Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[CodeUltimate]

1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Nah, even with 0.5 disposition you would still get enough status chance from a riven to reach 100%

not all existing rivens would be able to reach 100% status chance if they were to nerf it's riven dispo too much. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

27 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Just for note:
Blood rush weapons get between 7~13x total damage multiplication on red crit (from critting itself). The few 3.0 crit damage weapons with organ shatter are at 15x. Unless its a weapon on harrow or with maiming strike (remembering that non-zaw n gram P weapons that have the crit to make it work have S#&$/less than half the base damage of a proper weapon or are 2m range) hitting 4 th tier crits means climbing up to 3.5 or even 4x combo and having sacrificial steel.

What weapon you kno that's naturally proccing 9procs? None. The most is 6 atm and with a 30% condition overload it's only about a 5x increase. If you going to go out the way to proc 3more procs i say you deserve it. At 9 that's 10x. I'll say make it 40% At 6procs you at 7.5x at 9procs you'll be at 20x. Currently 6procs of condition overload is 16.7x i call it fair game 

[Xolgys]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb CodeUltimate:

not all existing rivens would be able to reach 100% status chance if they were to nerf it's riven dispo too much. 

u dont need 100% sc on the riven...u need it on the build and for that even a 0.5 riven dispo would grant enough status chance as a 5th status chance mod on the weapon.

[CodeUltimate]

Just now, Xydeth said:

u dont need 100% sc on the riven...u need it on the build and for that even a 0.5 riven dispo would grant enough status chance as a 5th status chance mod on the weapon.

with my current riven i only need 2 dual status mods + drifting contact and my riven to reach 100% this lets me mod the redeemer to not get diluted with a bunch of useless status procs. If they were to nerf the riven dispo too much the redeemer prime would need to get more useless status procs to be able to reach 100% sc and considering the nerfs to CO that wouldn't be beneficial. 8v

[Andele3025]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

What weapon you kno that's naturally proccing 9procs? None. The most is 6 atm and with a 30% condition overload it's only about a 5x increase. If you going to go out the way to proc 3more procs i say you deserve it.

Technically its currently around 70-80% of the weapon arsenal as the death of equip melee meant status procs from stances/quick attack+ so there is no downside between aoe status gun+artax+quick attacks while rapid combo buildup is limited to Excal and Ash iirc.

[Andele3025]

22 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

I don't think redeemer prime would survive a disposition nerf because you wouldn't be able to get 100% status chance anymore. xd

RP hits 100% status no matter what, 280% from elementals+drifting is optimal either way.

[CodeUltimate]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

RP hits 100% status no matter what, 280% from elementals+drifting is optimal either way.

when they nerf CO you will see it is not optimal anymore. xd

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

3 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Technically its currently around 70-80% of the weapon arsenal as the death of equip melee meant status procs from stances/quick attack+ so there is no downside between aoe status gun+artax+quick attacks while rapid combo buildup is limited to Excal and Ash iirc.

Ok make it 40% cap at 10procs. 28x damage maxed. Sounds fair to me lol

[ShadowFel]

I generally like these changes, but I have a few suggestions/concerns regarding a couple of these changes:

• While the removal of the insanity that is Maiming Strike and its various semi-intended synergies will help push the melee meta away from slide attacks, that isn't the only reason why slide attacks are favored.  A large part of the reason is that they are fast, wide-hitting, and mobile attacks, and I'm not sure the additional options being provided will manage to win out against that combination.  I hope they will.
• Part of the reason charge attacks (which will now be heavy attacks) never caught on is because they are slower, and since melee attacks could often cleave through enemies in a single rapid slice, slowing down to deliver a heavier blow never had much value (especially since they were so slow most enemies would move out of the way by the time they went off).  Hopefully, heavy attacks are faster and more fluid than charge attacks were, but this could still pose a problem for their value in combat.
• Having a dedicated block button, regardless of whether the player is using primary, secondary, quick melee, or dedicated melee, would make that mechanic far more accessible and valuable to players.  As a controller user, I recognize that the number of buttons on a controller is a significant restriction here, but I would hope that this could find its way in in the future.
• Speaking of quick melee, what's happening to that?  Will it remain in its current state (accessible combos, auto-blocking, etc.), is it being reverted to its prior state (only a single, basic combo), or is it getting changed into a newer state? (I get that it's not being removed entirely)
• Significant knockback is counter to melee's intended usage.  This is why Telos Boltace is one of my least favorite melee weapons currently, despite the fact that I otherwise rather like the Tonfa class.  I would hope that the knockback that some combos and slams will have will be minor enough that a melee follow-up is still readily possible (also please rethink the Telos Boltace's passive effect).
• Covert Lethality doesn't just affect dagger finishers, it also boosts their base damage significantly.  I would hope that, in the rebalance, daggers (and maybe dual daggers too?) will have a significant damage increase to compensate for the loss of their powerful, signature mod.
• Sword and Shield weapons have long been in a weird spot of only being slightly better at blocking, or equally effective, compared to many other weapon types.  This would seem to be a great opportunity to rectify that, and give shields a much broader blocking angle compared to other weapon classes.  I don't care how long the Tenno have studied the blade, a shield remains a far superior blocking implement compared to a Nikana.
• Just a reminder to make sure hitboxes are hooked up correctly and that they make sense!  Scythes have long been victim to having hitboxes that make reliably hitting enemies difficult, and sometimes having hitboxes in strange places.  While I expect that this will be fixed in the new system with new combos, I would hate to see scythes, or any melee class, suffer in this new system because their hitboxes are unintuitive or otherwise adversarial.
• Thank you for letting Spring-Loaded Blade stack!

[Shinigami_Greed]

40 minutes ago, MadMattPrime said:

You're dead either way from one hit unless you got a good harrow on your team so it doesn't matter how high your your combo counter or how good you claim too be, You would be just tickling the enemies due to how ridiculous armor scaling on enemies. 

I think what he's also forgetting is that enemies that high level don't exist under normal circumstances.  It takes an inordinately long amount of time to push any endless mission that long, and DE only very rarely runs an event or tactical alert with levels like that... and usually as a joke, at that. 

There is no reason to take into account enemies over level 80 most of the time. 

[MadMattPrime]

2 minutes ago, Shinigami_Greed said:

There is no reason to take into account enemies over level 80 most of the time. 

There is, its called Arbitration depending on where and what type (usually disruption or excavation which are the more rewarding ones based on time spent and not boring ones).

[Shinigami_Greed]

Just now, MadMattPrime said:

There is, its called Arbitration depending on where and what type (usually disruption or excavation which are the more rewarding ones based on time spent and not boring ones).

They start at level 80, and slowly increase.  Again, level 1000-4000 is unreasonable to account for. 

[Andele3025]

14 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

when they nerf CO you will see it is not optimal anymore. xd

Not if CO gets nerfed because Redeemer already didnt need a CO supplement to work as it went of 400 base damage (800 if you were just doing charge attacks tho that is technically less dps) that scaled with combo. Depending on numbers it will either stay the same-ish without much ramp or if DE nerfs its status or has low alterations to the pellet damage it will further increase the CO usage as some people for god knows what reason currently like to use it for crit.

TLDR: it will unless heavy attack redeemer is even stronger.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Ok make it 40% cap at 10procs. 28x damage maxed. Sounds fair to me lol

You are free to ignore reality for power creep, ok.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

1 minute ago, MadMattPrime said:

There is, its called Arbitration depending on where and what type (usually disruption or excavation which are the more rewarding ones based on time spent and not boring ones).

Dont forget endless void fissures that reward you for the being in the mission longer instead of just doing 20mins..Eso that be over lvl 100 around wave 6-7

[MadMattPrime]

Just now, Shinigami_Greed said:

They start at level 80, and slowly increase.  Again, level 1000-4000 is unreasonable to account for. 

1000 is not unreasonable with Octavia in mot for a few hours 6 or was it 7 to be precise but it gets boring (invincibility spam) and the excess argon crystals are for the lols as they degrade and you don't know what to to do with them. 

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Not if CO gets nerfed because Redeemer already didnt need a CO supplement to work as it went of 400 base damage (800 if you were just doing charge attacks tho that is technically less dps) that scaled with combo. Depending on numbers it will either stay the same-ish without much ramp or if DE nerfs its status or has low alterations to the pellet damage it will further increase the CO usage as some people for god knows what reason currently like to use it for crit.

TLDR: it will unless heavy attack redeemer is even stronger.

You are free to ignore reality for power creep, ok.

Atm 6procs of condition overload is 16.7x which is fine 7 procs which is 26x which is fine. Once you start hit 8procs 42x 9procs 68x 10procs 109x things start to get insane. 28x at 10procs capped at 10 is fair 

[Andele3025]

14 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

I generally like these changes, but I have a few suggestions/concerns regarding a couple of these changes:

• While the removal of the insanity that is Maiming Strike and its various semi-intended synergies will help push the melee meta away from slide attacks, that isn't the only reason why slide attacks are favored.  A large part of the reason is that they are fast, wide-hitting, and mobile attacks, and I'm not sure the additional options being provided will manage to win out against that combination.  I hope they will.

Meta already isnt slide attacks, its the laziest but far from most effective tactic. Unless you are talking zaws n gram prime/recent op company that spiked top end damage by 30%+ for their stats and benefits.

14 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

• Part of the reason charge attacks (which will now be heavy attacks) never caught on is because they are slower, and since melee attacks could often cleave through enemies in a single rapid slice, slowing down to deliver a heavier blow never had much value (especially since they were so slow most enemies would move out of the way by the time they went off).  Hopefully, heavy attacks are faster and more fluid than charge attacks were, but this could still pose a problem for their value in combat.

Speed itself of the charge attacks wouldnt have been a problem if they didnt disrupt attack pace with small animation locks, in almost all cases dont have the damage to be worth the time charging (iirc scythes and the tatsu/2h nikana with forced slash proc, nikanas with notable enough multi being rare exceptions) and that you couldnt release it early for less damage.

14 minutes ago, ShadowFel said:

• Covert Lethality doesn't just affect dagger finishers, it also boosts their base damage significantly.  I would hope that, in the rebalance, daggers (and maybe dual daggers too?) will have a significant damage increase to compensate for the loss of their powerful, signature mod.

CL flat damage actually stacks after all other base mods, so its not that significant compared to both losing out on instant kill option (and daggers hopefully getting a few better stabby moves/well aimable thrust attacks instead of the 2 derp dashes with side hitboxes.

 

[T004]

I think  that hold swap button to manual block or auto block should have toggle set on/off at the option menu. 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Hey guys can you take a second look at naramon?

To reflect the new melee mechanics and bindings?

[Andele3025]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Atm 6procs of condition overload is 16.7x which is fine 7 procs which is 26x which is fine. Once you start hit 8procs 42x 9procs 68x 10procs 109x things start to get insane. 28x at 10procs capped at 10 is fair 

No, not really, 400 hits without dropping combo doesnt compare much to even as basic setup of "bullet jump while slinging pox for 3 status (2 from elementals+guaranteed toxin) and do 2-3 attacks with a good stance for 3-4 more".

Tho if you mean currently without the idea of "melee 3.0 phase 2 changing stats balance" anything is "fine" because kitguns and zaws, etc are a thing with their rivens and as such actual mathematical balance is thrown out of the window into a shark pit.

[Deifrost]

Since Covert Lethality is being moved from daggers to Parazon, can we have another DPS mod for daggers? 

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2019-10-18 at 11:23 PM, lexandritte said:

I'm just gonna say, I'm looking forward to changes.

I expect a lot of discussion about Warframe for the next few weeks are going to be "DE ruined WF by nerfing my killstick".

I say, bring it.

I can't think of anything more annoying that a Volt with Atterax and a macro spin combo flying around me, one-shotting everything. You are very optimal, unnamed Volt, but do you enjoy the game at this point? Mashing one button again and again, the screen flying by so fast you can barely make out the level?

I haven't used Maiming strike in a couple of years. Melee at this point is "Press E to Win" button. Not "Press E to have fun". There's just no challenge. The most satisfying moments I had in WF (after 4.5k+ hours) were not seeing a rain of red crits, but pulling off a chunky ground slam or an accidental Saryn-Void-Dash combo that sent a Spored-up Grineer flying into another room, had him explode on landing and infect 20 other dudes. I remember that random moment from ESO from months ago more than most things I did in the game.

Warframes biggest problem is not even so much content drought, as it is stagnation. Why engage with new content when you have your super-opti-maxed spin-to-win 35-roll-riven arcane-stack build? "Lol DE brought out a new weapons but it's lower stats than Plague Kripath Zaw, useless content, what are they doing." Tatsu doesn't have the best stats in the world. But hot wisp's ass damn, does that weapon feel satisfying to swing around. I'm still basically unkillable, because this is Warframe. I'm killing enemies fast enough. I complete the missions. But I FEEL every swing of Tatsu, where's the Atterax spin attack makes me nautious. I'd rather enemies die two seconds later while I get an immense satisfaction from it, than "optimizing" my way through the game, cutting off every second and adding up every damage bonus while feeling empty inside.

New melee phase, new horizons, new meta to figure out. There will always be new meta. You optimized boiis will optimize away. But at least so far this update seems to be adding more satisfaction and fun to the game.

And games are about having fun.

You talk about fun a lot, even suggesting that people playing efficiently are not having fun.  I don't want to yell or fight, I want to give you the perspective of that unnamed Volt (even though my main volt build is centered around guns, shields and discharge.) spinning around killing everything with a whip (even though none of my whips have a potato or any forma on them.)

Two scenarios, both fighting a large group of enemies, high level.  Not even in a game mode where kill speed matters for the objective, like ESO which is literally built around kill efficiency, or survival where life support drops from enemies mean that enemies killed quickly keep life support up higher so you don't have to die while trying to use a tower use towers that are better left for emergencies.  Just a high level mission, maybe sortie 3 exterminate, something like that.

In scenario 1, our volt is highly mobile, moving at a breakneck pace as he whips around, pun intended.  He's a streak of electricity and blades as he slides past a pack, never presenting a target. His speed not only helps with kill efficiency, it keeps him moving, since as a volt his main source of the-not-dying comes from shields and movement.  Staying on the move is best, and being able to kill while doing it helps.  After a long time of being a beyblade, it CAN get a little boring, but you're still moving through packs of enemies, going fast.  I like going fast.  Using the movement system and momentum stacking to blitz around the map, even not killing things, is part of the power fantasy.  Pure speed.  A blinding war machine, terrifying to the enemy.

In scenario 2, he's still fast; it's Volt after all.  His combos are a blur.  But combos require that you be AT the enemy, not moving past them.  Now, he has a handful of enemies lifted, locked in staggers, bleeding, and he's looking great doing it.  But he's AT the enemy.  He's presenting a far less mobile target while pulling off a combo.  And every other enemy on the map, all with perfect accuracy, are now looking at him.  There's no enemy friendly-fire and if radiation, Shadows of the dead and Chaos tell us anything, it's that it wouldn't matter if there was.  Every other enemy on the map is going danger close and is going to start mag dumping volt while he's in the middle of the pack of enemies comboing them, however briefly that may be.  Bombard rockets that would have just barely missed our spinning top of doom are now finding their mark.  Supra fire that would have missed is now all concentrated on our comboing Volt.  It doesn't matter how much health and shields you have at high levels.  A lack of armor like Volt has will result in enemy fire tearing your frame to pieces in seconds.  And you can't combo if you're dead.

I know which one of those scenarios is fun for ME (a lot of people praising the nerfs completely seem to miss that fun is subjective.) and it's not the one where I'm dying, or stressed that I'm going to go down at any second during my cool looking combo because of how strong enemy damage scales.  We should be the ones one-shotting, not getting one-shot.  Getting killed so quickly means that you can't look cool doing combos and parkour.  Game balance at higher levels dictates the speed meta.  Removing the meta does not solve the game balance issue.

[She11by]

13 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Most players only played around 30-60 minutes in an endless/arbitrations run (I am one of those players because I see it as a waste of time, inefficient, and boring). Seeing this "nerf" has no effect on us type of players

You are playing a game, it's a waste of time and inefficiency by default, we are looking for fun here.

For a lot of people what is important to you is a "waste of time" for them but they do not tell you to play differently.

 

By gimping fun and deep mechanics like Condition overload and making it more casual you are taking away motivation to play and improve for a lot of players.

You will lose them this way.

 

It's pretty weird to see that some guys are happy that something was nerfed just because they don't use it and even tell stories like " most players don't use 'insert anything' " ( i.e. this player ) so do whatever you want.

 

There is almost no point in nerfing something in PvE game if it doesn't break anyone's experience like Saryn & Equinox and they are still in the game by the way.

 

[Bioboygamer]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

You talk about fun a lot, even suggesting that people playing efficiently are not having fun.  I don't want to yell or fight, I want to give you the perspective of that unnamed Volt (even though my main volt build is centered around guns, shields and discharge.) spinning around killing everything with a whip (even though none of my whips have a potato or any forma on them.)

Two scenarios, both fighting a large group of enemies, high level.  Not even in a game mode where kill speed matters for the objective, like ESO which is literally built around kill efficiency, or survival where life support drops from enemies mean that enemies killed quickly keep life support up higher so you don't have to die while trying to use a tower use towers that are better left for emergencies.  Just a high level mission, maybe sortie 3 exterminate, something like that.

In scenario 1, our volt is highly mobile, moving at a breakneck pace as he whips around, pun intended.  He's a streak of electricity and blades as he slides past a pack, never presenting a target. His speed not only helps with kill efficiency, it keeps him moving, since as a volt his main source of the-not-dying comes from shields and movement.  Staying on the move is best, and being able to kill while doing it helps.  After a long time of being a beyblade, it CAN get a little boring, but you're still moving through packs of enemies, going fast.  I like going fast.  Using the movement system and momentum stacking to blitz around the map, even not killing things, is part of the power fantasy.  Pure speed.  A blinding war machine, terrifying to the enemy.

In scenario 2, he's still fast; it's Volt after all.  His combos are a blur.  But combos require that you be AT the enemy, not moving past them.  Now, he has a handful of enemies lifted, locked in staggers, bleeding, and he's looking great doing it.  But he's AT the enemy.  He's presenting a far less mobile target while pulling off a combo.  And every other enemy on the map, all with perfect accuracy, are now looking at him.  There's no enemy friendly-fire and if radiation, Shadows of the dead and Chaos tell us anything, it's that it wouldn't matter if there was.  Every other enemy on the map is going danger close and is going to start mag dumping volt while he's in the middle of the pack of enemies comboing them, however briefly that may be.  Bombard rockets that would have just barely missed our spinning top of doom are now finding their mark.  Supra fire that would have missed is now all concentrated on our comboing Volt.  It doesn't matter how much health and shields you have at high levels.  A lack of armor like Volt has will result in enemy fire tearing your frame to pieces in seconds.  And you can't combo if you're dead.

I know which one of those scenarios is fun for ME (a lot of people praising the nerfs completely seem to miss that fun is subjective.) and it's not the one where I'm dying, or stressed that I'm going to go down at any second during my cool looking combo because of how strong enemy damage scales.  We should be the ones one-shotting, not getting one-shot.  Getting killed so quickly means that you can't look cool doing combos and parkour.  Game balance at higher levels dictates the speed meta.  Removing the meta does not solve the game balance issue.

Okay, I just want to say this. I'm on the opposite side of this - I'm not even at the point where I'm confident in my ability to do Sorties even with my tankiest frame. I have no interest in doing the super-difficult game modes, and I'm generally in favor of making "spin2win" less of a thing, since it means that melee loadouts are super-heavily weighted towards a handful of mods.

But I have nothing but the upmost respect for you here. You're providing a counterpoint, but you're being respectful and thoughtful in how you do it. You're not blindly attacking everything the other person said, regardless of whether or not there was any truth to it. You're sharing your opinion and giving insight into a different perspective that others might not initially see. 

We may have different views on these melee changes and the validity of the current gameplay, but you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I applaud your poise and levelheadedness.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

Truthfully imma just end up using my kohm shooting about 2mill damage a mag not counting slash procs anyway. Because if things going to get nerfed that bad what's the point. Lol