My thoughts into the so-called Endgame Content and the playerbase ideal of the perfect way of implement it.

[Alseiker]

I usually go through this place once in a while to see some rant posts and stuffs like that (Since i got a lot of free time for now). I usually get into this topics about "What happened to the Endgame Content" that comes often based in a feature that the mayority of the playerbase defines as endgame being nerfed to the ground to appear to the masses (railjack seems like the recent example). 

Usually my curiosity about what do the people that get to wrote it thought about this question drives me into read them, and i just get into the same conclusion as i go through every post about this topic. The same take about "why does the devs just cripple our enemies from being hordes of bullets sponges with a IA capable of hit my warframe with 100% accuracy, into a merely group of cannon fodder that can be deleted soo easy by my 7 forma Kuva bramma with a Multishot+CritChance Riven", or the usual disappoitment to see how the enemies that used to take 3 mags from a Baza Prime before, now die with half mag.

The usual questions that comes to my mind when i read those post is: Why is considered this as lowering the dificulting? Why are the bullet sponges considered as dificult? are really those mechanics of shooting something from a long time to kill it or be deleted by it in almost half of a second something dificult or no just simply a awful approach to make the player invested into playing the math game as entertainment until the numbers hit the limit that are suppose to hit and you can wistand 3 seconds more to spam spoiler mode. I don't really see the dificulty in this way of playing.

I know that the enemy scaling is important as way to limit our damage input as the game progress, to take you into the way of getting the best build to go thought the startchart, to farm efficiently all the pieces or cosmetics that you want, but there is something that i always see that this gameplay lack when it comes into that point, i often think that is the lack of interactions and mini challenges that the flow of the game doesn't have like a some different approach of nullifiers (i freanky hate those), maybe the energy leechers but as nullifers, maybe some enemies that should be killed with expecfic arsenal choice like those in destiny, by the way, that is really my take on the problem, and can't be set as solution to this problem, probably is a awful idea, but hey. that is the meaning of free thought i guess.

I do really like to play at the way is now and i the same time i don't like it neither (Maybe because as players we usually go through the "what if" phase of ideas that would make this game our ideal). I usually just log into some arbitrations to farm, or get a resource booster to the kuva to roll indefinitely my rivens. 

There it goes my first post that makes more than 1 paragraphs. Free time is a good way of unleash your inner writter, by the way. I don't really think i would write something like this ever and my grammar is really awful so, that's all.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Neoriek

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

Just my two cents:

1. Endgame will never exist because the Tenno’s favorite thing is to find the easiest method of getting something done for the grind and then trivializing it to kingdom come. It’s been done with ESO, it’s been done with Eidolons, etc.

2. When was it ever stated that Railjack was going to be an endgame? Did I miss something?

[akrid45]

Pretty sure people are talking about the fighters and not the ground troops and the fighters weren't even close to bulletsponges but because it didn't die in 1 second like everything else in the game, the community complained and DE nerfed them to the ground 

Now railjack is pretty much easier than pretty much everything else in the game. Atleast in the rest of the game u still have a chance of dying even with really good build but in railjack u literally have to stand still for the enemies to kill you and even when your health goes to 0 u still have 60 seconds to save your ship from dying 

I don't mind the ground troops changes tho since they were pretty much bulletsponges 

Edited May 6, 2020 by akrid45

[MysticDragonMage]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

2. When was it ever stated that Railjack was going to be an endgame? Did I miss something?

you've missed nothing. there are people who see every new content update as potential endgame content.

now for my two cents:

1. the challenge of warframe is getting to the point where you are now. things have not become easier. you've just progressed.

2. the endgame is modifying your own personal playstyle to compete with meta builds, helping other players build clans, or creating a clan of your very own.

imagine all of resources every vet complaining about end game has stockpiled; most never thinking once that maybe they should be a little more generous to other clans or retire by creating their very own.

[Galuf]

The game needs way more content like Eidolons. Eidolons were amazing and are still run by some and missunderstood by a ton of players. There should be content like that every 6 monthes/ 1 year. It is pretty hard conceptualising then releasing content like that but there should be way more. End game content in Warframe should be:

- Convoluted

- Extremly demanding in terms of gearing

- Focused on giving increased rewards based on speed and efficiency

End game should be raining platinum for the 1-10% of the playerbase that is good at it, still farmable for 10-20% of the players then feel impossible for 50-90% of the players. That is how it is done in good pve games. As warframe is pretty casual but very market/trading driven I'd say 5% can farm it, 10% can do things with it, 20% is working directly or indirectly toward beeing viable in end game and a good 55% are clueless anyway $$.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Galuf

[TastyTaro]

I think "End game content" should not be hard, it should be fun. Well now, the definition of "fun" can be different across player base. As example i modded and equipped my Mag to solo stand Void survival for two hours... aaaand ah? Is it fun? No. It's just a process that gets boring and old pretty quick. One of the reasons why i prefer not to play this game for more than 2 hours a day is the simple fact that i have nothing to do, except for artificial goals i set for myself. Like current one is to have each RJ component and max them out to the limit.

If we take Nightwave as example, that marathon was good enough to keep me log in and play the game, because that Saturn Six armor set is actually really good. It looks like actual armor instead of these fetishists based armor sets or armored-bra-like armor pieces we have in the game right now in general.

I just do not consider sitting for defense for 100 waves or sitting on surival for several hours as some kind of challenge. It's not.

End game content should be fun and challenging only to a certain point. End game content should be good enough so i log in the game because i want to, not because it is some kind of chore i "had" to do.

[TastyTaro]

10 минут назад, Galuf сказал:

The game needs way more content like Eidolons.

yes, even with all the flaws i still consider it as a best part of the game currently.

[Alseiker]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

1. Endgame will never exist because the Tenno’s favorite thing is to find the easiest method of getting something done for the grind and then trivializing it to kingdom come. It’s been done with ESO, it’s been done with Eidolons, etc.

Yeah, can't argue again that.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

2. When was it ever stated that Railjack was going to be an endgame? Did I miss something?

By the devs? i haven't seen any stream where they called it "endgame".

By some players? just scroll through General Discussion and you will catch on.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Neoriek

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

13 minutes ago, Galuf said:

The game needs way more content like Eidolons. Eidolons were amazing and are still run by some and missunderstood by a ton of players. There should be content like that every 6 monthes/ 1 year. It is pretty hard conceptualising then releasing content like that but there should be way more. End game content in Warframe should be:

- Convoluted

- Extremly demanding in terms of gearing

- Focused on giving increased rewards based on speed and efficiency

End game should be raining platinum for the 1-10% of the playerbase that is good at it, still farmable for 10-20% of the players then feel impossible for 50-90% of the players. That is how it is done in good pve games. As warframe is pretty casual but very market/trading driven I'd say 5% can farm it, 10% can do things with it, 20% is working directly or indirectly toward beeing viable in end game and a good 55% are clueless anyway $$.

Eidelons are probably the best 'boss monster' DE has ever come up with; No BS instant kills, no invulnerability phases, no sentient shields... With scarlet spear and the implementation of synchronious missions, it actually shows what RAIDS could be in the future; space and ground fights involving a series of objectives where both sides have to work together to defeat a common foe. Make it drop sortie rewards and remove boosters/anasas from the drop table while adding radiant relics.

As an example... Grineer raid; Kuva capital ship;
the space team must - using the railjack - cripple the kuva capital ships engines and stop automated repair crews from fixing them. While thats happening a ground team is performing a sabotage+spy mission which will disable the kuva capital ships shield, allowing railjack team to enter the ship.  
Once inside the ship railjack team must then capture a generic kuva lich and perform a decode operation to initiate a self-destruct, splitting the ship in half and releasing a mass of kuva driven by a mad lich - the final boss - who constantly releases enemies for the railjack team to defend against, and can be damaged by attacking his propulsion. 
After the self destruct the ground team must exterminate remaining enemies then guide and protect steel meridian prisoner from between one of four points, which will freeze the mad kuva lich for a short time, repeating until the mad kuva lich is destroyed. 


 

[vanaukas]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)ARC_Paroe said:

Eidelons are probably the best 'boss monster' DE has ever come up with; No BS instant kills, no invulnerability phases, no sentient shields... 

Wait... What? I like Eidolons, but Hydro can instakill you, they have invulnerability phases (but short) and their main form of defense is literally sentient shield.

58 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

Pretty sure people are talking about the fighters and not the ground troops and the fighters weren't even close to bulletsponges but because it didn't die in 1 second like everything else in the game, the community complained and DE nerfed them to the ground 

Now railjack is pretty much easier than pretty much everything else in the game. Atleast in the rest of the game u still have a chance of dying even with really good build but in railjack u literally have to stand still for the enemies to kill you and even when your health goes to 0 u still have 60 seconds to save your ship from dying 

I don't mind the ground troops changes tho since they were pretty much bulletsponges 

And? Doing a mission under 10 mins o  veil proxima instead 30 mins - 40 mins is awesome. They were bullet sponges, they remain with the exact same fun mechanics but without shooting at them for long time.

[Vit0Corleone]

1 hour ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

2. When was it ever stated that Railjack was going to be an endgame? Did I miss something?

It wasn't stated. And it's not "endgame".

In fact, it's more like "startgame", since effectively you're playing a new game inside the game, and starting from scratch at it.

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

2 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

Wait... What? I like Eidolons, but Hydro can instakill you, they have invulnerability phases (but short) and their main form of defense is literally sentient shield.

By sentient shields i mean they dont require resistances to be stripped from them every clip or so... 
Hydrolist mechanics are decently dodgable - all of the eidelons mechanics can generally be dealt with by effective use of spoiler mode and it is satisfying to do so; The same cant be said for other bosses, where theres barely an opportunity to spoiler out.  
Their invulnerability phases are also more like soft - resets in the fight, not "I cant be damaged until you do this one incredibly specific thing to a small part of my model haha", not counting their overshield (which is much more like a forced weapon swap than it is an invulnerability phase).

[Felsagger]

This is a GAAS game. GAAS games can't have 'end game'. If the game has a top it stops. War Frame is just a product that doesn't cope with such idea. 

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, MysticDragonMage said:

1. the challenge of warframe is getting to the point where you are now. things have not become easier. you've just progressed.

we legitimately just witnessed a mass culling of difficulty in railjack not remotely bound to someone's progresse, earlier this year we witnessed as well a mass increase in player safety with armor buffs and shield gating, aslo not tied to ones progress, we witnessed enemy accuracy get reduced and armor scaling get butchered, also not tied to our progress, and effectively the removal of a counter balance mechanic for explosive weapons, not a one of these changes that made the game easier were a result of individual progression, they were blanket system changes that made the game inherently easier as a whole. and that is without delving into power creep as well which is a much more long standing issue in the game that is also not directly tied to self progression but impacts gameplay/difficulty/engagement just as well. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Cubewano

[Vit0Corleone]

The term "end game" is often misleading, especially on games like this where "end game" would always be a moving target.

I'd suggest going with "aspirational content" instead, which is a term I think best suited for Warframe.

This video below does a fairly good job at describing it, but a quick definition would be "something you aspire at being able to do".

Games within the same genre that have aspirational content ( for example dungeons and raids) , would be Destiny ( from the ones I'm familiar with, which isn't a big list 😛 ) 

Needless to say, Warframe has a hard time at adding content like this, simply because the player base is largely casual. I don't mean casual as a pejorative term, but as in players that aren't willing or able to put to much effort into something, and therefore will complain when things are too "hard". This is further amplified if said aspirational content contains rewards that are specific to that content and cannot be obtained outside of it.

 

[Galuf]

il y a 31 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

This is a GAAS game. GAAS games can't have 'end game'. If the game has a top it stops. War Frame is just a product that doesn't cope with such idea. 

Warframe is definitely a game wich does not fits in any of this boxes. The devs do what they want and they don't even follow framework trends for their product... Go back to your pdfs :).

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Galuf said:

End game content in Warframe should be:

- Convoluted

- Extremly demanding in terms of gearing

- Focused on giving increased rewards based on speed and efficiency

Absolutely not, nothing in ANY game should be convoluted.

Convoluted is not something anyone in any level of game design should purposely attempt for.

Complex, maybe, but complex and convoluted are NOT the same thing.

Gear checks are also insanely hit or miss, mainly because Warframe isn't static like most other games which use gear as a unit of measurement of if somebody is ready for anything. Gear checks only work for games where progression is purely vertical, Warframe's gearing is much closer to horizontal, where most things are different flavors on slightly different levels with a few outliers like the Kuva Bramma or the old Catchmoon showing up.

I can agree with rewarding efficiency and speed to some extent, but that shouldn't be the only factor that is a reward measurement, success and failure should be the foundation long before speed and efficiency.

Case in point, Eidolons are often considered good design, but they aren't convoluted at all, they have a simple structure that anyone can learn with down shields break weak spots, and in terms of Gear for clearing them you just need a good Rad/Crit weapon like a Rubico(prime), the only reason that they reward speed and efficency is because of the limited time window they are available. 

Profit-taker is massively disliked (from what I've seen around here) and seldom played despite filling 2 of your 3 points, often for the first two points, it is insanely convoluted with the whole "only one damage type" shielding deciding most of the pace of the fight and the use of Archguns while its gear check is confusing at best because it has no clear weakness or learning curve.

Difficulty should stem more from execution in Warframe rather than things like "are you using X meta setup" or having to go through through multiple confusing steps that don't accomplish anything more for the fight, but in order to do that the design would need to stop things that the player can do to turn the game off completely.

...I realize after typing this it is a lot of word vomit, so to sum it up: Convoluted is not a good design choice because it often creates confusion and irritation, and that convoluted nature should not be in a check made before you even start the mission in your Arsenal.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

3 hours ago, Galuf said:

The game needs way more content like Eidolons. Eidolons were amazing and are still run by some and missunderstood by a ton of players. There should be content like that every 6 monthes/ 1 year. It is pretty hard conceptualising then releasing content like that but there should be way more. End game content in Warframe should be:

- Convoluted

- Extremly demanding in terms of gearing

- Focused on giving increased rewards based on speed and efficiency

End game should be raining platinum for the 1-10% of the playerbase that is good at it, still farmable for 10-20% of the players then feel impossible for 50-90% of the players. That is how it is done in good pve games. As warframe is pretty casual but very market/trading driven I'd say 5% can farm it, 10% can do things with it, 20% is working directly or indirectly toward beeing viable in end game and a good 55% are clueless anyway $$.

Geezus thank you finally.

You're like the 3rd person I've seen on the forums since Aug 2019 that actually had a good opinion lol.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Absolutely not, nothing in ANY game should be convoluted.

Convoluted is not something anyone in any level of game design should purposely attempt for.

Complex, maybe, but complex and convoluted are NOT the same thing.

Gear checks are also insanely hit or miss, mainly because Warframe isn't static like most other games which use gear as a unit of measurement of if somebody is ready for anything. Gear checks only work for games where progression is purely vertical, Warframe's gearing is much closer to horizontal, where most things are different flavors on slightly different levels with a few outliers like the Kuva Bramma or the old Catchmoon showing up.

I can agree with rewarding efficiency and speed to some extent, but that shouldn't be the only factor that is a reward measurement, success and failure should be the foundation long before speed and efficiency.

Case in point, Eidolons are often considered good design, but they aren't convoluted at all, they have a simple structure that anyone can learn with down shields break weak spots, and in terms of Gear for clearing them you just need a good Rad/Crit weapon like a Rubico(prime), the only reason that they reward speed and efficency is because of the limited time window they are available. 

Profit-taker is massively disliked (from what I've seen around here) and seldom played despite filling 2 of your 3 points, often for the first two points, it is insanely convoluted with the whole "only one damage type" shielding deciding most of the pace of the fight and the use of Archguns while its gear check is confusing at best because it has no clear weakness or learning curve.

Difficulty should stem more from execution in Warframe rather than things like "are you using X meta setup" or having to go through through multiple confusing steps that don't accomplish anything more for the fight, but in order to do that the design would need to stop things that the player can do to turn the game off completely.

...I realize after typing this it is a lot of word vomit, so to sum it up: Convoluted is not a good design choice because it often creates confusion and irritation, and that convoluted nature should not be in a check made before you even start the mission in your Arsenal.

You're a part of the most convoluted cosmos currently. Everything is quite convoluted.....

And guess what? People are amazing at learning convoluted things and making them look easy.

It's almost like....we're a highly advanced species that is capable of learning a whole host of concepts.

But sure, we should take care to be extra sensitive to people that cant shoot an amp at a giant, and then shoots its kneecap. 

 

and a quick edit: for profit taker. You can change the damage type with your amp.

dont have magnetic on any of your 3 weapons? Shoot your amp and voila: cold or gas etc.

Edited May 6, 2020 by (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu

[Aldain]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Everything is quite convoluted.....

So swinging a hammer into a nail is convoluted?

No, swinging a hammer into a nail is simple, making a Rube Goldberg machine that swings a hammer into a nail is convoluted.

If you don't NEED anything convoluted then it exists solely for show, everything doesn't need to play like a damn flight sim of mechanics and learning curves.

The opposite extreme isn't good either, but promoting convoluted as the opposite of simple and saying "Convoluted and Clunky is better than simple because simple is bad" is no better than those who demand nerfs to everything out of laziness.

You can have complex designs without being convoluted, just like you can have simple things without being brain-dead, and I refuse to accept this entire horseshoe of "Casual v Hardcore" argumentation.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Aldain

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

3 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Just my two cents:

1. Endgame will never exist because the Tenno’s favorite thing is to find the easiest method of getting something done for the grind and then trivializing it to kingdom come. It’s been done with ESO, it’s been done with Eidolons, etc.

2. When was it ever stated that Railjack was going to be an endgame? Did I miss something?

Steve did say once on stream or on Twitter, they had hoped to use RJ as a way to bring balance back into the combat of the game bc too many things had gotten out of control. 

This and a few other things, led to some ppl assuming RJ was going to be the new endgame. Coupled with Reb talking about railjack raids, it got a lot of ppl hyped up for stuff that was all just general talk.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

So swinging a hammer into a nail is convoluted?

No, swinging a hammer into a nail is simple, making a Rube Goldberg machine that swings a hammer into a nail is convoluted.

If you don't NEED anything convoluted then it exists solely for show, everything doesn't need to play like a damn flight sim of mechanics and learning curves.

The opposite extreme isn't good either, but promoting convoluted as the opposite of simple and saying "Convoluted and Clunky is better than simple because simple is bad".

You can have complex designs without being convoluted, just like you can have simple things without being brain-dead, and I refuse to accept this entire horseshoe of "Casual v Hardcore" argumentation.

Oh yea I agree. I just mean provide the option and have it there: Eidolons are tucked in the corner and have to be sought out by the people desiring that challenge.

They dont get in anyone's way and can be ignored by someone that doesnt wanna deal with it, because they can just farm plat playing the game elsewhere, then just go buy what they need from it.

I think we just need more convoluted fights in an area where people like us can go and handle all that insane convolutedness. 

Edit:

So I dont think any convoluted boss fights should be put in the mainstream story or be a prerequisite for something everyone has to do. 

Just place it off to the side somewhere.

Edited May 6, 2020 by (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

They dont get in anyone's way and can be ignored by someone that doesnt wanna deal with it, because they can just farm plat playing the game elsewhere, then just go buy what they need from it.

I think we just need more convoluted fights in an area where people like us can go and handle all that insane convolutedness.

This I can agree with, but I also think that there shouldn't be a sole definition of "endgame" in Warframe if only because it is far too diverse, only having convoluted gear checks as qualifiers for endgame leads to problems of meta stagnation, somewhat similar to how when Zaws were basically the only Melee weapons worth using before Melee 3.0.

I do hope they can do something for those looking for things.

[akrid45]

2 hours ago, xHeretic said:

Wait... What? I like Eidolons, but Hydro can instakill you, they have invulnerability phases (but short) and their main form of defense is literally sentient shield.

And? Doing a mission under 10 mins o  veil proxima instead 30 mins - 40 mins is awesome. They were bullet sponges, they remain with the exact same fun mechanics but without shooting at them for long time.

don't think u know what i bullet sponge is if u think something that takes around 2-3 seconds to kill is a bullet sponge 

[(PSN)GbHaseo]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Oh yea I agree. I just mean provide the option and have it there: Eidolons are tucked in the corner and have to be sought out by the people desiring that challenge.

They dont get in anyone's way and can be ignored by someone that doesnt wanna deal with it, because they can just farm plat playing the game elsewhere, then just go buy what they need from it.

I think we just need more convoluted fights in an area where people like us can go and handle all that insane convolutedness. 

Edit:

So I dont think any convoluted boss fights should be put in the mainstream story or be a prerequisite for something everyone has to do. 

Just place it off to the side somewhere.

Tbh, I love the more convoluted stuff. It's why I and many others enjoy raids in Destiny or MMOs like WoW, ESO and FF14. I mean story is even tied into them. 

The coolest thing in Destiny is when Bungie ties story telling into the raids. When ppl beat The Last Wish, it changed the Dreaming City. Taken King, if you wanted to really beat Oryx, do the raid. It pushes the community to come together, they watch the big names on stream, dig through lore. Getting the cool gear that shows ppl you worked hard and learned, and inspires them to as well.