Jump to content

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE


Recommended Posts

Greetings, Close-Combat Tenno!
 
This rather lengthy Dev Workshop will cover the overall progression with our Melee Rework and some of the changes that you can expect to see when Phase 2 is released in Update 26. Update 26 brings change to Warframe - it iterates on the game and Melee is no exception. For months Phase 1 has been in your hands, and it’s time for Phase 2. What follows is a detailed overview of our design direction and intentions with this new Phase. 

We want you to know how your use of melee and feedback on the systems have helped form Phase 2, and how some changes are included to allow for a more cohesive Melee experience. Our tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that overall. 

Previously we made several changes to the Melee system (as detailed in the Melee Rework Phase 1 Dev Workshop thread) including:

  • Introducing a new quick-melee attack
  • Full VFX overhaul on elemental damage types
  • Aimed Slam Attacks instead of impacting directly below an airborne player. 

While select changes are to be rolled back (yes - see below before you react), the rest of the system served as a good foundation for this much more expansive Phase 2.

Please bear in mind that these changes are not set in stone, and some aspects of the new Melee system will be tweaked during the usual QA process. There are some more features being added later on, introduced in Melee Rework Phase 3 at a later date.
 
So what is covered in Melee Update Phase 2?

THE GAMEPLAY
   1 ) The Return of Equipped Melee and Manual Blocking!
   2 ) Dodge Cancelling and Tactical Dodging
THE COMBOS
   3 ) Stance Changes, Combos and You!
   4 ) Smoother Combo Transitions
   5 ) Combo Counter Rework
THE TOOLS
   6 ) Changes to Slam Attacks
   7 ) Goodbye Channeling, Hello Heavy Attacks and Lifting!
   8 ) Weapon Stats, Mastery Limits and General Melee Changes
   9 ) Mod Rebalancing / Functionality
   10) Exalted Weapons
   11) The Screens: Arsenal Changes
THE TECHNICAL BITS
   12) Aim Assist
   13) Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!
THE FUTURE
   14) Channelling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode” and Future Plans!

As you can probably tell, this Dev workshop is going to be a bit of a lengthy one, so make sure you sit comfortably, drink a nice cup of Greedy Milk and get ready to read all about how you can better turn your enemies into salsa with your favorite melee weapon!

THE GAMEPLAY

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!
One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same. 
 
The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode! 

Check out a clip of this in action from the Devstream! 

 

We also have redesigned the utility of blocking: Blocking will now prevent 100% of damage,  with a blocking angle that is dependent on the melee weapon equipped. All successful Blocks will also add to the new Combo Counter!

BlockingAngleDiagram.png

In the above example, sword and shield weapons (such as the Silva & Aegis) have a blocking angle of 70 degrees, centered on the front of the player, where as a dagger weapon (such as the Dark Dagger) will only have a blocking angle of 45 degrees. (Previously all weapons had a locked blocking angle of 45 degrees upon the introduction of Auto Blocking.) 

2. Dodge Cancel and Tactical Dodging
One of the older and larger complaints of the melee combo system has been the animation locks. Completing 7 step combos feels great, but the animations completely lock you into the movements. We are introducing two new ways to put more control in your hands:

  • Dodge Cancel - Allows a player to activate a dodge any time during a melee attack to end the combo immediately and dodge out of the way.  
  • Tactical Dodging - Dodging while blocking now performs this Tactical Dodge, keeping the distance short, and allowing you to remain within melee range. This is an effort to not break the flow of combat after cancelling out of an attack, but also if you need to make a quick escape!

Here is a clip of Dodge Cancel and Tactical Dodge in action! 

 

THE COMBOS

3. Stance Changes, Combos and You
By far, the biggest change you will see in the new Melee system is the alterations made to Stances, as well how Combos interact with one another. In the old (current) system, Combos are an effect of button presses, all leading into a chain of animations. In Melee Rework Phase 2, attacks are buttery-smooth and adaptable!

This rework of Combos applies to every Stance, not just the weapon types. For example, Tempo Royale (a Heavy Weapon Stance Mod) will still have different Combos than the Cleaving Whirlwind Stance, even though both Stances fit the Heavy Weapon melee type. The difference now, is that both share a design that uses common movements and attack types.

We also wanted melee attacks to feel more intuitive. For example, if you are aiming down the sights of a primary weapon or blocking incoming fire, and then hit the melee button, you most likely want to get in close! If you are not inputting a movement key while meleeing, it’s usually a sign you want to finish off your target. We wanted the new Combos to reflect that that existing movement, and so the new inputs reflect that situational awareness.

In most cases, the following improvements can be applied to any given Stance Mod equipped to a weapon (not just individual weapon types!):

  • Forward Combo (Forward + Melee) - This allows you to attack without initially interrupting movement with the first 1-3 swings (depending on the weapon Stance). The last attack in the sequence will loop seamlessly into the first, so that you can keep a level of mobility while attacking.
  • Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) - This move is usually a distance-closing opener, bringing you closer to the enemy and getting you within range to continue a harder-hitting string of attacks. The beginning or end of this combo can have a slam effect, allowing you to control the enemy, and during the mid-point of the combo, attacks will be large and sweeping, allowing multiple enemies to be hit.
  • Neutral Combo (Melee button only) - Hard hitting, movement-free attacks to allow a player to destroy their target. The last attack can either have a knockdown effect, or throw them into the air and hold them there, if one set of strikes does not finish the job.
  • Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) - First hit will likely be a longer thrust or throw of a weapon to increase range. Further attacks will be hard-hitting, and will often finish in a ragdoll effect or a Lifting Attack, as opposed to a knockdown or stagger. Lifting attacks are detailed in Section 7 of this workshop.
  • Air Combo (Melee while Jumping) - Perform a combo in the air without sacrificing movement.
  • Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) - Holds the player in place while the combo completes, and overrides the slam attack angle to keep the action going!

MP2-ProGamerMove.gif

Pro Gamer Move Example: Use the first, opening attack in the Forward Tactical Combo (Forward + Block/Aim + Melee) to close the distance on the target, then transition into either a Neutral Combo (Melee Only) or a Neutral Tactical Combo (Block/Aim + Melee) to finish off the target.

4. Smoother Combo Transitions
In the old system, only the first follow up attack inputted would remain in ‘memory’ and would execute at the end of the initial attack animation. Any kind of input entered after the initial follow up was ignored until the next attack had started. In the new system, the next attack is being constantly updated, depending on the last input received. 

This allows for last-second decisions on combo changes to occur immediately after the first attack has finished. No more waiting for a combo attack animation to end before you can start spamming the attack button again! Embrace the fluidity!

5. Combo Counter Rework
The Combo Counter will be getting a new functionality pass. Rather than just providing flat bonuses to damage, the Combo Counter will now also act as an expendable resource for new heavy hitting combat: HEAVY ATTACKS! This will replace channeling's key binding, and Section 7 below covers those changes. This counter will be increased in a more granular and rapid way, and can be built by using melee attacks, blocking damage, radial damage from Slam Attacks and hits from a thrown weapon (such as the Glaive).

As an expendable resource the Combo Counter should be easy to replenish, and the changes made should reflect how easy you can acquire and spend the Combo Counter resource. In addition, the ‘heaviness’ of an attack will have a measured difference on the amount of Combo Counter it increases. As a general rule, lighter, swift attacks will give lower additions to the Combo Counter than slower, heavy attacks will. Swing for the fences, Tenno!

A SIDE NOTE: as a result of this new Combo Counter system, certain Mods are changing, but there are also some Mods whose stats will remain untouched, such as Body Count, as it retains the same functionality. The Mods that will see some changes are listed below, in Section 9.

THE TOOLS

6. Changes to Slam Attacks
The ragdoll effect of the Slam Attack is being removed (with some weapon-specific exceptions *cough*JatKittag*cough*), however it is being replaced with an effect that will push enemies back or knock them down, giving the player some breathing room, and setting the enemy units up for follow-up attacks.

Melee Rework: Phase 1 introduced the global use of ragdoll effects on Slam Attacks, so this is the second item to be rolled back, and replaced with a better way to rain down death from above! A .gif shows this off better than words alone, so enjoy a visual of what to expect: 

MP2-HeavySlamAttacks.gif

7. Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status
Channeling will be saying its final farewells in the Melee Rework: Phase 2 update, and instead is being replaced with a new form of Heavy Attack, as well as a new Lifted status effect. As we said before, Channeling Mods will also be changed to support this new system, as well as providing a larger pool of utility to choose from in your builds.

These are the changes planned:

  • Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 
  • Heavy Slam Attacks (Jump + Alt-Fire for Melee) - This new Slam Attack will create a new effect on targets, known as the LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft. Again, if you do not have any Combo Counter active, this will act as a Heavy Slam attack without a damage bonus, and minimal Lifting Status.

Here is a clip of this in action!  

8. Weapon Stats and Mastery Limits
With this new change, there is a broad-sweeping review of Melee weapons and how they function with the new system. Expect the following changes to all melee weapons across the board:

  • Mastery Rank - Weapons will be reviewed to make sure their function and power are aligned with an appropriate Mastery Rank, similar to passes made on Primary and Secondary weapons. Full details will be in the Update Notes! 
  • Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up. 
  • Base Range - Along with damage, range is also being increased to make sure you get the most chop for your buck. While base range is being increased, Range Mods are going to have a different calculation applied to them. This is detailed in Section 9.
  • Mod and Arcane Channeling Functionality - As mentioned above, any Mods or Arcanes with functionality tied to Channeling will have their stats altered to increase Lifted Status, Heavy Attack damage and Combo Counter modifiers.

9. Mod Re-balancing and Functionality Changes
Since the base damage of melee is being buffed some notable Mods are getting a balance and/or functionality pass. With the wide amount of changes happening to Channeling and Heavy Attacks, some Mods have had to be reworked into other systems or have had changes to the way their damage scales. 

For full transparency, some of these are nerfs to specific Mods, but we felt these were necessary to truly allow Phase 2 to be treated as a new beginning for melee. Our intention is to create engaging melee and Modding variety, which is not possible when there is a one-best loadout or single Mod that can kill almost anything in the game. We love killing things effectively, but we also want the combat to be engaging and feel powerful. Spin attacks still exist, but the repetition of them is something we’re trying not to force you to use. To reiterate: Select tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that. 

At the moment, the current list of mods and their proposed changes are listed below.

  • Amalgam Organ Shatter - Will be changed from Charge Attacks to Heavy Attacks.
  • Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 
  • Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 
  • Corrupt Charge - Adds a large amount to the Combo Counter, but significantly reduces the time it takes for the Combo Counter to drain.
  • Covert Lethality - Is being removed from Dagger Weapons and is now being applied to a new system that is shipping alongside Melee Rework: Phase 2 (hint: Parazon).
  • Dispatch Overdrive - Increases player movement on a Heavy Attack hit.
  • Enduring Affliction - Increases the Status Chance on enemies suffering from the Lifted Status.
  • Enduring Strike - Increases the Combo Counter when hitting Lifted enemies.
  • Focus Energy - Add Electrical damage to an attack, as well as increasing Combo Counter generation.
  • Focused Defense - Adds an additional 20 degrees to a weapons blocking angle.
  • Gladiator Mod Set - Adds a multiplier with the Combo Counter up to 60% for the whole set.
  • Guardian Derision - Will add more to the Combo Counter for blocking hits. (Note: The Taunt mechanic is still in place.)
  • Killing Blow - Pure, unadulterated damage buff to Heavy Attacks.
  • Life Strike - Heavy Attacks will now regenerate Health.
  • Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.
  • Quickening - Increases Melee Speed, but lowers the chance to generate Combo Counter on a hit / block.
  • Reach / Primed Reach - Will now increase range in a way that has been normalized. In the previous incarnation, long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit, while short-range weapons were barely seeing any increase at all.
  • Reflex Coil - Increased Combo Point Efficiency when using Heavy Attacks.
  • Spring-Loaded Blade - Will now provide a maximum of 3 additional stacks of Melee Range.
  • True Punishment - will still increase Critical Chance, but has a chance to not build Combo Counter on a hit / block.
  • Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, increased to 60% at max level.

Again, some of these changes are subject to review and are still being finalized. We are sure that as Melee Rework: Phase 2 rolls out, there will also be additional balance passes as usability and effectiveness are used (or abused).

10. Exalted Weapons
As expected, all melee-based Exalted Weapons will also receive the Phase 2 functionality treatment, gaining access to the combo changes. For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks), so if you want a preview of the Combo system, you should check out the Monkey King!

11. New Screens: Arsenal Changes!
Part of Update 26 involves a change of the Arsenal Screen, and how information is displayed. In the current system, your Arsenal screen looks something like this:

OldArse.png

In Update 26, this screen is being reorganized to include Loadouts, Companions and Vehicles in tabs, while also giving more information about a weapon when selected. See the work-in-progress example below:

NewArse.png

As you can see, new stats for Heavy Attacks and Heavy Slam have been added, with channeling statistics removed. Please note, the stats in the above screen may not represent the final numbers, as we go through the usual balance passes.

THE TECHNICAL BITS

12. Selective Aim Assist
Aim assist can be a help or a hindrance depending on what type of attack you wish to perform. While the current system either applies to all or none (on or off), the new system will have more intelligence on aim assist on a per-attack basis. As a general rule under the new system, Aim Assist will be disabled for almost all attacks in the Forward and Tactical Forward Combos, and enabled for most of the Neutral and Tactical Neutral Combo attacks. Of course if you don’t wish to use aim assist at all, you can disable it from the settings menu as normal.

13. Sticky Fingers when Equipping Melee!
Another common issue in user feedback was the unequipping of Gear Items (like the Codex Scanner), or dropping the ‘football’ (usually a pickup for Mobile Defense or Sabotage Missions) when equipping melee or using a melee attack. This has now been changed so that you will no longer drop items or unequip Gear Items when either equipping melee or using a Melee Attack! 

THE FUTURE

14. Lastly: Channeling 2.0 AKA “Rage Mode”
There has been a lot of discussion around this addition, and while it will not be included in the Phase 2 update, there is a lot of work being put into its application. This system is very special and we want to make sure that it is not just a cool addition, but that it has roots in Warframes lore, and a story behind it. This is something we want to implement with a lot of in-game fanfare and details will become available as progress is made.

For now, that’s it!

If you have any feedback on these proposed changes, please feel free to respond to this thread. Remember that feedback should be concise, constructive and civil. If there is something you don’t like, remember to tell us why, and what you would like to see instead, or if there is something you like the sound of, remember to tell us why you think it will help and how you would like to use it!

Thank you for reading this wall of text and expect to see Phase 2 arriving SOON™ 
 

EDIT: Seen a few replies concerned about the change of range to weapons such as the Cassowar. With that in mind, I made the following for you to see how things look side-by-side.

THE SETUP:

Cassowar
- Prime Reach 7/10 (120% on Public / +2.9 on Dev Build)
- Stance Mod
- No other Mods or Damage / Range Boosters

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

tl;dr: Melee 3.0 mockup

All in all this rework looks pretty f**king incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is a clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 

 

Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack suddenly comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Being able to seamlessly use block at any time adds an amazing amount of utility to a player's toolkit. If DE did decide to implment an 'anytime, anywhere' block I would hope they reconsider blocking not always negating 100% of the damage in all cases (maybe except for parries?).  A weapon having variable block cones, block %, and possibly even parry windows gives DE more stats to experiment with that make sense.  Why throw this design space away needlessly?

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential. I say this because action legends such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, Nier: Automota, etc, have shown such an incredible path forward by having one unified 'action combat' mode.  This doesn't mean there can't be an other way but Warframe's firearm/melee modes do not seem to be an improvement over what those legends have done.

Also it's worth really driving home DE could literally create the most incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a somewhat moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter.

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do. 🙂

Update 10/31/2019: The Old Blood

Can confirm that dedicated melee and firearm modes/focus on holstering are still indeed holding Warframe's combat back.  Dual wielding a glaive and a single hand sidearm exemplify this the most.  As in can not use heavy attack while dual wielding because heavy attacks are gated behind their own mode.

Can not use heavy attacks directly from firearms.  Player has to go firearms > quick melee attack to enable heavy attacks.  Which again... is awkward as it sounds.

Also very questionable why heavy attack needs its own key when it simply can be a charged attack.

Combos sort of have universal mapping.

Not all combos represent single attack focus OR AoE focus OR travel

Wall attacks had their travel distance nerfed into the absolute ground.

Heavy Slam Attacks FEEL very and look very good.

Combo counter as a resource is very interesting and opens up opportunities for 'combo efficiency build'.  However, Blood Rush + Body Count still supersedes most case uses of heavy attacks.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awesome, thanks. Time to read all this!

EDIT: So I don't see anything involving Riven Mods which I am going to assume is a different thread, but with what we have, here are my concerns:

  • Range will remain the most powercreep stat after these changes as it has for years and be reinforced even heavier. Even if "normalized", the most effective method of killing will be around weapons with the largest range.
    • Riven Mod range values also seem concerning as this might reinforce getting high Disposition range weapons. "The Scoliac Problem" could be spreading to other weapons.
  • Condition Overload and Maiming Strike are being toned down. Now, I don't have a huge problem with this given how many buffs are also coming to the system, but this will heavily reinforce my first bullet: range. For example, Ninkondi Prime. Ninkondi Prime is quite a good weapon because of the IPS and Electricity. Even with the buffs it receives, the loss of applying more than 3 Condition Overload procs will have it lose out to something with a larger range. Since we don't have concrete numbers on what "normalization" on range looks like, I'm going to assume a polearm is still longer than a nunchuck by a visual amount. This change also cements Plague Kripath as the hands down best melee as you will be unable to get around the lack of innate Viral on a melee by utilizing more status procs than the Kripath. While the CO + Maiming combo is a huge outlier in terms of melee DPS, it's the only thing that saves sad weapons like the Machete. Hopefully those kinds of melee get a buff that is enough to outweigh this loss.
  • Slowing down the player. The fluidity of the combos on streams and in demos are really cool, however they look flashy and slower compared to current melee quick attacking + sliding. This may result in death compared to a slide attack. I am unsure how this plays in an Arbitration or higher level missions, so I will wait more to see if what I said holds true.
  • Knocking enemies. Stormpath on Telos Boltace highlights this immensely. If an enemy is knocked but not killed, you have failed to do what a weapon is designed to do. CC can be left to Warframe abilities and Magus Lockdown, but knocking enemies away from the player and not killing them will be counter-productive to striking the enemy in the first place. The way this can be addressed is to give something similar to Frost's Snowglobe ragdoll damage to ragdolled enemies from heavy attacks. This gives reason to slamming an enemy into a wall as it would do more considerable damage.

I just hope there is more competition in the melee category when this launches without heavily nerfing the player.

That's all I have to say at this time. Thank you for the workshop!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, changes to Melee. Took some time.

Because some things are not totally finalized, I will wait for the final changes in the update. For example:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come. 

I hope it's a lot of damage at least. ^__^

Can't wait to see what will happen to my Kripath... I will judge when I played the upcoming update.

If the Machete will get extremely powerful with the update, I think someone will be really angry. Imagine not having a Machete after 1000+ logins... ^__^   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the book! Gonna have to see how it plays ingame.

Not really sure what this means. Guessing meant "provide" stacks.

1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Spring-Loaded Blade - Will now proved a maximum of 3 additional stacks of Melee Range.


Also incoming panic sell.

1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So to begin with, the return of equipped melee and manual blocking is a big deal for me, both in terms of immersing myself in the feeling of piloting a Warframe, but also for the comfort of my play-style, so big thank you there. I know some of my friends will greatly appreciate this as well. I really can't stress enough how good [DE] is at correctly sorting through feedback and integrating change appropriately (rather than reverting) into existing systems.

Reviewing other peoples posts, I feel the need to point this out-

 

On 2019-10-18 at 1:09 PM, lihimsidhe said:

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

If the idea is to allow the block key to be engaged while holding a braton or primary ranged weapon, I'm all for that as well so long as it's drawing the melee weapon for the duration of the block key being pressed. So I like that idea.

In the case that it's not and I'm mistaken, here's a response to both that and the comments I saw both on the Devstream, region chat etc. It's pretty convoluted but I guess you can just ignore the post and leave me to this catharsis.

The Points of View: Melee blocking is pointless, should stay automatic, and melee mode shouldn't exist.

This point of view requires you to disregard the option of blocking as a key part of the identity and power of melee weapons. Having that strength be a personality trait of the fully dedicated usage of melee weapons is a defining trade-off to highlight advantages over larger ranged weapons like rifles and shotguns. This also highlights a strength of Skana & Sidearm should the melee system finally see implementation (hopefully with easy access to manual blocking) with Phase 3. Personally, I don't want to be capable of blocking 100% of the time at all times. I like the automatic blocking from Phase 1 as an option alongside manual blocking, but why even have a health bar or armour stat if I'm so easily capable of blocking everything mindlessly? Why wouldn't I want to be rewarded for my premeditated usage of my melee weapon to have the stronger manual block (assuming auto block in non-melee mod is still around and isn't 100% damage reduction)

The point of view also has to believe that choosing to not be mindful of your environment, and then leaving yourself no time to dodge is not the game successfully punishing you for failing to budget your timings. That doesn't sound like a dedicated mode failing you, that sounds more like no plan and poor reaction time failed you. If you can't find time to dodge in the first place, which in nearly every virtual and real world example is a sort of knee-jerk thing you do to respond to a situation that requires reaction, then there's probably no way to use blocking as a replacement, which in most virtual/real world environments is a premeditated action that you plan for, as failing to move out of the way of something is typically a safer failure than failing to stop the strike to hit it's target. I don't have any form of degree or anything that makes me confident enough to say I have the qualifications to make these statements, I'm just applying what I know from a few years of studying & practising Fencing technique and some HEMA training.

To add to this, blocking peppered gunfire or simple strikes makes sense when they're effortless or you're just plowing through hordes of normal enemies, while dodging large hulking strikes instead of blocking makes sense, less risk, more efficient action-wise, of course you'd dodge instead of block, even if you had your melee weapon already out. Suggesting that you should be able to instantly block a heavy attack while using a ranged weapon like a Braton or Rubico is a little strange, a defining vulnerability (or perhaps the better phrase is lack of opportunity) of a ranged play-style is a lack of ease-of-access to that sort of tactic (blocking).  Why not just dodge everything anyway? Why even have melee weapons? If dodging everything is how you do, then do, but I don't feel the need to catapult myself around the room when I could just have my Silva and Aegis out and work my way through the horde. I'll catapult myself around the room when I feel blocking or melee isn't the tool that needs to be applied in that moment

If the idea that there is no ranged specific play-style and all forms of combat are THE play-style (hence Gun & Blade), then even still, the block feature and dedicated melee or ranged modes makes sense as an option, as a part of a tool-set. Because, to be frank, manual blocking and dedicated melee mode is still only an option, all of these features and actions are just tools to solve problems, and that variety is refreshing. Because of that, I can't see how dedicated optional modes would be the "primary obstacle holding Warframe's combat back."

That's not to say that any given system can't be improved upon, I'm sure there's an amazing system that wraps everything up into one solid mode, but that would likely require more buttons than they (they being anyone, player or dev) would want to force you to map out

That's pretty much all I want to say about that, and isn't the reason for my post.

 

Dodge cancelling is wonderful and will hopefully add greater depth to the system. I foresee some skill (read as: Foresight) differentiating moments going away in favour of rewarding reactionary (read as: skilful)  play, which sounds like a good trade for this new action.

Rewarding blocking with 100% damage reduction was a boon I didn't expect to receive, so thank you for that.

Mod changes are welcome and the load-out screen looks great and very clean. Nice job!

Now for the actual reason for my post:

I'm curious about lifting, hover air combos, and throw-able melee's, especially one series in particular. I actually lost my list I made last spring after testing all the special weapons in the simulacrum, and I'm sorry I can't report all the interference's found.

Sigma and Octantis' special throw mechanic does not play well with directional slam attacks, and interfere with each other to a frustrating degree. Is there any way to separate them so I can use the throw in mid-air without interfering with intentions to slam attack, or vice versa? I'm sure Glaive Users understand as well, I love this weapon and have used it for around 1000-1200 hours, and I just really want to have access to the throw and slam attacks.

That's all.

Thank you so so much for bringing back melee aim-gliding and blocking, I'm so incredibly excited for melee mode and can't wait to have it back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any chance Umbra losing buffs/invulnerability when using Transference will finally get fixed correctly?

Also, Exalted Blade used to be able to block automatically even while attacking in the past, but this has no longer been the case for the longest time. Fix for this too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dig it - it's looking good

 

(Finally got time to write my response)

Heavy attacks as a resource is quite an interesting idea - particularly the ebb and flow of combat, especially with the heavier/specialist units we face. It and the coming rage mode have piqued my interest as I very much enjoyed channel builds back when melee 2.0 was released.

Though, perhaps a little counterintuitive - mods or arcanes to play into the heavy attack/rage mode playstyle as a main focus would certainly be interesting.

Also the manner of differentiation between weapons and allowing their passives/part in the story/stance play out.

Eg. Nikana.

With Decisive judgement (using it without the sheath) gains additional damage without sheathing

The other stances could benefit with the strike/sheath playstyle that could be based around a single strike heavy attack.

Then you have something like the Broken Sceptre - gaining its beam attack from the story rather than physically striking a foe

I am very much looking forward to the last part of this melee update!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor einer Stunde schrieb [DE]Bear:

Reach / Primed Reach - Will now increase range in a way that has been normalized. In the previous incarnation, long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit, while short-range weapons were barely seeing any increase at all.

Please please please tell us your intention with this. Do you want to nerf the range on our long weapons like whips, dokram zaws and polearms? Do you want them to retain their current range? I'm not asking for hard numbers because they are up to testing but you'll have to know your intention already so please tell us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure how I feel about adding juggles or the changes to the combo meter, but the reintroduction of the “sword alone” melee mode with manual blocking is a welcome addition. I’ll wait until I get my hands on the update before I jump to conclusions.

I appreciate the improvements to the clarity of the melee arsenal stats as well.

Quote

For those of you who may have missed it, Wukong’s Exalted Iron Staff has already had this functionality implemented (with the exception of the new Heavy Attacks and changes to the Slam Attacks), so if you want a preview of the Combo system, you should check out the Monkey King!

Hopefully this is implying that Exalted weapons get their own unique Heavy Attacks in the future!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Mod rebalances are nice, but please don't forget about Power Spike in Naramon.

These changes have significantly decreased the utility that ability provides.

Edit: Actually, both Naramon and Zenurik have abilities affected by this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...