I'm ok with a Amesha nerf\rework...

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

I doubt DE will balance it one go or any time soon. It is in a terrible condition and it is by no means a simple tweak to fix this mess. There are 4 Archwing and all of them need a total rework and it is more than a simple balance pass.

 

A full rework was what they were committing to in the stream, which yes will probably take quite some time and I hope they take it. (it may very well be tied to the modular archwing system that is still in the works)

[Smilomaniac]

2 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

what was the last thing de over nerfed to the point of uselessness? 

The Itzal. By their own logic there's now no other archwing worth using than the Amesha. Had Itzal retained its own blink ability, it would've been useful in Railjack.

The Tonkor and by extension all self-damage explosive weapons. Instead of fixing the headshot issue with the weapon, they made it pointless to use due to its low rate of fire.

The Telos Boltace, instead of tuning the waves, they made it pull enemies in below your melee swing and then push them out, making it actually useless.

The Catchmoon. It's not useless, but it was over nerfed.

Now I'm sure you're going to sit and pick everything apart that I just said, because your sphincter is so tight that it competes with the crushing gravity of a black hole, because I wrote 'uselessness'. We both know that you're not so infantile or stupid that you need to take everything said literally, so spare me the inevitable quote war and just tell me whether you understood my point or not, that DE overdo their nerfs.

I don't care in the slightest if you don't agree. Because you'd be wrong.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Amesha's invulnerability will be nerfed.  By default, it makes any changes to other Archwings negligible because being alive to do anything trumps all.  It will probably be nerfed into a form of damage resistance instead.

All archwings need more armor.  The Elytron has a whopping 150 at base.  Not impressive.  Currently it has a maximum of 3510 ehp with armor and hp mods.  It's ehp is good enough for bullets from cutters, but cannon/missile fire from crewships, elite cutters, taktis(?,) and to my experience the odonata's and elytron's supposed missile counter measure abilities don't actually counter missiles, so I can either fly straight backwards to shoot them all down and make sure not a single missile sideblinds me, or I can just eat missiles and die instantly.  Odonata's energy shell just doesn't stop explosives from reaching it either (please give this ability hp, take it off a timer and allow no damage through.)  Something has to give.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Lost_Cartographer

[Cubewano]

4 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

The Itzal. By their own logic there's now no other archwing worth using than the Amesha. Had Itzal retained its own blink ability, it would've been useful in Railjack.

The Tonkor and by extension all self-damage explosive weapons. Instead of fixing the headshot issue with the weapon, they made it pointless to use due to its low rate of fire.

The Telos Boltace, instead of tuning the waves, they made it pull enemies in below your melee swing and then push them out, making it actually useless.

The Catchmoon. It's not useless, but it was over nerfed.

Now I'm sure you're going to sit and pick everything apart that I just said, because your sphincter is so tight that it competes with the crushing gravity of a black hole, because I wrote 'uselessness'. We both know that you're not so infantile or stupid that you need to take everything said literally, so spare me the inevitable quote war and just tell me whether you understood my point or not, that DE overdo their nerfs.

I don't care in the slightest if you don't agree. Because you'd be wrong.

The Itzal remained perfectly functional and desirable after its rework, remaining the fastest archwing in the game still and with a very good loot pull and stealth, speculating about how it would be in a mode that didn't exist at the time of balancing isn't relevant. For the state of balance it was balanced under it was very useful still post rework. 

I didn't much use the Telos Boltace prior to its more recent re-balancing but going by it's previous stats it seemed fairly average not useless for the state of the games balance at the time. 

Last I heard on the catchmoon post nerf it was still the most used secondary by a massive margin so your assertion it was over nerfed seems incredibly off base to reality. I've also used the catchmoon post nerf personally and can likewise say it still seems incredibly off base from reality to say it was overnerfed. 

The tonkor is maybe the only weapon you listed that I'd feasibly agree was over nerfed by its changes, turning it into a niche tool for the most part. 

So your most recent example of DE overnerfing something is a rebalance from March of 2017?

(I can't agree with a point you haven't managed to make, you say they over do their nerfs but have to go back several years to find the most recent example, that seems dubious at best)

[CopperBezel]

3 hours ago, More-L said:

DE Scott claimed that archwings will/should be balanced around Railjack moving forward. Amesha does need a nerf (damage reduction instead of immunity.) 

I will laugh between choking sobs if they turn Watchful Swarm into damage reduction and call it a nerf to balance her down. Hello infinite energy.

There have been a lot of threads on potential arching changes and what buffs and nerfs might be appropriate. I do think that for the content that existed before Railjack, Itzal made sense, Amesha was broken, and Elytron was useless, and that any attempt to balance the three against each other and the new content is going to require an Ember level rework for Itzal and essentially an entirely new kit for Elytron, who's got nothing salvageable in any form.

[Smilomaniac]

18 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

blablabla missed the point

ok boomer

[OniDax]

It's not enough to nerf Amesha and buff the other archwings. The real issue is the health that fighters have, the damage that fighters do, and the speed at which fighters fly. Fighter health, damage, and speed need to be nerfed. Then, and only then, should Amesha be nerfed and other archwings buffed. Why? Because it won't really matter if Amesha is nerfed and other archwings are buffed a little if the fighters still do the damage that they do, are still as fast as they are, and are still tanky.  They'll still wipe the floor with archwings. If the only thing that makes archwings survivable is one ability that negates all damage then the issue isn't the ability. It's the fact that none of the archwings are survivable. So there can be no solution without nerfing the fighters as well. Archwings and fighters need to be balanced together, and since it's only four players and no friendly AI (there really should be some friendly AI fighters alongside us), one archwing needs to be able to take on multiple fighters fairly quickly. Fighters need to be cannon fodder. Their strength should be in their numbers, not in their tanky health, fast speed, and high damage output.

Edited January 6, 2020 by TheGildedOni

[Vox_Preliator]

That is literally exactly what they said their intention was.

[CopperBezel]

@Smilomaniac I don't have any interest in the unrelated topic you're arguing with Cubewano about. If you feel I missed your point, maybe that's because I was responding to other people about other things.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 hours ago, xS0nico said:

...with the condition that you buff the other 3 Archwings aswell.

Because seriously, they are godawful.
Elytron is a meme, Odonata Shield is a giant lie against Crewships and Iztal would be a neat combo for Railjack if it wasn't for the fact that the combo "Blink+Invisibility" is now either gone or annoying to use. (didn't test it, but judging by how Blink works it's either one of those 2)

And yes, i know that Railjack now gives permanent Archwing buffs, but they required a lot of grinding (i believe Lv.8) and i don't think it's going to change a whole lot. Maybe the blink buff, but that's it really.

I hate the fact that out of 4 only 1 it's the only decent option. 

Or...ORRRR...

Leave Amesha alone.  Buff other Archwings.  This leaves non-Empyrean missions largely unaffected.

Maybe then add additional scaling buffs to Empyrean for AW or within intrinsics:

GIVE AW IT’S OWN INTRINSICS RANKING CIRCLE.

[Sapphirya]

5 hours ago, xS0nico said:

And yes, i know that Railjack now gives permanent Archwing buffs, but they required a lot of grinding (i believe Lv.8) and i don't think it's going to change a whole lot. Maybe the blink buff, but that's it really.

Hi, I have all four of them and fly Itzal. They make no functional difference in how archwing works in Empyrean. I still get one-shotted by crewships, fighters still outrun me unless I'm blinking after them, and my Cosmic Crush and drones continue to be comically useless against the mobs here.

[AlphaPHENIX]

5 hours ago, xS0nico said:

"Blink+Invisibility" is now either gone or annoying to use. (didn't test it, but judging by how Blink works it's either one of those 2)

(Have tested.)
It's annoying to use.

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- Itzal should be a hit-and run archwing, functioning like a Fighter. it should have faster flying speed (all Archwings can Blink now so it won't be the Meta) and it's drones be buffed. maybe also give it increased damage whilst moving?

This is the exact tactic I was using with Itzal when I was testing Railjack for the first time.  The Drones have been useless for a long time now.  To the point I only use them as a marker for where enemies are located before railjack.  For Railjack, they are extra worthless and need buffing.  

I haven't had the chance to re-test to verify if DE fixed the Invis with Itzal like they said.  So without it's invis, you need to constantly be moving or you WILL get shot down.  Something I don't have a problem with, but I can see how those not familiar with Flight Combat games might.  

[AlphaPHENIX]

Amesha is in the exact same position right now, but that does not mean events have to play out the same way.
Unless DE nerfs the enemies in Railjack missions, which they won't and I know they won't.

Here's the deal, it's simply impossible to do anything worthwhile in Railjack Archwing currently, unless you are using Amesha. That is a problem that needs to be fixed, yes. But not by a nerf to Amesha. Why? You loose Amesha's invulnerability, you loose literally the only way to reliably stay alive in Railjack Archwing.
Buffing the health and shields of all the archwings doesn't work either, because then you will be nigh-unkillable in regular Archwing missions.
So just nerf Railjack enemies and buff other archwings's abilities to be on par with Amesha. It's that easy!
Why do you humans always have to make things more complicated then necessary?

[AlphaPHENIX]

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

GIVE AW IT’S OWN INTRINSICS RANKING CIRCLE.

Where do I petition for this?

[AlphaPHENIX]

39 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

...you need to constantly be moving or you WILL get shot down.  Something I don't have a problem with, but I can see how those not familiar with Flight Combat games might.  

As someone who has only played Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X and War Thunder, personally I find the few times I don't happen to die are when I focus so much on chasing a single enemy fighter...that by the end, I find myself 5000m away from everything else.

Oh and the fact that I bug out so hard that crewships ocasionally ignore me, as I charge straight at them from the front, may be a factor in my death count too.

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

As someone who has only played Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X and War Thunder, personally I find the few times I don't happen to die are when I focus so much on chasing a single enemy fighter...that by the end, I find myself 5000m away from everything else.

Oh and the fact that I bug out so hard that crewships ocasionally ignore me, as I charge straight at them from the front, may be a factor in my death count too.

I had to truly learn Dogfighting and Aerial Tactics when Ace Combat 6 came out with it's multiplayer PvP.  In the PvP, you had to stay moving or you would get shot out of the air faster than you could blink.  Aerial tactics as in using the F-14's long range radar and phoenix missiles to snipe enemies before they got in close enough to use their own radar.  Great Times.  😄  

Using AW (Itzal) in Railjack gives me a similar experience.  Enemies everywhere and you can't get hit once.  

edit:  I honestly think that once the bugs are worked out, it will be AWESOME.  😄  

Edited January 4, 2020 by DatDarkOne

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

I had to truly learn Dogfighting and Aerial Tactics when Ace Combat 6 came out with it's multiplayer PvP.  In the PvP, you had to stay moving or you would get shot out of the air faster than you could blink.  Aerial tactics as in using the F-14's long range radar and phoenix missiles to snipe enemies before they got in close enough to use their own radar.  Great Times.  😄  

Using AW (Itzal) in Railjack gives me a similar experience.  Enemies everywhere and you can't get hit once.  

Ya, fun in it's own way...would be better if the enemies could be damaged by anything except the Cyngas. Only craft I can ever kill is the Outrider type, and only if I have my Sancti Tigris with me through the use of certain bugs features. (not having the damn thing go immortal on me because of crewship healing fields is another requirement)

[CopperBezel]

The archwing slingshot sure is something, isn't it. It can launch you all the way to a world where there are still hitscan archguns.

Edited January 4, 2020 by CopperBezel

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

would be better if the enemies could be damaged by anything except the Cyngas.

Funny thing about that.  I had been saying the Cyngas was good ever since it was released.  Just either no one believed me or was interested.  LOL.   It's stats are quite deceiving compared to it's actual performance. 

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Funny thing about that.  I had been saying the Cyngas was good ever since it was released.  Just either no one believed me or was interested.  LOL.   It's stats are quite deceiving compared to it's actual performance. 

It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I just can't be bothered to get any new arch-weapons since DE decided to spread the parts across syndicates and presumably remove them from mission drop-tables.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

37 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Where do I petition for this?

Empyrean feedback.  I posted this there also, which is more constructive.  The more times the idea is posted there, the more likely to be considered.

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Empyrean feedback.  I posted this there also, which is more constructive.  The more times the idea is posted there, the more likely to be considered.

[GPrime96]

7 hours ago, More-L said:

(damage reduction instead of immunity.)

TBH, Amesha needs this now for her 4 since her immunity from that Ability broke in Railjack.

Edited January 4, 2020 by GPrime96

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

7 hours ago, xS0nico said:

...with the condition that you buff the other 3 Archwings aswell.

Because seriously, they are godawful.
Elytron is a meme, Odonata Shield is a giant lie against Crewships and Iztal would be a neat combo for Railjack if it wasn't for the fact that the combo "Blink+Invisibility" is now either gone or annoying to use. (didn't test it, but judging by how Blink works it's either one of those 2)

And yes, i know that Railjack now gives permanent Archwing buffs, but they required a lot of grinding (i believe Lv.8) and i don't think it's going to change a whole lot. Maybe the blink buff, but that's it really.

I hate the fact that out of 4 only 1 it's the only decent option. 

Considering how de "buffs" other things when they nerf the 1 good thing in its class, it'll be safe to say all archwing will be equally garbage.