Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

23 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

just that this wont be possible anymore if u read the planned changes as a whole. bloodrush/maiming will be adressed and combo will also be changed to only apply to heavy attacks. why do u take the current system into account when u argue about a future change ? if u do that then take the future changes to bloodrush/maiming also into account, otherwise ur whole comparison is pointless.

Weapons would still be able to crit using normal attacks that's not changing. Blood rush will still scale with the combo counter. The only thing is heavy attacks will waste the whole combo counter. Which most people going to ignore anyway. So if they weapons still going to be able to hit red crits it going to massively in front of status weapons no matter how you put it

[Hayaies]

The changes to condition overload are a propblem because its beeing turned into an (possibly) overpowered early and midlevel mod from the best (and only melee option) for infinetly scaling dmg while beeing rather weak against enemys that die in 1-2 hits anyway, thusly elimenating endgame content and increacing power creep.  Its also utterly senseles and ineffective to go the extra mile and make intersting builds around this mod and is now just a standart inclusion for the sake of burst dmg, or nerfed out of the game entirely, depeding on the for what ever reason still unrevaled percentage. Beyond this action wont increace build diveristy but only serve to push everyone to slash viral build for the few weapons were those work well.        -> just leave condition overload alone.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I think the point trying to be made here (or being missed by those against it) is that currently, crit-focused weapons and status based weapons both have a high damage potential due to either scaling crit damage really high, OR building your arsenal toward multiple statuses and using Conditioned Overload to scale your damage.

With CO nerfed to a 3 status cap, a status weapon will never compare to a crit based weapon for damage. In addition, a crit weapon can now use CO and proc status effects and get the benefit of being a "status weapon" (as far as CO matters), thus pushing Crit weapons into the spotlight, and status weapons back into the corner to die.

While we don't know the new crit number potentials with certain mods nerfed, and the new CO % numbers, no matter what the new stats are, without getting into the realms of absurdity compared to what I'd expect from the re-work, that crit/status paradigm isn't going to favor status at all, given what we know about the nerfs thus far.

And that's the loss of a category of melee builds, in my book. This isn't going to hit me hard, because I didn't do min-maxing into longer endurance runs where status outshined crit, but I feel for their loss, and would like to prevent that loss, if possible.

(If you don't think the nerfs will eliminate the status-based builds, you have a different perspective and optimism toward the proposed nerfs that others don't share.)

[Xolgys]

Gerade eben schrieb (PS4)Dyin-Kyo:

Weapons would still be able to crit using normal attacks that's not changing. Blood rush will still scale with the combo counter. The only thing is heavy attacks will waste the whole combo counter. Which most people going to ignore anyway. So if they weapons still going to be able to hit red crits it going to massively in front of status weapons no matter how you put it

and bloodrushs math alongside maiming will be changed in how the calculate. so the silly math behind them right now will be gone i assume. combo as a damage multiplier will only apply to heavy attacks, thats why the whole base dmg of melee is seeing an increase. u think crit is the solution to everything ? its just another means to increase dps and if 2 strong core parts, bloodrush and maiming change completely then noone can really tell yet how valuable pure crit will still be afterwards, aside of the diminishing returns of only focussing one direction like crit. on hybrid weapons it might alsonot be worth going for the scaling anymore, especially since heavy attacks consume it but all of that is still too vague to really judge, be it u or me or whoever -> wait for implementation.

if u wont go for heavy attacks that doesnt mean it applies generally. that aside, noone tells anyone to focus only heavy attacks but it might valuable to use depending on the numbers. if u only consider spamming the E button then thats u.

 

[(NSW)zook-pl]

Guys you speak a lot of about high level content and need of CO to do it.

But you know for new player getting CO is road thru hell. You need have 5k kills of specific enemy witch exist only on one planet and stop to spawn if you stay in mission to long. To have statistical means of except to drop it once. I don't think CO is good way...

[Xolgys]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb (PS4)AyinDygra:

I think the point trying to be made here (or being missed by those against it) is that currently, crit-focused weapons and status based weapons both have a high damage potential due to either scaling crit damage really high, OR building your arsenal toward multiple statuses and using Conditioned Overload to scale your damage.

With CO nerfed to a 3 status cap, a status weapon will never compare to a crit based weapon for damage. In addition, a crit weapon can now use CO and proc status effects and get the benefit of being a "status weapon" (as far as CO matters), thus pushing Crit weapons into the spotlight, and status weapons back into the corner to die.

While we don't know the new crit number potentials with certain mods nerfed, and the new CO % numbers, no matter what the new stats are, without getting into the realms of absurdity compared to what I'd expect from the re-work, that crit/status paradigm isn't going to favor status at all, given what we know about the nerfs thus far.

And that's the loss of a category of melee builds, in my book. This isn't going to hit me hard, because I didn't do min-maxing into longer endurance runs where status outshined crit, but I feel for their loss, and would like to prevent that loss, if possible.

(If you don't think the nerfs will eliminate the status-based builds, you have a different perspective and optimism toward the proposed nerfs that others don't share.)

i can see ur point but as u said these min-max changes only affect endurance runners really because we overkill nearly every enemy we face anyway in regular content. endurance runners are nieche and u cant expect DE to balance around them.

personally idc a lot about the changes to CO but a sensible decision would prolly be to limit it to 5 stacks and have the number at around 75% per stack. if u do the math its still silly strong and for average usage it already is a buff, this would be even more so one.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

3 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

and bloodrushs math alongside maiming will be changed in how the calculate. so the silly math behind them right now will be gone i assume. combo as a damage multiplier will only apply to heavy attacks, thats why the whole base dmg of melee is seeing an increase. u think crit is the solution to everything ? its just another means to increase dps and if 2 strong core parts, bloodrush and maiming change completely then noone can really tell yet how valuable pure crit will still be afterwards, aside of the diminishing returns of only focussing one direction like crit. on hybrid weapons it might alsonot be worth going for the scaling anymore, especially since heavy attacks consume it but all of that is still too vague to really judge, be it u or me or whoever -> wait for implementation.

if u wont go for heavy attacks that doesnt mean it applies generally. that aside, noone tells anyone to focus only heavy attacks but it might valuable to use depending on the numbers. if u only consider spamming the E button then thats u.

 

And you still not understanding. Yes combo counter only applies to heavy attacks. Not what we are talking about. A weapon just getting a 4x Crit damage will do better than 1 doing base damage. Most likely these weapons will still scale to orange or even red crits still. Which all you have to do is increase the combo counter. While status weapons basically have nothing.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

5 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

i can see ur point but as u said these min-max changes only affect endurance runners really because we overkill nearly every enemy we face anyway in regular content. endurance runners are nieche and u cant expect DE to balance around them.

personally idc a lot about the changes to CO but a sensible decision would prolly be to limit it to 5 stacks and have the number at around 75% per stack. if u do the math its still silly strong and for average usage it already is a buff, this would be even more so one.

But yet you saying 3 procs was ok. Like i said earlier i rather have it nerfed so that weapons that uses more procs receive a greater benefit than those that dont. Put it at 8-9proc cap at 50% if that's the case

[Xolgys]

Gerade eben schrieb (PS4)Dyin-Kyo:

And you still not understanding. Yes combo counter only applies to heavy attacks. Not what we are talking about. A weapon just getting a 4x Crit damage will do better than 1 doing base damage. Most likely these weapons will still scale to orange or even red crits still. Which all you have to do is increase the combo counter. While status weapons basically have nothing.

4x crit dmg on a much much lower base dmg value if u still go for scaling builds. pure status/base dmg builds sit at ~2.6k base dmg when scaling crit builds start at ~500 depending on the riven. now do the math with a 3.4x higher base dmg and tell me if u prefer to build combo until 3.5 at least, at the risc even of consuming the counter or instead go for a build that has 80%+ status and base dmg which is innately 5x that of a scaling crit build which doesnt get a base dmg increase from combo anymore and only relies on a changed bloodrush which probably will be much weaker than what is ingame now and thats just a pretty simply, straight forward example ignoring the value of status proccs, procc priority and armor to oppose any flat dmg builds.

funny how u still cant edit ur posts, talk about trying to build a post count.

 

Gerade eben schrieb (PS4)Dyin-Kyo:

But yet you saying 3 procs was ok. Like i said earlier i rather have it nerfed so that weapons that uses more procs receive a greater benefit than those that dont. Put it at 8-9proc cap at 50% if that's the case

3-5 proccs are ok. just do some math what 9 proccs mean in terms of a damage bonus. thats beyong broken and the only reason it was "fine" is because blood rushs math is even more broken considering crit levels. this math escalates within itself. +50% on a dmg number already increased 1.5x 8 times before is way stronger than the increases from all of the others before. also we accounted for a % of 90% with the 3 procc cap which is quite the difference to 60%.

how much more more power do u want out of 1 mod ?! enemies are dead either way, no matter if u have 100k overdamage or 140k...ur not even an endurance runner. i would understand an endurance runner stating his point of view and grabbing min/max numbers but ur clearly not.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

5 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

4x crit dmg on a much much lower base dmg value if u still go for scaling builds. pure status/base dmg builds sit at ~2.6k base dmg when scaling crit builds start at ~500 depending on the riven. now do the math with a 3.4x higher base dmg and tell me if u prefer to build combo until 3.5 at least, at the risc even of consuming the counter or instead go for a build that has 80%+ status and base dmg which is innately 5x that of a scaling crit build which doesnt get a base dmg increase from combo anymore and only relies on a changed bloodrush which probably will be much weaker than what is ingame now and thats just a pretty simply, straight forward example ignoring the value of status proccs, procc priority and armor to oppose any flat dmg builds.

funny how u still cant edit ur posts, talk about trying to build a post count.

 

3-5 proccs are ok. just do some math what 9 proccs mean in terms of a damage bonus. thats beyong broken and the only reason it was "fine" is because blood rushs math is even more broken considering crit levels. this math escalates within itself. +50% on a dmg number already increased 1.5x 8 times before is way stronger than the increases from all of the others before. also we accounted for a % of 90% with the 3 procc cap which is quite the difference to 60%.

how much more more power do u want out of 1 mod ?! enemies are dead either way, no matter if u have 100k overdamage or 140k...ur not even an endurance runner. i would understand an endurance runner stating his point of view and grabbing min/max numbers but ur clearly not.

You can drop it to 40% 8procs doesn't matter as long the weapons that need condition overload most get the greater benefits compared to the weapon that's already leading in damage 

[Xolgys]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)Dyin-Kyo:

You can drop it to 40% 8procs doesn't matter as long the weapons that need condition overload most get the greater benefits compared to the weapon that's already leading in damage 

and now ur throwing around RNG based arguments...have fun discussing on ur own.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

You clearly aren't seeing the point. But it's ok you'll eventually get it one day.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

5 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

and now ur throwing around RNG based arguments...have fun discussing on ur own.

Currently condition overload benefit the weapons that can proc the most procs possible. If it change to 3 procs this will benefit the strong crit weapon that only needs 3 procs. Do you comprehend?

[Loza03]

Reminder: We don't know the final numbers for Condition Overload yet.

Like it or not, this is a 'wait and see' situation.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Reminder: We don't know the final numbers for Condition Overload yet.

Like it or not, this is a 'wait and see' situation.

Doesn't matter what the percentage is the number of procs being capped at 3 is the problem

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

47 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

how much more more power do u want out of 1 mod ?!

Here is a point I see thrown around (not just you), and it's a misconception. The Mod facilitates an entire build's load-out to focus on status (primary, secondary, sentinel/pet all contributing) so that it is no longer just that 1 mod granting this power, it is an entire warframe's build (or at least one weapon and the melee weapon - and it is a more engaging playstyle that requires "priming" enemies with a status-inflicting method prior to attacking with melee... so more contributes to the power granted by the "one mod" than just the mod.

Overall, this leads to more interesting builds as people try to find more ways to add more statuses (not requiring all at all times, but some at all times, to provide a certain level of desired damage.) There is an increasing of diversity, using as many status ailments as possible, perhaps even tailoring those statuses to the weaknesses of the enemies you're going to be fighting.

Leaving it uncapped allows for as much diversity as possible being planned into a build.

I guess people think the resulting numbers were absurd, and that's where balancing comes into play, as well as how much work and how much synergy they expect people to put into their builds to be required to all converge on each individual enemy where that power is needed to kill them (in a horde killing game.)

 

That's the overall point here, that it's not just CO that's effortlessly granting players this power. (capping it at 3 actually does almost effortlessly grant players power)

[Xolgys]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)AyinDygra:

snip~

thats what i already said: its a buff for general, stand alone melee usage and a nerf to setups which include preproccing with a 2ndary, but the damage for that is not really too required unless u min/max for endurance running and CO is already worth it even with only 2 proccs for general usage.

pick which u prefer, im no judge of that, im only making the point of the changes not mattering too much in the grand cheme of things. people already follow the hype. if someone doesnt like that or prefers something else he/she is already free to do so, noone tells anyone to follow the "meta". its not like thats the only way to play, by far not. many ppl just seem to think that. these changes wont really alter that issue, its a personal call to make and CO wont really affect a player who knows his/her stuff and has clear preferrences, unless really its an endurance runner. i can see them really disliking this change, true.

 

[Loza03]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Doesn't matter what the percentage is the number of procs being capped at 3 is the problem

I understand it's unfortunate - I also enjoyed big CO setups, and used them when farming for Toroids near Fortuna's launch - but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

 

CO's heights were... absurd, if I'm being honest. If this is what it takes to bring Melee back in line (on both ends of the spectrum), then it's an egg I'm willing to have broken.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

4 hours ago, Xydeth said:

its not, u will have more damage faster but the max damage cap is lower. realistically u will have waaaaay to much damage with the named combinations and in realistic content enemies dont last long enough to actually require the damage u dish. usually u will procc 3-4 max and the enemy is dead since u have something called procc priority. on a regular weapon u have 3x IPS +1-2 elementals depending on how u mod and mostly u will procc one and the same more than just once so in total u will realistically have 3-4 different proccs on an enemy when it dies. the only real nerf is to combinations which include help from a 2ndary for example that proccs before u actually attack. most ppl use a high range melee weapon only since preproccing with a 2ndary is often limited in AoE. a melee on its own will not procc all of the possible status effects before the enemy dies. i run my own tests against lv 130s and a good status melee kills them way too fast that u could procc every single element on them.

u should not forget that each time u procc corr for example u automatically deal more damage. condition overload alone is not the reason why high status melee is great. lacera has only 2 dmg types on my build and kills faster than many hybrid weapons or others with multiple dmg types on them. at max with corr/blast its 3 CO instances on lacera and i dont even use blast on it so it 2 for my build and it still shreds them easily. dont tell me now evaporating 130s doesnt suffice for average gameplay because most ppl hardly ever suprass that level. the only content where it might have a value is arbis and even then 130 is not really the limit of what such a weapon can manage on its own.

now lets also not forget how broken COs math is, its not on blood rush level but its still silly. we were also very fine before CO release so having it grant less stacks but more dmg per stack is not a big deal unless u really think those huge pointless numbers u can achieve with it actually mean something.

It’s going to be a nerf to intuitive, planned gameplay and will just be a blind dps boost to just swinging your melee weapon with forced procs from your stance combos, ips weighted status procs, elemental procs modded on your melee weapon. Instead of having a synergetic idea of using your Warframe abilities, guns’ status procs, and/or Companion precept or weapon procs, everything is immediately serviceable via your melee weapon. It’s a nerf to mod diversity and the present changes to Condition Overload will just drone it all to a blind dps increase onto your melee weapon alone. What’s the point of playing smart when you can just slot the mod into your melee weapon and call it a day? 

Btw, slam attacks proc’ing “Lifted” state will count as a Status proc as well. This begs all the more reason that capping to a 3 Status Effect threshold on Condition Overload along with whatever procs you can already initally achieve on your melee weapon easily dumbs down any concept you want to play around with Condition Overload across your arsenal, no matter how the multiplier is adjusted. 

It’s a toss (out the window) delicate form of finesse status gameplay for caveman unga-bunga function. 

[Crewman82]

it all sounds a ton of crap to me,nerfing maiming stike and condition overload ,the guy that loves heavy atacks in digital extremes must be sacked,the same aplies to the guys that allways do the rebalancing-nerfing,no 1 cares about balance all the players want is to have fun and just obliterate everything,i remenber the old meele system in warframe and heavy atacks and other stuff realy suck,why chance something that is good? theres no other stuff for u devs to work on?or maybe devs like to create bad reactions from the comunity?how can i have fun if most things that i liked in warframe are gone,i like cheese,do you guys like cheese?warframe does not make cheese anymore,just post the full rework and the actual numbers and dont say its in testing,becouse its a lie,so thank you and a bucket full of rotten cheese to every 1in DE

[Xolgys]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Lei-Lei_23:

It’s going to be a nerf to intuitive, planned gameplay and will just be a blind dps boost to just swinging your melee weapon with forced procs from your stance combos, ips weighted status procs, elemental procs modded on your melee weapon. Instead of having a synergetic idea of using your Warframe abilities, guns’ status procs, and/or Companion precept or weapon procs, everything is immediately serviceable via your melee weapon. It’s a nerf to mod diversity and the present changes to Condition Overload will just drone it all to a blind dps increase onto your melee weapon alone. What’s the point of playing smart when you can just slot the mod into your melee weapon and call it a day? 

Btw, slam attacks proc’ing “Lifted” state will count as a Status proc as well. This begs all the more reason that capping to a 3 Status Effect threshold on Condition Overload along with whatever procs you can already initally achieve on your melee weapon easily dumbs down any concept you want to play around with Condition Overload across your arsenal, no matter how the multiplier is adjusted. 

It’s a toss (out the window) delicate form of finesse status gameplay for caveman unga-bunga function. 

so what do u expect me to reply when u basically quote me with different words ?

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Loza03:

I understand it's unfortunate - I also enjoyed big CO setups, and used them when farming for Toroids near Fortuna's launch - but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

 

CO's heights were... absurd, if I'm being honest. If this is what it takes to bring Melee back in line (on both ends of the spectrum), then it's an egg I'm willing to have broken.

agree

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

3 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

I see this more as a problem of most procs in and of themselves not being powerful enough.
If they were, the 6 procs in your examples would be the bonus of a high status chance weapon.
But currently: Cold, Toxin, Electric, Gas, Blast, Magnetic, Radiation, Impact, Puncture, (and Void) aren't great and don't scale.
Honestly the Heat Proc buff coming in the next update is nearly as important as this melee rework, and is a step in the right direction.
 

Did I just read this correctly? Gas doesn’t scale? What is this information?

Gas is the one status ailment that trip dips when calculating damage, so it has scaleability.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 hour ago, (NSW)zook-pl said:

Guys you speak a lot of about high level content and need of CO to do it.

But you know for new player getting CO is road thru hell. You need have 5k kills of specific enemy witch exist only on one planet and stop to spawn if you stay in mission to long. To have statistical means of except to drop it once. I don't think CO is good way...

Or you can be like me when Condition Overload was first introduced and get it first try via transmutation. ‘-‘

[GreyEnneract]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Did I just read this correctly? Gas doesn’t scale? What is this information?

Gas is the one status ailment that trip dips when calculating damage, so it has scaleability.

The real stealth gas days are over.
Gas truly scaling would have it on an even higher pedestal than Slash, as it can be applied to every weapon.
Its current use is just for niche cases, mostly with Mag and generally the Zenistar.
 

[GreyEnneract]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Or you can be like me when Condition Overload was first introduced and get it first try via transmutation. ‘-‘

Unrelated, but GL getting Split Flights.