"If It Was Painful for Me, It Should be as Painful for Thee"

[Miyabi-sama]

6 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Uh, what? Nonsense about "blood and dedication" aside, the same can be said for several other syndicates: The Vent Kids are entirely based on playing this completely separate minigame, and Cephalon Simaris himself relies on a completely different mindset to progress. The Ostron, Quills, Solaris U and Vox Solaris all have their own dedicated missions and content separate from the rest of the game, and the Quills and Vox Solaris in particular have far more specific gear requirements. Conclave is not particularly special in this regard.

So you've made it? Great joooob, now the only thing you have to do is progress further to the Tempest and start working on your standing for them sweet-sweet skins.

8 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Then this should be acceptable, then, considering that I specifically pointed out that there was something wrong with deliberately taking an inconsistent stance. This is not "devbashing", this is pointing out facts and laying out justified criticism in the hopes of effecting positive change. If you consider any criticism of the devs to be bad, you're in the wrong forum.

Saying "you did bad" is one case. Saying "you're bad" is completely another. You do latter. And there in another thread I thought you're a decent person.

9 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Some people genuinely like those skins, and in any case it makes for more available options. You may not like them, but you may be surprised to know that there are people out there who do not share your opinion, and whose differing opinions are as valid as yours.

Quite the opposite. I have Celestia, Lex, Braton, Vasto, and Nikana skins. Now i'm working on my Tipedo skin cuz Tipedo P. looks awful.

[Teridax68]

35 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

So you've made it? Great joooob, now the only thing you have to do is progress further to the Tempest and start working on your standing for them sweet-sweet skins.

... and again, how is this different from all the other grinding in the game? Can the same not be said for the other syndicates?

Quote

Saying "you did bad" is one case. Saying "you're bad" is completely another. You do latter. And there in another thread I thought you're a decent person.

So putting aside the tremendous irony of you lecturing me on this immediately before calling me a bad person, you seem to have gotten confused: there is a difference between stating that someone has taking a hypocritical stance (which is what I've done), and calling someone a hypocrite. I am not painting DE as irredeemable or bad, nor any of its members; quite the opposite: the core intent of my post here is to point out that this is an inconsistency that can very easily be rectified. I do this because I genuinely like DE and want to see them keep doing more good things. By contrast, blindly white-knighting them as you are here merely sends mixed messages, and at worst gives DE the false notion that they can do no wrong, even as they do repeat mistakes that come back to bite them.

Quote

Quite the opposite. I have Celestia, Lex, Braton, Vasto, and Nikana skins. Now i'm working on my Tipedo skin cuz Tipedo P. looks awful.

Then why did you call the skins crappy? Your statements of opinion are as inconsistent as they are irrelevant to the broader topic of discussion here.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Teridax68

[Miyabi-sama]

5 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

... and again, how is this different from all the other grinding in the game? Can the same not be said for the other syndicates?

Well, I suppose it's not. Then why don't you have those cool Syndicate features from Teshin? Come on, say it...

And, quite frankly, the intended drop rate for those UM's is so low you gonna burn out even faster.

10 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

difference between stating someone has taking a hypocritical stance (which is what I've done), and calling someone a hypocrite

Is nonexistent, you, blatant demagogue.
Is there a difference between criminals and people committing crimes?

13 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

By contrast, blindly white-knighting them as you are here merely sends mixed messages, and at worst gives DE the false notion that they can do no wrong, even as they do repeat mistakes that come back to bite them.

Come on, put some more badges on me. I am expressing my opinion, nothing else. Conclave is fun!

By contrast, I don't even have any idea what are your concerns about UM's and Conclave? There is plenty of time in your profile record, the standing from it should be easy enough to get, since you don't have to even farm anything, right? In the end of a day, it's just another Syndicate!

[Miyabi-sama]

21 минуту назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Then why did you call the skins crappy? Your statements of opinion are as inconsistent as they are irrelevant to the broader topic of discussion here.

And this matter is not of your concern, nor it being related to the topic.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Calling all ships at sea, calling all ships at sea *beepbeepbeep beep bebebeepbeep* calling all ships at sea...

Someone has just noticed..... That DE... Are hypocrites. 

[Miyabi-sama]

9 минут назад, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx сказал:

Calling all ships at sea, callin...

You don't say lol.

I wonder why every other UM and Hema threads werent merged in this one.

But you know, it is really amusing to watch how people ignite a drama about some skins in some game. Just as dramatic as that fella who was blamed for changing Steve's mind on UMs.

People were like "ugh this PvP is FUBAR, skins are cute but doesnt worth a try. Meh, not gonna bother, DE might as well scrap the entire gamemode". And then comes the bait with UMs and people are "GIMME GIMME".

Same with the people who doesnt want to farm Hema as some kind of protest, despite of what it requires to do is just go and play. Yes, a specific place, specific faction. But people claim to love the game, right?

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2019-09-19 at 3:50 AM, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but Conclave also has cosmetics, mods, Captura scenes, etc. that can be found nowhere else, as well as warframe BPs, so there clearly is an element of progression there too.

You really should reread the info about those frame bp's if nobody else pointed out your mistake.

[Teridax68]

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Well, I suppose it's not. Then why don't you have those cool Syndicate features from Teshin? Come on, say it...

Because I haven't taken any large amount of time to play Conclave? Before you start jumping up and down in glee for having caught me, this is by no means the only part of Warframe I've put aside, either: I haven't gotten the full set of Defection-exclusive mods either, because the mode is so unpleasant I'd rather not touch it while I have other things to do. Similarly, I haven't put any particular amount of effort towards obtaining those ultra-rare Plains mods, even though Thumpers have made it a lot easier, nor have I yet gone through the grind for Vengeful Revenant. Conclave is but one of the many portions of a vast game whose progression I have eschewed, at least for the time being, simply because I have other things to progress through that I much more enjoy doing. Given your stats, you should be able to say the same.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And, quite frankly, the intended drop rate for those UM's is so low you gonna burn out even faster.

... assuming you were to force yourself to grind UMs exclusively, in which case your burnout would be your own fault.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Is nonexistent, you, blatant demagogue.
Is there a difference between criminals and people committing crimes?

... yes. Jaywalking is a crime, but most of us have likely jaywalked, and only few of us here will ever be considered criminals. Not only are you focusing on completely the wrong thing (what matters is what DE have done, not who they are, particularly as DE itself is a company, not a person), you are visibly using this portion of the argument as an excuse to insult me, evidently without even knowing the meaning of the epithets you are using.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Come on, put some more badges on me. I am expressing my opinion, nothing else. Conclave is fun!

Sure, except if you were to use that as a serious argument, then turn around on your very next post and state you hate Conclave, I'm going to point out you're contradicting yourself. This is what you've done regarding your opinion on Conclave skins.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

By contrast, I don't even have any idea what are your concerns about UM's and Conclave? There is plenty of time in your profile record, the standing from it should be easy enough to get, since you don't have to even farm anything, right? In the end of a day, it's just another Syndicate!

... but I'm not just arguing for myself here. Again, the central point I am making here is that DE's treatment of both Conclave and the Hema is blatantly inconsistent, an issue that affects every player in Warframe. Of course anyone can grind either, but given the way the game has evolved to give players more than one way of grinding towards any given reward, and a less unpleasant grind overall, there is no reason for this grind to remain as isolated or excessive as it currently is, respectively. This is a point that stands irrespective of my own progress or opinions, and while this may be hard for you to personally understand, some people do in fact advocate for positive change even if it brings no direct benefit to themselves: even if the changes I'm pushing for get implemented, I am unlikely to grind Conclave standing through UMs, and if I really wanted to max myself out in the syndicate I'd probably put my nose to the grindstone and play more Conclave, because that would and should be the faster mode of progression. There are many more, though, who'd appreciate the boost, and in the absolute worst case who would genuinely have more fun grinding Disruption than grinding Conclave to progress through the latter, something they are allowed to do by the same right as any other syndicate.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And this matter is not of your concern, nor it being related to the topic.

Precisely, so why did you make it my concern by attempting to bring up your personal opinion as a legitimate argument? Either you're making an argument or you aren't; you don't get to pretend like your opinion is some universal truth, then childishly tell me it's none of my business when I question you on the inconsistency of said opinions you just previously attempted to foist upon me.

6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Same with the people who doesnt want to farm Hema as some kind of protest, despite of what it requires to do is just go and play. Yes, a specific place, specific faction. But people claim to love the game, right?

Just because the game is considered pleasant overall does not mean that repeating the same tiny piece of content for literal hours is equally fun. Just a quick reminder that Warframe is a video game, and short of providing some powerful artistic or narrative value, ought to provide fun to the player: the fact that the Hema grind is considered excessive by players otherwise generally accustomed to grinding in a notoriously grindy game should be an indication that the grind is, in fact, excessive to the point of not being fun. There is no reason not to tone it down to a point where it is more bearable, particularly when there are so many examples of DE doing the same for other, often much less grindy pieces of content.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

You really should reread the info about those frame bp's if nobody else pointed out your mistake.

If the "info" is that those blueprints aren't exclusive to Conclave, I'm well aware, but that does not stop those rewards for being on the PvP drop tables, and thus being an alternative way of obtaining those frames. This may not be so important for Excalibur or Mag, but in the case of Volt it means the player doesn't have to join a clan or worry about clan research.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

@Teridax68No, the info you keep forgetting about is you are not buying any frame bp's in Conclave.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Rez090 said:

@Teridax68No, the info you keep forgetting about is you are not buying any frame bp's in Conclave.

... sure, you are buying the full frame, not the best phrasing on my part, but we do seem to have understood each other so far.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

... sure, you are buying the full frame, not the best phrasing on my part, but we do seem to have understood each other so far.

I will say though, still faster to just join a clan for Volt, since it takes the highest Conclave rank and somewhere between 70-90k standing.

[Miyabi-sama]

Boy it took you 7 hours to type another wall of text instead of keeping it simple. You are such easily baited in meaningless conversation. But on topic (and I am serious now):

1 час назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Again, the central point I am making here is that DE's treatment of both Conclave and the Hema is blatantly inconsistent, an issue that affects every player in Warframe.

Hora, hora! Don't you confuse two different matters. While I mostly agree about the fact that one sunny morning Steve decided to be sadist and not change Hema at all, the Conclave is different matter.

Due to the fact Conclave was been separated from PvE content on intention a long time ago, bringing non-PvP ways of farming Conclave standing directly contradicts that intention. Having this in mind there is no hypocricy on DE's side regarding that matter.

I do aknowledge that a great amount of dedicated conclave community members are in fact very positive about UM addition as it does not matter anything for them. And I am not speaking on their behalf, stating my own opinion on this topic, being involved in sphere of interest.

But in your case, when you couldn't care less about a great deal of content in this game, including the matter of topic you've brought in, speaking on behalf of frustrated community, half of which are ready to bash devs about locking skins from them and demanding to give it away, and another half has decency to respect DE's decision on Conclave.

Just give up already, this horse is already beaten to death. Many have came. Many have failed.

What next? Introduce Excalibur Prime Access? Introduce exclusive Jade skins from XBox for PC? DE have to keep their promises at least somehow.

2 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Precisely, so why did you make it my concern by attempting to bring up your personal opinion as a legitimate argument?

That's something I've heard from fiery discussion in regards of exclusive skins. Some guy stated "not very cool skins but I still want it". And this is not my argument. If you can't recognize sarcasm then it is not your business.

3 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Just because the game is considered pleasant overall does not mean that repeating the same tiny piece of content for literal hours is equally fun...

 

3 часа назад, Teridax68 сказал:

... assuming you were to force yourself to grind UMs (or Mutagen Samples) exclusively, in which case your burnout would be your own fault.

So... we gonna bring the same potentially Hema-scale crazy chore for people wanting Cc rewards? Have mercy on them!

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Boy it took you 7 hours to type another wall of text instead of keeping it simple. You are such easily baited in meaningless conversation.

You do realize how the human sleep cycle works, right?

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

But on topic (and I am serious now):

Hora, hora!

Side note, but the fact that you typed this out seemingly unironically, coupled with your username... just, no.

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Don't you confuse two different matters. While I mostly agree about the fact that one sunny morning Steve decided to be sadist and not change Hema at all, the Conclave is different matter.

Due to the fact Conclave was been separated from PvE content on intention a long time ago, bringing non-PvP ways of farming Conclave standing directly contradicts that intention. Having this in mind there is no hypocricy on DE's side regarding that matter.

You are many posts too late. This exact point has been brought up and answered already on this thread:

On 2019-09-19 at 12:17 PM, Teridax68 said:

But my point here is precisely that the whole PvP/PvE separation here is arbitrary and pointless. At best, it just locks a lot of players out of certain items, and at worst it pushes players who hate Conclave to play it, then have a bad time and complain about it. You could easily create this dichotomy between scanning and non-scanning gameplay with Simaris, who can now also be bypassed completely through Universal Medallions, yet that sort of separation appears ridiculous because few people hate scanning as much as they hate Conclave.

Within the very first page, in fact. If you really want to give the impression that you've only now started to get serious, you could perhaps have read a little further down the first page, particularly as this thread isn't exceptionally large and you've shown no qualms dedicating prodigious amounts of time towards posting yourself.

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

I do aknowledge that a great amount of dedicated conclave community members are in fact very positive about UM addition as it does not matter anything for them. And I am not speaking on their behalf, stating my own opinion on this topic, being involved in sphere of interest.

But in your case, when you couldn't care less about a great deal of content in this game, including the matter of topic you've brought in, speaking on behalf of frustrated community, half of which are ready to bash devs about locking skins from them and demanding to give it away, and another half has decency to respect DE's decision on Conclave.

It does not matter whether some players are "ready to bash devs" or not, the fact remains that the point I'm arguing is valid and has a sound, independently verifiable basis, as noted by the facts I brought up. Your attempts to argue ad hominem do nothing to contradict this.

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Just give up already, this horse is already beaten to death. Many have came. Many have failed.

Any many have succeeded simply because a players were insistent enough about it. If you don't think feedback can succeed unless it has an immediate impact, you're probably in the wrong forum.

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

What next? Introduce Excalibur Prime Access? Introduce exclusive Jade skins from XBox for PC? DE have to keep their promises at least somehow.

What promises? Excalibur Prime Access was in fact a legally binding promise; what was promised for Conclave or the Hema, pray tell?

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

That's something I've heard from fiery discussion in regards of exclusive skins. Some guy stated "not very cool skins but I still want it". And this is not my argument. If you can't recognize sarcasm then it is not your business.

Putting aside how terrible an idea it is to try to be sarcastic in pure textual format, your post was very evidently not sarcastic, as you were legitimately trying to argue that people shouldn't care about Conclave skins because of how crappy you said they were. What you are telling me is that you are either lying right now just to cover a bad attempt at an argument, or had simply burdened your prior replies with meaningless prattle. In neither case have you contributed positively to discussion.

1 minute ago, Miyabi-sama said:

So... we gonna bring the same potentially Hema-scale crazy chore for people wanting Cc rewards? Have mercy on them!

Uh, what? Where exactly did anyone suggest or imply this?

[Miyabi-sama]

9 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

feedback can succeed

Except your smartburp dispute is not a proper feedback from the very start. Next time refer to this:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1025140-how-to-provide-good-constructive-feedback-a-dev’s-story/

32 минуты назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Uh, what? Where exactly did anyone suggest or imply this?

You. In OP.

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Except your smartburp dispute is not a proper feedback from the very start. Next time refer to this:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1025140-how-to-provide-good-constructive-feedback-a-dev’s-story/

Well this is a rather interesting cop-out: if my entire thread was wrong for such a simple reason, why waste so much text engaging in a whole lot of other arguments? As it stands, my thread does in fact follow the guidelines set (my point is simple, there's plenty of evidence in the OP to back it up, and despite your deliberate misinterpretation of the title, the contents of my thread are in fact respectful of DE, and credit them for improving the game's grind), so it is patently obvious you're simply looking for an excuse to drop the argument while still trying to save face.

6 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

You. In OP.

... where? Literally post the quote that suggests I want to impose Hema levels of grind upon players for Conclave rewards.

[Cephalon_Baphoma]

Man this thread turned toxic fast, not even sure what it was originally about. 

 

Edit: this thread somewhat explains the crap thats been going on in the warframe community. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Cephalon_Baphoma

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-09-15 at 1:21 AM, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Gatekeeping by a minority of players that affects the majority.

Your assumption that players are the gatekeepers of produced content in both entirely misplaced and factually incorrect.

 

On 2019-09-15 at 11:37 AM, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Sibear itself suffers from being practically worthless

You'll find the hema equally worthless without a punch through or D+MS riven.

 

Both of these weapons are financial sinks, not content blocks, and the assumption that they are has no merit.

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, Cephalon_Baphoma said:

Man this thread turned toxic fast, not even sure what it was originally about. 

 

Edit: this thread somewhat explains the crap thats been going on in the warframe community. 

I think it's fitting that Rivens were named so, given their divisive effect on the community.

[Miyabi-sama]

8 часов назад, Teridax68 сказал:

...

 - First off, the name of your thread is a straight clickbait for people who came here to vent their grief. I suggest you to pick your topic name more carefully next time.

- Second, proclaiming you had no intention to insult somebody from dev crew, while actually blaming them in taking atrocious stance, is borderline insult. I suggest you to pick words more carefully next time. You do not beat a person with a stick and yelling "I had no intention to hurt anybody" along the way.

- This feedback thread, from all points of view, suggests and promotes only one possible solution, without collaboration and looking for workarounds. Specifically the solution DE have considered and moved away from. It is very doubtful pleas to reconsider will do any good to the situation.

- This thread already failed to stay objective on most parts with people promoting their interests as common greater good left and right. Instead of adress the arguments of participants, you in particular @Teridax68, have tried to subvert critique as personal attack. All of which, coupled with constant requests for clarification just puts participants off, as more and more same questions being asked.

====================

Now that I finished expressing my opinion on all this "underdog messiah" situation, I will elaborate to share a thought or another on topic, if this still does matters for anybody here.

The core misconception about syndicates lies within denial to separate them in their functions. Sure they serve one purpose - to be a reputation shop, regardless their respective means of reputation gain. The term "Syndicate" is vastly used by playerbase and developers crew to represent the reputation shop, regardless of it being an actual syndicate, a lone cephalon, an entire city population, or a marginal gang of children, or even a lone old Dax trooper. Lore wise of course the term "syndicate" is not appropriate in every case, but used for simplicity, akin to terms like "Railjack" or "Kingpin".

Thus said we have the oldest 6 shops, where player in order to gain Rep. had to choose several shops of their liking (up to 3 without significant drawbacks), slap the sigil and get to the actual gameplay, passively accumulating currency, while having access to a specific encounters, each tied to respective syndicate. Keep in mind the wares of those shops were intended to boost or alterate performance of player in the main gameplay section, providing somewhat exclusive wares, doubling eachother with rival combinations, so a lone player couldnt get all of them without excessive grind or barter.

Then the new shop emerged with exclusive goods, Simaris, gradually increasing its stock. The currency gain mechanics are different for this one, as you may have attend specific locations in the main gameplay section and look for a specific object there. The shop intended to provide player utility tools and some performance alteration means, whereas with latest additions some of primary tools migrated along with luxury items and collectibles.

We are approaching the next outstanding shop. The means of obtaining its currency are participating in one of four (more with events) unique encounters with alterated tools and powerups at their disposal within specific boundaries and ruleset, outside of main gameplay section, in a fight between several players, each one of which gained currency respectively for their successions in the given encounter with possibility to gain bonus currency for best performance or completing the daily/weekly tasks. The shop itself provides various exclusive (with little exceptions) powerups drastically alterating performance of allowed tools and other miscellaneous wares restricted to the abovementioned unique encounters, cosmetics and cosmetic sets for allowed tools and luxury items.

Now with addition of Ostron and SU, both sets of shops were exclusively providing tools, modular weaponry, permanent powerups, luxury items, collectibles, cosmetics sets (each thematically representing the Syndicate dwellers). The means of obtaining currency are hard tied on the main gameplay section at specific locations of grand scale, and newly introduced bartering mechanics, where you could exchange your accumulated resources for currency (fish, ore etc.)

In addition to the Ostron and SU we have Quills/Vox shops, which are made mainly for Tenno powerups and modular weaponry, along with some exclusive cosmetic sets, luxury items and tools. In order to obtain their currency players have to face specific relatively new encounters in the main gameplay section.

Lastly we have ventkids, whose stock exclusively consists mainly of cosmetic items, modular situational transport and its powerups. In order to accumulate currency player has to complete unique instances on the main gameplay section, or perform various skill based actions.

We will obviously skip Nightwave, despite this particular example could be described as simplified reputation shop, substitute for random encounters with additional reward, while being something different in scale, as player not only receives free exclusive luxury items, powerups and cosmetics based on their completions in the main gameplay section, but are also willing to choose additional wares from weekly rotated shop, containing cosmetic items, resources, powerups and a tool for gameplay.

In conclusion, technically speaking, there is no stunning difference between those shops. Each one has relatively or strictly exclusive stock, currency and different means to gain it. Hence collectively we can call them Syndicates, which is not technically true, but who cares at this point so far.

What also unifies all those shops are actions, which player should take in order to gain respective currency, the simpliest being moving and landing hits.

And one more common thing is each shop requires a specific location to be visited, some of them strict about that, but many give plenty of choice where to gain the currency.

Howewer,  you may have missed crucial detail in one of reputation shops, being the requirement of earning currency outside of the main gameplay section as admitted by developers crew and vast majority of players.

======================

Admittedly, dev. crew tried hard to integrate Conclave in the main gameplay section, with several (arguable) failures. With that in mind to maintain this shop, devs relocated it outside of main gameplay section relatively long time ago. After that due to intensive flood of rather negative feedback, developers made significant changes to that shop in order to completely restrict possible influence of this shop on the main gameplay section. As the result there was no possibility to gain Conclave reputation through taking any actions in the main gameplay section, and made it possible only through PvP environment. I dare to assume that in attempt to maintain status quo, they've decided to move away from implementation of newly introduced reputation gain method from the main gameplay section in Conclave. Considering that, one can hardly call DE hypocrites as the most hypocritical move could be unleashing PvE farm of PvP exclusive stuff after long time of promising.

Because it is hard to believe one whiny elitist on twitter could make Steve's heart tremble with "I want everyone suffer as I did" demand. I'd speculate about bigger plans regarding Conclave in future, as DE has a solid reputation for bringing back reinvented assets, which were considered fail.

Now, assuming that many other massive multiplayer games have similar cases of separating PvE from PvP content, as every player could choose their own poison (with a random portion of enjoying both), this was the right choice. Main gameplay section has its own goals and rewards, and PvP environment has its own.

Mixing them should be considered carefully, as this could lead to several predictable issues:

- some amount of struggling elitists would be upset on devaluating their efforts to achieve some of the PvP goals. You already have mentioned upset cBeta folks, and it could be wrong to just wave hand on their opinion, as they are members of community.

- some amount of hardcore farmers would nolife Disruption in order to get Conclave rewards bypassing PvP environment. And dear lord the grind will be real - just the kind of grind DE claims they want to get rid of in the game.

- some amount of envy or angry folks will still be trying to diminish the effect of changes, calling for scrapping the entire Conclave, as the delusion spreads about Conclave eating big deal of DE's resources.

And in the end of the day the very same guys will still be pissed as a pack of rabid pitbulls. That is my assumption based on previous observations, not prediction.

=====================

As for me, I am an elitist to some degree. If I gonna see people bolting around with Cc weapon skins I'd be sad. Because I've put a big effort in that. But in the end I have some balls to throw my grudge out and think of all the fun I had while was farming for my precious stuff. And wish I'd shared some of this fun with people who stayed away of Cc.

Should be UMs implemented for Cc? Why the hell not? Majority of Cc community speak about they have no issue about it.

=======================

About Hema. Welp, Ghost tier is somewhat manageable and I have no issues with that. But scaling with clan tier is brutal, I admire folks who managed to pull it off in Mountain.

The only thing I don't quite fathom is amount of drama around it.

 

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

2 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

About Hema. Welp, Ghost tier is somewhat manageable and I have no issues with that. But scaling with clan tier is brutal, I admire folks who managed to pull it off in Mountain.

The only thing I don't quite fathom is amount of drama around it.

The drama is the Hema wasn't supposed to be that expensive from what I've heard, but instead of correcting it to something that wasn't so stupidly excessive, DE kept it that way because they didn't want to hurt the feelings of the extreme minority of clans who paid it off. Thus everyone else is screwed for the sake of a very tiny demographic that probably wouldn't even care if Hema's research cost was dropped down to 500 mutagen samples tomorrow. It's the principle of the matter that makes people upset about it.

[DeMonkey]

7 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Second, proclaiming you had no intention to insult somebody from dev crew, while actually blaming them in taking atrocious stance, is borderline insult.

Only if you're incredibly thin skinned.

Are you really suggesting we should be tip toeing in all our feedback threads? All critiques of the development team should be worded incredibly meekly, lest it be deemed "borderline insult" by random people who apparently want to be insulted in place of the devs?

Claiming that someone is being hypocritical is not an insult.

I'm afraid your attempts to construe the thread in this manner come off as quite... manipulative? At least imo. Especially when a couple of points seem incredibly contrived.

E.g. "Boy it took you 7 hours to type another wall of text instead of keeping it simple."

Says the person who just took 13 hours to type an even longer wall of text. That makes you a hypocrite, btw, and that's not an insult. Just looks like you're creating drama for the sake of it, not the other way around.

Edited October 1, 2019 by DeMonkey

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

9 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

You'll find the hema equally worthless without a punch through or D+MS riven.

Both of these weapons are financial sinks, not content blocks, and the assumption that they are has no merit.

I've never used Rivens & will continue to avoid them so long as DE remains ignorantly stubborn about weapon balance. The Riven system has failed in bringing countless weapons up to par with what is considered reliable equipment. The fact that MR fodder still exists is a testament to the wasted potential that still exists in this game, along with countless other things that would take too much time to list. Besides that point, unreasonably high resource sinks are still a waste of time, especially when that heavy investment results in a a tool that fails to live up to the expectations that one would imagine from all of the materials spent. There are better weapons that don't require that amount of effort to acquire.

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

 - First off, the name of your thread is a straight clickbait for people who came here to vent their grief. I suggest you to pick your topic name more carefully next time.

My thread's title is exactly what my thread does. My entire OP lists out all the cases of DE alleviating the grind, in complete contradiction with their own stance on UMs and the Hema. It doesn't seem you understand what clickbait means.

Quote

- Second, proclaiming you had no intention to insult somebody from dev crew, while actually blaming them in taking atrocious stance, is borderline insult. I suggest you to pick words more carefully next time. You do not beat a person with a stick and yelling "I had no intention to hurt anybody" along the way.

"Borderline insult"? What? How does that work exactly? Because as DeMonkey pointed out, you seem to be trying awfully hard to try to paint me as the villain here, yet are doing so in a manipulative way through deliberate distortion of what I've said. The fact that you have directly insulted me, and so unprompted, on numerous occasions on this thread is also itself hypocritical (and no, that's not an insult to your person, that is a criticism of your behavior).

Quote

- This feedback thread, from all points of view, suggests and promotes only one possible solution, without collaboration and looking for workarounds. Specifically the solution DE have considered and moved away from. It is very doubtful pleas to reconsider will do any good to the situation.

What "collaboration" or "workarounds" are we talking about here? The request here is simply for DE to treat the Hema and UMs like they have the rest of their game: how is that unreasonable? I have also pointed out that them "moving away" from such a solution is inconsistent with the rest of their behavior and is doomed to continue generating pointless frustration within the playerbase. It doesn't seem like you've paid any attention to any relevant part of this thread or its OP.

Quote

- This thread already failed to stay objective on most parts with people promoting their interests as common greater good left and right. Instead of adress the arguments of participants, you in particular @Teridax68, have tried to subvert critique as personal attack. All of which, coupled with constant requests for clarification just puts participants off, as more and more same questions being asked.

Where have I done so? Requests for clarification aren't a weapon, I have asked clarification only when people have outright made things up and put words in my mouth I have never said, a tactic you have repeatedly employed here in your attempts to villainize me. Countering such a request simply involves pulling whichever quote one was relying upon, an easy task that is particularly revealing when it fails to be accomplished. It is people like you who have failed to remain objective in your responses, as noted by you directly using your personal opinion of Conclave rewards as a legitimate argument, and it is similarly you who have tried very hard to frame moderate critique as an insult, as noted by your above posts. As such, it feels like you're trying to blame me here for your own shortcomings on this thread.

Quote

In conclusion, technically speaking, there is no stunning difference between those shops. Each one has relatively or strictly exclusive stock, currency and different means to gain it. Hence collectively we can call them Syndicates, which is not technically true, but who cares at this point so far.

And yet Universal Medallions work across virtually all of these syndicates all the same. Thus, the differences you bring up are not relevant with respect to this new currency.

Quote

Admittedly, dev. crew tried hard to integrate Conclave in the main gameplay section, with several (arguable) failures. With that in mind to maintain this shop, devs relocated it outside of main gameplay section relatively long time ago. 

You mean "outside of main gameplay" like you just got done explaining in your wall of text above? Because as you yourself managed to point out, there is no such thing as a standard syndicate or one dedicated to "main gameplay", every syndicate occupies a niche. Conclave is therefore no different in this respect, as had already been said above.

Quote

Because it is hard to believe one whiny elitist on twitter could make Steve's heart tremble with "I want everyone suffer as I did" demand. I'd speculate about bigger plans regarding Conclave in future, as DE has a solid reputation for bringing back reinvented assets, which were considered fail.

Or, more simply, it is likely Steve aligned with that person before they had made that tweet, and that was enough to special-case UMs out of Conclave. DE does have a reputation for bringing back failed content and making it a success, but considering how Conclave has been treated, including now, believing that this is all some coded signal for some imminent overhaul when Railjack is a thing is... well, cute, but unrealistic.

Quote

Now, assuming that many other massive multiplayer games have similar cases of separating PvE from PvP content, as every player could choose their own poison (with a random portion of enjoying both), this was the right choice. Main gameplay section has its own goals and rewards, and PvP environment has its own.

But in those MMOs that separation is meaningful, because those games make a point of establishing a solid niche for PvP, just as they usually also do for raiding. Meanwhile, PvP isn't a solid niche in Warframe, and is in fact smaller than a whole bunch of other niche bits of gameplay that have their own syndicate, such as scanning and K-Drives. Because the latter aren't considered some major, distinct part of the game, neither is Conclave, and we can't treat it like PvP in a game like WoW. 

Quote

Mixing them should be considered carefully, as this could lead to several predictable issues:

- some amount of struggling elitists would be upset on devaluating their efforts to achieve some of the PvP goals. You already have mentioned upset cBeta folks, and it could be wrong to just wave hand on their opinion, as they are members of community.

But DE have done it anyway, as listed in that very same example, and everyone survived to be the happier for it. Listening to all members the community does not mean bending to the whims of the few at the expense of everyone else, and in general it seems a lot of people confuse being listened to with being obeyed.

Quote

- some amount of hardcore farmers would nolife Disruption in order to get Conclave rewards bypassing PvP environment. And dear lord the grind will be real - just the kind of grind DE claims they want to get rid of in the game.

Sure, it'll be a major grind -- but a wholly optional one alongside the existing grind for the same reward. Players who'd be no-lifing Disruption would be doing so because they really don't like playing Conclave, and that's fine. If neither option were satisfactory, surely that should be a reason to make the grind easier, don't you think?

Quote

- some amount of envy or angry folks will still be trying to diminish the effect of changes, calling for scrapping the entire Conclave, as the delusion spreads about Conclave eating big deal of DE's resources.

... why? People already do this, and UMs don't actually require any changes to Conclave. At this point you're just resorting to fearmongering.

Quote

And in the end of the day the very same guys will still be pissed as a pack of rabid pitbulls. That is my assumption based on previous observations, not prediction.

Sure, they'll be pissed, and eventually that storm in a teacup will weather, like it always does. It wouldn't be the first time a Conclave player wouldn't have gotten what they wanted.

Quote

As for me, I am an elitist to some degree. If I gonna see people bolting around with Cc weapon skins I'd be sad. Because I've put a big effort in that. But in the end I have some balls to throw my grudge out and think of all the fun I had while was farming for my precious stuff. And wish I'd shared some of this fun with people who stayed away of Cc.

You clearly haven't thrown your grudge out, though, and your confession here explains a lot of your behavior on this thread, including your confused and contradictory argumentation on Conclave skins.

Quote

Should be UMs implemented for Cc? Why the hell not? Majority of Cc community speak about they have no issue about it.

Then why are you arguing against it? Where are we disagreeing? It seems you have a tendency to argue for argument's sake, as this is not the first time you've intercepted a post of mine to debate me, in spite of the fact that our opinions were aligned.

Quote

About Hema. Welp, Ghost tier is somewhat manageable and I have no issues with that. But scaling with clan tier is brutal, I admire folks who managed to pull it off in Mountain.

The only thing I don't quite fathom is amount of drama around it.

As someone above pointed out, the Hema research cost was clearly the case of someone adding far too many zeroes, but on top of that the cost remains notably excessive to this day compared to every other weapons, much like the Sibear. The fact that both the Hema and Sibear are mediocre weapons at best makes the grind even less justified: in the end, those high costs are there just because they were made that way and DE refused to change. At least Excavation is generally considered fun and is part of the main gameplay loop, but grinding for Mutagen Samples on ODD tends to not be considered fun for very long, and ultimately none of this has a real payoff besides a bit of Mastery fodder. There is strictly no reason for the grind to be that excessive, and the fact that DE have cited some weaksauce excuse to keep it in, in spite of the naked hypocrisy of such a stance, is at the core of the ongoing drama.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Teridax68

[Miyabi-sama]

On 2019-10-01 at 5:23 AM, DeMonkey said:

...

Is that a bait? Pffft. Try better.
Or simply get out, if you can't say anything on topic.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

"Borderline insult"? What? How does that work exactly? Because as DeMonkey pointed out, you seem to be trying awfully hard to try to paint me as the villain here, yet are doing so in a manipulative way through deliberate distortion of what I've said.

Don't start about distorting truth et cetera, I am commenting what you said, not what I am imagining. You had your fair share of distortion, let me have some.
At this point I missed the fact threads were merged, my apologies.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

And yet Universal Medallions work across virtually all of these syndicates all the same.

Uh... No they're not. Yet.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

You mean "outside of main gameplay" like you just got done explaining in your wall of text above? Because as you yourself managed to point out, there is no such thing as a standard syndicate or one dedicated to "main gameplay", every syndicate occupies a niche.

Yes, it explains the issue. No, you wrong, syndicates are not the same in terms of gameplay section, this is a misconception, growing up from generalization.
Conclave has secluded gameplay section with its own balance and rules. People fail to acknowledge the fact, or just simply ignoring, creating inconsistent comparison. Sure why taking in mind there's players fighting each other outside of standart missions, when all that matters is rewards?

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

But in those MMOs that separation is meaningful, because those games make a point of establishing a solid niche for PvP, just as they usually also do for raiding. Meanwhile, PvP isn't a solid niche in Warframe, and is in fact smaller than a whole bunch of other niche bits of gameplay that have their own syndicate, such as scanning and K-Drives.

This game's PvP gameplay section has:
- Different balance.
- Different rewards.
- Different matchmaking.
- Different goals from main gameplay.
- Its own community (Yes, some people come in warframe for just its PvP)
- Does not intercrosses with main gameplay section.
- Different META.

That's a solid meaningful niche, ignoring all these facts doesn't make your argument valid.
Honestly, you just ignore a huge portion of distinctive features, creating false generalizations all along the road.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

Sure, it'll be a major grind...

Which by your premise DE have tried to get rid of.
In fact majority of newbies struggling with Thumpers, Orbs and even Demolishers, thus said they are required to either grind for more power, or resort to help from so called "veterans", who can already have abundancy of those resources. Following this line, adding massive resource drops from certain kinds of end-game enemies only benefit those who already far in progression to the point where they can handle those enemies by themselves.
I suppose this conclusion proves wrong about changes not benefitting veterans and benefitting newbies.
And veterans could already help newbies before with baits and lures without an addition of massive resource drops, as I did on Vallis with fishing orokin drones in public.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

... why? People already do this, and UMs don't actually require any changes to Conclave.

So if that does not solved with addition of UMs in Cc, why bother to add it for sake of those players?

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

It wouldn't be the first time a Conclave player wouldn't have gotten what they wanted.

Same goes for non-Conclave players which you forgot to mention here.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

You clearly haven't thrown your grudge out, though, and your confession here explains a lot of your behavior on this thread...

It is a grudge on other community members igniting drama, S#&$talking and bashing developers for sake of damn skins.

I am ultimately trying to defend status quo of Conclave and its rewards from such a pleasant community members who have no decency to just ignore the secluded PvP gameplay section.

On 2019-10-01 at 9:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

Then why are you arguing against it? Where are we disagreeing? It seems you have a tendency to argue for argument's sake, as this is not the first time you've intercepted a post of mine to debate me, in spite of the fact that our opinions were aligned.

Our opinions are not aligned in any way. The resulting changes have nothing to do with opinion alignment. You wanna give the players alternative, majority of Cc community wants this f@#$in drama end...

... I want it to continue.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

Is that a bait? Pffft. Try better.
Or simply get out, if you can't say anything on topic.

Nice, very tactful.

I take it you have no actual response then?