Red crits nerfed hard on melee(?)

[Tamatu]

I've been doing some testing on several of the melee weapons I own. I concluded that every weapon that doesn't have its cc in the high 20's or above will now hardly, or not at all be capable of doing red crits, even at the new max 12x combo multiplier.

Pre-change blood rush and gladiator mod set considered the overall cc of the weapon and that is how it scaled, but now the cc buffs of the mentioned mods only seem to consider the base cc at all times.
So if you had, let's say a 20% cc before and you increased it to 40% with mods, the blood rush would use the 40% to count, not the 20%. Now it seems like it will only consider the base, with the traditional crit mods just adding that small buff on top of it.

I tested with blood rush and all 6 gladiator mods equipped at all times(best possible scenario) and then compared the chances both with and without using the sac. steel mod, and it seems like what i thought checks out, only base ccs are considered now for the combo stacking cc mods.

If i am correct this is a huge nerf to all melees that are below those red crit tresholds for their base cc.

[SDGDen]

did sum math, and correct, to reach 200% crit chance (red crit teritory) you need to have 12x combo (720% extra crit chance) and at least a 28% base crit chance.

[Tamatu]

Thank you for numbers checking.
I used a few 24% cc weapons, the 26% galatine prime and war, then moved onto a 29% territory. Guys above 30, while noticing a lot of reds, felt weaker as well, maybe due to them only reaching the first level of reds unlike before. Weapons I tried this with under 20 cc could barely hold oranges.

Even the 26% guys could only red crit around half the time with all the possible red crit mods and mod sets on them, which is ridiculous.

[Rapture-37]

I lost so much damage off of my melee Wukong and Zaw builds. I was big on melee and now I'm missing zeroes off the ends of my floating combat text. It feels absolutely horrendous going from 200,000 on Red crits to barely getting oranges for 20k

[George_PPS]

2 minutes ago, Rapture-37 said:

I lost so much damage off of my melee Wukong and Zaw builds. I was big on melee and now I'm missing zeroes off the ends of my floating combat text. It feels absolutely horrendous going from 200,000 on Red crits to barely getting oranges for 20k

Terrible nerfs in melee weapons. Damage decreased massively. Smooth movement and forward momentum gone. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Not having a problem getting red crits with my Guandao

 

[lukinu_u]

il y a 27 minutes, SupremeDutchGamer a dit :

did sum math, and correct, to reach 200% crit chance (red crit teritory) you need to have 12x combo (720% extra crit chance) and at least a 28% base crit chance.

With the recent changes, Gladiator set went from +15% per level to +10%, which is great considering bloodrush went from +165% to +60%.
This mean you can reach a total of +1440% with the full set, but considering you realistically only use 3 of them (on deconstructor for example), you would actually need 18.61% base status chance to achieve red crits.

[Tamatu]

7 minutes ago, Rapture-37 said:

I lost so much damage off of my melee Wukong and Zaw builds. I was big on melee and now I'm missing zeroes off the ends of my floating combat text. It feels absolutely horrendous going from 200,000 on Red crits to barely getting oranges for 20k

Now we have a game with infinitely scaling enemies but severly capped melee equipment. I have been a melee user since i started playing, used a lot of different setups. I will need further testing but the future doesn't look too bright for melee users.

[bibmobello]

Just now, ToaTamatu said:

Now we have a game with infinitely scaling enemies but severly capped melee equipment. I have been a melee user since i started playing, used a lot of different setups. I will need further testing but the future doesn't look too bright for melee users.

It's infinitely till you reach the limit, you are not forced to play survivals for 24 hours.

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 45 minutos, ToaTamatu dijo:

If i am correct this is a huge nerf to all melees that are below those red crit tresholds for their base cc.

Melee mods nerf, because stats on melee weapons are increased 

[Xion014]

Just now, bibmobello said:

It's infinitely till you reach the limit, you are not forced to play survivals for 24 hours.

Also to add on to this it seems DE wants to balance the game around sortie levels which is up to 100, and most people don't even fight enemies past level 100.

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, Xion014 said:

Also to add on to this it seems DE wants to balance the game around sortie levels which is up to 100, and most people don't even fight enemies past level 100.

And people don't understand that you can kill over level 100 with almost every weapon now, just use a  better weapon and avoid maiming strike...

Edited November 1, 2019 by bibmobello

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Everything’s been nerfed on melee.

[XzWasPzX]

Justo ahora, bibmobello dijo:

And people don't understand that you can kill over level 100 with almost every weapon now, just use better weapons and avoid maiming strike...

I never used maiming strike, except when I first got it and tested. It was booooring as hell xD Now i feel lucky, dont miss it at all. 

[Ikyr0]

finally, this is great news. I commend DE on doing something about the power creep, and I hope they stick to their guns and not backpedal based on casuals' pressure as they always do. if they continue down the path of sensible design changes, I might even install the game again in the near future.

is anything being done about kitguns?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Ikyr0

[bibmobello]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Everything’s been nerfed on melee.

It's a big  buff dude....

[hendrix923]

16 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Terrible nerfs in melee weapons. Damage decreased massively. Smooth movement and forward momentum gone. 

I couldn’t agree more. I loved the freedom of melee and covering lots of ground. The new animation is so odd its stifling and restricting.  I hope they find a better middle ground movement wise 

Edited November 1, 2019 by hendrix923

[George_PPS]

2 minutes ago, hendrix923 said:

I couldn’t agree more. I loved the freedom of melee and covering lots of ground. The new animation is so odd its stifling and restricting.  I hope they find a better middle ground because I don’t want to play this. 

I literally feel that my warframe's feet are glued to the ground when I use melee weapons and everything is a lot more sluggish than before. This is not fun. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by George_PPS

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

It's a big  buff dude....

It’s not.its oh so 100% not

Edited November 1, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[bibmobello]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s not.its oh so 100% not

It's not if you can play this game spamming maiming strike only.

Edited November 1, 2019 by bibmobello

[FlyingDice]

25 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Terrible nerfs in melee weapons. Damage decreased massively. Smooth movement and forward momentum gone. 

Blatant lies abound. None of these things are true.

Two things got hard-nerfed, and those're Critical Chance on Slide Attack & Covert Lethality. The only weapon I can reliably red-crit with now is my Guandao with MS+BR+a >100% CCoSA riven.

Across the rest of the melee board it's way more fluid, way more mobile, and much more damaging than pre-2.0. And this is coming from someone who was pissed about almost everything that came with 1.9.

 

Don't get me wrong, it hurts to lose the instant I-Win button, but I've been using things like my Dakra Prime and Jat Kittag for the first time in years without feeling like I'm seriously gimping myself.

Edited November 1, 2019 by FlyingDice

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

14 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

It's not if you can play this game spamming maiming strike only.

I have never owned maiming strike in my 3 years of playing. I loathe the tactic and am glad that it is atleast dead.

But. We’ve lost a noticeable portion of damage output, condition overload is now completely useless, Melee combos have lost their damage multipliers, numerous weapons have gone from top choices to below second rate. Heck Wukongs Staff is now back to being a garbage exalted.

And for what? A useless heavy attack that’s only there to completely drain your combo counter? A lifted effect that’s just Titanias terrible zero G Ragdoll?

I’m sorry but these are not buffs. Melee as a whole as regressed and I hope that the changes we see over the next month rectifies these mistakes.

Edited November 1, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[OvisCaedo]

14 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

Blatant lies abound. None of these things are true.

Two things got hard-nerfed, and those're Critical Chance on Slide Attack & Covert Lethality.

...Well, and Blood Rush and Condition Overload. Of course, these four things were all disgustingly strong compared to other options, so it's not terribly surprising, and maybe not even a bad thing in the long term. And even though the new CO is tremendously nerfed compared to before, it's still probably the strongest single-slot mod in the entire melee pool.

I haven't done a whole lot of combo testing on various weapons or stances, but it sounds like the general feedback I'm seeing is that the process has been very hit or miss, because the new stances were largely made by just kind of mixing around existing moves to try to vaguely fit them into the new combo paradigms. Some of these work well! Some of these sound to work very poorly.

my own experience is only with redeemer so far and bullet dance feels much, much more awkward and clunky than it ever did before.

Edited November 1, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[Tamatu]

I see some people mentioning maiming strike in the thread. That's one mistake i did make, because i never got myself to get a maiming strike, so i can only speak for br and co. 

What I will say is this, that MS playstyle was very damaging to the game.
What this melee 3.0 change brought, however, is that now all melees will be worse off by a lot and people are just not experienced enough to see that yet. All dmg numbers, cc and sc's along with ranges were buffed on weps and that's what people see. They were all compensation buffs though:

• dmg buffed to make up for loss in crit dmg due to less frequent crits, and to make up for co's nerf
• cc buffed on some weps, because if they weren't almost no melee could reach good crits with this new bs system thanks to nerfing blood rush (and maiming as well, but that should die anyway)
• sc buffed to compensate for c.o. nerfs
• ranges buffed to make up for completely destroying long range weapons, and to make everything more universal in range (which is a terrible idea btw)

Truth is, we lost a lot mroe than gained. Again.

People see all the buff numbers and think this is good, melee is better. But let me tell you, stances feel more rigid now, you are a little bit more locked into your animations. Even with fully dedicated builds (those take a large amount of farming to even get the endo, wepons, and mods for, which many forget) a lot less melees will be able to crit reliably. Status weapons got it worse though i feel like, as this hard cap now removes the remaining bit of originality that melee builds had: You could use your primaries, your frames' abilities or an other type of method to creatively put some extra statuses on an enemy so that CO will stack better. Now that it is capped at 3, the creative aspect of figuring out how to put more stacks is gone, all you are left with is a mod that is almost as dumb as if it was a flat dmg increasing one.

All this is coming from someone who actually uses melees almost constantly, although I don't have much experience in using whips or maiming i will give you that. What i see in many that defend these changes is that they don't have the insight to be able to realise how DE has shuffled the cards now and screwed everyone over again.

Edited November 1, 2019 by ToaTamatu
Forgot to add something

[ryu-hayabusa1]

52 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

Don't get me wrong, it hurts to lose the instant I-Win button, but I've been using things like my Dakra Prime and Jat Kittag for the first time in years without feeling like I'm seriously gimping myself.

And that right there, is there goal, imo. Choosing whatever weapon you like and not be afraid that it doesn't follow the current meta.