Momentum in Archwing

[2ndPersonPlural]

I'm hearing more talk about the changes to how momentum is handled when flying an archwing than any of the other changes.

I was very excited about Empyrean.  But this momentum change, coupled with the removal of experimental flight, worries me.  It feels like I'm moving a toy through the air, not a 2-ton machine.  I don't want to fly a toy around a restricted field with only 180 degrees of pitch.  I want to fly an archwing through 3D space.

The new system is certainly easier to control.  However, it mostly ignores the concept of inertia, and the unnatural movement actually makes dogfight combat less intuitive.  I also worry that this new system will put a lower skill cap on archwing movement, because it eliminates some of the more advanced looping and swinging movements that can be performed.

[Ikusias]

We lost the ability to roll, fly inverted or actually do acrobatic maneuvers...

[GruntBlender]

28 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

We lost the ability to roll, fly inverted or actually do acrobatic maneuvers...

It's a worthy sacrifice for the ability to control where you're going.

[Ikusias]

No it's not, controls worked fine before, what was borked was inertia, but that's a gamewide problem, just look at enemy ragdolled into orbit and the like.

Inertia is easily 2 to 3 times higher than what it should be everywere in the game.

hek grenades bouncing on the ground or obstacles have a high chance to bounce back and lopping off your frame's head instead of stopping were they impacted!

[Keiyadan]

360° flying would only be nice for me while haveing a 3d map like a ball so i can see that im upside down or not with to old map and therefore i never used the experimental flight since there was more problems to me than useing the 180° one. for what i can say im fine with it at the moment and im played alot of archwing missions

[GruntBlender]

8 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

No it's not, controls worked fine before, what was borked was inertia

It was a lack of consistency. You could do a 180 instantly but stopping was impossible. You couldn't change direction of movement relative to the camera easily. Speed and acceleration had different rates in different directions. These are all problems that got largely solved. Ability to control the thing isn't the same as the control inputs for the thing, don't mistake my intent. 

[Uthael]

From another topic:

40 minutes ago, Uthael said:

It would be bad to just bring the old movement back. No matter how fun it is once you got used to it, it was still too steep of a learning curve for many to get used to. (But yeah, I do want it all back xD Both, blink spam and the manuvers)

This new movement type made A LOT of difference. For many people, this sluggish movement is an improvement. To me, it's like driving a motorcycle with training wheels. In order to help me not fall, it won't let me bank in curves.

So, I'd like another movement update. Or implement an "ancient" version of AWs. An experimental series, made before Primes. With a bit more unrefined control scheme.
Anyone played GTA:Vice City? Remember how difficult it was to get the hang of flying that RC helicopter to plant the bombs? I LOVED it.

[Ikusias]

Just put back old movement system for veterans and give optional kiddy grade system for those who hate everything archwing without poisoning it for the rest.

I like the freedom of choosing as you have in War Thunder and other fligth games: simulator or arcade controls, both have advantages and downsides so everyone is happy with his preferred control system

Edited November 24, 2019 by Ikusias

[Taiepii]

4 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

You could do a 180 instantly but stopping was impossible. 

Maybe you didn't know but you could do a reverse loop that stop instantly your archwing. Not many knew that move and that fine, but DE shouldn't force Veteran player that knew how to use their archwing deal with the super assisted new system.

They should keep the new system and add in option to be like the old version. 

4 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

It was a lack of consistency. 

Do you want to talk about the auto stop when you drop hand of control ? I had insane speed ( Wisp speed + Volt + Runtime )  and guess what, I still auto stop over 3 meter distance without any reverse animation or anything that make a bit of sense to stop a full engine that go surely above 300km/h to full stop in less than a second over less than 3 meter .

I wouldn't complain much about it if at the very least the stop distance was relevant to the speed.

 

4 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

Speed and acceleration had different rates in different directions.

 if you talking about the upward, downward, backward and side way, it was simple that you didn't have the burnout option those way which made sense since you didn't add the full angle of the propulsion. Otherwise the speed was the same. Even if I agree with you that now it has a better speed.

 

-------

 

Even though I understand the point of view from DE to make the AW more accessible to newbie. There is nowhere I understand the remove of the "experimental flight" option. 
What so wrong with having and option that would make Veteran and Newbie happy ? Especially when they don't have to do more work since its already done. 

[GruntBlender]

1 hour ago, Taiepii said:

Veteran player that knew how to use their archwing

 

1 hour ago, Taiepii said:

AW more accessible to newbie

What's a veteran? In the context of warframe, how do you define veteran? This elitism isn't good. "I learned something needlessly difficult therefore I'm better than everyone" just isn't helpful.

 

1 hour ago, Taiepii said:

Not many knew that move and that fine

No, it's not fine. And it wasn't a good solution to the problem.

[RX-3DR]

8 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

It was a lack of consistency. You could do a 180 instantly but stopping was impossible. You couldn't change direction of movement relative to the camera easily. Speed and acceleration had different rates in different directions. These are all problems that got largely solved. Ability to control the thing isn't the same as the control inputs for the thing, don't mistake my intent. 

New air brakes and preventing a plane from flying upside down are two separate issues. You can have your new air brakes and we can fly our planes upside down, they are not mutually exclusive.

P.S.  Sorry for knowing how to fly a plane, it's elitism.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RX-3DR

[GruntBlender]

24 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

New air brakes and preventing a plane from flying upside down are two separate issues. You can have your new air brakes and we can fly our planes upside down, they are not mutually exclusive.

P.S.  Sorry for knowing how to fly a plane, it's elitism.

You want to fly a plane, play MS Flight Simulator. Space Ninjas need consistency between ground movement and space movement.

Look, I'm not opposed to an option to turn 6DOF on, I'm really not. I'm opposed to calling a system becoming more accessible a dumbing down for the n00bs.

[DerDzvero]

At this point I don't think there is a single person working for DE that has a clue about design and uses his/hers brain.

-old Archwing was drifting for 1km in any direction

-old archwing could blink over entire map (and on top we can place energy pads mid-flight.. terrific)

So what do DE do?

- Break flight controls -no experimental flight

- break any sort of logical flight model and Mass/Acceleration physics

- introduce 3sec delay between blinks, making it completely useless.

 Good job indeed.. and we're speaking of incoming flight combat?!?LoL

I guess no skilled person would apply for a job there anytime soon.

Edited November 24, 2019 by DerDzvero

[DagoDrakh]

10 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

It's a worthy sacrifice for the ability to control where you're going.

The only thing that would have been needed for this to fix it is a "space break". It would stopped you on a dime like Itzal's cloaking.

[Aldain]

I knew how to pilot my Archwing well.

I still hated the absurd momentum.

Not many people liked the absurd momentum, or having to use Itzal exclusively because it had the blink break.

I'm sorry you liked it and that it changed, but I'm not sorry that I didn't like sliding around every time I tried to do a hard turn in a trench run.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Aldain

[Althaline]

6 hours ago, Taiepii said:

Maybe you didn't know but you could do a reverse loop that stop instantly your archwing.

 

6 hours ago, Taiepii said:

stop instantly your archwing

 

6 hours ago, Taiepii said:

instantly

Blatant lies. On the old system, it always took at least 2 flips to stop. Experimental Flight worked fantastically, but you couldn't use it on the Plains. The major issue I have in the current system is with the method of using Afterburners being the same as the forward Blink, preventing you from blinking at full speed.

[Nichivo]

1 hour ago, Iamabearlulz said:

 The major issue I have in the current system is with the method of using Afterburners being the same as the forward Blink, preventing you from blinking at full speed.

Bind your roll to a separate key.

[GruntBlender]

3 hours ago, DagoDrakh said:

The only thing that would have been needed for this to fix it is a "space break".

Nope. It needed far more work than that. The new system is a vast improvement.

 

3 hours ago, DerDzvero said:

break any sort of logical flight model

It's perfectly logical. Press a button to go in that direction. Only thing now is to tweak away that sprint-means-forward thing and we're good.

[RX-3DR]

4 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

You want to fly a plane, play MS Flight Simulator. Space Ninjas need consistency between ground movement and space movement.

Look, I'm not opposed to an option to turn 6DOF on, I'm really not. I'm opposed to calling a system becoming more accessible a dumbing down for the n00bs.

It's dumbing down the game to solve the problem of people rotating themselves upside down and becoming unable to navigate. Tell me something that the current system does better than experimental flight with a button to lock or force orientation to the horizon. Don't talk about the inertia and drifting, they are separate issues. Even the point of consistency hints at being a dumbing down, if you're removing the control mechanics of a helicopter and replacing it with a generic flight control for hover vehicles, it is a dumbing down.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Miyabi-sama]

2 часа назад, Nichivo сказал:

Bind your roll to a separate key.

Someone still double taps shift in 2k19?

 

 

Kidding, my friend does. He's not very bright.

[Steel_Rook]

18 hours ago, 2ndPersonPlural said:

The new system is certainly easier to control.  However, it mostly ignores the concept of inertia, and the unnatural movement actually makes dogfight combat less intuitive.  I also worry that this new system will put a lower skill cap on archwing movement, because it eliminates some of the more advanced looping and swinging movements that can be performed.

At the risk of sounding combative - why is that a bad thing? If Archwings are going to be pushed as part of the main gameplay loop (and not something most people hate and ignore) then they're going to need a movement system that doesn't constantly slide you out of position or ram you into walls until you've had considerable experience with it.

[Skaleek]

10 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

If Archwings are going to be pushed as part of the main gameplay loop (and not something most people hate and ignore) then they're going to need a movement system that doesn't constantly slide you out of position or ram you into walls until you've had considerable experience with it

Exactly this. We had momentum before, it didn't work out well. The new system is far better for the gameplay experience.

[GruntBlender]

8 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

solve the problem of people rotating themselves upside down and becoming unable to navigate.

See, even you agree there was a problem and now it's solved. I bet you hate those fancy schmancy automatic transmissions in cars dumbing down driving when stick shift gave better control of the acceleration.

Oh, and

13 hours ago, GruntBlender said:

I'm not opposed to an option to turn 6DOF on, I'm really not.

It's a matter of preference, innit.

[RX-3DR]

7 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

See, even you agree there was a problem and now it's solved. I bet you hate those fancy schmancy automatic transmissions in cars dumbing down driving when stick shift gave better control of the acceleration.

If a person doesn't know how to drive a car, I'd still call it the problem of being unable to drive a car. Does it mean it's a serious problem or one that requires a specific fix? Take an example, the problem of people getting too used to the Tonkor. Do I think it's a real problem and we should remove self-damage on explosive weapons? Not at all.

 Also, the issue is that this is releasing a racing game where you automatic and manual transmission. Then removing manual transmission or making the gears shift automatically only on manual.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RX-3DR

[GruntBlender]

7 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

If a person doesn't know how to drive a car, I'd still call it the problem of being unable to drive a car.

Whip de doo. Do you have anything to add beyond what's already been said?