The true reason why DE won't fix Lich RNG

[ixidron92]

hace 6 minutos, Jarriaga dijo:

Depending on how it's implemented, I'll have 2 reactions. 

1 - If they can be traded for plat: I will be extremely disappointed in DE undermining their own systems and gameplay sustainability in the name of additional monetization. It would show that the layers of RNG are psychological manipulation. 

2 - If they can't be traded for plat: I will return to this thread to call out OP on their cynical attitude projecting malice and ill intentions on DE's part as their first choice of reasoning. If they are so callous and distrusting of DE, then they might as well leave the game if they have so little faith on their decency and restraint. 

Whut? I'm literally saying that not being tradeable for platinum is a worse system. So, go figures. Just the fact that they want to make them tradeable implies a desire for monetization. They shouldn't be tradeable in my opinion.

Also, just because you dislike the government you don't necessarily move to another country.

My prediction: They won't be tradeable for platinum at first. Then the scamming posts will come in and DE will of course make them tradeable for platinum in the spirit of getting rid of those awful scammers. Create a problem, sell the solution, look good in the process. Economy 101.

Edited November 12, 2019 by ixidron92

[Dreddeth]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

You don't really get human behavior, right? I predict less than 15 minutes before an "I got scammed" forum post after lich trading comes into existence. Hell, I would be surprised if there weren't any scammers right now scheduling trades for once the lich trading releases.

I think it's you who doesn't get human behavior. This manner of trading being officially UN-endorsed by DE to the point of there being a warning message every time you open Trade chat, I've never in my probably-longer-than-yours time in Warframe seen or heard anyone actually go for that kind of trade. The closest I've ever heard of people willingly trading for something resembling a promise or favor rather than material goods was people occasionally screwing other people out of money or parts on complete Prime Akimbo Secondary sets, which is neither as much a problem as you're making out this to potentially be, nor quite the same thing, since it was all about having to split the transaction across 2 trades to get all the parts to the buyer.

Furthermore, while the cancer that is Riven trading certainly wastes a lot of space in chat, there are so few people actually buying those high-roller, 1K+ Rivens that I'd hesitate to call them relevant. Transactions of that magnitude are not a "typical player and their spare plat" problem, they are an "only logs on to farm the new hotness and/or price gouge in Trade chat" problem, or a "Whale with someone else's credit card" problem at worst. The former is canny enough to know a trap when they smell it and greedy enough to deserve it if they don't, and the other will either absorb the loss or escalate the issue by getting more parties involved.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's not really any overlap between people guileless enough to fall for such a scheme, and people savvy enough to that their plat savings can accommodate the asking price. What you are quite obviously forgetting is that every non-cosmetic item in this entire game can be farmed, and there are vast numbers of players who do exactly that, because Trade chat was a pain in the a$$ before and has only gotten worse with Riven spam.

[kapn655321]

Giving us something scaling, with new weapons made unique both by RNG and user input..
So we can chew on that while railjack finishes.

For the majority of players, this is something to grow into while development takes place..
with a far greater top end, and more reward for efforts and resources invested.
Absolutely it will earn them profits. OP isn't wrong there. Is that the whole picture? No.
I feel that is obviously a mis-characterization if it's alleged to be all this was.
It's certainly got something to do with it.. but it's in line with what players have asked for in many respects.
They're a company, and this is a product, but that's not all they are, either.

If Weapon Exilus and 5forma-to-40 were always in the game, as they could have been,
we'd think nothing of it. We thought nothing of it when they launched the Paracesis..
so it was field tested, and I've never seen upset over that one.

We just got a greater capacity yield on a weapon we were certain to put forma into already,
at the time of weapon exilus which require more capacity.. a new scaling enemy with more
engaging mechanics, over 100 melee weapons reworked... and this was to buy them time
and make up for not having Railjack finished.

I'd say they earned it if they make the money,
and they'll have been found to deserve it if they don't.
But as far as game developer pricing schemes, this is a far cry from many present examples.
And hey, they've been leaving money on the table for our sake for 10+ years..
Let's try to show them we're worth keeping that in mind, everybody.
...If they charge more, it would be as response to cries of, "content drought and incompetence."
As they would clearly need to hire more and pay overtime to keep up if user sentiment has gone belly up.

[Zekkii]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Which is totally fine to a point but they pushed their RNG at least one level too far.

In their lust for maximum grind they turned their Mainline from "The Old Blood" to "The Stone Blood" .... EG trying to get blood from a stone.

Agreed.  I really like the Requiem System for mods, and I can deal with the RNG for figuring out which mods and order they go in.  What bothers me is the run-on duplicates and random bonus damage, which are based on nothing so the player has no choice but to grind and pray.

[ixidron92]

hace 4 minutos, Dreddeth dijo:

I think it's you who doesn't get human behavior. This manner of trading being officially UN-endorsed by DE to the point of there being a warning message every time you open Trade chat, I've never in my probably-longer-than-yours time in Warframe seen or heard anyone actually go for that kind of trade. The closest I've ever heard of people willingly trading for something resembling a promise or favor rather than material goods was people occasionally screwing other people out of money or parts on complete Prime Akimbo Secondary sets, which is neither as much a problem as you're making out this to potentially be, nor quite the same thing, since it was all about having to split the transaction across 2 trades to get all the parts to the buyer.

Furthermore, while the cancer that is Riven trading certainly wastes a lot of space in chat, there are so few people actually buying those high-roller, 1K+ Rivens that I'd hesitate to call them relevant. Transactions of that magnitude are not a "typical player and their spare plat" problem, they are an "only logs on to farm the new hotness and/or price gouge in Trade chat" problem, or a "Whale with someone else's credit card" problem at worst. The former is canny enough to know a trap when they smell it and greedy enough to deserve it if they don't, and the other will either absorb the loss or escalate the issue by getting more parties involved.

Basically, what I'm saying is that there's not really any overlap between people guileless enough to fall for such a scheme, and people savvy enough to that their plat savings can accommodate the asking price. What you are quite obviously forgetting is that every non-cosmetic item in this entire game can be farmed, and there are vast numbers of players who do exactly that, because Trade chat was a pain in the a$$ before and has only gotten worse with Riven spam.

Yeah, man. I'm a biologist and studied social and human behavior. There's already a platinum black market despite DE cracking down hard on everyone partaking in it. Do you seriously think for a moment that there won't be scammers trying to abuse the system and trading contracts for platinum? Like I said, I expect those "I got scammed" post to show up very soon.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Fire2box said:

Step 1. find potentional buyer

Step 2. Show you have what they want

Step 3. they give you plat in normal trade

Step 4. You proceed with lich trade. 

 

special step that may be needed. discount 10 plat off trade so they can join your clan rushing the clan key. 

So you expect people to move from clan to clan so they can buy the Lich they want by first leaving their clan, receive the seller clan invitation, pay more plat to rush they key, and then pay upfront plat even though they would not be able to submit a fraud report because they were not supposed to accept a plat deal to begin with? 

That's so convoluted and risky that anyone who goes for that and gets scammed would get a Darwin award from me rather than sympathy. 

 

[ixidron92]

hace 19 minutos, kapn655321 dijo:

Giving us something scaling, with new weapons made unique both by RNG and user input..
So we can chew on that while railjack finishes.

For the majority of players, this is something to grow into while development takes place..
with a far greater top end, and more reward for efforts and resources invested.
Absolutely it will earn them profits. OP isn't wrong there. Is that the whole picture? No.
I feel that is obviously a mis-characterization if it's alleged to be all this was.
It's certainly got something to do with it.. but it's in line with what players have asked for in many respects.
They're a company, and this is a product, but that's not all they are, either.

If Weapon Exilus and 5forma-to-40 were always in the game, as they could have been,
we'd think nothing of it. We thought nothing of it when they launched the Paracesis..
so it was field tested, and I've never seen upset over that one.

We just got a greater capacity yield on a weapon we were certain to put forma into already,
at the time of weapon exilus which require more capacity.. a new scaling enemy with more
engaging mechanics, over 100 melee weapons reworked... and this was to buy them time
and make up for not having Railjack finished.

I'd say they earned it if they make the money,
and they'll have been found to deserve it if they don't.
But as far as game developer pricing schemes, this is a far cry from many present examples.
And hey, they've been leaving money on the table for our sake for 10+ years..
Let's try to show them we're worth keeping that in mind, everybody.
...If they charge more, it would be as response to cries of, "content drought and incompetence."
As they would clearly need to hire more and pay overtime to keep up if user sentiment has gone belly up.

Hey, I just merely explained how a corporate mind works and theorized about the true motives of the Lich system. Everything else here came from people reacting to my post. I never stated it's morally wrong or anything like that, yet people seem to think I'm ranting against DE for some reason while all I did was provide and explanation of why they have very little interest in fixing their RNG. It's fairly obvious it gives them more money than having a non-RNG effort based system.

Edited November 12, 2019 by ixidron92

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

They are gonna make Liches contracts tradeable as they said. So, once the trading begins and the platinum flows, they'll keep adding things to it.

Imagine how much platinum a lich contract with a perfect 60% roll would cost.

We dont even know if liches will trade for plat or if they'll be restriced to something else.

Also, 60% isnt a perfect roll everytime. Some players may want the lowest possible roll just in order to not #*!% up their damage stat distribution and procs. Kuva weapons are a prime option to get that low heat percentage needed for free without having to spend mods on it or water down your pool too much.

edit: And if DE had plans to make money on this, they'd give is better stats and far more RNG than the 60% cap we currently have. Or do you play massive amounts of plat for a simple 60/60 mod?

Edited November 12, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, ixidron92 said:

I never stated it's morally wrong

I wouldn't assume you meant that.

I felt it reductive of the big picture, as "The True Reason..." seems was intended to put across.
Your intent and meaning was sensible, if a bit click baity. ...which you're a clever fellow, you know that much.
They've been relatively good to us as a company.
The profit part is necessary, but easy to overstate this to sound as just an overtly predatory move, and nothing else.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

2 hours ago, Raikh said:

Thats assuming that all the players who want to buy Kuva Weapons already have the plat to buy them.

There will surely be a portion of the playerbase who just makes the plat circulate but there will also be players who will buy plat to be able to purchase those and inject new plat into the economy.
Depending on demand and price DE will totally make money off of this.

Not only that, but every bit of platinum bought to add into the system increases inflation, thus driving prices even higher.

This is what happened with Rivens. More and more available platinum meant that riven prices kept rising, which resulted in more platinum, ad absurdum. The only thing that kept it from spiraling out of control was the constant prices of market items (forma, boosters, etc.) and the massive overturning of the market every 3 months from riven rebalancing. Kuva weapons won't have the rebalancing factor, which will make 'perfect' lich prices rise without a cap (unless DE implements something to fix it).

Ephemera liches likely will remain stable in price, if not slowly devalue, since it sounds like we will be able to use them infinitely (since you still get the ephemera if you convert, and there are no percentages involved). But 60% weapon liches are a one-time commodity, consumed upon use.The only way DE can devalue them is to introduce a higher bonus percentage, which will devalue an existing set while making an even more valuable set. It would be like if riven disposition could never be nerfed.

[ixidron92]

hace 14 minutos, kapn655321 dijo:

Your intent and meaning was sensible, if a bit click baity. ...which you're a clever fellow, you know that much.
 

Hehe. Like I said, I have studied and understand human behavior and psychology, and I know some tricks to spark a good discussion or to get people's attention. You'd be surprised how some little things or the right choice of words can influence behavior. You've got me there. The title is not a coincidence.

Now, this is a valid and interesting point to consider. One that people have failed to realize so far. I merely used a bit of behavior engineering to make the topic more appealing and gain visibility.

Edited November 12, 2019 by ixidron92

[Dreddeth]

35 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Yeah, man. I'm a biologist and studied social and human behavior. There's already a platinum black market despite DE cracking down hard on everyone partaking in it. Do you seriously think for a moment that there won't be scammers trying to abuse the system and trading contracts for platinum? Like I said, I expect those "I got scammed" post to show up very soon.

Allegedly, you might have studied biology. I even recognize that there's enough overlap between that, psychology, and sociology to give your words weight.

Or there would be, if I had any reason to believe your claim. You don't have to be a major in anything to deliberately post flame-bait. Also, don't pretend like the mere existence of a black market and scammers is an argument against a change which we have no actual information about other than "it's coming." That's specious doomsaying, not reasoning.

29 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Hey, I just merely explained how a corporate mind works and theorized about the true motives of the Lich system. Everything else here came from people reacting to my post. I never stated it's morally wrong or anything like that, yet people seem to think I'm ranting against DE for some reason while all I did was provide and explanation of why they have very little interest in fixing their RNG. It's fairly obvious it gives them more money than having a non-RNG effort based system.

Too many people use the veneer of "speaking the truth" or "calling it like it is" to disguise verbal abuse and bullying behavior. Your statements and language are loaded enough that I have reason to believe such is the case here, and that you are merely trying to start sh!t.

13 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Hehe. Like I said, I have studied and understand human behavior and psychology, and I know some tricks to spark a good discussion or to get people's attention. You'd be surprised how some little things or the right choice of words can influence behavior. You've got me there. The title is not a coincidence.

But of course, it helps if the provocateur actually admits to deliberately posting incendiary content.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Dreddeth
Typo.

[ixidron92]

hace 1 minuto, Dreddeth dijo:

Allegedly, you might have studied biology. I even recognize that there's enough overlap between that, psychology, and sociology to give your words weight.

Or there would be, if I had any reason to believe your claim. You don't have to be a major in anything to deliberately post flame-bait. Also, don't pretend like the mere existence of a black market and scammers is an argument against a change which we have no actual information about other than "it's coming." That's specious doomsaying, not reasoning.

Too many people use the veneer of "speaking the truth" or "calling it like it is" to disguise verbal abuse and bullying behavior. Your statements and language are loaded enough that I have reason to believe such is the case here, and that you are merely a disingenuous.

But of course, it helps if the provocateur actually admits to deliberately posting incendiary content.

I'm bullying and abusing who exactly?

[kapn655321]

17 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

some tricks to spark

Certainly then you know that demagoguery and absolute statements are meant to raise people's hackles and get them to respond and choose sides.
Polarizing a crowd for one's enjoyment can be detrimental. I'm not so sure what side you want chosen, but people choose and mobilize as a result.

This could stem from an innocent intent to shake the player base into awareness, to safeguard from the pitfalls of sunk-cost..
Could be you'd rather not that they charge so much, despite sensing it could be dangerous to devalue the income from forma as it is.
Maybe it's just kicking the bees nest to see what kind of bees live inside. o_O
Science is weird like that, I suppose. Discussion, too.

You'll also know many folks biologically can't, "turn down this fight," which.. whew.. we don't need more of.

I genuinely worry about the wellbeing of DE's staff.
..and I wince when I think about more posts meant to stir turmoil and hurt feelings.
Maybe it has therapeutic power in the end if we're very lucky... and the brute force attempts at shocking everyone results in teasing out well formed answers that make sense to everyone. That is somewhat inevitable.. if it survives the dividing and conquering that leaps on it like the proverbial grenade it always is.
Point is, throwing grenades is exciting, and potentially hazardous. Do always use with caution.

Carry on, and best of luck.

Edited November 12, 2019 by kapn655321

[ixidron92]

hace 9 minutos, kapn655321 dijo:

Certainly then you know that demagoguery and absolute statements are meant to raise people's hackles and get them to respond and choose sides.
Polarizing a crowd for one's enjoyment can be detrimental. I'm not so sure what side you want chosen, but people choose and mobilize as a result.

This could stem from an innocent intent to shake the player base into awareness, to safeguard from the pitfalls of sunk-cost..
Could be you'd rather not that they charge so much, despite sensing it could be dangerous to devalue the income from forma as it is.
Maybe it's just kicking the bees nest to see what kind of bees live inside. o_O
Science is weird like that, I suppose. Discussion, too.

You'll also know many folks biologically can't, "turn down this fight," which.. whew.. we don't need more of.

I genuinely worry about the wellbeing of DE's staff.
..and I wince when I think about more posts meant to stir turmoil and hurt feelings.
Maybe it has therapeutic power in the end if we're very lucky... and the brute force attempts at shocking everyone results in teasing out well formed answers that make sense to everyone. That is somewhat inevitable.. if it survives the dividing and conquering that leaps on it like the proverbial grenade it always is.
Point is, throwing grenades is exciting, and potentially hazardous. Do always use with caution.

It's surprising how you can use the same tricks politicians use to stir the masses in a simple internet forum and get the same results.

Still, like I said, my point is worth analyzing. People have asked for very specific fixes for the Lich issue and DE simply glided over it taking a route nobody asked for that seems to address the issue while in reality it does not. That trickery reminded me of politics too much to pass the opportunity of using such tactics myself.

And, unlike politicians, if I'm proven wrong, I'll have no problem retracting my words and issuing a public apology.

My intention was to raise awareness of this possible future issue. If I'm wrong, no problem. If I'm proven right, then we should be concerned.

Edited November 12, 2019 by ixidron92

[Dreddeth]

3 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

I'm bullying and abusing who exactly?

Dev-bashing is covered in the rules under things we can report each other for doing. Perhaps bullying is not the right word, but if you can't see how your language and tone can be construed as a baseless attack on the devs (and it is baseless, because we have no information), then I can't help but suspect that you're being disingenuous.

5 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Certainly then you know that demagoguery and absolute statements are meant to raise people's hackles and get them to respond and choose sides.
Polarizing a crowd for one's enjoyment can be detrimental. I'm not so sure what side you want chosen, but people choose and mobilize as a result.

This could stem from an innocent intent to shake the player base into awareness, to safeguard from the pitfalls of sunk-cost..
Could be you'd rather not that they charge so much, despite sensing it could be dangerous to devalue the income from forma as it is.
Maybe it's just kicking the bees nest to see what kind of bees live inside. o_O
Science is weird like that, I suppose. Discussion, too.

You'll also know many folks biologically can't, "turn down this fight," which.. whew.. we don't need more of.

I genuinely worry about the wellbeing of DE's staff.
..and I wince when I think about more posts meant to stir turmoil and hurt feelings.
Maybe it has therapeutic power in the end if we're very lucky... and the brute force attempts at shocking everyone results in teasing out well formed answers that make sense to everyone. That is somewhat inevitable.. if it survives the dividing and conquering that leaps on it like the proverbial grenade it always is.
Point is, throwing grenades is exciting, and potentially hazardous. Do always use with caution.

This is exactly why I take issue with your post, @ixidron92. I know how humans behave, and I know that it is very rare for someone to speak the way you do in good faith. More often than not, said speaker is just trying to manipulate people.

All in all, you've given me as much reason to trust your word as I have to trust Harry Wormwood's car dealership.

[Pizzarugi]

30 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The profit part is necessary, but easy to overstate this to sound as just an overtly predatory move, and nothing else.

I can't stress this part enough. The game is free, of course DE needs to have some way of monetizing content in the game to encourage people to buy plat. Don't get me wrong, call them out for bad monetizations like being able to spend plat to get a bundle of relics or all requiem mods in one purchase, but you can't expect DE to pay its staff and servers with happy thoughts and good vibes.

However, they have to keep players invested in the game for this to work. Complain about how grindy it is all you want, but Kuva Liches give players an endgame and something they can sink hours into in order to get some new guns, possibly even strive to get the ones with the best rolls for their needs.

[Fire2box]

51 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So you expect people to move from clan to clan so they can buy the Lich they want by first leaving their clan, receive the seller clan invitation, pay more plat to rush they key, and then pay upfront plat even though they would not be able to submit a fraud report because they were not supposed to accept a plat deal to begin with? 

That's so convoluted and risky that anyone who goes for that and gets scammed would get a Darwin award from me rather than sympathy. 

 

I don't expect them to, I know they will. 

[Uhkretor]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I do miss the good old days when games were simply designed to be as fun as possible.

... You mean the 80s/90s where games were played on DOS? If so, there's Dosbox now, and its up-to-date on Linux... I guess I'm lucky 😛

[ixidron92]

hace 9 minutos, Dreddeth dijo:

Dev-bashing is covered in the rules under things we can report each other for doing. Perhaps bullying is not the right word, but if you can't see how your language and tone can be construed as a baseless attack on the devs (and it is baseless, because we have no information), then I can't help but suspect that you're being disingenuous.

This is exactly why I take issue with your post, @ixidron92. I know how humans behave, and I know that it is very rare for someone to speak the way you do in good faith. More often than not, said speaker is just trying to manipulate people.

All in all, you've given me as much reason to trust your word as I have to trust Harry Wormwood's car dealership.

I harbor no ill intentions nor am I actually attacking any person in particular. One may or may no trust me, but that doesn't mean my original point isn't a valid one. This is something we should keep an eye on. As of right now it's merely theorizing, but if we're aware of it, perhaps we can know what to expect. Or perhaps I am completely wrong, at which point I'll retract my claims and apologize.

Let me ask you something. Is it typical for someone who's being deceitful on purpose and with malice to admit they are being slightly manipulative and bow to back down and apologize if proven wrong? Because my experience with human behavior is that those people when called out tend to double down on the lies or deflect and slander instead of acting the way I do.

Edited November 12, 2019 by ixidron92

[Dreddeth]

17 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

nor am I actually attacking any person in particular.

Character assassination aimed in the general direction of the dev team, which you committed with your heavy-handed insinuations regarding their motivations for the new system, is certainly an attack.

You are technically correct in that you are not attacking any person in particular, as the dev team is comprised of multiple people, but if you said you weren't attacking anyone at all, that would be a lie. You're not ignorant enough of the language you're so proud to have chosen to claim innocence.

In fact, given your proclivity for dishonest rhetorical tricks, I suspect that you know this very well, and thus that your deceptive use of language here was intentional. It may not be enough to cover your a$$, though, and there'd be little reason for grief if it weren't.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Dreddeth
Typo.

[tyreens]

Maybe next time when we are planning to spend some money on plat we should roll a dice 6 times in a row and only buy it if we got 6 times the same number.

Edited November 13, 2019 by tyreens

[ixidron92]

hace 7 minutos, Dreddeth dijo:

Character assassination aimed in the general direction of the dev team, which you committed with your heavy-handed insinuations regarding their motivations for the new system, is certainly an attack.

You are technically correct in that you are not attacking any person in particular, as the dev team is comprised of multiple people, but if you said you weren't attacking anyone at all, that would be a lie. You're not ignorant enough of the language you're so proud to have chosen to claim innocence.

In fact, given your proclivity for dishonest rhetorical tricks, I suspect that you know this very well, and thus that your deceptive use of language here was intentional. It may not be enough to cover your a$$, though, and there'd be little reason for grief if it weren't.

Did I? Have I? That's what you're inferring. I claim (and claimed) I've done no such things, yet you keep insisting I'm being dishonest and that' I'm bullying people when you're the one constantly accusing me of doing wrong and harboring ulterior, evil motives.

[Mikaer88]

I haven't kill a lich yet, is it really that bad huh? I'll probably farm them once all mainline updates are live. Perhaps they'll make changes once we are there.

[Jarriaga]

41 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

I don't expect them to, I know they will. 

Darwin award then. In fact, I'll be actively cheering for them to get scammed. They'll deserve it considering they'd be required to put in some effort and inconvenience themselves in order to increase their chances of getting scammed, and still risk it. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Jarriaga