Is DE starting to turn in the direction of P2W?

[nslay]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

1. Its irrelevant to the topic because it has nothing in common with warframe. 2.It has items locked behind payed DLC so in a sense it is P2W. 3. Its B2P game in the first place and not live service F2P one

Thats why your comparison is stupid and all your points irrelevant. Stop embarrassing yourself any further. 

It has a character class locked behind a DLC. It does not come with weapons, mods, plat (which doesn't exist in D3), boosters, etc...

[kuciol]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

It has a character class locked behind a DLC. It does not come with weapons, mods, plat (which doesn't exist in D3), boosters, etc...

Whole class is locked. Imagine Mesa being locked behind pay wall with no alternatives. D3 operates on classes, not mods and weapons. They get full sets through story progression so class you pick is the most relevant thing. Also the point you quoted was directed at Skyrim guy that has no clue how stupid his comparisson is.

Edited September 6, 2019 by kuciol

[nslay]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Whole class is locked. Imagine Mesa being locked behind pay wall with no alternatives. D3 operates on classes, not mods and weapons. They get full sets through story progression so class you pick is the most relevant thing. Also the point you quoted was directed to Skyrim guy that has no clue how stupid his comparisson is.

The Necro was actually supposed to be part of a 2nd Diablo 3 expansion. The first expansion introduced the Crusader... Which also comes with no game changing perks, like weapons, mods, boosters, resources, etc...

In fact, beyond community events, the concepts of game play advantages like boosters does not even exist in Diablo 3.

[kuciol]

Just now, nslay said:

The Necro was actually supposed to be part of a 2nd Diablo 3 expansion. The first expansion introduced the Crusader... Which also comes with no game changing perks, like weapons, mods, boosters, resources, etc...

In fact, beyond community events, the concepts of game play advantages like boosters does not even exist in Diablo 3.

I dont care what it supposed to be, it is what it is. In diablo they could be P2W because the gameplay loop is different , you have competitive ladders and season resets. Warframe has none of it and gathering resources or lvl up things is far from being to long (i can lvl any weapon from 1 - 30 in a single exterminate mission with or without a booster). There is also easy access to them without spending a dime so not P2W in any way, shape or form.

[nslay]

6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I dont care what it supposed to be, it is what it is. In diablo they could be P2W because the gameplay loop is different , you have competitive ladders and season resets. Warframe has none of it and gathering resources or lvl up things is far from being to long (i can lvl any weapon from 1 - 30 in a single exterminate mission with or without a booster). There is also easy access to them without spending a dime so not P2W in any way, shape or form.

I'm sorry to contradict you, but Warframe has the same PVE leaderboards as Diablo 3... For example, you can look at the leaderboard for Mot Survival. Thankfully, DE obfuscates the existence of these leaderboards while the GR leaderboard is a centerpiece of Diablo 3.

[kuciol]

Just now, nslay said:

I'm sorry to contradict you, but Warframe has the same PVE leaderboards as Diablo 3... For example, you can look at the leaderboard for Mot Survival. Thankfully, DE obfuscates the existence of these leaderboards while the GR leaderboard is a centerpiece of Diablo 3.

Booster dont help with that do they? Point still stands, you are not pressured in any way to shell out money. 

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Booster dont help with that do they? Point still stands, you are not pressured in any way to shell out money. 

While I agree with you and I certainly don't feel pressured to buy boosters, I am sure someone might feel pressured to buy, say, an affinity booster to help each MR 12 faster to use Rubico Prime in Eidolons... Or farm focus faster?

Personally, this doesn't bother me. But the Diablo 3 community wouldn't have it. They are so picky!

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

While I agree with you and I certainly don't feel pressured to buy boosters, I am sure someone might feel pressured to buy, say, an affinity booster to help each MR 12 faster to use Rubico Prime in Eidolons... Or farm focus faster?

Personally, this doesn't bother me. But the Diablo 3 community wouldn't have it. They are so picky!

They are not picky, they even argued about RMAH being a good thing... They were also ok with Necro DLC, something that other games give out for free. Wanting something is not equal to being pressured. Again , you can get any weapon from 1 to 30 in a single exterminate mission. Its not even hard. 

[nslay]

Just now, kuciol said:

They are not picky, they even argued about RMAH being a good thing... They were also ok with Necro DLC, something that other games give out for free. Wanting something is not equal to being pressured. Again , you can get any weapon from 1 to 30 in a single exterminate mission. Its not even hard. 

A lot of them argued it was also a bad thing. But that's mostly because of stupid things Blizzard did like make it ridiculously hard to find legendaries to get people to use RMAH. Blizzard also didn't police 3rd party sites and bots effectively. Basically, everything DE does mostly right... DE is a shining example that RMAH could co-exist with reasonable drop rates.

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

A lot of them argued it was also a bad thing. But that's mostly because of stupid things Blizzard did like make it ridiculously hard to find legendaries to get people to use RMAH. Blizzard also didn't police 3rd party sites and bots effectively. Basically, everything DE does mostly right... DE is a shining example that RMAH could co-exist with reasonable drop rates.

Its not about drop rates, its about the differences in itemization in both games. Auction house of any kind would be super bad in warframe but thats discussion for another topic.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

The Diablo series has no roleplaying in it whatsoever, it's just a hack-and-slash action game where you upgrade your stats and gear.

Elder Scrolls is a bit better, but roleplaying opportunities are generally limited to the occasional persuasion check, which allows you to get what you want immediately instead of having to do a minor fetch quest. In Skyrim, the only major roleplaying choices are whether to join the Empire or the Stormcloaks and whether to kill Paarthurnax or not. There's generally no way to refuse quests, the game just keeps giving them to you at every turn with the expectation that you're going to want to finish all of them. Heck, you can't even avoid joining the mages guild, since the main quest requires you to go in, and there's no "I don't want to join, I'm just here to talk to your librarian" dialogue option. And sure, you can just ignore quests you don't want to do, but that's not the same as refusing them. They'll still be marked incomplete in your journal, the NPCs in the college will forever stand around waiting for you to show up for your first lesson, etc.; the game will not acknowledge your refusal. You could say roleplaying happens in your head, not in the game, so the game doesn't need to acknowledge your choice, but then literally any game could be called an RPG, because you can always imagine things happening that don't exist in the game regardless of what kind of game you're playing. The game giving you choices and acknowledging your decision is what makes an RPG.

Incidentally, this is why WF isn't an RPG. Roleplaying choices in WF are limited to a handful of quests with very simple black/grey/white choices that have no consequences beyond the cutscene they happen in.

The others I haven't played, so I can't comment much, but I would be very surprised if they were any different.

I'm doubtful you can credibly speak for that man, and his opinion doesn't really matter to me anyway. The inventor of the .gif file format thinks it should be pronounced "jif"; I wasn't persuaded by that, I don't see why I should be by this.

Legendary, ancient, primal? I'm a bit lost myself now.

Not to such a degree. Diablo 1 only had seven equipment slots, one or two magic affixes per item drawn from a very limited pool of possible affixes, unique items with fixed stats, and no crafting system of any kind. It seems to me ARPG devs think that making a better ARPG means making the systems more and more complex, giving items more and more stats with more and more possible affixes, thereby increasing the role of RNG, thereby decreasing the percentage of usable items in drops. It's gone so far that modern ARPGs include elaborate item filters, because 99.9% of items that drop are complete garbage not even worth picking up. Needless to say I think this design philosophy is misguided.

Not all opinions are created equal.

I guess that depends on your definition of "easily". Also, there's more to fun than difficulty. Just because something's easy doesn't mean it's not tedious, and that also kills the fun.

Actually they all have roleplaying, because you get inserted into a role that isnt reality. Just as pen and paper rpgs where you play through a story heavily influenced by the GM, hopefully one that doesnt run a too meta campaign and lets you have some free choices aswell. With your reasoning no game is an rpg. I'm starting to get how you can see p2w everywhere because your definitions of long standing terms are flarked up beyond recognition.

WF is very much an RPG in the veins of Diablo, Torchlight, PoE and others. We can even chill out, sit down and just pull of a riff, or go grind some pipes on our hoverboard. Not to mention our complete freedom to design out ship as we want. The others mentioned are similar to WoW. Or now suddenly WoW isnt an rpg either? Yeesh man, you're really tripping. You just lost all credibility.

Yes I can speak for him since I've followed him since he was part of the original Blizzard. Missed out on Hellgate because I was playing MMOs at the time and didnt really have time for D2 either. Followed him for years during his time on Marvel Heroes where he and his wife loved to stream and shoot the S#&$. He is more or less the allfather of the arpg genre, without him it would have never been a thing or the evolution of it we see today. It doesnt matter if it matters to you or not, because your ideas are simply fringe thoughts on already established terms and genres.

Yes, those 3. I still dont know what you refered to with your "No, no they cant" or whatever you said. Do you even know what you were refering to?

Things change over time. When Diablo came it was state of the art and set the foundation for the genre. They wanted a more complex system at the time even, but there simply wasnt a way to get it to work with the tech available at the time. Hence why those ideas were saved for D2 when the tech and resources were there to turn the idea to life.

All opinions are equal, especially when it comes to what you like or not. Or do you somehow think your opinion weighs more? Fook man, grow the heck up then.

Farming for materials or currency is tedious no matter the game.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

 

I said it already, but the Diablo 3 community would never tolerate most of the microtransactions Warframe has. You can argue Prime Access being akin to a DLC (i.e. as if Warframes are synonymous to character classes), but boosters, lenses, etc... almost every Diablo 3 player will call that P2W. And when I mention good experiences about Warframe? They always dig up the new player packages on Warframe.com that cost money and call that P2W (and they're not completely wrong).

Also, aside of the isometric perspective, Diablo 3 and Warframe are extremely similar! To not see this hints that you are not familiar with one or both of these games. They're both loot hunters, they're both horde killers, both have notions of character classes with abilities (Character Classes vs Warframes), they both have character progression (Paragon+Caldesann's Despair vs Focus+Forma), they both have rare item-supercharging items (Ramaladni's Gift vs Reactors/Catalysts), they both have customizable weapons (Weapons with RNG attributes with one attribute re-rollable by Mystic vs Weapons + Mods), they both have re-rollable weapon attributes (Kanai's Cube's Law of Kulle vs Riven re-rolls), they both have infinitely scaling content (Greater Rifts vs Endless missions), they both have transmutation (Kanai's Cube's upgrade rare item vs Mod transmutation).

Lastly, they both share many of the same problems! Well gee... because they're similar!

- Warframe has a Meta and only certain frames, weapons and mods are really useful and powerful <---> Diablo 3 has a Meta and only certain character classes, items and item attributes are really useful and powerful.

- Warframe has severe power creep due to fans demanding more power <---> Diablo 3 has severe power creep due to fans demanding more power.

 

Warframe actually does a lot of things right that Diablo 3 got wrong... For all of Diablo 3's simplicity, I actually think Warframe is easier and more enjoyable (definitely ridiculously easier to farm for many things). If you'd like, I can tell you the things Warframe does better!

People like just refuse to be wrong and will say the craziest things like it is some type of proof. You so far off the point, I don't why I'm even responding. You just too left behind to get right. I know this is likely not to help you, but still. . .

You do realize that Diablo 3 FORCES you to buy the Reaper of Souls expansion If you want to play higher difficulties and unlock torments which is where all players play. You MUST BUY the expansion to get deaths breath to reroll gear and btw ALL GEAR STATS UN DIABLO 3 ARE RNG BASED. Even the best gear which are primals have 0.2% drop rate plus locked in content you need the expansion to access. In Warframe , mods so you EXACTLY THE STATS YOU GET outside of Rivens (which you DO NOT NEED) . Everyone has access to achieve the same builds. You MUST BUY Diablo expansion to get paragon levels that add to your every stat, especially attack and defense strength. You can't play past torment  1 without paragon levels.  You MUST BUY the expansion get primals, transmute items, to unlock kanai's cube to slot 3 extra powers, to use higher level gems. You MUST BUY expansion in order to play 95% of Diablo 3 content, to have a chance at leaderboards, or to even finish seasons and get season rewards. Diablo 3 doesn't even begin until you reach lv 70.  Every single thing you spoke about you literally MUST BUY THE EXPANSION to get. Basically, if you don't have expansion, throw the game out. 

Diablo players went crazy about this and soooooo many players quit because they already bought the base game but the real game was locked behind Reaper of Souls expansion paywall. 

On top of everything,  the necromancer is extremely powerful. You can hit lv 70 in a new season in under 2 hours with necromancer. Some of the highest leaderboard scores are necro users. You need the Necromancer expansion as well..

If Diablo 3 players could free trade trash gear items to get primals or death breaths or weapon skins or any bounty resources, there would be love letters written on Blizzard forums daily. 

 

What does Warframe FORCE you to buy? Absolutely nothing. If items don't drop for you,  trading is an option to get those items. NO GAMEPLAY or GAME PROGRESSION is locked behind paywall in Warframe. 

Diablo 3 is PAY to PLAY, pay to advance, pay to reach higher levels to even find a team to play with. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip
Clarity. Reaper of Souls expasion in place of Necromancer expansion.

[nslay]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

People like just refuse to be wrong and will say the craziest things like it is some type of proof. You so far off the point, I don't why I'm even responding. You just too left behind to get right. I know this is likely not to help you, but still. . .

You do realize that Diablo 3 FORCES you to buy the necromancer expansion If you want to play higher difficulties and unlock torments which is where all players play. You MUST BUY the expansion to get deaths breath to reroll gear and btw ALL GEAR STATS UN DIABLO 3 ARE RNG BASED. Even the best gear which are primals have 0.2% drop rate plus locked in content you need the expansion to access. In Warframe , mods so you EXACTLY THE STATS YOU GET outside of Rivens (which you DO NOT NEED) . Everyone has access to achieve the same builds. You MUST BUY Diablo expansion to get paragon levels that add to your every stat, especially attack and defense strength. You can't play past torment  1 without paragon levels.  You MUST BUY the expansion get primals, transmute items, to unlock kanai's cube to slot 3 extra powers, to use higher level gems. You MUST BUY expansion in order to play 95% of Diablo 3 content, to have a chance at leaderboards, or to even finish seasons and get season rewards. Diablo 3 doesn't even begin until you reach lv 70.  Every single thing you spoke about you literally MUST BUY THE EXPANSION to get. Basically, if you don't have expansion, throw the game out. 

Diablo players went crazy about this and soooooo many players quit because they already bought the base game but the real game was locked behind Necromancer expansion paywall. 

On top of everything,  the necromancer is extremely powerful. You can hit lv 70 in a new season in under 2 hours with necromancer. Some of the highest leaderboard scores are necro users.

If Diablo 3 players could free trade trash gear items to get primals or death breaths or weapon skins or any bounty resources, there would be love letters written on Blizzard forums daily. 

 

What does Warframe FORCE you to buy? Absolutely nothing. If items don't drop for you,  trading is an option to get those items. NO GAMEPLAY or GAME PROGRESSION is locked behind paywall in Warframe. 

Diablo 3 is PAY to PLAY, pay to advance, pay to reach higher levels to even find a team to play with. 

You could always just use Wizard (my favorite class!) which is one of the defacto RG killers right now. You never needed Necromancer! You're definitely not forced to buy the Necromancer DLC and you can definitely reach those GR levels with Wizard. So no, a game with 0 microtransactions and an audience rabidly against game enhancing microtransactions can take you far with a character class available since day 1. Definitely not pay to advance... That's absurd!  I also would not even claim that many or even some quit over the DLC...  Players were angrier about how the Necromancer plays than with buying the DLC in the first place! 

But you're right that you need RoS. That's for sure! RoS is basically a different game to Vanilla.

Primals, on the other hand, are not actually a necessity! They are just perfect versions of Ancient weapons and a well-rolled Ancient is not that hard to get. It's probably as hard as getting a prime weapon from relics.

[kuciol]

Just now, nslay said:

You could always just use Wizard (my favorite class!) which is one of the defacto RG killers right now. You never needed Necromancer! You're definitely not forced to buy the Necromancer DLC and you can definitely reach those GR levels with Wizard. So no, a game with 0 microtransactions and an audience rabidly against game enhancing microtransactions can take you far with a character class available since day 1. Definitely not pay to advance... That's absurd!  I also would not even claim that many or even some quit over the DLC...  Players were angrier about how the Necromancer plays than with buying the DLC in the first place! 

But you're right that you need RoS. That's for sure! RoS is basically a different game to Vanilla.

Primals, on the other hand, are not actually a necessity! They are just perfect versions of Ancient weapons and a well-rolled Ancient is not that hard to get. It's probably as hard as getting a prime weapon from relics.

Exept there was a season where top 200 was like 90% Necro. If you didnt shell out money you lost.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Exept there was a season where top 200 was like 90% Necro. If you didnt shell out money you lost.

And then they buffed Wizard, woo! But yeah, the Star Pact build is not fun to play and neither is the RG killer Necro with that two minute cooldown LotD. Yuck!

 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

15 minutes ago, nslay said:

You could always just use Wizard (my favorite class!) which is one of the defacto RG killers right now. You never needed Necromancer! You're definitely not forced to buy the Necromancer DLC and you can definitely reach those GR levels with Wizard. So no, a game with 0 microtransactions and an audience rabidly against game enhancing microtransactions can take you far with a character class available since day 1. Definitely not pay to advance... That's absurd!  I also would not even claim that many or even some quit over the DLC...  Players were angrier about how the Necromancer plays than with buying the DLC in the first place! 

But you're right that you need RoS. That's for sure! RoS is basically a different game to Vanilla.

Primals, on the other hand, are not actually a necessity! They are just perfect versions of Ancient weapons and a well-rolled Ancient is not that hard to get. It's probably as hard as getting a prime weapon from relics.

Don't worry,  i just edited it. Its been so long, I forgot they offered necromancer separately from Reaper of souls. Thanks for the correction. Makes it worse that you remined me I was FORCED to buy 2 expansion on a base game in which I already bought with real money. Back to the point, You're FORCED to buy reaper of souls expansion to experience all those things you spoke. Anything to add now?  

 

Edit : Also, Warframe has dozens of characters. No need to use just 1 character for the whole game and all its content in order to progress in a good , timely fashion. 

You can't deny Diablo3 makes you pay. Yet Warframe doesn't make you buy anything at all. Soooooo......

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-08-31 at 3:54 PM, Knight_Ex said:

Wooo, touchy subject I know, but in light of the recent update and looking at the store, aura forma bundle and eidolon lenses, doesn't seem that big of a deal? However these are extremely rare drops in the game, because people were complaining DE decided to appease the wallet warriors, we already have boosters in game, and I understand the argument of P2W in a PVE game not being relevant however there are people that dedicate time and effort into farming these things, for DE to just pop them on the store and says "Hey guys, give us money and we will give you these rare drops", is quite a bit disheartening, not because I don't want this available to other people, I just don't want to see a habit of DE meeting complaints with "Oh lets just throw it on the store", whats next? Umbra forma?

LOL

Nah... Aura Forma are something that you really only benefit in a couple warframes at best (in fact the only one that i felt needed it was Nova, since Speedva and Slowva do ask for entirely different formas and builds). Also, they're kinda like normal formas, just that you only use one per warframe...
So buying it in the store is a meh proposition at best. Umbra Forma, that would be a different thing.

As for the Lens... Well, its mostly because they know that Lua Forma is a poor design, which was a on the knee alternative to the Echoes of Umbra. And their decision to continue the "stronger uses weaker to build" formula would mean that the people wanting to replace their old Eidolon with the new Lua lenses, would throw a fit over it.

Honestly, i don't think it's a step into P2W. If they made it harder to get the items when they add it to the store, then it would be a bit iffy... As it is, neither are that useful, or in demand. So its a convenience deal, more than P2W. Especially because neither item really gives a great advantage (people already had speedva and slowva builds, and people were already hitting max focus gains from ESO with Eidolon Lens, not to mention, that farming eidolons is still the better way to get Focus).

[kuciol]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

And then they buffed Wizard, woo! But yeah, the Star Pact build is not fun to play and neither is the RG killer Necro with that two minute cooldown LotD. Yuck!

 

They buffed him in another season. 

[NoSpax]

You can't buy skill.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

There is no winning on Warframe because we fight an endless battle. Keeping the game in beta is their revenue model to keep players investing and buying more and more. If they were truly hurting for money they would place some shady plays on us, but theyre not hurting for money (why else would they give 250k away, except for tax reasons and publicity). You don't win from buying an aura forma, they pose no strategic advancement compared to other options in the game other than on the draw aura change. In fact on this game its not P2W its pay to lose (lose your money) it's an investment into a digital life with real currency for digital currency or items that doesn't exist and has no tangible reaching where we can hold it and keep it forever. Nobody ever really pays and wins in an online game where your only reward is more digital code (ofc unless you play online games that offer prizes of value towards the purchase of something tangible). 

Edited September 6, 2019 by (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

16 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Exept there was a season where top 200 was like 90% Necro. If you didnt shell out money you lost.

Exactly this. You missed out. Not to mention that you WERE forced to buy Reaper of Souls to even get on the rift leaderboard regardless of what character you chose.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Don't worry,  i just edited it. Its been so long, I forgot they offered necromancer separately from Reaper of souls. Thanks for the correction. Makes it worse that you remined me I was FORCED to buy 2 expansion on a base game in which I already bought with real money. Back to the point, You're FORCED to buy reaper of souls expansion to experience all those things you spoke. Anything to add now?

Yeah, I'll add that as RoS offers basically new features to the game that don't exist in Vanilla, it's not a matter of not being able to reach a certain GR in Vanilla because you need to unlock a character class or level 70 or something else... but that this feature doesn't exist in the first place in Vanilla. 

I'd say RoS is pay for new features, pay for expansion  rather than "pay to advance." I mean, just wow... I mean, I feel the D3 forum stretches the meaning of P2W, but I think this going even further than that!

Also, you weren't forced to buy the Necromancer...

[kuciol]

Its just funny how people give examples of B2P games not being P2W. Dude you need to shell out money to even begin playing, not to mention winning! Think before you post something like this.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

22 minutes ago, nslay said:

you can definitely reach those GR levels with Wizard. So no, a game with 0 microtransactions and an audience rabidly against game enhancing microtransactions can take you far with a character class available since day 1. Definitely not pay to advance...

But you MUST buy Reaper of Souls expansion to even play in greater rifts...

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Yeah, I'll add that as RoS offers basically new features to the game that don't exist in Vanilla, it's not a matter of not being able to reach a certain GR in Vanilla because you need to unlock a character class or level 70 or something else... but that this feature doesn't exist in the first place in Vanilla. 

I'd say RoS is pay for new features, pay for expansion  rather than "pay to advance."

Umm level 70 is literally an advancement from level 60...

Greater rifts are literal advancements in gameplay. 

You cant even reroll gear without buying RoS expansion 

You FORCED to buy RoS to advance.