Calling it now: Archwing will be nerfed and become useless in Empyrean

[BlackVortex]

1 minute ago, WindigoTG said:

Meanwhile, my teammate honeybadgering his way through Empyrean on Elytron without a hint of care.

even elytron cant tank crewman halfway through saturn anymore

[Kerberos-3]

10 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

even elytron cant tank crewman halfway through saturn anymore

I mean, if the guy wants to put himself through that, then more power to him. I use it because I like it and I refuse to use Amesha out of principle, so yeah.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Kerberos-3

[BlackVortex]

1 minute ago, Kerberos-3 said:

I mean, if the guy wants to put himself through that, then more power to him. I use it because I like it and I refuse to use Amesha out of principle, so yeah.

same for me, but I feel like the elytron is pretty slow at times

[MiMiren]

I don't care about archwing.

[Kerberos-3]

1 minute ago, BlackVortex said:

same for me, but I feel like the elytron is pretty slow at times

For me, it's not the speed thats problematic as far as Elytron is concerned. The missile battery on wings shouldn't flit about like a space ballerina, thats what Itzal is for. It's the fact that the targeting for Elytron's abilities is awful for space combat, and the damage on it's abilities is pitifully low.

[(XBOX)Heart of Bastet]

53 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

They're not. We just have pimped out archwings. Everyone's complaining now because they haven't hit endgame gear. When you hit endgame in RJ Aw is obsolete with the exception of amesha slow... cause it's op.

People are saying their Railjacks are getting shredded in the first mission, how is that something to not be concerned about.

Edited December 17, 2019 by (XB1)Heart of Bastet
Removed a word

[zakaryx]

Elytron needs some serious love to be anything but a joke in railjack.

 

 

[BETAOPTICS]

On 2019-12-16 at 11:45 AM, Zahnny said:

Dang. And here I was thinking Warframes were meant to be tools of war that were insanely difficult to kill. Guess I'm wrong in that regard too.

Warframes yes, their archwings? No. But I do get where you are coming from, even if the previous commenter was right canonically that Archwings are not meant to be battlestations the same way Railjack and Warframes are. Question is, is it good gameplay? I don't know, depends what level of engagement you are looking for. I personally like the change of phase for the difficulty that once did in fact exist in the game. But I am not arrogant enough to think my way or highway, so who am I to tell?

[DoomFruit]

14 hours ago, Enexemander said:

Space combat requires a lot more awareness than general FPS gameplay (in any game). I've played with and trained enough people in Elite Dangerous to know "My archwing got one shot!" to translate directly to "I got shot in the back from a crew ship I didn't notice and ate all the missiles in the clip."

That's only part of the problem. The other issue is that there is almost no visual or audio feedback when you do get shot. I've died to ordinary fighters simply because I had no idea that I was being fired at from behind.

5 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

Odonata with shield up dies

Yeah, I realise this after running a few more missions and getting shredded before I can even get in range. The shield indeed does nothing. I don't know if flares help at all. About the only thing that does is blinking past the homing blob swarm... but then you run into the problem of the horrible nerf in the form of cooldown.

I still use Odonata, simply because I like it (and as someone else mentioned above, I also have some deeply buried aversion to using Amesha).

[Skaleek]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Heart of Bastet said:

People are saying their Railjacks are getting shredded in the first mission, how is that something to not be concerned about

People are learning how to play.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

34 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

People are learning how to play.

What do you mean learning how to play? Getting nuked in 1 shot does not all of a sudden make you understand how to play 

[Zahnrad]

23 hours ago, zakaryx said:

Apologies for quoting you twice, but an alternative way they could fix these mods is if they worked like Wisp's Reservoirs. e.g. you only need to get close to the ship and you get the effect for a set duration, maybe 40s where you are free to distance yourself from the Railjack again.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

from what I've seen of other forum posts, it appears the consensus is that Archwing is better because of how underpowered the railjack is: every other thread mentions that it has very little health and weak weaponry, with stronger versions only available after an intense grind. I think DE would be better focusing on buffing the Railjack and it's components, or at least the starting ones, can't speak for Upgraded parts though. it's less a case of Archwing being too stronk and more that the Railjack isn't balanced properly.

I'm guessing in the new year DE will eventually get around to addressing this, but until then, the Amesha is probably going to be the go-to. that's also not counting how all the Other Archwings kinda suck (I love the Elytron, because it has a literal nuke, but yet it's so damn weak!!). there's a ton of issues that need looking at, but it will take them a long time to fix them all.

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

What do you mean learning how to play? Getting nuked in 1 shot does not all of a sudden make you understand how to play 

You don't get nuked in one shot in your railjack. Did you read what i was responding to? I was responding to someone saying railjack base is squishier than AW base. Which is blatantly false.

I can take a naked railjack through all of earth without issue now. It took me a while to learn the cadence of railjack missions, but, like all things in Warframe, once you learn the pattern you begin to perform much better and do everything faster. Not to mention the intrinsics give huge QoL buffs.

Crewships left unchecked will make life hell for your RJ. I always tell my crew to prioritize those crewships so i dont have to deal with constant boarders.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Skaleek

[BlackVortex]

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

 I don't know if flares help at all.

Elytrons 2 seems to work vs normal fighters, but then seems to do nothing against Crewships

have not tested the odonata version though

[Skaleek]

Personally, since the elytron is the "bomber archwing" i think it and only it should be able to take out crewships. Boom, now people have a reason to play elytron. Obviously this is in conjuction with all archwings getting a survivability bump.

[DoomFruit]

29 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I can take a naked railjack through all of earth without issue now.

Solo, without any intrinsics and killing everything using the railjack's weapons only?

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Solo, without any intrinsics and killing everything using the railjack's weapons only?

If i was without instrinsics or a crew I would have to use archwing. DE explicitly said the mode isn't solo friendly though. Give me a few intrinsics or a crew and yes i can get through earth on a naked RJ.

For intrinsics (to solo)i need to be able to port back to my RJ. I need to be able to use my slingshot to board crewships, and I need to be able to take out crewships with the forward artillery. With these i can solo.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Skaleek

[BlackVortex]

33 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

If i was without instrinsics or a crew I would have to use archwing. DE explicitly said the mode isn't solo friendly though. Give me a few intrinsics or a crew and yes i can get through earth on a naked RJ.

For intrinsics (to solo)i need to be able to port back to my RJ. I need to be able to use my slingshot to board crewships, and I need to be able to take out crewships with the forward artillery. With these i can solo.

without using AW to take out fighters, this will be a pain, a naked RJ is heavily underpowered and the powercurve of RJ missions is fairly steep

this would probably mean your crew is non-stop repairing

I do feel that RJ should have a bit more base survivability, and Crewships should get a hard nerf when it comes to damage

I use my ship for Veil but even on earths early missions one Crewships volley of missiles and my RJ is almost dead

They should:

1. Nerf it's damage
2. Elytrons 2, Itzals 2 and Odonatas 2(not tested but seeing as how the other 2s don't work I'm assuming Odonatas 2 does nothing) should be able to get rid of the homing effect of Crewships

Edited December 17, 2019 by BlackVortex

[spirit_of_76]

On 2019-12-16 at 2:01 AM, RX-3DR said:

Even if they wanted to buff up the other Archwings, there's no graceful way to do with with the current gameplay model they've gone with. Between Blink and noclip-tier movement, there's no way to develop gameplay to where evasion really works. They would have to dump out a skill to replace with some form of excessive damage reduction because that's the only thing that works against rapid homing weapons. The only other way is to nerf enemies so hard into the dirt that every Archwing can survive comfortably.

It's essentially Arbitrations all over again where the frames with extreme damage mitigation are used 90% of the time to combat poor damage balancing.

they can make use of engagement ranges the itzal should only be engaged at close range (stealth fighter/bomber/recon depending on ordnance)

the elytra should be fast and do lots of damage it should rely on its ability to kill and speed to win (light strike fighter/interceptor should range from A-10- F-15 depending on build and ordnance choice)

the Odanata  has a sheild and should beable to take a hit or 2 but lacks the speed and stealth of the first to ( think F-4 phantom good at every thing but not the best at any thing)

the amesha should be tanky and slow while it lacks killing power it still has suport abilitys and can heal allise and disrupt enemies (see the B-52 BUFF and B-29 for an Idea as to what it should do)

honestly they could bring  the odanata and the elytron up to the amessha by buffing their kit but it would take a alot of buffing to do

the itzal needs to a system over haul when it comes to agro and the AI if it is a stealth/electronic warfare wing it should have the abilty to lose and or disable heat seaking missals and target locks. it will be slower than the odanata but will be harder for the AI to engage because they will not be able to target it until it is closer 

also Arch melee should be added as a melee subclass on the relevant melee classes and replaced with ordnance appropriate for a ship born fighter.  we also need a better boost mode and improvements/ revisions to blink that give us the ability to control distance and blink sideways to lose missile locks.  

as for the ordnance packages it should be stuff like a torpedo, extra armor/fuel, radar arrays, missiles, dumb rockets ect.  

honestly just buffing the elytorn's speed would help a lot I can't out run a rail jack even with blink and the arch wing speed mod.  

[Fire2box]

On 2019-12-16 at 1:45 AM, Zahnny said:

Dang. And here I was thinking Warframes were meant to be tools of war that were insanely difficult to kill. Guess I'm wrong in that regard too.

That's out the window when you bring a enemy to it's literal knees. Then they pop up, throw you and your frame instantly dies.

[SenorClipClop]

Amesha has been broken since its release date, and a lack of compelling Archwing content up until now has allowed Amesha to stay that way. It wasn't really turning off gameplay too much because there was very little gameplay for it to turn off. A balance pass to Archwings might nerf Amesha to the point where you have to acutally play the game. If that happened, calling it now, there would be at least 12 Overly Dramatic Cry Threads about how "Amesha is useless and broken and the worst Archwing ever!" but it'd still tank better than any other Archwing and still keep you tons of safe, just not constantly untouchable like it does now. People want challenging gameplay, but people also shriek like children when their godmode buttons are taken away, and I'm really hoping those aren't the same people.

Anyway, to balance free space Archwings I think it'd be fairly easy to buff the 3 (4) Archwings that could use a buff. Much easier than, say, balancing 42 (+variants) frames. But honestly in my experience I think we mostly just need Archwing/enemy interactions to be more consistent with the rest of the game. I've been running Itzal in Railjack missions and I get downed veeery quickly (which is fine for a tactical stealth craft imo), but a lot of the time it's because I'm unable to shake enemy targeting. If a projectile is targeting me, neither Rolls nor Blink nor Penumbra will drop that lock. I even get gunned down by Crewships while remaining invisible (they might not be programmed to realize the invis). If we had more consistent skills to evade fire, I think the non-Amesha Archwings would be a lot more viable than they are now.

[SenorClipClop]

37 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

it should have the abilty to lose and or disable heat seaking missals and target locks

Blink used to do this. Now it doesn't for some reason.

[Skaleek]

11 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Anyway, to balance free space Archwings I think it'd be fairly easy to buff the 3 (4) Archwings that could use a buff

If they make all archwings able to survive, amesha becomes a less attractive choice. I still think amesha should stay as the most "survivable" AW, but if they gave all the Archwings survivability tools that would definitely be like, ok well i can play amesha and never die, or play elytron and only rarely die. This also relies on a second part though: buffing the other archwings and giving them roles.

So far the only easy answer that stands out in my mind: Giving elytron (the bomberwing) the ability to destroy crew ships with its abilities. This would automatically elevate it to an attractive role for players who like to archwing but find it tedious to board the ships or slingshot the ships or use dome charges to remove the crewships etc.

For the Itzal: It should be the fastest ship out there. It is a scout/recon class. It needs to be fast and able to intercept fighters. If I could outrun (without blink) ships and chase them down with my guns, while still being able to survive reasonably, itzal would probably be my top choice because of how I like to play my space sims.

That leaves us with odanata. Well.... Im guessing the Odanata is a space superiority fighter. I'm not really sure what you could do to make her attractive. I would say at the very least her powers need to have a punch... a scaling punch. You cant just have them good on earth and then fall off in the veil. By the way, Railjack abilities currently suffer from this falloff problem... missile volley is useless after earth.

Anyways, just a few basic ideas i stole from the best series of games ever made: Descent Freespace 1/2.

Right now Amesha's survivability aside, her 3 is also a potent CC slowing all enemies which is truly the reason I use her. The invulnerability is just an added perk. Her 3's slow probably needs the nerf. Sorry guys.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Skaleek

[SenorClipClop]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Heart of Bastet said:

People are saying their Railjacks are getting shredded in the first mission, how is that something to not be concerned about.

Because playing brand-new Railjacks in the early missions is like playing an Unranked, Unmodded Warframe in early missions. The first couple nodes on Earth are okay, but the next few are going to start really beating on new players.

However, the second you get a few Mods (Avionics) and some ranks behind them (spend Dirac on Avionics and Grid), your survivability shoots up like... like leveling and Modding your Warframe. Play a few missions and you can pretty easily get double (or more) the base Health and Armor on your Railjack. Mine currently sits at 1467 Armor and 2200 Health, and those are just from Mods I got from the first 4 nodes. Upgrades make a huge difference in Warframe and Railjack proves to be no exception.