Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, Sylonus said:

What I love is feeling powerful, my point is if they nerf the power fantasy out of this game, Destiny has better gunplay and graphics, there reason I'm here is for the power fantasy.

Will you not feel power fantasy with more limited range of Saryn's nuke?

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[Colyeses]

4 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Is nuking a thing in Destiny? You seem to love it very much.

It is, but with almost no uptime. Their equivalent of a 4 has a cooldown measured in minutes. And it's not even close to being as destructive as Saryn's abilities.

[IceColdHawk]

9 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Wait, you haven't watched the stream either? Because if you did, you should know your comparison is flawed. First of all, I don't ask you if you're gonna get Borderlands 3, it is you who starts the conversation by telling me you really need to get Borderlands 3. Then, after some time, you say: "Not at the moment."

And the things now sound in a different way, right?

All i wanted to say is that "not at the moment" doesn't necessarily mean it's coming next year.

[Xaero]

Just now, Colyeses said:

It is, but with almost no uptime. Their equivalent of a 4 has a cooldown measured in minutes. And it's not even close to being as destructive as Saryn's abilities.

If Sylons hadn't already replied, I'd say: "Aha! So people want cooldowns instead of nerfs".

[Xaero]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

All i wanted to say is that "not at the moment" doesn't necessarily mean it's coming next year.

Well yeah, but I'm only pointing out that the whole "Saryn will be nerfed thing" is not a joke and it will happen at some point.

[Sylonus]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

Will you not feel power fantasy with more limited range of Saryn's nuke?

Depends on the amount it is limited to, if past history is any indicator, I most likely won't any longer. Only nerf that I can think of that didn't kill the frame/weapon for me was Chroma, but that's just because his bonus damage went from "That's Absurd" to "Still enough to kill pretty much anything".

[Xaero]

Just now, Sylonus said:

Depends on the amount it is limited to, if past history is any indicator, I most likely won't any longer. Only nerf that I can think of that didn't kill the frame/weapon for me was Chroma, but that's just because his bonus damage went from "That's Absurd" to "Still enough to kill pretty much anything".

Well, as someone pointed out earlier, DE 2019 is different from DE 2017, looking at what they've done to melee system, chances of Saryn becoming a decent frame from completely broken are pretty high.

[Oreades]

5 hours ago, Colyeses said:

And you end up with a frame that's just gathering dust in your inventory.

Why not rework it so that it becomes engaging to play and you can pick it back up and enjoy it? They did it with Vauban.

Ever considered that maybe different people like different play styles? Hell your play style might not even be consistent between when you log in and when you log out of the game. 

Hicketyhecc there are what ~30 unique frames and I probably play four, maybe five,  with any serious consistency. That leaves ~26 that from that perspective are in clear and desperate need of a rework. Not any rework mind you a rework that makes them engaging for me so I hope you share my proclivities.  

 

[Colyeses]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Ever considered that maybe different people like different play styles?

Here's the problem: Saryn doesn't have a playstyle.

[844448]

Dear @[DE]Pablo,

From my observation and field on saryn, I can confidently say that saryn is actually alright, there's only one thing that makes her too strong.

The problem here is the spores and it's damage.

From what I see, the damage cap on spores is 100,000 which is pretty absurd for her first skill and unintentionally becomes a cheap, powerful nuke.

I think the only needed tweak is reducing her spores damage cap since her build-up and decay is on balance where you need to keep it up to deal maximum damage. My idea is capping the damage to 1,000 instead of 100,000 so it becomes more to utility and nuke fuel skill instead of one ability show.

Please do not reduce her spores status chance since it's a great armor stripping utility that helps on softening the enemies before you jump into the battle, and I use the spores as that purpose when I can't bring weapons with corrosive.

I hope this can be a consideration before making her rework.

Regards,

One of the registered losers

[Sylonus]

2 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Well, as someone pointed out earlier, DE 2019 is different from DE 2017, looking at what they've done to melee system, chances of Saryn becoming a decent frame from completely broken are pretty high.

We'll see, the Catchmoon is dead to me, at it's usable range why wouldn't I just melee? (Unless I'm playing Zephyr), Whips are dead to me, Gunblades are dead to me (These are actually still good statistically I admit, but they feel too awkward to use for me.) They killed Hydroid when they made his looting not stack with Nekros (Thankfully they reverted this). They accidentally nerfed Arcanes being procced by Exalted weapons and decided to keep it until there was pushback there. Itzal's Blink is dead, though we still all use Itzal 100% of the time because there's just no replacement for it (Unless you count operator pizza void dash as a competitor). 2019 DE still has a habit of ham-fistedly murdering things, by and large.

[tzadquiel]

1 minute ago, Sylonus said:

We'll see, the Catchmoon is dead to me, at it's usable range why wouldn't I just melee? (Unless I'm playing Zephyr), Whips are dead to me, Gunblades are dead to me (These are actually still good statistically I admit, but they feel too awkward to use for me.) They killed Hydroid when they made his looting not stack with Nekros (Thankfully they reverted this). They accidentally nerfed Arcanes being procced by Exalted weapons and decided to keep it until there was pushback there. Itzal's Blink is dead, though we still all use Itzal 100% of the time because there's just no replacement for it (Unless you count operator pizza void dash as a competitor). 2019 DE still has a habit of ham-fistedly murdering things, by and large.

catchmoon is still a dominant gun, because the entire nerf can be fixed with merely one exilus mod. 
but i like how you called out instances where things were reverted, like Hydroid, or accidental things like arcanes, which came back to their original states. not much ammo for that argument, i get it.

the rest is just your opinions and preferences. nobody cares, sorry.

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Here's the problem: Saryn doesn't have a playstyle.

That's a nice opinion you've got there but here's the thing, even if I subscribed to the notion that Saryn was in point of fact completely devoid of any playstyle.... that purported lack of play style in itself is a distinct and unique playstyle. 

Warframe is a game that allows you to dial in your own experience, if you are constantly choosing what you perceive to be oatmeal when there is a full banquet in front of you.... then you really have no one to blame but yourself. 

[Sylonus]

@tzadquiel

Originally 40 Meter Range with Zero falloff
Currently With Exilus Projectile speed: 28 Meter Max Range, falloff starting at 11.2 range and being very significant, 90% falloff by max range.

Anyone who says the entire nerf can be fixed by that is just bad at math, again, there's no reason I wouldn't just melee at it's usable range.

Not much ammo for the argument? That's all just this year, and it's exactly the importance here of showing how DE tends to overract, sometimes community fervor makes them revert it, sometimes they plow through anyway.

As for opinions and preferences and nobody caring? What do you think these forums are for, anyway? And I just talked about how people's input have made them revert things or rethink things in the past... I don't care if you care, I care if DE cares, and clearly sometimes at least, they do.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Sylonus

[Colyeses]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

that purported lack of play style in itself is a distinct and unique playstyle. 

It's not, because there's other frames that can do this without breaking the game. Inaros sees more use than Saryn but he's not in anyone's crosshairs despite having a reputation as an oversimplifying frame. The idea of having a frame that's nothing more than a weapons platform is fine, but it's not Saryn's unique prerogative.

[MaximEnglish]

It's understandable for DE to nerf her in order to keep things balance and fun for both New and Old players. Yes, you might said that "WF is the game where enemy scaling can be so broken that it penetrate my house roof and sky rocket to oblivion, and saryn is very effective ro deal with it!" But that's not the case here mate. If DE want to make Saryn co-op friendly because all of you just abusing 1 type of build to outrun and overshadow other frames then I would highly agreed on it. Nerf her to the ground? Ofc not just SMALL tweak to her ability so that people wouldn't just braindead abuse her 1 and 4 (Remember the ol' cast molt and spore saryn build? That's pure retardation over there). How to nerf her but keep her relevant in the current BS Meta? Well ez, for spore:

3 hours ago, Monochromeatic said:

My solution to Saryn is make her line of sight based and that the spore counter should drain energy, the higher it goes the more energy it consumes. This way she actively has to kill enemies and seek them out rather than just set and forget with one cast.

For her miasma: Add a cooldown for it (Which can be decreased with efficiency or duration since Monochromeatic Spores rework based on energy drain so it would be better if her 4 could use some help from dur and eff while keep her 1 in touch) and make it a charge based ability where the longer you charge the more range it covers and the longer the cooldown will be. This will be a good idea for avoiding people gaining energy and braindead spamming her 4. Instead, Saryn's player would now rely on good timing and coordination to successfully make use of her kit in order to be more effective, co-op friendly and in the same time appreciate and make good use of the energy that they have. Now wipe those lassie tears on your face and put down your 0 to none worth of pitch fork threat and try to think for a better way to rework  or nerf something in the game. Yes, DE may be bad at being transparent but try to show some cooperation (WF is a co-op game after all).

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

You're not wrong, but it's not the truth either.

Actually, it's pretty much on point...

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

ou pointed out *why* DE nerfs things, but that's not really a great argument. Pablo being offended that people play Saryn in ESO is his own personal issue.

 If you make a nuisance of yourself in groups, regardless of how much grinding and work you did to make a frame that "efficient", you run a historical risk of getting you special special nerfed by being a jack-hole in groups...That's not even new.

As such, it becomes your problem when players complain.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

It's easy to understand nerfs and why developers make the choice, but the reasons behind them aren't always good.
If this was a competitive PvP game that relied on e-sports for its longevity then balance would be crucial. As it stands for Warframe, balance is not that important. It's not irrelevant or pointless, but it's not at all as important as people will insist that it is.

You are making a couple of value assessments here and I see them as mostly self serving.

A player makes a nuisance of themself in groups leaning on a game mechanic and then complains when the mechanic is taken away to keep them from being a nuisance in the future.

Balance has nothing to do with it aside from ensuring that others can play around that player without complaint in the future.

Put simply, If you had to field 1 complaint or 3...which would you prefer?

Do you choose to lose 1 bad actor's business or the business of the 3 other players affected by it.

...The answer is common sense.

2 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

I value the actual experience above grand illusions about some optimal design that a player can never truly understand.
Note, I'm not saying that's what you're arguing, just saying that's what it sounds like to me.

The actual experience for the people playing around inconsiderate Saryns tends to suck...That's why it's getting nerfed.

I am baffled as to why people find that surprising tbh.

[Xaero]

What about absurd range?

[IceColdHawk]

19 minutes ago, 844448 said:

From what I see, the damage cap on spores is 100,000 which is pretty absurd for her first skill and unintentionally becomes a cheap, powerful nuke.

Have you played Saryn? That's more of a theoretical set limit than actually possible in practice. You'll never reach that cap because enemies die before that or your spores are decaying. And if you somehow through lots of patience and experimentation reach that cap, you're playing a mission so long that you wouldn't want to have a Saryn in there anyway.

3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

What about absurd range?

Since when are 16 meters absurd?

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Since when are 16 meters absurd?

Oh right, what am I even talking about. Saryn can't even be considered a nuker with that laughable range. I was just imagining things when I've seen Saryns deleting everything couple rooms away.

Forget what I've said earlier, her range should be buffed! A lot!

[IceColdHawk]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

Oh right, what am I even talking about. Saryn can't even be considered a nuker with that laughable range. I was just imagining things when I've seen Saryns deleting everything couple rooms away.

Forget what I've said earlier, her range should be buffed! A lot!

I'd appreciate it. Makes Saryn less straining to play in PoE and Orb Vallis.

[Xaero]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

I'd appreciate it. Makes Saryn less straining to play in PoE and Orb Vallis.

Yeah, she should be able to delete entire Orb Vallis in one cast.

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Have you played Saryn? That's more of a theoretical set limit than actually possible in practice. You'll never reach that cap because enemies die before that or your spores are decaying. And if you somehow through lots of patience and experimentation reach that cap, you're playing a mission so long that you wouldn't want to have a Saryn in there anyway.

 

Whoa whoa there. Those ambient Corrosive procs are nice for Endurance runs =P

But yea, the damage is more on-paper. Not real at those levels at least. She still gets a lot of kills but it's from tick rate not focused damage. I still prefer her original Viral Spores and Venom Dose. Only thing I liked about her (4th?) rework was they finally stopped pretending she could melee and made Toxic Lash work for guns.

She was far more group friendly and versatile before.

[Smilomaniac]

@Padre_Akais

I think understand the point you seem to be getting at, an obvious example would be Mirage + Synoid Simulor spam, which was fairly aggressive and intrusive.

That being said, I don't understand what your exact beef is, other than people being "bad actors" because they play the meta.

This has been a long standing thing on the forums, where people will incessantly complain about the behaviour of others and try to curtail it by nerfing things and getting rid of the meta. There is a solution to this, which is to join a clan, make friends and avoid PUGs/public games. If someone has an issue with how other people play, then this is not only the solution, it's the only right one. The alternative is to mess with what others do and have them behave differently on your behalf. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how extremely egotistical and wrong that is.

To answer your question, if I'd rather get rid of players that play the obnoxious meta or the three that complain about the other? I'd ignore the three, because they're running to the teacher when they could've done something about themselves.
It's not so simple as you set it up and I don't agree with you on this.

I see far, far more people trying to leech affinity off of others in ESO than I do Saryns playing it, nevermind anyone who bothers to try it legitimately with another warframe. All I'm saying is that Saryn is the symptom, not the problem(s).

As for why you would find it inconsiderate of others to play as Saryn in ESO, I don't really understand. Are you there to see how far you can go on your own merit along with three others that you consider people with 'pure' intentions? I could understand the challenge, but then why not try and get a group going specifically for that?

 

[tzadquiel]

22 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

@tzadquiel

Originally 40 Meter Range with Zero falloff
Currently With Exilus Projectile speed: 28 Meter Max Range, falloff starting at 11.2 range and being very significant, 90% falloff by max range.

Anyone who says the entire nerf can be fixed by that is just bad at math, again, there's no reason I wouldn't just melee at it's usable range.

you using melee over catchmoon is once again your preference. catchmoon's stats are worse on paper, but in reality, with twisted and narrow corridors of main tilesets, and no hitscan bullets, most players did and still do use catchmoon in close to medium range, because it has no self dmg. with exilus on projectile speed, this did not change much.

anyone saying catchmoon got a bad nerf which killed the gun is bad at evaluating reality. 

22 minutes ago, Sylonus said:

Not much ammo for the argument? That's all just this year, and it's exactly the importance here of showing how DE tends to overract, sometimes community fervor makes them revert it, sometimes they plow through anyway.

wait. just so I understand it clearly - you want to recall last years game making decisions in your case-building exercise? it's december, mate. once again, no ammo. gg