"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[Marine027]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb el_chanis:

it doesn't, at all. As i said before, DE needs some SERIOUS SHT to take notice of pretty much anything, and they admited this with the last Rahetalius incident. Most of the time, things fly right over their head. People complaint over the Prime Access since the very first unvault, and they changed it only after Jim Sterling made a video about it. Thats like 3 years and 6 o 7 unvaults of utter oblivious ignorance from their part.

I noticed a pattern with their desing process, they actualy hear community's feedback, if, and only if, the subject is already in their schedule. Thats why we see so many reworks delayed and launched with the respective Prime. The melee 3.0 was already in the making when they changed the melee slide, and rivens where about the get released when they nerfed the tonkor (and the first rivens where Rifle ones).

Trust me. There is very little in this forums that has ever made a change in Warframe.

Yet this not changes that they can just hand out the Founder stuff, which my comment was about, without facing a problem that can lead to the court.

You can't just demand things if you are loud enough, thos examples as true they are and i not disagree with them even, it still not changes the founder problem.

I can also make a petition or so demanding i don't know giving everyone a free car if they steal it themself, it is still illegal even if you want it.

You mixing up problems that need attention with things you just want out of spite apperently.

[el_chanis]

3 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Yet this not changes that they can just hand out the Founder stuff, which my comment was about, without facing a problem that can lead to the court.

 

part of the legal system includes paying the price. If the benefit of releasing Exca prime (or reducing Hema's price for that matter) outweights the cost, then DE could easily sht on founders and make 99.99% of the community happy, with some serious profit in the process. Then again, thats not how DE operates, and aside from knowing WHEN things happen (aka, being in the schedule), nobody knows WHY it happens, because community's demands cleary AREN'T the reason.

[PatternistSlave]

4 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

because community's demands cleary AREN'T the reason

They clearly do listen to the forum regulars when deciding many things.  The forums often not being representative of the larger community is where the disconnect lies.

[el_chanis]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

They clearly do listen to the forum regulars when deciding many things.  The forums often not being representative of the larger community is where the disconnect lies.

Not a single soul has ever thought "hm, thats a nice and fair price for something i already have" when they launched the unvaults, and that took YEARS to change. They never listen. The fact that SOMETIMES DE's decisions and some ppl's demands coincide, is no indicator whatsoever about their decision's making process. Remeber the Ivara's poll about her augment? That went well right? Remeber raids, and all those posts not asking for their removal? DE acts in obscurely mysterious ways. 

 

[Teridax68]

5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Are we now on the level of ad hominems or have you just not been paying attention? I'm still hoping for the latter, given how you still haven't figured out in what way I disagree with my past self.

Pointing out that you are arguing from a subjective opinion is not an ad hominem. I do not care for the details in which you disagree with your past self, because that is irrelevant to this thread to the nth degree.

Quote

Well, regarding this thread here I can't help it. I think I've made myself clear enough already, but it still feels like that's not the case.

Your case was a bit different, but not entirely unrelated.

This is all very nice, but you not being able to control your obsessive tendencies has caused you to dump a whole lot of nonsense onto this thread that has had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion. I could not care less if you "can't help it", this thread isn't and never was your personal soapbox for demanding more content in the Conclave, and the fact that this is apparently not the only discussion you've hijacked to that intent should be a warning sign for you to start examining your behavior.

Quote

What I've written is only not relevant if you ignore the past. What are you trying to say? That we've always been at war with Eurasia? (To make a bad analogy)

What DEMonkey is pointing out is that you are abusing the fact that there is valid criticism to be made of Conclave in order to talk about that criticism in places where it's wholly inappropriate. This thread, for example, is not a thread about Conclave not having MR exclusives, it's a thread about DE's inconsistent policy regarding alleviating the grind in Warframe: this just so happens to include the grind in Conclave, which could and should have a means of alleviation through Universal Medallions, as with every other syndicate, and as with the many other instances where DE gave players more options to grind, or just easier grinding.

As I made clear in my posts here, I don't disagree that Conclave is suffering, and I have no particular opposition to DE giving it the love and attention it so desperately needs (and, in fact, I would wholly encourage this if this brought significant improvements to the mode). In this regard I also have no opposition to giving Conclave MR exclusives, particularly if that helps bring attention to it. However, the question of unique MR items in Conclave has no relevance to whether or not Universal Medallions should apply to it. Universal Medallions could be re-enabled in an update that wouldn't yet add content to Conclave, and Conclave could be updated with more content without re-enabling Universal Medallions. The two proposals are wholly independent of each other, therefore barging into this thread with demands for MR exclusives in Conclave is irrelevant to this discussion, in addition to being disrespectful and self-serving.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Teridax68

[PatternistSlave]

23 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

Not a single soul has ever thought "hm, thats a nice and fair price for something i already have" when they launched the unvaults, and that took YEARS to change.

Not a common complaint and forum regulars do tend to dismiss and/or ignore these types of complaints.

24 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

They never listen. The fact that SOMETIMES DE's decisions and some ppl's demands coincide, is no indicator whatsoever about their decision's making process. Remeber the Ivara's poll about her augment? That went well right? Remeber raids, and all those posts not asking for their removal? DE acts in obscurely mysterious ways.

I'm not saying they always do what the community wants, but it's as much of a mistake to assume they never do.  And more often than not when they listen it's to the forum community with complete disregard for the playerbase as a whole.  "Player feedback" was clearly instrumental in the change to "universal" medallions since DE said as much and went back on what they'd originally intended.   No, I don't remember seeing a lot of posts about raids.  There haven't been.  Not in comparison to posts advocating Ember be nerfed for example.

[Kontrollo]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Pointing out that you are arguing from a subjective opinion is not an ad hominem. I do not care for the details in which you disagree with your past self, because that is irrelevant to this thread to the nth degree.

Dismissing my argument as subjective and characterising me as emotional are ad hominem. So is all of the following:

Spoiler

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... There is no "reasoning" to be had in your post, you're just hijacking this thread to make demands about Conclave, because nobody listens to you on the Conclave subforum.

...

If you want to stop being called out on your rambling, perhaps stay on-topic, or at the very least try to at least say one thing in your post that relates to this thread, as currently you have failed to achieve even that little. ...

... you are using words you clearly do not know the meaning of, while also using deliberately vague and ambiguous expressions ... It is you who are grasping at straws to excuse your hijacking of this discussion, and trying to weasel your way out of having to concede a point you have clearly lost. Just because you feel strongly about something does not mean your every thought and claim is objective, and insisting that something is a strawman (when it clearly isn't) purely through repetition, without even a hint of explanation, is itself not a rational argument.

...

In other words, you want to hold one issue hostage ... toxic gatekeeping mentality of some players, a problem that unfortunately appears to be especially notable in the Conclave community.

because it's clearly not discussing my viewpoint, and instead is just trying to paint me as someone who wants to derail this thread with an unrational argument driven by emotion. Furthermore, the comment about the "toxic gatekeeping mentality ... especially notable in the Conclave community" is a very -- let's say -- unfriendly generalisation.

Please refrain, this is not constructive.

 

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt with respect to my past and present stance, because yes, I've been vague on that, so let me spell it out. Both matter in what I'm trying to get across or I wouldn't have brought it up. In the past I was arguing for giving Syndicate weapons to the Conclave so that it would be treated like the others. In the 4.5 years since 2.0 this has never happened, but my stance on the matter has changed:

At this point in time, I agree that there should be no rewards meaningful for PvE progression locked behind the Syndicate. Entirely for the sake of all the players who have demanded this in the past. So that they are not "forced" into this Syndicate. Obviously, I don't share that mindset, because I like playing both PvE and PvP.

So while I don't agree with the dichotomy that was established then, I do agree it was necessary.

 

With me so far?

 

So that brings us back to the present and this topic. It's not a double standard for DE to not include the Conclave Syndicate in the UM, because it already wasn't treated like the other "Syndicates" in the first place. (The flaw in your premise.)

If we can finally get rid of that distinction and bring the Conclave up to par with the others, then there is nothing in the way of adding it to the UM anymore, either. I am definitely in favour of that and also in reducing the grind.

I am, however, not in favour of keeping that unnecessary distinction and just enabling the Syndicate for the UM. 

[PatternistSlave]

On 2019-09-18 at 2:22 PM, Redrum_Wraith said:

I don't PvP in Warframe and I likely never will

Then you have no idea what it entails and should not be criticizing a change in its reward system.  Your opinion comes from a place of complete ignorance.  Of course one of the reasons you're unlikely to ever even try PvP is because of its disconnect from the rest of the game.

On 2019-09-19 at 9:38 AM, Stormdragon said:

stuff like UM's do nothing to fix them

One of the major flaws of PvP is the reward system and the unreasonable standing grind.  UM's while not a solution would at least mitigate the problem somewhat.  Another issue is the lack of player engagement period with PvP.  UM's would encourage players to at least try PvP.  Like how most games give you a bit of starter plat to encourage you to check out the market.

On 2019-09-19 at 9:15 PM, Stormdragon said:

Or you know, they could improve it to give people something to do during the so called "content droughts" and make the audience target of warframe even wider than it already is.

That's assuming a PvP system with a reasonable reward system that people enjoy playing.  Otherwise it becomes overwhelming and only accelerates burnout.

[Redrum_Wraith]

8 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Then you have no idea what it entails and should not be criticizing a change in its reward system.  Your opinion comes from a place of complete ignorance.  Of course one of the reasons you're unlikely to ever even try PvP is because of its disconnect from the rest of the game.

 

What's not to understand? Enlighten me, please.

Would it be fair to say that ignorance is thinking a player that doesn't want to PvP is going to want to PvP because they can get the rewards from PvE? It's a stronger reason for me to not have to ever play it beause why should I when PvE gives me those rewards. It may be a grind, but this is Warframe afterall.

Would you accept DE rewarding PvP rewards to players that never have to learn what it entails?

 

[Stormdragon]

13 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

One of the major flaws of PvP is the reward system and the unreasonable standing grind.

The grind isn't that unreasonable when you keep in mind that standing gains depend of your performance in the match, increase with your syndicate rank, can be increased further by staying on consecutive matches, that doing the daily tasks gives additional standing and completing all 3 weeklies grants 50K conclave standing (which should be given through PvP medallions to prevent issues created by inbox messages self opening but Teshin doesn't even have an UI to redeem medallions and it hasn't been addressed by DE in years).

A standing gain buff would be neat, specially for players who have a harder time scoring kills, but it would also be forgetting that end of mission standing gain used to be higher but got nerfed and moved to player performance to encourage active gameplay thanks to people afk botting to progress in the mode.

31 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

UM's while not a solution would at least mitigate the problem somewhat.

Yeah, but having non-pvp ways to progress in conclave creates other issues such as locking players with lottle to no PvP experience out of Recruit Conditioning which is intended to keep new players apart from old ones, for example.

35 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Another issue is the lack of player engagement period with PvP.

Yeah, that's partly because there's too much stuff to do and grind for in PvE to bother with playing a part of the game that doesn't affect progression in any way in a game where progression is all about getting stronger just for the sake of being even stronger.

39 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

UM's would encourage players to at least try PvP. 

I've seen quite a lot of people say otherwise, you can refer to Redrum_Wraith's reply right above mine for the latest example of it.

42 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

That's assuming a PvP system with a reasonable reward system that people enjoy playing.  Otherwise it becomes overwhelming and only accelerates burnout.

 The thing is, what's a reward system that feels reasonable for PvE players but also makes sense for a PvP environment? What's an enjoyable PvP for a community built around a game where PvE is currently a winning simulator?

[PatternistSlave]

5 minutes ago, Redrum_Wraith said:

What's not to understand? Enlighten me, please.

The lack of players make it an exercise in frustration to even get matches.  The reward system was designed around a large, dedicated playerbase that doesn't exist.  Conclave is fundamentally broken to begin with.

8 minutes ago, Redrum_Wraith said:

Would it be fair to say that ignorance is thinking a player that doesn't want to PvP is going to want to PvP because they can get the rewards from PvE?

When introduced to a reward system they are encouraged to continue and would very quickly learn how little standing "universal" medallions offer compared to participation, making them likely to at least try it.  If the player really just hates PvP why not offer an alternative way to get these rewards?  Why try to force players to do something they hate?

3 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

The grind isn't that unreasonable

I've grinded out literally everything and nothing has taken the time PvP does.  Including systems that have long since been changed to be less grindy.  Maybe this made sense when Conclave was envisioned, but the reality makes such a reward system ridiculous.  Such an underplayed mode, with such a desperate need for players, so reliant on players should be just showering anyone bothering to look at it with rewards.

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

Recruit Conditioning

Broken and dumb.  I could at least get matches before hitting rank 3 or whatever.  Now it's literally impossible unless I play during very specific times.  It takes almost no time whatsoever to reach a rank where you can no longer use Recruit Conditioning.  Are you honestly going to tell me I compare in any sort of way to players who've spent years playing Conclave just because I've reached rank 3?

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

Yeah, that's partly because there's too much stuff to do and grind for in PvE

You're contradicting yourself.  My post was responding to you talking about "content drought".  A poor excuse anyway.  I play plenty of PvP games alongside Warframe and I'm sure I'm not alone.

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

I've seen quite a lot of people say otherwise, you can refer to Redrum_Wraith's reply right above mine for the latest example of it.

See my response to them.  I'll pose the same question to you.  Should players be forced to do something they hate?

1 hour ago, Stormdragon said:

The thing is, what's a reward system that feels reasonable for PvE players but also makes sense for a PvP environment? What's an enjoyable PvP for a community built around a game where PvE is currently a winning simulator?

What should be priority at this point is a system with some anchor in reality.  The playerbase they expected isn't just going to suddenly spring up out of nowhere.  The reward system should be tailored to something more reasonable.

[----Legacy----]

54 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Should players be forced to do something they hate?

dude, PvE players claiming to be forced to get the conclave skins are just like a vegan claiming to be forced to go to McDonalds in order to get a T-Shirt with its logo:

They want the thing because they like how it looks but despise the thing it represents regardless. why would anyone want to walk around showing off the logo of something they actually hate in the first place?

[Stormdragon]

16 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I've grinded out literally everything and nothing has taken the time PvP does.

My experience is quite different since i can reach the daily cap in around 3 to 4 matches and i waste 132K standing (in mods i don't need + either a captura scene or 6 relic packs), around 3 or 4 times a week. As pointed in the part that got lost in your nitpick, it's all tied to player performance and even tough i don't need it i agree with a buff to standing gains.

21 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Broken and dumb.

I've never said RC is matchmaking done right, but it's the only thing DE has done about it so far.

24 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Are you honestly going to tell me I compare in any sort of way to players who've spent years playing Conclave just because I've reached rank 3?

No, but a skill based matchmaking requires numbers to support it otherwise it just achieves to split the playerbase even further. There are already issues since the current matchmaking is RNG based and looks for players only in 1 out of 48 possible pools while also accounting for the inaccurate ping limiter, so if some sort of intermediate level got added before reaching typhoon (as another unoptimal way to split players akin to RC) then it would immediately become 72 player tools.

There are ways for DE to help with this, suggestions have been made for years, but stuff like playing the shawzin gets to be feature creeped and released in a couple of months while a lot of QoL improvements for different parts of the game only get to remain in the coldest ends of the backburner.

31 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You're contradicting yourself

Actually no, players in the early and mid stages of the game have a lot of stuff to do, while those complaining about content drought are usually those that have already gotten everything PvE has to offer and want the next big update asap, but are also usually the same players who despise pvp "in warframe" because they can't be bothered with learning something like aiming while moving since that's not needed for PvE where a warframe can sniff and delete an entire army even before getting to see it.

41 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

My post was responding to you talking about "content drought".  A poor excuse anyway. 

As poor as an excuse content drought is, you will always see people using it in an attempt to get DE to rush the next big updates. the reason why i said it with quotation marks is because i've never had experienced a content drought myself since i can always go back to conclave after getting done with a big update.

41 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I play plenty of PvP games alongside Warframe and I'm sure I'm not alone.

So do I, and not only for PvP games but also for PvE ones, warframe just happens to be amongst my favorite ones atm.

46 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

The lack of players make it an exercise in frustration to even get matches

Lack of tools to find other players is the actual issue, the current system even allows players to hide from others if they don't want to be found, that behavior is also part of the issue and DE has done nothing about it, not even after a partner made a video about how to exploit this flaw of the matchmaking system.

49 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Why try to force players to do something they hate?

Nobody forces anyone to do anything other than the player him/herself since nobody is missing out on power or progression, making the rewards not actually needed for anything, and i'm sure the ghost of forced gameplay isn't preventing anyone from sleeping until they get all of the conclave skins... at least not again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

What should be priority at this point is a system with some anchor in reality.  The playerbase they expected isn't just going to suddenly spring up out of nowhere.  The reward system should be tailored to something more reasonable.

I wouldn't mind changes to the reward system, i would actually like something like that and specially if it comes with the premise of other improvements being added later down the road, or even better, some of those improvements coming hand in hand with that change.

[Redrum_Wraith]

48 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

3 hours ago, Redrum_Wraith said:

Would it be fair to say that ignorance is thinking a player that doesn't want to PvP is going to want to PvP because they can get the rewards from PvE?

When introduced to a reward system they are encouraged to continue and would very quickly learn how little standing "universal" medallions offer compared to participation, making them likely to at least try it.  If the player really just hates PvP why not offer an alternative way to get these rewards?  Why try to force players to do something they hate?

While I do understand this point and your reasoning behind it, heck I even see the logic in it, I believe that players should accept that if they don't want to play PvP then they shouldn't feel entitled to the rewards that you had to earn and I doubt they care about PvP to begin with, it's player envy, they want the shinies without having to PvP.

This for me is something I believe on principle, and while you're right that I am ignorant when it comes to PvP (I think about trying it sometimes then imagine loading in to an arca plasmor Loki asking me how lucky I feel), I just don't see how it is fair to those that do PvP. If PvPers got together and said to DE, "we want UMs to work", then let them work. It still won't change my view.

[PatternistSlave]

3 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

dude, PvE players claiming to be forced to get the conclave skins are just like a vegan claiming to be forced to go to McDonalds in order to get a T-Shirt with its logo:

They want the thing because they like how it looks but despise the thing it represents regardless. why would anyone want to walk around showing off the logo of something they actually hate in the first place?

Warframe isn't about "showing off" to me.  Warframe is about collecting all the stuff and the things.  Skins are a thing.

3 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

My experience is quite different

Because your time schedule accommodates that.  Nice for you.  You must realize the problems with a mode that can only be played during a select few hours a day.

3 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

can't be bothered with learning something like aiming while moving

How quickly we resort to "git gud".  And you wonder why your "community" has such a bad reputation.  Has it occurred to you there might just be serious problems with the mode?

3 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

nobody is missing out on power or progression

"progression" is getting all the things.  Yes, Conclave is hindering my progression.

3 hours ago, Redrum_Wraith said:

I just don't see how it is fair to those that do PvP

If it wasn't for the rest of the game the mode they enjoy would have been gone years ago.  They've had their exclusive skins and such long enough and sorry I don't feel we owe them anything just for enjoying something most of us hated.  That's aside from how unfair it is to those that can't play PvP because they can't get matches.  And it's not like most players wanting standing haven't just cheated anyway.  Is that "fair"?  Cheaters have these skins, but legit players who just hate Conclave don't.

[Stormdragon]

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Because your time schedule accommodates that.  Nice for you.  You must realize the problems with a mode that can only be played during a select few hours a day

I realize and have addressed that issue on other posts, yet you keep avoiding it in your nitpicks in order to bruteforce the same argument.

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

How quickly we resort to "git gud". Has it occurred to you there might just be serious problems with the mode?

Not meant as a way to say "git gud". I think a huge part of the issue lies on how warframe is a game that doesn't encourage (let alone require) mechanical progression in order to be successful in its PvE despite its mechanics being far deeper than what one will ever get to use in it.

I can't deny that the mode itself has its flaws, but you're misplacing them.

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

"progression" is getting all the things.  Yes, Conclave is hindering my progression.

Well, that's on your own since nobody but yourself decided that completionism would be your goal.

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

They've had their exclusive skins and such long enough

Who is any of us to decide how long is "long enough"? We are mere players, none of us gets to arbitrarily decide how long is "long enough" and DE seems to disagree with your statement.

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

how unfair it is to those that can't play PvP because they can't get matches.

Pointed above and plenty of times before, after DE's decision with UMs it might be more fruitful to argue for tools to streamline finding matches than self victimizing in an attempt to appeal to DE's feelings to argue for the reversal of such decision.

Also keep in mind that DE mentioned a racing pvp mode that might get a new burst of players that you and many others could use to get matches.

12 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

And it's not like most players wanting standing haven't just cheated anyway.  Is that "fair"?

Well, with match finding tools cheaters would have a much harder time cheating the system since people willing to play legit would have an easier way to find them. But hey! I guess it's gonna get lost in your next nitpick (again) since it addresses the issue and offers a solution to it that isn't just allowing progression in the PvP syndicate through PvE.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Stormdragon
Removed redundancies from a post made half asleep.

[Teridax68]

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Dismissing my argument as subjective and characterising me as emotional are ad hominem. So is all of the following:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

because it's clearly not discussing my viewpoint, and instead is just trying to paint me as someone who wants to derail this thread with an unrational argument driven by emotion.

Except I am not using any of that as an argument against the substance of your posts, which I have addressed separately, I am simply pointing out that your attitude is posing a legitimate obstacle to constructive discussion. Ad hominem only applies when a person attempts to carry over judgment of a person onto the validity of their arguments, which is evidently not what I'm doing here, as your arguments are themselves worthless on their own merit. Once again, you would do well to perhaps listen for once, and improve your behavior, instead of automatically going into defense mode and trying to dismiss my valid criticism with whichever logical fallacy name you've chosen to use in ignorance of its meaning.

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Furthermore, the comment about the "toxic gatekeeping mentality ... especially notable in the Conclave community" is a very -- let's say -- unfriendly generalisation.

It is not that broad a generalisation to make when pretty much the entire active Conclave community shows up to demonstrate that exact kind of behavior. I'm reminded of that one old thread on the Conclave subforum where someone not only made the serious proposal that only Typhoon-ranked players should be allowed to post feedback, but got quite a few upvotes too.

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Please refrain, this is not constructive.

Actually it is, as it points out a critical problem with the way discussion has been broached here -- that Conclave is this special little place that deserves special treatment, and that if anyone who isn't a Conclave veteran wants to approach the mode, they need the approval from some self-appointed council of elders. It is a terrible attitude that is, ironically, one of the reasons why Conclave doesn't get that many newcomers, and it has colored much of the discussion on this thread.

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt with respect to my past and present stance, because yes, I've been vague on that, so let me spell it out. Both matter in what I'm trying to get across or I wouldn't have brought it up. In the past I was arguing for giving Syndicate weapons to the Conclave so that it would be treated like the others. In the 4.5 years since 2.0 this has never happened, but my stance on the matter has changed:

At this point in time, I agree that there should be no rewards meaningful for PvE progression locked behind the Syndicate. Entirely for the sake of all the players who have demanded this in the past. So that they are not "forced" into this Syndicate. Obviously, I don't share that mindset, because I like playing both PvE and PvP.

So while I don't agree with the dichotomy that was established then, I do agree it was necessary.

 

With me so far?

 

So that brings us back to the present and this topic. It's not a double standard for DE to not include the Conclave Syndicate in the UM, because it already wasn't treated like the other "Syndicates" in the first place. (The flaw in your premise.)

But that doesn't point to any flaw in my premise; you're just telling me that you feel Conclave has special status because it doesn't have this one thing you want out of it, which is just as irrelevant to the thread as the rest of what you've posted. The only thing that comes close is that DE made a deliberate choice not to add exclusive Mastery items because Conclave is so unpleasant for most players to grind, which only gives more reason for UMs to apply to Conclave.

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

If we can finally get rid of that distinction and bring the Conclave up to par with the others, then there is nothing in the way of adding it to the UM anymore, either. I am definitely in favour of that and also in reducing the grind.

But what is getting in the way, exactly? What is it about Conclave that is stopping UMs from applying to it now? Don't make up abstract excuses like "special treatment" or whatever, tell me exactly which special trait of Conclave makes UMs not apply to it.

23 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

I am, however, not in favour of keeping that unnecessary distinction and just enabling the Syndicate for the UM. 

Then advocate to remove whichever unnecessary distinction you believe exists in some separate thread, instead of hijacking threads that have no relation to it. It is ridiculous for you to deny that you have a gatekeeping problem and then display this exact kind of attitude where you think you get to hold some part of the game hostage until your demands are met. You are not the only Conclave veteran who's done this, either, which itself suggests a more general problem.

[PatternistSlave]

On 2019-09-22 at 5:56 AM, Stormdragon said:

DE's decision with UMs

Made this appeal to authority a few times and it's ridiculous.  DE originally were going to make UMs Universal.  Right in the name.  "DE's decision" was to make universal medallions.  Your community is why it was changed.

On 2019-09-22 at 5:56 AM, Stormdragon said:

Not meant as a way to say "git gud"

That's what you're saying though and it's nothing but insulting.  Enjoying gameplay with niche appeal doesn't make you special and Conclave isn't very mechanically intensive when compared to many PvP shooters.  Granted those are niche if not dead as well.

On 2019-09-22 at 5:56 AM, Stormdragon said:

Who is any of us to decide how long is "long enough"?

Around the time your mode is so dead that matches are impossible to get for many players?  That's long enough.

On 2019-09-22 at 5:56 AM, Stormdragon said:

Well, with match finding tools

When there aren't players to be found this is pointless and solves nothing.  Literally does nothing.

On 2019-09-22 at 5:56 AM, Stormdragon said:

nobody but yourself decided that completionism would be your goal.

No incentive to keep playing beyond maybe a few months otherwise.  If your goal is to convince me to just say "to hell with it" and quit playing?  Mission accomplished.  Have barely touched the game in weeks.

[supernils]

On 2019-09-18 at 8:00 PM, Teridax68 said:

As those who have heard about the issue know, DE has taken a stance where they've refused to decrease the ridiculously high Mutagen Sample requirements for researching the Hema

how comes I had no problems crafting Hema? (at MR10 or so) Didn't grind a thing. Maybe did one or two Invasions to complete resources needed.

People need to stop being so whiny when they see they can't get everything they want easily, like a child really. When I see something is out of my reach I move on and let go.

e: ok they meant the dojo requirements, I was mistaken

Edited September 29, 2019 by supernils

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, supernils said:

how comes I had no problems crafting Hema? (at MR10 or so) Didn't grind a thing. Maybe did one or two Invasions to complete resources needed.

People need to stop being so whiny when they see they can't get everything they want easily, like a child really. When I see something is out of my reach I move on and let go.

Because you're almost certainly lying, or your clan had already researched the thing for you? I'm not quite sure which reaction you expected here aside from "cool story bro".

[orangescythe]

i I just started the grind. It's going to take me a grand total of 11.11 hours with both boosters and a smeeta. All I ask is to remove the dumb key requirement from the derelicts because getting a group together isn't easy for this. Most people don't want any part of this grind.

[orangescythe]

56 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because you're almost certainly lying, or your clan had already researched the thing for you? I'm not quite sure which reaction you expected here aside from "cool story bro".

I think he's talking about crafting requirements not the research

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

3 hours ago, supernils said:

how comes I had no problems crafting Hema? (at MR10 or so) Didn't grind a thing. Maybe did one or two Invasions to complete resources needed.

People need to stop being so whiny when they see they can't get everything they want easily, like a child really. When I see something is out of my reach I move on and let go.

The resources required to craft the Hema are commonplace and easily earned. The resources that must be donated to a clan dojo to research the Hema in order to craft it at all is what has a massive, ridiculous, unreasonable grind. If you crafted the Hema, your clan already did the grind, so you have no idea what the problem actually is.

[Miyabi-sama]

В 18.09.2019 в 21:00, Teridax68 сказал:

Universal Medallions to not work with Conclave standing.

And why should they in the first place? It is a separate game mode. With different skillset demands. Different gear set demands. Different mindset demands. Earn it with blood and dedication. Or don't bother.

В 18.09.2019 в 21:00, Teridax68 сказал:

I am not criticizing DE for making any of these changes, I think every change listed here benefited Warframe and its players.

Yep, instead you devbashing, proclaiming them as hypocrites. DE staff admitted they have nothing against harsh critique.

And elaborate to explain how crappy skins for crap weapons along with unusable in PvE mods (with exclusion of some utility ones... actually farmed from Sentients) will make your experience better?

[Teridax68]

20 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And why should they in the first place? It is a separate game mode. With different skillset demands. Different gear set demands. Different mindset demands. Earn it with blood and dedication. Or don't bother.

Uh, what? Nonsense about "blood and dedication" aside, the same can be said for several other syndicates: The Vent Kids are entirely based on playing this completely separate minigame, and Cephalon Simaris himself relies on a completely different mindset to progress. The Ostron, Quills, Solaris U and Vox Solaris all have their own dedicated missions and content separate from the rest of the game, and the Quills and Vox Solaris in particular have far more specific gear requirements. Conclave is not particularly special in this regard.

Quote

Yep, instead you devbashing, proclaiming them as hypocrites. DE staff admitted they have nothing against harsh critique.

Then this should be acceptable, then, considering that I specifically pointed out that there was something wrong with deliberately taking an inconsistent stance. This is not "devbashing", this is pointing out facts and laying out justified criticism in the hopes of effecting positive change. If you consider any criticism of the devs to be bad, you're in the wrong forum.

Quote

And elaborate to explain how crappy skins for crap weapons along with unusable in PvE mods (with exclusion of some utility ones... actually farmed from Sentients) will make your experience better?

Some people genuinely like those skins, and in any case it makes for more available options. You may not like them, but you may be surprised to know that there are people out there who do not share your opinion, and whose differing opinions are as valid as yours.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Teridax68