bit of mastery from gilded weapons/moas this was a complete waste. With how strong Zaws and Kitguns are I dont think they need the additional nightwave incentive for newer players either. Removing this specific one from the weekly rotation was a good thing in my opinion. I never liked leveling something just to throw it away.

This one is heavily flawed in my opinion. I think it would be much better if it were a certain number of bounty stages so we had a choice in which bounty to do it. For example if it were 15 bounty stages we wouldnt be restricted to the low level ones if we care about doing the weeklies quickly.

I am not a big fan of these, they are no where near as bad as in season 1 tho. I just do them as relic missions now so I actually get something of value.  Kuva survival seems like more of a waste to me since the Kuva gain from there is really low and almost not worth it.

 

13 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

I just wish there were alternate challenges to tackle instead of the boring ass "do 10 nightmares", "do 9 invasions", "do x bounties" etc. 

All these things have no replay value other than maybe taveuni/mot nightmare which are more fun than the base ones. If i could do, say, one hour survival, a tricap in place of those i would be happy

I definitely respect both of these comments.  Where I disagree with you, I see where you're coming from.  In particular, I have argued in favor of replacing challenges with harder ones by choice, like swapping out Silver Grove for the Hydrolyst or the original 1 hour survival.

Additionally:

11 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Just look at the last 2 weeks, last week we had 10 nightmare, this week we had to do ANOTHER 3 nightmare missions....

They probably shouldn't stack the same challenge on back to back weeks.  These challenges should be given in variety, that's part of the system's strength.

My post is born out of frustration with the constant push across all media platforms, where devs read their feedback, to essentially reduce Nightwave to nothing.  If devs even listened to half of the complaints, Nightwave's current kid gloves would be mittens.

Edited July 30, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[Autongnosis]

il y a 7 minutes, (PS4)BenHeisennberg a dit :

I definitely respect both of these comments.  Where I disagree with you, I see where you're coming from.  In particular, I have argued in favor of replacing challenges with harder ones by choice, like swapping out Silver Grove for the Hydrolyst or the original 1 hour survival.

Yeah that's what i meant precisely. I wouldn't want to force everyone to do them, but at the same time I'd rather not waste my time in unentertaining stuff like that either. Making it choice based would be best tbh. 

[LSG501]

11 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

1 - what about the players who have not been there, done that?

2 - like complaining about how 150 bullet jumps are too hard, or claiming you're being forced to do anything NW when in fact you choose not to do it and miss out on some of the nice rewards it has?

 

Work for it.

you know it would be nice if you read the whole thread before commenting on something because believe it or not you might actually get some context to the post you're replying to.... not to mention I already covered your reply in my very first post in this thread...

[LSG501]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

They probably shouldn't stack the same challenge on back to back weeks.  These challenges should be given in variety, that's part of the system's strength.

My post is born out of frustration with the constant push across all media platforms, where devs read their feedback, to essentially reduce Nightwave to nothing.  If devs even listened to half of the complaints, Nightwave's current kid gloves would be mittens. 

If we don't 'complain' about poorly thought out nightwave 'challenges' we'll continue to get the poorly thought out system we have now.  The long term players are just seeing things that newbies will see later on at a much earlier stage and DE needs to get on top of it early on or the cycle of complaints will just move to the 'current' newbies when they get to the point where they themselves have 'everything' and no reason to do the challenges we're complaining about now.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

1 minute ago, Autongnosis said:

Yeah that's what i meant precisely. I wouldn't want to force everyone to do them, but at the same time I'd rather not waste my time in unentertaining stuff like that either. Making it choice based would be best tbh. 

I'm with you there.  The problem in discussions surrounding challenge swapping is the people who want challenge options for "accessibility" purposes.  They're challenges.  Swapping it out should also step up the difficulty.

That change wouldn't be a further nerf to Nightwave, it would be giving Nightwave teeth for the people who want it.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

If we don't 'complain' about poorly thought out nightwave 'challenges' we'll continue to get the poorly thought out system we have now.  The long term players are just seeing things that newbies will see later on at a much earlier stage and DE needs to get on top of it early on or the cycle of complaints will just move to the 'current' newbies when they get to the point where they themselves have 'everything' and no reason to do the challenges we're complaining about now.

I already addressed this.  There is a reward for doing Nightwave challenges:  Nightwave offerings.  Currently, Nightwave is the only persistent way for veterans to earn new stuff between expansions to the game.

You weren't earning anything new anyway if you're with me and completed the game.  If you like the gameplay, this is just another nudge to go do things.  If you don't, and all Warframe has for you is getting more stuff to not go back and do anything with, that's a separate issue.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

12 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

you know it would be nice if you read the whole thread before commenting on something because believe it or not you might actually get some context to the post you're replying to.... not to mention I already covered your reply in my very first post in this thread...

My reply was directed only to that which I quoted, that's it

[LSG501]

13 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

My reply was directed only to that which I quoted, that's it

and my reply is directed at the fact you replied without reading the rest of the thread which would have saved you even needing to reply....

Edited July 30, 2019 by LSG501

[LSG501]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I already addressed this.  There is a reward for doing Nightwave challenges:  Nightwave offerings.  Currently, Nightwave is the only persistent way for veterans to earn new stuff between expansions to the game. 

You weren't earning anything new anyway if you're with me and completed the game.  If you like the gameplay, this is just another nudge to go do things.  If you don't, and all Warframe has for you is getting more stuff to not go back and do anything with, that's a separate issue. 

There are other ways of adding new content into the game than making us repeat the same existing unchanged content over and over... we've just had new game modes added for example, we've just had a new 'mini boss' in the ropa that has literally 5 mods and wisp as it's reward table....and that's ignoring the idea of 'better challenges' full stop.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

There are other ways of adding new content into the game than making us repeat the same existing unchanged content over and over... we've just had new game modes added for example, we've just had a new 'mini boss' in the ropa that has literally 5 mods and wisp as it's reward table....and that's ignoring the idea of 'better challenges' full stop.

Oh yeah, the Ropalolyst's drops are pitiful.  But we would earn everything it drops anyway, and most of us would have done so by now if they were available on release.

They aren't going to expand the game as fast as we can clear it.  With this system, we are rewarded for going back to other stuff with Nightwave offerings.

[LSG501]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

With this system, we are rewarded for going back to other stuff with Nightwave offerings.

Going back and doing the same existing unchanged content, that for high level player (and we all get to this point at some stage) is unnecessary to do, over and over can only last so long before players just say screw it and not bother with nightwave... some players have already done that and if DE wants nightwave to not be another wasted addition to the game they need to look at the issues before people just start ignoring nightwave. 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

They aren't going to expand the game as fast as we can clear it. 

That is an inherent flaw with the way DE design new content, instead of designing with keeping the player coming back in mind they keep releasing content that can be 'completed' which then causes the issues of players complaining about lack of content etc.

Edited July 30, 2019 by LSG501

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Going back and doing the same existing unchanged content, that for high level player (and we all get to this point at some stage) is unnecessary to do, over and over can only last so long before players just say screw it and not bother with nightwave... some players have already done that and if DE wants nightwave to not be another wasted addition to the game they need to look at the issues before people just start ignoring nightwave. 

That is an inherent flaw with the way DE design new content, instead of designing with keeping the player coming back in mind they keep releasing content that can be 'completed' which then causes the issues of players complaining about lack of content etc.

I'd like to see an example of a game with infinite reward items to earn.  Unless you're suggesting Warframe implement a prestige system.

I think the issue here is that you do not enjoy the game at base, and that it's not the missions you enjoy, but earning new stuff.  And Nightwave's rewards aren't enough for you to go back.

Again, that's a separate issue.

[Ham_Grenabe]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

Nightwave challenges were supposed to be something we did while playing the game 'normally' not something that is 'forced' onto us like chores.  Remember we're going to get the exact same challenges over and over EVERY time we have a new nightwave, sometimes even in the same nightwave season.  In essence what long term players are complaining about now will be the same thing that current 'newbies' will be complaining about further down the line. 

Just look at the last 2 weeks, last week we had 10 nightmare, this week we had to do ANOTHER 3 nightmare missions....

The thing is, veterans don't play the game normally. 

Nightmares, starchart missions, outdoor tileset stuff -- that is normal play. The game is designed around that. Veterans don't do that. We do some assortment of sorties, occasional void fissures, endurance runs, and boss farming. We're not normal players. 

The bottom line is, Nightwave offers specific rewards inaccessible through other means. If you want them, then you do nightwave. It's the same grind as anything else in the game - you do boring S#&$ to get something you might use. 

[LSG501]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

I'd like to see an example of a game with infinite reward items to earn.  Unless you're suggesting Warframe implement a prestige system.

I think the issue here is that you do not enjoy the game at base, and that it's not the missions you enjoy, but earning new stuff.  And Nightwave's rewards aren't enough for you to go back.

Again, that's a separate issue.

You do realise you can enjoy the game and still see the issues which it has right...