Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Please revert the change to Gas. For years players have used Gas as an AoE Toxin but to have only deal Gas DoT in the proc’d AoE plume is just... odd. This legitimately messes up a lot of builds that people have used for years with dedicated armor-stripping Frames and Frames that used Gas with Finisher setups.

And now that there’s a confirmation that Blast doesn’t proc knockdown anymore, I feel that this is the biggest offender. For the purposes of CC, I’ve used Blast extensively. This especially so on Sentinel Weapons just so that my Sentinel can cover any blindsides I have and help me CC any nearby enemies I’m not attentive to. If anything, please switch Impact’s proc with Blast just so that Impact can utilize the lowered accuracy proc while Blast can efficiently be an opt-in for enemy stagger. This would be the best approach for these status ailments as this change extends itself to a multitude of weapons (from melee to explosive weapons) where Impact and/or Blast is a fixed element in those weapons. The only tweaks that would be necessary are the weapons that have guaranteed Impact procs on them.

So DE, please reconsider.

[CopperBezel]

The only issue I can see with switching Blast and Impact is that Impact and Puncture would now have very similar purposes and effects and both be in the IPS pool, which is the set of procs we see a few of all the time but have limited tools to build for. But IMO, Puncture is the real offender there, as its status has never made any sense at all, so switching Blast and Impact and giving Puncture something else to do, or no proc at all and raising its armor penetration bonuses a bit, would be the better choice.

I think Gas at least is being worked on, though. 

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Gonna need more concrete evidence to show that you're not just ignoring part of the calculations to suit your argument or including the randomness of Rivens.

Rivens are cancer and never should be part of balance, also no, you're the one ignoring calculations. Pris Grak has 2.5 bullets a shot at 33 fire rate, on status instead of hybrid setup thats between 71 to 77% status chance, thats lowballed/accounting a few recoil misses average of 52 procs a sec. Even on a hybrid ammo conservative setup it hits a lowball 22 procs per second (likely 29+ going HM).

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Most likely you're misleading purposefully as a means to 'undermine' the 'argument'. Which is hilarious considering it's just straight number compare.

Nice projecting.

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

For the shotties themselves, let's cut out the approximations and get down to the hard numbers, to be certain

First state are you going about post or be nerf and more notably, what you consider even a status build if not max potential status output (aka is it base, both multishot, 3-4 status chance mods and reload or fire rate or their nightmare/hybrid statted mod for last slot depending on if burst or sustained or something else).

Also how the hell did you get those numbers? Pre patch bare/no build tigris prime is at a flat 1 status a second (11.3% status, 16 pellets across 2 shots every 1.8 seconds if you perfectly time reloads).

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Only that's still a superiority in damage procs favouring the Tigris, it just casts a less flattering light on the debate of how the capped statuses accumulate on the 'damage based' status gun.

The only guns that arent "intended" to do damage are tool ones like the zakti and pox. You still dont have a actual point supporting the idea that the tigris which by DEs own gun rebalance was set at 30% status chance pre this pellet-based nerf patch should somehow be worse than the boar at status despite them given the same stats for that matter. Or strun for that matter which should be better than both (post patch TP and BP are at 9 status applied a shot with Stun Wraith at 12 on average, thus per second status being at 12 for TP, 39~ for Boar and 28~ for Strun on status builds, vs prior where the 3 across a longer fight actually averaged out far closer, all being status shotties, vs now where they literally cant).

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Push through all the numbers and there's still a correlation of damage and proc rate.

No, not really. There is a total attempted "guideline for dps" DE tried to enforce with the gun rework yee ago, but that was balanced exactly on what the cost to hit 100% status was for shotties (why so many of the earlier possible pickups got 28%).

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Using @GilgaMelchi's list, I don't see anything penalising pellet count at all. In terms of the actual status chance improvements to each shotgun in the list, other than a couple anomalous points, there's a negligible difference or even a slight upward trend in the improvement value as compared pellets per shot.

Ok, do me a favour and look at the little box which says "actual buff", you see how guns with lower status chance and/or pellet count have a higher number in there*? Can you give me a guess then why multiplying the assumed per shot status chance and then dividing that number by pellet count raw instead of by the status chance pellet calculation would be a nerf based on pellet count (or well, buff the lower your status chance was)?

*you can ignore the exergis since due to the math DE used/mult of 3 and it having 3 pellets, it was a 1:1 conversion of prior status per shot to status per pellet instead of a nerf

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Rivens are cancer and never should be part of balance, also no, you're the one ignoring calculations. Pris Grak has 2.5 bullets a shot at 33 fire rate, on status instead of hybrid setup thats between 71 to 77% status chance, thats lowballed/accounting a few recoil misses average of 52 procs a sec. Even on a hybrid ammo conservative setup it hits a lowball 22 procs per second (likely 29+ going HM).

Okay, so you are just obscuring the comparison for the sake of it, then. Muddying up the details with specific flavourful builds when we're talking about baselines of status chance with/without typical 4*60%s.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

First state are you going about post or be nerf and more notably, what you consider even a status build if not max potential status output (aka is it base, both multishot, 3-4 status chance mods and reload or fire rate or their nightmare/hybrid statted mod for last slot depending on if burst or sustained or something else).

I gave the pre- and post-update baseline values - fire rate is a to-taste option, and multishot is, at most, further favouring shotguns - they can use VigiArm as well as Hell's, so that's irrelevant, while Hell's is strictly better than Split. Standard practice is to minimise the variables, you know. Otherwise we'd be arguing arbitrary build decisions, or worse, completely daft things like jamming fire rates on there at the expense of damage mods.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Also how the hell did you get those numbers? Pre patch bare/no build tigris prime is at a flat 1 status a second (11.3% status, 16 pellets across 2 shots every 1.8 seconds if you perfectly time reloads).

I was clear as day on how those numbers are achieved. Fire rate, mag size, reload time. Reload Quotient = (MS/FR) / ((MS/FR)+RT); or in layman's terms, the proportional time spent shooting full until empty out of the time it takes to empty and reload. This is what we need to figure out how much of your burst is indefinitely sustained, whether that's damage output (FR * DamagePerShot) or bullets per second for potential procs (FR * Pellet * Multishot).

This equation does have one minor caveat which is for precisely one-shot weapons, where the fire rate essentially cannot function. Luckily this only applies to.. the Exergis and not a lot else. Vectis if we were extending comparisons beyond generic assault rifles, I suppose. Otherwise, the fire rate still accounts for the time between shots even if the mag size is lower than fire rate. 10 FR / 5 mag = 0.5 seconds to empty. 

Using that handy list previously provided, that's 4.4% per pellet for the Tigris in the old calculation, which empties in a second and reloads in 1.8, giving a reload quotient of (2/2) / (2/2+1.8) = 0.357 approximately. Two shots per second, 8 pellets per shot (we're not interested in multishot). 2*8*0.357*0.044 = 0.25 appx. procs per second.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

The only guns that arent "intended" to do damage are tool ones like the zakti and pox. You still dont have a actual point supporting the idea that the tigris which by DEs own gun rebalance was set at 30% status chance pre this pellet-based nerf patch should somehow be worse than the boar at status despite them given the same stats for that matter. Or strun for that matter which should be better than both (post patch TP and BP are at 9 status applied a shot with Stun Wraith at 12 on average, thus per second status being at 12 for TP, 39~ for Boar and 28~ for Strun on status builds, vs prior where the 3 across a longer fight actually averaged out far closer, all being status shotties, vs now where they literally cant)

I'm not sure if you're just having issues reading the numbers but I've explained it quite clearly. Tigris = Fewer, Bigger Damage Procs. Boar = More, Lower Damage Procs. Again, the question of efficacy in reaching status caps in the new system remains, but purely for dealing damage in status procs alone, the Tigris is numerically superior to the Boar. This also wasn't affected at all by the update, as both shotties were altered in the exact same mathematical way, meaning neither damage ratio nor proc per second ratio between those shotguns has changed, only how they compare to other weapons has changed.

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Ok, do me a favour and look at the little box which says "actual buff", you see how guns with lower status chance and/or pellet count have a higher number in there*? Can you give me a guess then why multiplying the assumed per shot status chance and then dividing that number by pellet count raw instead of by the status chance pellet calculation would be a nerf based on pellet count (or well, buff the lower your status chance was)?

*you can ignore the exergis since due to the math DE used/mult of 3 and it having 3 pellets, it was a 1:1 conversion of prior status per shot to status per pellet instead of a nerf

I looked at both actual buff columns. In fact, I did one better and charted them myself.

If you keep the anomalies in there is a very minor downward trend (y = –0.0044x for status-per-pellet, y = –0.0025x for overall status chance).
If you take them out there's a more reasonable upward trend (y = 0.0069x per-pellet, y = 0.0177x overall chance).

Those anomalous entries are the Corinth (above curve for 6 pellets) and the Strun Wraith (below curve for 10 pellets).

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist
Added a relevant mention for reloading quotient for the Exergis

[Andele3025]

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Okay, so you are just obscuring the comparison for the sake of it, then. Muddying up the details with specific flavourful builds when we're talking about baselines of status chance with/without typical 4*60%s.

Again, nice projecting as that was the actual math of full stats 4x60/60 in the first line.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I gave the pre- and post-update baseline values - fire rate is a to-taste option, and multishot is, at most, further favouring shotguns - they can use VigiArm as well as Hell's, so that's irrelevant, while Hell's is strictly better than Split.

No, you spewed numbers that have nothing to do with reality.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Standard practice is to minimise the variables, you know. Otherwise we'd be arguing arbitrary build decisions, or worse, completely daft things like jamming fire rates on there at the expense of damage mods.

You do understand that post base damage mod and multi, fire rate is the BIS for non-crit non-low mag guns, right?

53 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Using that handy list previously provided, that's 4.4% per pellet for the Tigris in the old calculation, which empties in a second and reloads in 1.8, giving a reload quotient of (2/2) / (2/2+1.8) = 0.357 approximately. Two shots per second, 8 pellets per shot (we're not interested in multishot). 2*8*0.357*0.044 = 0.25 appx. procs per second.

Dear lord, im asking where the hell you asspulled the "Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet" "Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet."/why you kept making S#&$ up.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I'm not sure if you're just having issues reading

No thats you because you keep conflating that base damage somehow has any effect on if a gun is a status or crit weapon or neither forcing me to respond to your worthless ramblings

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

purely for dealing damage in status procs alone, The Tigris is numerically superior to the Boar.

It is not, tigris procs circa 12 statuses a second on full status build, board procs 39. It has better single target kill time because its a burst weapon. Even with a slash favoured setup dropping it to 10 procs, circa 3 viral and 4 slash assuming favourably for 12600~ish true damage over 7s, boar meanwhile from viral and heat in the same time due to its 39 procs a sec will get over 100k in heat damage; even if you cripple the tigris further as a main gun/only use it vs high prio targets with a blaze setup you still wont get even half the sustained performance in status).

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

This also wasn't affected at all by the update, as both shotties were altered in the exact same mathematical way, meaning neither damage ratio nor proc per second ratio between those shotguns has changed, only how they compare to other weapons has changed.

Again, please learn what burst (or well, duplex) vs full auto is, the value of mag size and thus why a burst status weapon having its status procs reduced by over 50% matters more to it than to a full auto. Actually you dont need to i just posted above its a difference of over 50 to 85%+ higher status damage separate from base damage.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I looked at both actual buff columns. In fact, I did one better and charted them myself.

No you very clearly didnt. You're ignoring the fact that no gun was actually buffed by 3x status in either version of the calculation in a fair way AND that the net trend (exergis excluded due to it having same pellet count as initial multi) is that the more pellets a shotgun had, the harder it got nerfed.

 

[Zilotz]

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Impact

Still fully useless. I would offer it to break armor(2 base armor per hit) and do some damage thru armor/shields(like 10% without DoT).

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Puncture

No use for it, reducing attack of just 1 enemy is not useful.

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Cold

Would go directly for 75%, additional procs would freeze enemy for a second each.

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Blast

Please render it on curve to see how few each proc adds. Also reducing accuracy of 1 enemy is not so useful.

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Corrosive

Just return it where it was, no need to make it even weaker. S-curve does not solve scaling problem completely, just makes it from linear to logarithmic progression.

On 2020-03-02 at 9:00 PM, [DE]Bear said:

Gas

It's better to return to original, will make more sense.

 

Also please return 100% per pellet status for all shotgun-type weapons, already we have much weaker status and also we have several times less status per pellet on weapons that are far from being great by themselves.

[TheLexiConArtist]

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Again, nice projecting as that was the actual math of full stats 4x60/60 in the first line.

No, you spewed numbers that have nothing to do with reality.

You do understand that post base damage mod and multi, fire rate is the BIS for non-crit non-low mag guns, right?

You're arguing over the inconsequential differences, the parts that, mathematically, can be cancelled out to simplify the equation. We are talking about base stats. Not your arbitrarily builds. Everything has access to the same after-market multipliers - so we don't care about the damage gain of the 60/60 mods (it increases everything equally), we don't care about multishot (again equal within category, or 20% better comparing shotguns to rifle, this makes it the conservative comparison, i.e. giving shotguns the benefit of the doubt), we don't particularly care about other damage mods. BASELINE.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Dear lord, im asking where the hell you asspulled the "Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet" "Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet."/why you kept making S#&$ up.

Do you possess eyes, or did you lose them at some point in a freak face-rolling-on-keyboard accident? Using the 340% status chance of the four 60/60s - not counting the damage differences as the multiplier is equal and therefore irrelevant - that's the base weapon damage per pellet and the sustainable procs per second through consistent firing and reloading.

The Boar procs 8.65/s sustained, its base damage is 40 per pellet plus 6 averaged through crit. I'd give you that crit-averaging equation but you'd ignore it too.

The Tigris procs 2.18/s sustained, its base damage is 190 per pellet plus 19 averaged through crit.

Basic maths, but apparently not basic enough to penetrate your skull.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No thats you because you keep conflating that base damage somehow has any effect on if a gun is a status or crit weapon or neither forcing me to respond to your worthless ramblings

A higher base damage gun does more damage per status proc than a lower base damage done. A Soma's slash procs do much less per tick than a Dread. Tigris damage procs start ~465% more potent because the pellets triggering them are ~465% more potent, therefore fewer procs will still afford equal or better damage for damage procs alone.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Again, please learn what burst (or well, duplex) vs full auto is, the value of mag size and thus why a burst status weapon having its status procs reduced by over 50% matters more to it than to a full auto. Actually you dont need to i just posted above its a difference of over 50 to 85%+ higher status damage separate from base damage

Ironically, you're the one ignoring things. I have taken all reloading time into account for the entirety of this comparison study. So.. your asspull numbers don't matter, because I'm running the hard numbers, here. Proc chance doesn't affect either any differently once you're working with the consistent, sustainable values.

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No you very clearly didnt. You're ignoring the fact that no gun was actually buffed by 3x status in either version of the calculation in a fair way AND that the net trend (exergis excluded due to it having same pellet count as initial multi) is that the more pellets a shotgun had, the harder it got nerfed.

Sorry, you failed your bluff check. Buffed values in both cases correlate exactly as I said. Minor downward if including the anomalies of Corinth and Strun, moderate upward if removing those anomalies.

Edited March 12, 2020 by TheLexiConArtist

[Andele3025]

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Sorry, you failed your bluff check. Buffed values in both cases correlate exactly as I said. Minor downward if including the anomalies of Corinth and Strun, moderate upward if removing those anomalies.

Feel free to keep lying and projecting, it wont do anything but pad the thread. Fact remains (which btw everyone can check GilgaMelchi nicely posted, so you asspulling fiction wont help) nerf was based by pellet count thus buffing/making S#&$ status shotguns barely less effective than once high status ones and leaving the Exergis uneffected.

[Drago55577]

Base damage per second isn't the only factor. The important stat is damage over time which is a function of base damage * firerate over time. Factor in reload for sustained.

From the stats you can reason that a shotgun is identical to a single shot weapon, so logically their status chance nerf by pellet count is wrong.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Drago55577

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Feel free to keep lying and projecting, it wont do anything but pad the thread. Fact remains (which btw everyone can check GilgaMelchi nicely posted, so you asspulling fiction wont help) nerf was based by pellet count thus buffing/making S#&$ status shotguns barely less effective than once high status ones and leaving the Exergis uneffected.

"Muuuum! The statistics don't support my argument! 😞" - Andele, probably.

I mean, I literally posted the chart of the exact numbers provided that you told me to check. Isn't my fault you're trying to draw a target around your inaccurate presumption.

1 minute ago, Drago55577 said:

Base damage per second isn't the only factor. The important stat is damage over time which is a function of base damage * firerate over time. Factor in reload for sustained.

Base Damage of any given bullet/pellet that procs, and proc rate over time (sustained). Which are the two values I gave as evidence. Yes?

[Drago55577]

3 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

"Muuuum! The statistics don't support my argument! 😞" - Andele, probably.

I mean, I literally posted the chart of the exact numbers provided that you told me to check. Isn't my fault you're trying to draw a target around your inaccurate presumption.

Base Damage of any given bullet/pellet that procs, and proc rate over time (sustained). Which are the two values I gave as evidence. Yes?

Honestly I can't tell at this point. I don't know if we're arguing different points or what. All I've been trying to say is that shotguns didn't deserve to be arbitrarily nerfed based on their pellet count, because it would be like nerfing a single target weapon based on its firerate. 

[Andele3025]

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Muuuum! The statistics don't support my argument! 😞

Finally the first thing you spew that isnt a lie, that you are arguing something unsupported by evidence thus making S#&$ up/lying.

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I mean, I literally posted the chart of the exact numbers provided that you told me to check.

No you didnt. You asspulled numbers not related to the guns stats.

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Isn't my fault you're trying to draw a target around your inaccurate presumption.

You're the only one who is drawing attention and its only to the fact that you're making S#&$ up, dont know what burst vs auto is and keep ignoring stats you could easily find on the WF wiki or calc out.

23 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Base Damage of any given bullet/pellet that procs, and proc rate over time (sustained). Which are the two values I gave as evidence. Yes?

Neither, you asspulled numbers out of thin air.

[TheLexiConArtist]

18 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

Honestly I can't tell at this point. I don't know if we're arguing different points or what. All I've been trying to say is that shotguns didn't deserve to be arbitrarily nerfed based on their pellet count, because it would be like nerfing a single target weapon based on its firerate. 

If you mean as a group compared to non-pellet weapons, then they did arguably deserve it as evidenced by the ability of the Boar using old-style status to double the equivalent status hose rifle net proc per second.

If you mean between themselves, however, then as you can see from my charting the Actual Buffs received (both net and per-pellet) there is no strong negative correlation between the increase received and their pellet count. The Corinth and Strun Wraith are clear and obvious outliers above and below curve respectively, which is why I showed the resulting trends both including and disincluding them.

7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Finally the first thing you spew that isnt a lie, that you are arguing something unsupported by evidence thus making S#&$ up/lying.

No you didnt. You asspulled numbers not related to the guns stats.

You're the only one who is drawing attention and its only to the fact that you're making S#&$ up, dont know what burst vs auto is and keep ignoring stats you could easily find on the WF wiki or calc out.

Neither, you asspulled numbers out of thin air.

You are so focused on arses, Sigmund Freud would have a field day with you.

You can see the charted numbers in the spreadsheet. They are precisely copied out from what was previously supplied.
I've sourced every real number I've given in evidence.
I've got ready-to-go equations to evaluate damage averages, reload quotients, burst and sustained DPS and more in that spreadsheet, making it easy to adapt and infer things like procs per second and status damage ratios.

You've responded with "No, because I say so" or completely unqualified numbers.
You're the "asspuller" here, not me.
You're a joke.

[Andele3025]

12 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You can see the charted numbers in the spreadsheet. They are precisely copied out from what was previously supplied.

Except they arent, you're just making S#&$ up trying to make it seem as if the tigris aint a status shotgun and that the nerf wasnt pellet based.

Quote

I've sourced every real number I've given in evidence.

Except you just asspulled them

Quote

I've got ready-to-go equations to evaluate damage averages, reload quotients, burst and sustained DPS and more in that spreadsheet, making it easy to adapt and infer things like procs per second and status damage ratios.

You made S#&$ up.

Quote

Lexiconartist responded with "No, because I say so" or completely unqualified numbers.
Lexiconartist is the "asspuller" here.
Lexiconartist is a joke.

Fixed that projecting for you. Now please stop lying and padding the thread as the fact will remain, the changes were a arbitrary nerf based on pellet count instead of a correct conversion by DEs own stated forumula (as posted multiple times in the thread, the clean chart being 2 pages ago).

Hell, you somehow have the made up idea that old forumla shotguns were somehow above the status curve on average/sustained despite the point of picking a shotgun for status instead of the superior rifles is to get it in a burst thus better single target kill time unless it was a auto shotty in which case they were functionally the same/just a preference of looks.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Andele3025

[Drago55577]

8 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If you mean as a group compared to non-pellet weapons, then they did arguably deserve it as evidenced by the ability of the Boar using old-style status to double the equivalent status hose rifle net proc per second.

If you mean between themselves, however, then as you can see from my charting the Actual Buffs received (both net and per-pellet) there is no strong negative correlation between the increase received and their pellet count. The Corinth and Strun Wraith are clear and obvious outliers above and below curve respectively, which is why I showed the resulting trends both including and disincluding them.

You are so focused on arses, Sigmund Freud would have a field day with you.

You can see the charted numbers in the spreadsheet. They are precisely copied out from what was previously supplied.
I've sourced every real number I've given in evidence.
I've got ready-to-go equations to evaluate damage averages, reload quotients, burst and sustained DPS and more in that spreadsheet, making it easy to adapt and infer things like procs per second and status damage ratios.

You've responded with "No, because I say so" or completely unqualified numbers.
You're the "asspuller" here, not me.
You're a joke.

I don't know if comparing specific weapons would be good in the current meta. 

But just some general information. Shotguns do have their falloff and spread as a balancing point, which can justify higher damage.

Also, further, while I don't think there's many good purely status rifles, that was solely held by shotguns due to being the only pure weapons with competitive damage and status, hybrid guns are very powerful. With the ability to leverage critical (and headshot critical) multipliers to bring their damage to a similar or greater amount than a shotgun, while having good status. Examples, Amprex, Akstilleto (maybe), Prisma Grakata. 

They lose when purely compared by base damage, but when compared by their realistic dps they are much better, if not strictly better than the 100% status shotguns were. Depends on the weapon.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

NO U!

Good to see today's children are keeping up the old internet traditions.

Here, let me include both and nicely highlight the columns directly transferred from post to spreadsheet for you:

Keep trying, space kiddo.

You're just making yourself look stupid.

[Andele3025]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Good to see today's children are keeping up the old internet traditions.

Here, let me include both and nicely highlight the columns directly transferred from post to spreadsheet for you:

Keep trying, space kiddo.

You're just making yourself look stupid.

Would you please stop projecting.
Also, let me highlight your own statements:
"Boar: 8.65 procs per second, 46 avg. base damage per pellet
Tigris: 2.18 procs per second, 209 avg. base damage per pellet. "
"Previously, that meant a base of 5.7*0.044 = 0.25 procs per second. Once modded up with your standard 60/60s it hit 100% therefore 5.7 procs per second. Multishot linearly increased this modded value but didn't change for sub-100%.
Currently, this means a base of 5.7*0.113 = 0.644 procs per second. Using the old mod spread that hit 100% before, it increases to 5.7*0.383 = 2.18 procs per second. Multishot, this time, increases both in the exact same way.  Old-style status meant base 22.6*0.044 = ~1 proc per second. Modded up to 100% status, of course, was 22.6 procs per second!
New-style status gives the base 22.6*0.113 = 2.55 procs per second. Modded up as before, we get 22.6*0.383 = 8.65 procs per second. "

(reality being that unmodded TP had base 214.5 damage per pellet accounting for crit with 0.39 procs per second while BP had 1.62 procs a sec)

Keep posting your nice fantasies, but since cant accept the fact that pre patch status build Tigris Prime did 24~28 procs a sec per build and now hits 10~12 there is no helping you. Nothing will help since you keep denying reality that DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason when converting instead of doing what was said they would do and that the best option would have been to take both divided status multiplied by 3 per pellet AND 2/3rd of total status probability a shotgun had before and just applying the higher (rounding in both cases) as its new per pellet status chance.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Would you please stop projecting.
Also, let me highlight your own statements:

(reality being that unmodded TP had base 214.5 damage per pellet accounting for crit with 0.39 procs per second while BP had 1.62 procs a sec)

Keep posting your nice fantasies, but since cant accept the fact that pre patch status build Tigris Prime did 24~28 procs a sec per build and now hits 10~12 there is no helping you. Nothing will help since you keep denying reality that DE nerfed by pellet count for no reason when converting instead of doing what was said they would do and that the best option would have been to take both divided status multiplied by 3 per pellet AND 2/3rd of total status probability a shotgun had before and just applying the higher (rounding in both cases) as its new per pellet status chance.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Or you're just dense.

Give your equations or admit you're just spouting nonsense. If my equations are wrong, please do prove it so I can be accurate in future.

Averaging for crit:
DMG + (CRITCHANCE * (DMG * (CRITDMG - 1)))
Tigris Prime: 190 + (0.1 * (190 * (2 - 1))) = 190 + (0.1 * 190) = 209 average damage per pellet, base.
Boar Prime: 40 + (0.15 * (40 * (2 - 1))) = 40 + (0.15 * 40) = 46 average damage per pellet, base.

Reload quotient:
(MAG / FIRERATE) / ((MAG / FIRERATE) + RELOADTIME)
Tigris Prime: (2 / 2) / ((2 / 2) + 1.8) = 1 / 2.8 = ~0.3571
Boar Prime: (20 / 4.67) / ((20 / 4.67) + 2.8 = ~4.282 / ~6.082 = ~0.605

Procs per second:
(FIRERATE * RELOADQUOTIENT * PELLETS) * STATUSCHANCE_PP
Tigris Prime, Old Maths, Base status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.044 =  ~0.25 pps
Tigris Prime, Old Maths, 100% status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 1 =  ~5.71 pps
Boar Prime, Old Maths, Base status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.044 = ~0.994 pps
Boar Prime, Old Maths, 100% status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 1 = ~22.59 pps
--
Tigris Prime, New Maths, Base status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.113 =  ~0.645 pps
Tigris Prime, New Maths, Base * 340% status: (2 * 0.3571 * 8 ) * 0.3842 =  ~2.195 pps
Boar Prime, New Maths, Base status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.113 = ~2.55 pps
Boar Prime, New Maths, Base * 340% status: (4.67 * 0.605 * 8 ) * 0.3842 = ~8.68 pps

 

And the charts as posted previously prove that there was little or no negative pellet-count correlation in terms of the actual buffs received to listed status.

The actual difference is solely in whether a given shotgun could or could not achieve 100% from its base status chance. Pellets are irrelevant. The Exergis was simply sitting at a higher status chance than the 8-pellet shotguns before the patch, and received roughly an identical increase to the Tigris and Boar we're using as comparisons. The number of pellets has nothing to do with it.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-03-12 at 1:27 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Or you're just dense.

Keep projecting and spouting lies, no matter how much you do it it wont change the facts.

So many numbers pulled out of nowhere (seriously, it doesnt take more than 2 seconds to open either the in game stat sheet or the wiki to see that the tigris prime having 1560 damage total across 8 pellets thus 195 base damage thus with 10% crit and 2x its 214.5 damage and that the 30% status probability converted to base 0.39 procs a sec with a 2 shot per 1.8 reload).

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2020-03-12 at 1:46 PM, Andele3025 said:

So many numbers pulled out of nowhere (seriously, it doesnt take more than 2 seconds to open either the in game stat sheet or the wiki to see that the tigris prime having 1560 damage total across 8 pellets thus 195 base damage thus with 10% crit and 2x its 214.5 damage and that the 30% status probability converted to base 0.39 procs a sec with a 2 shot per 1.8 reload).

There we go. Found the actual mistake now you've shown your work as requested, though I could swear I read that 190 clean off the wiki last time. Never trust internet. Finally the broken clock hit one of those two times a day it's accurate.

Tigris does indeed have 195 base pellet damage making it 214.5 averaged through crit.

But that minor error changes nothing in the grander scheme of the argument - the damage ratio is still 466% as previously clarified, and all of my equations are still mathematically accurate.

Regarding procs per second - you're treating the weapon as if shooting time is literally nil which is not realistic. It's fast, but not 0. Although, again, even if it is a bit of an awkward case (god knows the Exergis is too) it doesn't have anything to do with your fairy-tale premise of pellets making any difference to the outcome.

It only changes the comparison between Tig and Boar - if anything, it makes the Tiggy even more superior at dealing damage procs over time as I previously stated it was, so again, if anything I was giving the theoretical benefit of the doubt.

 

For the sake of absolute clarity: Fire rate does affect the Tigris by time taken to commence automatic reloading. This can, however,  be overridden with a manual reload, making the Tigris and its duplex trigger less numerically straightforward to discuss. But we can call our calculations the mathematical and theoretical minimums, its performance can arbitrarily improve from there based on player inputs.

You can test this yourself with Tainted Shell and Crit Deceleration, go into a mission and see how much longer post-trigger-pull you have to wait for it to reload naturally compared to a more sane build.

[Andele3025]

15 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

There we go. Found the actual mistake

Which both the game and the wiki had written out as well as all 3 main build calculators that exist on the net.

15 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Regarding procs per second - you're treating the weapon as if shooting time is literally nil which is not realistic.

No, no im not, values would be circa 8-15% higher depending on gun if i did (and the tigris  In fact in the first few posts on it i even added a bit of human error factor (such as recoil+spread for Prisma Grak even if it has little effect on sub 20m ranges). Overestimating human keydown/keyup time or assuming a person is playing heavily suboptimally however isnt relevant for comparisons. AND the whole point isnt relevant to the fact that DE nerfed shotguns by pellet count for no practical reason instead of doing the math as they said they would OR at least by using a functional approx of giving them 60~66% of their old per shot probability as the pellet chance (which for most guns would have been close enough).

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Which both the game and the wiki had written out as well as all 3 main build calculators that exist on the net.

No, no im not, values would be circa 8-15% higher depending on gun if i did (and the tigris  In fact in the first few posts on it i even added a bit of human error factor (such as recoil+spread for Prisma Grak even if it has little effect on sub 20m ranges). Overestimating human keydown/keyup time or assuming a person is playing heavily suboptimally however isnt relevant for comparisons. AND the whole point isnt relevant to the fact that DE nerfed shotguns by pellet count for no practical reason instead of doing the math as they said they would OR at least by using a functional approx of giving them 60~66% of their old per shot probability as the pellet chance (which for most guns would have been close enough).

Clerical error, or I read an actually wrong value. Insignificant detail overall.

 

If we go by the numbers of fire rate, the Tigris has 1/2.8 sustainable fire rate. I'm going to do your job and work back from your number now, so let's see what the result is.

30% status probability in old-form is 4.4% per pellet. So, 0.39 / 8 = 0.04875 sustainable procs per second. 0.04875pps / 0.044sc = ~1.108 sustained shots per second. Divided by the reload time nakedly, 1.108/1.8 = 1.9944 burst shots. Near enough 2.

It breaks the equation a little since we're working backwards, maybe there's some abstract fractional expression of theoretical-firerate and theoretical-mag that works out without causing a divide by zero error but my Algebrain isn't hitting it.
Most straightforward way of looking at it is that the reload quotient is now 'fire rate divided by reload' i.e. changing the equation to take functionally 0-time to shoot, as I thought.

 

You've still provided no evidence and explanation as to how pellet count made any difference in the status update. Literally none. Meanwhile, the chart disagrees with your imagination that higher-pellet shotguns are somehow massively worsened compared to lower-pellet shotguns, since the trend line is negligible (w/anomlies) or actually positive (wo/anomlies).

[Andele3025]

46 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

You've still provided no evidence and explanation as to how pellet count made any difference in the status update. Literally none. Meanwhile, the chart disagrees with your imagination that higher-pellet shotguns are somehow massively worsened compared to lower-pellet shotguns, since the trend line is negligible (w/anomlies) or actually positive (wo/anomlies).

DE decided to take per shot status net probability (as if measured by a regular rifle), multiply it by 3 then divide by pellet count flat instead of divide by pellet probability, this means, the more pellets a gun has above 3 (or its status per pellet times three divided by pellet count wasnt lower than 1), the more it got in practice nerfed when it comes to status chance compared to what was promised; you have over 5 pages total of people in this very thread explaining and complaining about it.

Very easy way to demo what the issue is. Get a Kohm with 4 60/60s, check its status output/spool 1, then spool 2 and spool 3 and finally fully spooled up, notice how because DE did it by pellet count, at spool 1 and even 2 shot kohm guarantees status per pellet and then proceeds to nerf itself as each part of the spool alters the base multishot instead of counting as modding/post calc multishot.

[nslay]

49 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

DE decided to take per shot status net probability (as if measured by a regular rifle), multiply it by 3 then divide by pellet count flat instead of divide by pellet probability, this means, the more pellets a gun has above 3 (or its status per pellet times three divided by pellet count wasnt lower than 1), the more it got in practice nerfed when it comes to status chance compared to what was promised; you have over 5 pages total of people in this very thread explaining and complaining about it.

Very easy way to demo what the issue is. Get a Kohm with 4 60/60s, check its status output/spool 1, then spool 2 and spool 3 and finally fully spooled up, notice how because DE did it by pellet count, at spool 1 and even 2 shot kohm guarantees status per pellet and then proceeds to nerf itself as each part of the spool alters the base multishot instead of counting as modding/post calc multishot.

Yeah, that 3x thing seems pretty arbitrary... I don't know where they got it from.

Denote S to be the old per-shot status chance, P to be the per-pellet chance and N to be the number of pellets. From the mean of the Binomial distribution perspective, DE's change implies that it wants your unmodded shotgun to proc 3*S pellets on average (i.e. since the mean N*P = 3*S). So 30% chance shotguns will proc 0.9 pellets on average when unmodded.

Since the original values of S were balanced around the old interpretation of proc/no proc, I don't think this repurposed use of S makes any obvious sense. Does it make sense to you that the unmodded shotgun proc 3*S pellets on average?

I would pick P for status shotguns (and that may not be 100%+) so that you can achieve a similar spread and quantity of status effects when considering mods and proc priorities. Because even the Tigris Prime in the old system was only going to proc half its pellets as Slash after mods (and the 4x IPS weighting... which is now removed, so double nerf on Tigris). The rest of Tigris' pellets would proc neutered/capped/unstackable statuses.

[CopperBezel]

Yeah, they should have been hand-set, with the Tigris at 15 or 20. It still wouldn't have been not a nerf to the 100% build, with its 50% of procs going to Slash, but there's a build right now that will get you 20% of pellets proccing Slash. I have to assume that they felt that doing it systematically was more "fair" but it creates an odd situation where the new system should allow more flexibility for DE to balance shotgun status appropriately, but they haven't actually opted to do so in the process.