(Lore)(Spoilers) So, I'm farming Wisp, and what [SPOILER] tells me the whole time, makes me think...

[crazyjr]

The only thing i got from that mission, was towards the last of it. Where she says (not paraphrasing, sorry),"you've made your decision, i've made mine". That tells me, she will be our next big bad and not redeemable, Also tells me (in part), we'll be getting a new (or old friend, depending on how you look at it), as a new Space Mom. You see i think Nora Night is actually Margulas having somehow survived her execution. She knows too much, to just be a throwaway character. I expect with The New War, we'll be forced to choose between Nora (Margulas) and Natah (Lotus) and our decision there will directly effect our account, unlike every other decision we've made

Edited October 30, 2019 by crazyjr

[Formous]

46 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

The only thing i got from that mission, was towards the last of it. Where she says (not paraphrasing, sorry),"you've made your decision, i've made mine". That tells me, she will be our next big bad and not redeemable, Also tells me (in part), we'll be getting a new (or old friend, depending on how you look at it), as a new Space Mom. You see i think Nora Night is actually Margulas having somehow survived her execution. She knows too much, to just be a throwaway character. I expect with The New War, we'll be forced to choose between Nora (Margulas) and Natah (Lotus) and our decision there will directly effect our account, unlike every other decision we've made

Completely unsubstantiated. Margulis is dead. We know this for truth.

[Numerikuu]

On 2019-10-27 at 5:51 PM, ant99999 said:

Ah, yes that time when they desided to put children and civillians in numbers that vary from thousands to millions into a military ship using an experimental technology to then throw it into the Void and see what happens.

Such a carefully conducted experiment that in no way was a crime against their own people.

This. The Zariman Ten Zero was far from a mere accident.

[crazyjr]

20 minutes ago, Formous said:

Completely unsubstantiated. Margulis is dead. We know this for truth.

How do we know, Ballas is known for deceit and lying. How can we know he's been honest with us? When he betrayed the orokin and now apparently the sentinels (giving us the Paracesis). That's two strikes to his honor and trust

 

Another thing, Margulas is the one that created the transference, the Tenno use in Warframe missions. There is a precedent set in the Silver Grove quest, where the main character attempted to use it herself and got trapped in Titania. Who better then the creator, to figure out how to use it to escape death. I say let's wait and see who is right.

 

Oh and one more thing, Why have they not shown Nora's eyes. I think this is a clue to her identy

Edited October 30, 2019 by crazyjr

[Formous]

5 minutes ago, crazyjr said:

How do we know, Ballas is known for deceit and lying. How can we know he's been honest with us, when he betrayed the orokin and now apparently the senteniels (giving us the Paracesis).

 

Another thing, Margulas is the one that created the transference, the Tenno use in Warframe missions. Who better then the creator, to figure out how to use it to escape death. I say let's wait and see who is right

Because we know from the Void that Margulis was sentenced to the Jade Light, which performs executions of high ranking Orokin. Her death so adversely affected Ballas that it is the single catalyst which would prompt the fall of the Orokin Empire, Ballas' defection, and the transformation of the Frames into Warframes by Ballas, the recognize creator of the Warframe project.  More so, his alliance with Natah was him being decieved. He wanted his lover back so badly, that he believed for a moment that Natah could become Margulus.  That betrayal tore apart all he fought for. He gave us Paracesis to right the wrongs he did.

However the Transference used by others is not like our Transference. They literally lose their bodies.  Trapped forever in another form. This happened with that woman in Titania's quest.  Margulis would not have been able to effect transference on the fly, nor would have been prompted to, nor have done so.  Her death was a symbol, her refusal to consign the Tenno.  Ironically, the reason we are alive now at all is because Ballas as a executor took possession of the Tenno and spared them. No one else was above him save the seven Emperors, and they are never heard from.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Formous

[crazyjr]

4 minutes ago, Formous said:

Because we know from the Void that Margulis was sentenced to the Jade Light, which performs executions of high ranking Orokin. Her death so adversely affected Ballas that it is the single catalyst which would prompt the fall of the Orokin Empire, Ballas' defection, and the transformation of the Frames into Warframes by Ballas, the recognize creator of the Warframe project.

However the Transference used by others is not like our Transference. They literally lose their bodies.  Trapped forever in another form. This happened with that woman in Titania's quest.  Margulis would not have been able to effect transference on the fly, nor would have been prompted to, nor have done so.  Her death was a symbol, her refusal to consign the Tenno.  Ironically, the reason we are alive now at all is because Ballas as a executor took possession of the Tenno and spared them. No one else was above him save the seven Emperors, and they are never heard from.

Likei said, she's the creator, maybe she knew something nobody else could have. Here's an interesting notion, If she survived, this would open a redemption path for Ballas, to allow us a powerful ally in the coming battles with the sentients.

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by crazyjr

[Formous]

Just now, crazyjr said:

Likei said, she's the creator, maybe she knew something nobody else could have. Here's an interesting notion, If she survived, this would open a redemption path for Ballas, to allow us a powerful ally in the coming battles with the sentients.

 

Unlikely.  Her position is gone.  I revised my initial post so I recommend reading it.  Thing is, margulis is gone. That can never change now.  And what she knew, Ballas knew.  He ultimately finished her work, as well as much more. Orokin like him are well and truly more powerful then Margulis. Its why she likely even had the chance to recant in the first place. He protected her a great deal politically I think.  Besides, it's better in literature that she remain a figure of the past. Even the Tenno know she is dead, and if she was alive, Ballas would know.  There is no if and or but about it.  Everything he did, was in the name of love.  That is why he is so despaired in the Chimera Prologue.

[crazyjr]

1 hour ago, Formous said:

Unlikely.  Her position is gone.  I revised my initial post so I recommend reading it.  Thing is, margulis is gone. That can never change now.  And what she knew, Ballas knew.  He ultimately finished her work, as well as much more. Orokin like him are well and truly more powerful then Margulis. Its why she likely even had the chance to recant in the first place. He protected her a great deal politically I think.  Besides, it's better in literature that she remain a figure of the past. Even the Tenno know she is dead, and if she was alive, Ballas would know.  There is no if and or but about it.  Everything he did, was in the name of love.  That is why he is so despaired in the Chimera Prologue.

Like i said, we'll see. I have been following the story and in my opinion, following the story and evidence, this is the path i see we are going. everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, you got your i got mine, It's all about how we see it, at this point we can only agree to disagree, till we see the story unfold

[Cerebrum123]

3 hours ago, crazyjr said:

The only thing i got from that mission, was towards the last of it. Where she says (not paraphrasing, sorry),"you've made your decision, i've made mine". That tells me, she will be our next big bad and not redeemable, Also tells me (in part), we'll be getting a new (or old friend, depending on how you look at it), as a new Space Mom. You see i think Nora Night is actually Margulas having somehow survived her execution. She knows too much, to just be a throwaway character. I expect with The New War, we'll be forced to choose between Nora (Margulas) and Natah (Lotus) and our decision there will directly effect our account, unlike every other decision we've made

I'm expecting a Tenno civil war. 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

On 10/27/2019 at 8:01 AM, HugintheCrow said:

No, it's actually your coffee pot saying hello one day as they gained sentience, and you say nothing and instantly fire assault weapons at it.

Tbh if my coffee pot or toaster started talking to me I would start firing an assault rifle at it as well lol

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Tbh if my coffee pot or toaster started talking to me I would start firing an assault rifle at it as well lol

Think about his wife, the coffee mug!

[vanaukas]

On 2019-10-26 at 8:52 PM, Zeyez said:

- since their arrival on Tau system, they knew that the Orokin will, at some point, attempt to claim that territory as theirs (stated at Corpus Imprint story), so they decided to launch an preemptively strike, but the sentients probably doesn't know that, in actual state of Origin system, the Orokin aren't there (years of travelling, since they can't use the Rails to avoid Void energy exposure), so they probably think that Orokin can be anyone, just like the Twin Queens were and the fact that Hunhow mistook Alad V (oversight? or maybe Alad V is quite of trickster?) as Orokin in Second Dream

But corpus ARE orokin, just to greed and they formed their own faction. vauban was created to deal with them, they are just a "rebel" faction (I cannot say a "corrupted" orokin faction because orokin themselves were full of corruption and greed too.. But greed for power, corpus were just merchants like and that was bring "dishonor" for the orokin, what a bunch of hypocrites...

[Im_a_Turtle]

On 2019-10-27 at 11:18 AM, HugintheCrow said:

Grineer being literally like jews in nazi germany's concentration camps isn't genocide? (This one follows a literal, law definition of genocide, btw, so you can't even argue it isn't)

Very bad comparison when the Grineer became just as bad as the Orokin in terms of leadership and welfare of its citizens under their "protection".

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, Im_a_Turtle said:

Very bad comparison when the Grineer became just as bad as the Orokin in terms of leadership and welfare of its citizens under their "protection".

It doesn't matter what happened later, it's not relevant to the topic of the discussion. Their situation under the Orokin empire mirrors the situation of Jews under Nazi germany very closely, it's actually way worse even.

Just cause someone does a bad thing now, doesn't mean we can't condemn a bad thing happeing to them in the past, lol. Bad things are bad things, no matter who they happen to.

(Especially, since Grineer weren't doing anything evil before their liberation, in fact they were MADE TO BE SLAVES, so you cannot claim they were being punished for something)

[SilentMobius]

I see some bold assertions here and I've been here for a while so I think I have a good handle on what we know rather than what we assume.

• It seems that any Solar Rail needs a sender and a receiver. Otherwise the sentients wouldn't have been needed in the first place.
• During the War (By the time the Primes were in service, which implies Tenno) Troops (Including a Mag Prime) were sent through a solar rail to a remote solar system filled the enemy.
• Right now there is no indication that this can be anything other that Tau.
• This means that the Sentients completed their task, built the Rail and that the Orokin Empire could Jump to Tau.
• Natah states that the start of the War was "The Golden Wrath"
• The Orokin were very worried about the Sentients and took precautions by ensuring they were "flawed" in respect to void energies
• The Orokin were somewhat happy with a "Flaw" that simply stopped the Sentients from returning to the Origin system, which suggests that they believed they had a "solution" to the problem once the work was complete

We have no direct knowledge of what/who started the War but everything we do know heavly implies it was the Orokin Empire after the remote rail was completed (As there was no way for the Empire to complete the remote rail once the war began) and the statements by Natah (though we have no guarantee that she is right or being truthful) support this.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by SilentMobius

[-Kittens-]

On 2019-10-27 at 6:59 AM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Herein lies the hubris of the Orokin, creating instruments of their own destruction that mirrored their need for power and control at all costs...users and consumers of the worst kind.

But whereas the Orokin literally sacrifice and eat their young and each other to maintain and grow in power (Sentients, Yuvan Children, the Jade Light), the Sentients EVOLVED into a hyper-familial super-organism that was a superior version of these elitist and self-absorbed, j@ck@sses.

That's p much how it works in the real world. The abused become like the abuser nine times out of ten, even countries.

[SilentMobius]

37 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

That's p much how it works in the real world. The abused become like the abuser nine times out of ten, even countries.

Not quite. Those who abuse are more likely to have been abused but the percentage of abused who become abusers is quite low. (~12% depending on the study and other factors including gender)

Edited October 31, 2019 by SilentMobius

[ByroSphere]

10 hours ago, Cerebrum123 said:

I'm expecting a Tenno civil war. 

It’d be fun if there was a “Tenno invasion” mode. Or a faction based conquest mode. Though if a civil war would happen, who would be the leaders?

[Zeyez]

12 hours ago, xHeretic said:

But corpus ARE orokin, just to greed and they formed their own faction. vauban was created to deal with them, they are just a "rebel" faction (I cannot say a "corrupted" orokin faction because orokin themselves were full of corruption and greed too.. But greed for power, corpus were just merchants like and that was bring "dishonor" for the orokin, what a bunch of hypocrites...

Corpus... Orokin?

Quote

Lead by innovatory and elusive industrialists, and claiming to be descendants of Orokin lineage, the Corpus are dedicated to the accumulation of wealth. This elite ruling class operates an insular trade organization using humans and robotics for labour and security, and have been condemned by the Seven as a merchant cult.

—Corpus Fragment

they claim to be, which is different from being
but sure, they are directly related if you look at Corpus imprint below, which mentions the humanoid fighters from corpus army
 

Quote

They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore.

A voice boomed from within, “The Crewmen project is cancelled. Send in the next.”

...
-fragment of Detron Crewman Synthesis Imprint

this makes me read the imprints once again, which shows me something quite... interesting:

Quote

...

“Does this look anything like you remember from the Orokin days?” I ask in a futile attempt to break the tension.

“That thing, yeah, we had ones that walked on two legs like that, but...” his finger stops its tapping and he takes a long look at the robot before continuing, “but… they were different.”

“Don’t you miss it?” I ask.

“What?” he says.

“You know, the empire?”

“I don’t think about it,” he’s back to tapping on the nav console.

“What about your corpus, don’t you miss them? Your father?” I say.

“Orokin didn’t have parents like you do, it was done differently then.” He takes a deep breath and turns to look at me. “Listen, the corpus who raised me are dead, do you know why they are dead?”

...

- Fragment of Anti MOA imprint

Orokin race, by default, doesn't have descendants, after all, why they wants to create descendants? they can swap their bodies, by using the Kuva and the Continuity, to extend their lifespan indefinitely... or even dying without huge consequences, unless their Oro is destroyed
and the only part of it that can be called Orokin are the high-up ones:

Quote

Orokin society was highly stratified, with only those at the very top being regarded as actual Orokin. The Orokin constructed a caste of genetically engineered slaves (Grinner) to serve their most basic industrial and military needs, while the rest of the empire was made up of less wealthy and advanced populations performing technological and economic services which would eventually congeal into the Corpus. A small conclave of warriors known as the Dax served as the Orokin's most elite soldiers. The Dax were enhanced with technology to be more lethal and agile in combat, while also made mentally unable to disobey their masters.

-fragment of Orokin culture description
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Orokin

that thing about dishonor to the Orokin its more because Corpus value most the profit, instead of the seven principles
its somehow like how catholics, evangelicals, and Jehovah's witnesses pray for the same singular god, but each one has their own way to praise that said one

Edited October 31, 2019 by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just needs the right words... and the left ones too

[vanaukas]

3 hours ago, Zeyez said:

Corpus... Orokin?

they claim to be, which is different from being
but sure, they are directly related if you look at Corpus imprint below, which mentions the humanoid fighters from corpus army
 

this makes me read the imprints once again, which shows me something quite... interesting:

Orokin race, by default, doesn't have descendants, after all, why they wants to create descendants? they can swap their bodies, by using the Kuva and the Continuity, to extend their lifespan indefinitely... or even dying without huge consequences, unless their Oro is destroyed
and the only part of it that can be called Orokin are the high-up ones:

that thing about dishonor to the Orokin its more because Corpus value most the profit, instead of the seven principles
its somehow like how catholics, evangelicals, and Jehovah's witnesses pray for the same singular god, but each one has their own way to praise that said one

Ty for the clarification

[Cloudyvisage]

We've been speaking that the Sentient and Orokin are all one big amalgamation, Ballas was one of the few examples we have beyond a pretty one-sided glimpse at the individual Orokin. Given the small number of True Orokin and how much we know of them as a group we can kinda classify them, the Sentients though, are a large faction and the only ones we really know are the war mongers, Hunhow, the mother and Natah, to a lesser degree.

Did we actually receive a timeline on the Golden Wrath or Mag Prime's description? From what we heard prior to that it was the Sentient, probably a splinter faction, that initiated the invasion with the worry that the Orokin would come and corrupt their system, a valid worry given the Orokin are pretty much the worst. The sentient did not invade to stop the Orokin from committing their atrocities, they invaded to stop them from committing atrocities on them. The Sentient are hardly the good guys here, on a grand scale they are slightly more moral but only if you apply some sort of point system, given their intent on genocide.

I would also like to point out that the Orokin would have been unlikely to perform, let alone succeed at genocide if they came to the Tau system to take it from the Sentients. The Orokin have never performed genocide on such a scale and earth/the great plague is a poor example, given the context of what the planets state was. In other words, the Sentients are responding to an invasion that would have originally been simply a colonization effort had there been no violence with complete genocide. The response is far in excess of what is warranted even should the Orokin have also been attempting genocide given that they were going to murder everything with even the slightest affiliation with the Orokin, which, given that the Orokin were the superpowers of their time, was everything and everyone.

To put it in perspective intelligent robots were sent to another land to set it up for their creators, they became attached to that land and didn't want to give it up. Sounds like America's founding perhaps? But then you add in that they were not being interfered with or controlled by the Orokin, they also didn't want to reintegrate into the Orokin society (Fair) and they then attacked, with the intent of complete destruction, the Orokin. They didn't just defend themselves, something they could have easily done given the Orokin couldn't actually beat an invasion by just a few of them, they attacked.

Even if the Golden Wrath is confirmed to have been a pre-emptive assault on the Sentient this doesn't make their response appropriate. Wanting to wipe out anyone that isn't you is a very narrow minded approach to making sure everything is as you want it to be.

TLDR: They're both bad, Sentient response was way overkill.

[crazyjr]

18 hours ago, Cerebrum123 said:

I'm expecting a Tenno civil war. 

If i'm right about the choice, yeah i agree

[IntheCoconut]

On 2019-10-27 at 5:46 AM, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

You do know they're still robots, right? Designed to teraform a planet and to not return? They started a war over a safeguard that they triggered. They destabilized the remnants of humanity and wish death upon the refugees simply trying to survive because of their infertility and impotence.

Yes, it's healthy to care about the well-being of family. That being said how many has Natah slaughtered do you think? How many times has her orders to sabotage and assassinate led to the deaths of loved ones for others without a single thought? Lotus is a terrorist if you look at her aims and deeds. Her goal is to incite fear and terror from either faction wishing to stabilize the system she was programmed to destabilize.

Nah she gets no sympathy from me. She backed the antagonists simply because she's one of them.

TL;DR at bottom.

You can argue whether or not the Orokin were evil, but I don't think you can deny that they were bad for the solar system. Objectively bad. In fact, they were a threat to its survival and existence. While they tried to transcend mankind into godhood, they were still ruled by the worst traits of man; jealousy, greed, selfishness, cruelty, anger, and paranoia. Sure, there were likely many good-natured or even kind Orokin, but none were among those in power, otherwise they wouldn't have made Grineer slaves, mind controlled puppets, weaponized inhumane experimentations, and possession over unwilling or manipulated subjects. It doesn't matter if the majority of a species is benevolent when those controlling and shaping the universe are corrupt and bereft of decency. No, the Orokin were definitely bad for the solar system, a fact they themselves were aware of because they wanted to move to the Tau system where they would heedlessly continue their unsustainable existence.

The Sentients on the other hand, aren't objectively good, evil or cruel from any evidence that we have. Much like you can't say that mother nature is evil; it just exists. Does a fox murdering a rabbit for food make it evil? Sentients aren't natural, but they use machine-logic to make decisions. And like the concepts of nature, machines are neither good nor evil. They observed the Orokin destroying the solar system, and concluded that for the sake of the solar system's survival, the Orokin needed to be stopped. With their machine-like rationality, that amounted to killing the Orokin, not out of cruelty, but necessity. Much like machine-learning today, it gives us unpredictable logic. Someone might tell a machine "reduce the errors in this program to 0" and the machine will reply innocently "I'll delete the program to ensure 0 errors." The computer found a solution to the problem just not the one a human would want.

We were led to believe by the Orokin that the Sentients were spiteful, petty creatures bent on vengeance because they were tricked into subservience and betrayal. When really, I think the answer is more logical, if unfeeling and cold. Orokin are a threat to all life in the eyes of the Sentient, so they needed to be deleted.

TL;DR: Orokin are capable of cruelty and they practiced it regularly, whereas I don't think cruelty is a concept understood by Sentients. Imagine an entirely new race that doesn't understand concepts of jealousy, vengeance, greed, happiness, or love. They only comprehend necessity, and the extinction of the Orokin is necessary to their survival. That isn't to say that someday they wont begin to understand these concepts, and Natah does hint that they are expanding their knowledge of "creativity, pride, and the will to live." 

[HugintheCrow]

31 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

snipped

TL;DR: Orokin are capable of cruelty and they practiced it regularly, whereas I don't think cruelty is a concept understood by Sentients. Imagine an entirely new race that doesn't understand concepts of jealousy, vengeance, greed, happiness, or love. They only comprehend necessity, and the extinction of the Orokin is necessary to their survival. That isn't to say that someday they wont begin to understand these concepts, and Natah does hint that they are expanding their knowledge of "creativity, pride, and the will to live." 

I think this is a very interesting way of looking at this. Props for this very well-thought-out idea.

[-Kittens-]

12 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Not quite. Those who abuse are more likely to have been abused but the percentage of abused who become abusers is quite low. (~12% depending on the study and other factors including gender)

*looks at countries where wars of aggression have occurred*

*looks at sexual and physical and mental abuse statistics separately*

I'm not sure which specific study you're citing but given current geopolitics and also given the amount of people in therapy and the amount of people that should be in therapy, I'd say your figures are slightly off.