Abilities With Select Defeat Their Own Point

[jjpdn]

When I talk about 'select' abilities not doing their job, I'm talking about abilities that allow you to choose between multiple effects. Examples would be Ivara's arrows, Vauban's orbs, and soon, Titania's soul punch thing.

My issue to them is that selecting between different variations is extremely cumbersome. You have to stare at the wheel of different icons on the bottom and keep clicking until you get the one you want. There are no series of button presses to memorize, since the number of clicks/holds of the button to get the ability effect you want is dependent on the ability effect you had selected at first.

So, how does this defeat their own point? The point of a select ability is to have greater flexibility and throwing around more abilities. In reality, the current implementation just forces people to choose their favorites ability and then only spam that one, or take the time to stare at the wheel and rotate it which disrupts the flow of battle. 

I believe that the solution to this is also simple, and already partly in the game. A select wheel. Similar to the gear wheel currently in the game, hold the ability button to open a select wheel, flick mouse either up, left, down, or right (don't need to click, unlike gear wheel), and then release the button to select it. I also suggest to add fire-on-click onto the select wheel too, allowing you to change to a new ability effect AND cast it in one smooth movement.

These two changes are both a set of quick, memorizable sequence of button presses, allowing switching to be very easy, which I believe will allow players to use select abilities to their fullest.

Edited March 4, 2020 by jjpdn
clarity

[Drasiel]

I can hear the cries of despair from the ui team but I think it's a really good idea. 

[(PSN)salovel1991]

But how would you implement this on the already clunky way this works on console? It would waste more time than looking down for a split second. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I like this.

I've suggested a similar gear wheel idea in place of the current cycle mechanics. There's definitely better ways to implement this than what we have right now.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

But how would you implement this on the already clunky way this works on console? It would waste more time than looking down for a split second. 

For consoles we could have it bring up more of a cross-menu where we press the button/hold then just select the direction with the d-pad or joystick. Press to bring up and direction to cast, or hold to bring up and release while holding the direction to cast for better confirmation.

[jjpdn]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)salovel1991 said:

But how would you implement this on the already clunky way this works on console? It would waste more time than looking down for a split second. 

I don't see an issue? Hold the ability button then flick the joystick down, and release ability button.

Edited March 4, 2020 by jjpdn

[budderchew]

I had a similar idea, but instead of a gear wheel, we simply use the scroll wheel, which as it stands now, switches between abilities 1-4, even though there is no use selected ability bound by default.

as for console, I don't play on controller, so I am by no means an expert on what does and doesn't work with controller, but maybe it could use the touch pad on the ps4 controller or the d-pad while in the ability menu, or even just the d-pad.

[Drasiel]

Just now, budderchew said:

I had a similar idea, but instead of a gear wheel, we simply use the scroll wheel, which as it stands now, switches between abilities 1-4, even though there is no use selected ability bound by default.

as for console, I don't play on controller, so I am by no means an expert on what does and doesn't work with controller, but maybe it could use the touch pad on the ps4 controller or the d-pad while in the ability menu, or even just the d-pad.

a lot of people already use the scroll wheel for other things. A very common practice is for people who like using weapons like the akbolto which are fast firerate semi auto weapons they make scroll wheel  shoot so that they don't hurt their hands. I personally use the up scroll wheel for equipping my mining tool and the down scroll for swapping between guns. Dpad on controllers are already to bound to things like waypoint, emote wheel and gear wheel. A system that doesn't require additional physical buttons would likely be better for both control schemes. It is important to note that many controller users use the power menu which already requires you to hold RB by default to use your powers so the current system for swapping through subpowers is actually worse on console than pc right now.

[jjpdn]

19 minutes ago, budderchew said:

I had a similar idea, but instead of a gear wheel, we simply use the scroll wheel, which as it stands now, switches between abilities 1-4, even though there is no use selected ability bound by default.

as for console, I don't play on controller, so I am by no means an expert on what does and doesn't work with controller, but maybe it could use the touch pad on the ps4 controller or the d-pad while in the ability menu, or even just the d-pad.

The scroll wheel does not fix the issue at hand. You'll still have to pause in combat and stare at your bottom right hand corner and scroll until you get to the right effect.

In yours, you'll have to stop fighting, stare at the wheel, and then rotate till you get to the right one, and then continue. 

In mine, you can just memorize hold 1 + swipe mouse up + release 1 and you will always get Dashwire. Much faster and convenient, and your eyes can stay looking at enemies the whole time. 

[budderchew]

10 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

a lot of people already use the scroll wheel for other things. A very common practice is for people who like using weapons like the akbolto which are fast firerate semi auto weapons they make scroll wheel  shoot so that they don't hurt their hands

that's true, I would still like the option to bind that, maybe just have the switch between options be a freely bound button, so anyone can change the binding to what they find most comfortable.

15 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Dpad on controllers are already to bound to things like waypoint, emote wheel and gear wheel

yeah, I just threw that in there. As I said, I have no experience on controller, so I put up a couple of different options to cover my bases.

[budderchew]

2 minutes ago, jjpdn said:

you'll have to stop fighting, stare at the wheel, and then rotate till you get to the right one

I don't know how much staring would actually happen, it would be more of a quick glance when you think you have the right option, or looking for a bit at the beginning to remember how the options are ordered. But I understand how even that could take to long, but then I don't see the gear wheel being much better, as it covers most of the screen.

5 minutes ago, jjpdn said:

In mine, you can just memorize hold 1 + swipe mouse up + release 1

that memorization is present in most solutions, having to remember how things are ordered doesn't seem to difficult, but I'm also not in a stressful situation, so I don't know.

either way, an easy solution could be to make use of the ability dots under the crosshair, with each being a small version of the option icon and have each turn blue when selected (or each option is numbered, if the small icons seems like to much work). it wouldn't take up space, or take your eyes from the action, and is already mostly ingame.

[jjpdn]

17 hours ago, budderchew said:

I don't know how much staring would actually happen, it would be more of a quick glance when you think you have the right option, or looking for a bit at the beginning to remember how the options are ordered. But I understand how even that could take to long, but then I don't see the gear wheel being much better, as it covers most of the screen.

that memorization is present in most solutions, having to remember how things are ordered doesn't seem to difficult, but I'm also not in a stressful situation, so I don't know.

either way, an easy solution could be to make use of the ability dots under the crosshair, with each being a small version of the option icon and have each turn blue when selected (or each option is numbered, if the small icons seems like to much work). it wouldn't take up space, or take your eyes from the action, and is already mostly ingame.

The issue is that the order changes depending on your currently equipped ability type. 

Your solution still requires a divide of focus. 

[Seeryx]

That seems like a very nice solution.

 

В 05.03.2020 в 02:53, budderchew сказал:

I had a similar idea, but instead of a gear wheel, we simply use the scroll wheel, which as it stands now, switches between abilities 1-4, even though there is no use selected ability bound by default.

Nah, scroll wheel is way too imprecise. Player will still have to look at the icons to see if the correct thing got selected. Mouse flick is much harder to mess up and can be exceptionally fast.

23 часа назад, budderchew сказал:

either way, an easy solution could be to make use of the ability dots under the crosshair, with each being a small version of the option icon and have each turn blue when selected (or each option is numbered, if the small icons seems like to much work). it wouldn't take up space, or take your eyes from the action, and is already mostly ingame.

Hugely dependent on player. I played for years without using those dots, so I'm effectively blind to them. I know they're here, right around the crosshair, but my mind is perfectly adapted to never notice them.

[vomder]

At the very least I'd like a way to set the starting or default power on these rotating/select powers.

[budderchew]

8 minutes ago, Seeryx said:

Nah, scroll wheel is way too imprecise.

I guess it depends on the person or mouse, I don't see it being too imprecise personally, but others might find that frustrating. I also suggested in a different reply to allow the switch options thing be freely bound to anything a player might want.

12 minutes ago, Seeryx said:

I played for years without using those dots, so I'm effectively blind to them

Same here, though I wouldn't go as far as blind to them, rarely noticing them until I accidentally move the scroll wheel and the blue dot moves, so I am trying to put some use into them through the selection cycle.

[Drasiel]

16 hours ago, budderchew said:

I guess it depends on the person or mouse, I don't see it being too imprecise personally, but others might find that frustrating. I also suggested in a different reply to allow the switch options thing be freely bound to anything a player might want.

Same here, though I wouldn't go as far as blind to them, rarely noticing them until I accidentally move the scroll wheel and the blue dot moves, so I am trying to put some use into them through the selection cycle.

A lot of players hate those dots with a surprising yet firey passion. That's why there is an option to disable to them. A lot people don't have those dots because of that. 

[budderchew]

6 hours ago, Drasiel said:

A lot of players hate those dots with a surprising yet firey passion

I didn't know that, that is really surprising, I don't really see why, they cover maybe 10 pixels total.

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

On 2020-03-04 at 11:48 AM, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I like this.

I've suggested a similar gear wheel idea in place of the current cycle mechanics. There's definitely better ways to implement this than what we have right now.

For consoles we could have it bring up more of a cross-menu where we press the button/hold then just select the direction with the d-pad or joystick. Press to bring up and direction to cast, or hold to bring up and release while holding the direction to cast for better confirmation.

I agree with this, and have it remember which one you casted last time if it's one you prefer. Khora's healing is a bit slow because of the current system, even if they made a secondary bar that appears over the main bar when the power is selected that lets you pick which to use instead of having to scroll through them all as it is right now. 

[NinjaZeku]

23 hours ago, vomder said:

At the very least I'd like a way to set the starting or default power on these rotating/select powers.

Big yes to that. (Same for weapons that can cycle through firing modes, BTW.)

But FWIW, at least for Booben, I had an idea for how to make his ability usage a bit less clunky:

 

[Drasiel]

44 minutes ago, budderchew said:

I didn't know that, that is really surprising, I don't really see why, they cover maybe 10 pixels total.

it was kind of fascinating to watch peoples reactions just prior to the ability to disable them. They were known as the 4 most hated dots in the entire game.

[Andele3025]

Thus far no rotation/selectable multi ability needs to be swapped around quickly mid combat for maximum effectiveness, they have only 1 mid combat crucial skill (sleep, shrapnel, thorns, hp flower, etc) have enough duration that setup and "swap while walk" functional so, IMO, not a issue.

Not that adding a option to keybind em differently would be bad, in fact the more proper keybind tweaks a game can have, the better.

[budderchew]

14 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Thus far no rotation/selectable multi ability needs to be swapped around quickly mid combat for maximum effectiveness

I would have to disagree, with the exception of dashwire, Ivara's quiver would greatly benefit from being able to quickly swap. And with Titania, even though the other buffs aren't as good, you still want to easily switch between them to keep them up effectively. Vauban and Wisp, while not suffering the most from not switching easily, could still benefit from this.

[EinheriarJudith]

no thanks. ability wheels should not exist. this is nothing more than busy work. DE shouldnt be trying to push in more abilities than the frame should actually have.

[Andele3025]

10 hours ago, budderchew said:

I would have to disagree, with the exception of dashwire, Ivara's quiver would greatly benefit from being able to quickly swap. And with Titania, even though the other buffs aren't as good, you still want to easily switch between them to keep them up effectively. Vauban and Wisp, while not suffering the most from not switching easily, could still benefit from this.

Except, if you read again, the point wasnt if there could be some benefit, of swapping in 0.4s+ instead of 1.5s, just that for maximum effectiveness in combat each frame only has 1 thing. Sleep does everything the rest of the quiver can in combat (the only relevant time where the current setup might be a flaw) by sleeping enemies/effectively removing the enemy status in the room. Titanias tribute was given use not with the buffs, but with generation of razorflies but even so then also buffed to be given DR making a slower build on her massively tanky. Overdrive lasts long enough that you only need the turret orb and Wisp quite literally never runs out of the 3 because it are infinite duration objects but for safety vs nulls, hp is the crucial one to plop down.

[Thrymm]

While gamepad users are invariably stuck with wheels or menus of some kind, I rather wish we'd be allowed to use the keyboard with all its strengths.

Stuff like this would be pretty easy to bind up on a keyboard--simply let us use function keys 1-4 to select the abilities(or however many functions a particular frame has).

On 2020-03-06 at 7:40 PM, Andele3025 said:

Thus far no rotation/selectable multi ability needs to be swapped around quickly mid combat for maximum effectiveness, they have only 1 mid combat crucial skill (sleep, shrapnel, thorns, hp flower, etc) have enough duration that setup and "swap while walk" functional so, IMO, not a issue.

Not that adding a option to keybind em differently would be bad, in fact the more proper keybind tweaks a game can have, the better.

I do disagree with this, however---I think the nature of the system we have is why we only have one useful ability.  Let's take Vauban, for example:

Odds are, we all use Flechette Orb with him.  It's good stuff, and nothing else in the set compares, so if you're gonna be stuck on one item, this is the one to be on.  It's so good that it's downright punitive to accidentally press the two button too fast and get switched off of it inadvertently(another great reason to get rid of our current system, that sort of thing shouldn't be in the cards).

If we could rapidly toggle, however, Overdriver uptime would invariably go up quite a bit, though this probably isn't the best example, since it is technically possible to clunk our way around what we've got and use it now.

Tether Coils, on the other hand, don't get nearly enough credit.  These little beauties can be used to make a nice lockdown or area of denial, and they have great synergy with the Flechette Orb--great, except for the part where we currently have to hammer the "2" key three times, then hold it down in order to capitalize on that synergy.

The Vector pad is junk.  Junk just like the bounce pad was, maybe even moreso.  It'll never be worthwhile to swap to this thing instead of anything else your minelayer could ever be set to.  UNLESS!....We could reach it at a moments notice.  If it was accessible, we could use it for quick escapes, launching bad guys off ledges, etc.  Creative uses would still be pretty niche, but being stuck to the flechette the way we are merely guarantees that the only vector pad we ever see is the one we throw accidentally because we didn't hold our flechette button long enough(it can't be understated how much it sucks when this happens).

So while I agree that proper keybinds are a great idea, I disagree with the notion that we don't need them because the other abilities aren't useful---rather, I think they aren't useful because we don't have the keybinds.

[Xyngrr]

The order abilities are in doesn't change - I know that if I'm Vauban and his 2 is on Tether, one click gets me Flechettes. 3 more gets me back to Tethers. A quick glance is all it takes to know where I am, and from there it's muscle memory and knowledge of the set order they are arranged in regardless of what the graphics spin and whizz around.

That said, I see rosette menus for this being a decent toggleable option for those that like them. I personally wouldn't use them, never really been a fan of them.

Additionally, I'd like to see a very old method of multiple menus being accessible being implemented - press multi-power button, it remaps your 1-4 to the sub options for two seconds or so. Two button presses gets you any of the available options, and cancels automatically if you don't press the second key. The hold to cast stuff I personally find really cumbersome, moreso when there's animation lock all over the place.