Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

If you know what I mean.

...I really wish I didn't.

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Waw, that game idea really sucked, lmao. 

I don't think so. More so when placed in the context of 2005 when DE was pushing to make it. You have to compare it to the gaming landscape of 2005, and Metal Gear in space was something most people would have wanted back then.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga

[ranks21]

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Really? Because the game as it stands now is nothing like the one shown here. The Warframe shown in the trailer has:

People actually aiming their shots, and even firing their guns.

nit picking a highlight to say something huh?? let me break it down to baby form for ya.

1: you can use your gun precisely (aiming for headshots/targets

2: you can use your power/abilities to cc or kill single  (Ash) or one button (Excalibur)

3:you can use stealth doing the objective (loki)

4:you can co-op play (mag +volt) to lock down the enemies

5: you can stop a boss with your frame (frost freeze) and melee kill (excaliber slash dash)

objective done but "TOTALLY" controlling the battlefield.

what did I miss?

Edited May 20, 2020 by ranks21

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

nit picking

Pointing out that the gameplay represented in the trailer and the actual gameplay in the game today are completely at odds with one another is not nitpicking, I was neither fussy nor pedantic. I was sincerely stating, for the sake of correction, that you are wrong.

12 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

1: you can use your gun precisely (aiming for headshots/targets

2: you can use your power/abilities to cc or kill single  (Ash) or one button (Excalibur)

3:you can use stealth doing the objective (loki)

4:you can co-op play (mag +volt) to lock down the enemies

5: you can stop a boss with your frame (frost freeze) and melee kill (excaliber slash dash)

Saying that the gameplay is similar because you can hypothetically do those things still is however nitpicking. 

Either you're living in some sort of fairy land, or you haven't played the game in a very long time. What you just listed above, those things that can happen, don't actually happen.

12 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

what did I miss?

Besides the past 3 years or so of Warframe? Not sure.

You're the one that held the trailer up and said "this is what I signed up for".

Congratulations, you signed up for something that doesn't exist anymore.

Edited May 20, 2020 by DeMonkey

[Rakosta_Kai]

20 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Maybe the game is not that interesting to you. Who knows. 

Yes. That is correct... 

The game is not so interesting that my issues with it give me license to actively attack and insult other players who's opinions about the game I don't agree with.

That's coming from a Founder who plugs money into this game in any month I sit down to play it...Whether I need the plat or not.

That said, when you lobby for changes to everyone's gameplay experience to suit your own self interest... Dissenting opinions should be expected.

23 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

When a game pushes people to throw hands in a forum then you question if such game is entertaining in the first place. Even the art of conversation starts to be questioned. Yes, this is why many players leaves the game because they outgrew it. Shall we do something about it other than fill a while box with black letters? DE always carries that burden. They don't owe us anything. We don't have a horse running in the race either. 

The game isn't pushing you to abuse others in a forum...You are making that choice for yourself.

People, inherently, leave things they outgrow...

Likewise, some people also prefer to settle for comfortable existences instead...

There are a ton of games that exist in what amounts to maintenance mode, still making money, with gameplay that has all but stopped evolving.

It's also why some games get run on private servers instead after the actual game got closed down too.

32 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Pablito may come with good ideas but in the end we get the cheapest solution that overextend the problem instead of addressing the problem once and for all with one philosophy of design. At least something, otherwise the game resumes to a cute MEME generator GUI for portable phones. I think this game is in the brink of going there. 

You may as well uninstall the game then because the overriding logic for this game's progression and difficulty is already on display and hasn't distinctly wavered in many years.

This game is tough on the new player under MR3 and gets gradually easier from that point...That's not news.

If that's a cute meme generator for you then the question to ask would be, "Why are you playing cute meme generators when you supposedly don't like them?"

[Felsagger]

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think so. More so when placed in the context of 2005 when DE was pushing to make it. You have to compare it to the gaming landscape of 2005, and Metal Gear in space was something most people would have wanted back then.

https://ibb.co/L0r13yt

I don't want to use the words to make fun of that pictures because, well, we have another 'landscape'.....^^ If you know what I mean...

 

 

I'm glad that such game never made it. At least it turned into the GUI we have now, an enjoyable experience. We have the forum game of collecting likes. DE was clever enough to make that the end game anyway. 

Being snarky and sarcastic became a thing. Almost in every game we see the same tone and sarcastic decease. Looks like it has to do with the age we are trapped. This is the "LIKE" generation. 

Leave Cyberpunk 77 with CDPR, TLoU 2 with Naughty Dog and Ghosts of Tsushima with Sucker Punch. Good games are there for us to have but DE never was meant for that road. I think they tried tho. Besides War Frame went profitable making an experimental project out of the bones of other games. 

It was a nice Frankenstein that went berserk for few years. After that the project went places. DE got the money out of it. So I got few hours of fun out of it too. ^^

 

 

[Rann0n]

4 hours ago, LSG501 said:

and you've also forgotten about how things work when there is a 'reverse action'.... they basically neutralise it, just look at low energy modifiers.  And considering they literally gave us they gave us the mod that extends things, I very much doubt they'd change things so it has increased drain...

Wow. I didn't imagine something so obvious would be so hard for someone to understand. DE wants you to kill stuff inside the rift instead of keeping it frozen. Currently you are incentivized to do it with augment. If the proposed change is implemented, you will be incentivized to do it even without augment. Come on, it's not rocket science.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Actually it isn't that bad of an idea and it's one I have trotted out myself numerous times over the years.

The cascade you mention would do a few things:

• Would section off players/ frame choices who exhibit a playstyle that you are uncomfortable playing around.
• Eventually encourages players to either adopt a more cooperative playstyle or it pairs them with like minded players who undertake co-ops the same way they do.
• It would potentially increase some players matchmaking times for public missions . 

With how matchmaking works here it would be a nightmare. This because missions start without groups being full. This would in turn also effect people negatively that have no preference. Say you group up and you have 10 frames crossed off, the guy you get connected with have no frames or players crossed off, now he suddenly suffers from your "picky" choices. Which may result in the group not filling up in a timely manner or at all which means someone else got effected negatively by your choice and wasted time on it.

It would only work if they add a "restricted public" queue aswell, which would be the only place that would account for the specific preferation settings. That way only those that are picky would be matchmade with other players of equal mind. Suffering what they decide to suffer through by their selective choices.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

No one here is asking for WF to be like Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, Nioh or Doom. I even pointed that out in one of the very first posts of the first page highlighting there's no need to use the most extreme scenario such as Dark Souls in order to give us some challenge. Merely pointing out an inconvenient fact about the "power fantasy" argument (Harder games regarded as power fantasies) does not equal asking WF to be like them.  It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Also, the results from Steve's feedback form indicate that most of the dedicated community (By dedicated I mean people who care enough to even follow the devs on Twitter) show that the vast majority of players regard balance as an issue.

Not intentionally nitpicking as I agree with the intent of your post...

There actually have been people most precisely asking the Devs for the game to be more like DMC in melee combat.

Balance, as a concept, is subjective and is prone to shift depending on changes in variables.

For example:

This game is fairly easy if the player is modding for proper attribute stacking or uses certain frames.

This game is considerably less easy if the player doesn't mod for appropriate attribute stacking, or is using certain other frames.

[Felsagger]

31 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Yes. That is correct... 

The game is not so interesting that my issues with it give me license to actively attack and insult other players who's opinions about the game I don't agree with.

That's coming from a Founder who plugs money into this game in any month I sit down to play it...Whether I need the plat or not.

That said, when you lobby for changes to everyone's gameplay experience to suit your own self interest... Dissenting opinions should be expected.

As if that where a novelty. 

But the perception of the game is falling apart and collapsing into sarcasms of disappointments everywhere. People seems to lack that enthusiasm. Somehow DE turned their back on those founders as if that where a titled to be held with pride. Yes, individuals attach to things and disengage at some points when those objects of predilection doesn't feed their placebo anymore. People should learn and play other games or at least find diverse hobbies. Expecting greatness out of one game is the same as exercising false heroics over a collapsing bridge. 

Is your time wasted? Maybe, maybe not. You decided your fun and you paid for it. Such decision was your ticket for the movie. It happened that the movie was not that great. We have to live with the choices we made. I stayed with DE for seven years too but I played other games, had other hobbies and never placed all the eggs in one basket. I don't expect anyone do the same thing anyway. 

I think that DE will receive the right criticism in time when their bank account gets a hit with an aluminum bat. Only then they will do something for the founders and the rest of their customers. 

You know what? We brought this on ourselves. So "Who framed Roger Rabbit"? We helped DE pull the strings, the stick and carrot and the gamble.   

Quote

The game isn't pushing you to abuse others in a forum...You are making that choice for yourself.

People, inherently, leave things they outgrow...

Likewise, some people also prefer to settle for comfortable existences instead...

There are a ton of games that exist in what amounts to maintenance mode, still making money, with gameplay that has all but stopped evolving.

It's also why some games get run on private servers instead after the actual game got closed down too.

I'm not abusing others in the forums. Do I have to? That is something you decided to do. 

But other people should not tell us what to do when we outgrow things. We take those decisions ourselves. 

What comfortable existence is there to have? A game that does what? Provide a comfortable placebo? 

War Frame game play is not evolving at all. I wish that the game puts more emphasis in game play mechanics other than the charade of challenge and balance. 

The game became a circus, to boot we paid for it. 

Quote

You may as well uninstall the game then because the overriding logic for this game's progression and difficulty is already on display and hasn't distinctly wavered in many years.

This game is tough on the new player under MR3 and gets gradually easier from that point...That's not news.

If that's a cute meme generator for you then the question to ask would be, "Why are you playing cute meme generators when you supposedly don't like them?"

Well, because I use it to chat with people on clans, share some jokes, make fun of bad rivens or speak about probability and statistics more often. And of course get my tea time with it. You see, I cared for what it was. I'm here to write a critique. I still have fun with my games and of course I log in to War Frame just to help other players get their toys, help them being resourceful and when they outgrow the game, play with them Over Watch, Monster Hunter World and share some anecdotes about games in general. 

I don't blame DE for their mishaps. I blame the passive attitude we had during these years of not telling them what went really wrong with the picture. I repent myself of having such abstention. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Felsagger

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Not intentionally nitpicking as I agree with the intent of your post...

There actually have been people most precisely asking the Devs for the game to be more like DMC in melee combat.

Haven't seen those posts myself, but then I'd ask those people: How does combat work in DMC?

- In DMC, enemies take 9-18 hits to die depending on your combo and DT state. Enemies have massive pools of HP because the point of the game is to hit them with as many different attacks as possible as you avoid getting hit while you are rewarded with higher scores and red orbs the more varied your attacks are, with repeated attacks granting less style points.

And this is where they'll find out that idea is incompatible with horde shooters: How do you adapt that to WF?

Do you have a style grading system measuring how varied your attacks are?

Do you get rewarded for not getting hit?

Are you OK with enemies that take 8-18 hits from a Gram Prime with a Riven, Condition Overload and Blood Rush? 

I agree balancing can mean different things to different people, but at least you can get a picture of practical implications when you ask them to describe something. At that point they either accept that some things can not be directly translated, or they move the goalpost.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

With how matchmaking works here it would be a nightmare. This because missions start without groups being full. This would in turn also effect people negatively that have no preference. Say you group up and you have 10 frames crossed off, the guy you get connected with have no frames or players crossed off, now he suddenly suffers from your "picky" choices. Which may result in the group not filling up in a timely manner or at all which means someone else got effected negatively by your choice and wasted time on it.

Nah, I think it would be fine actually...

For instance:  If I am a player that wants to run public missions but suffers from light sensitivity and would prefer not to group with Novas...I actually should have that as an option.

If that means I wait longer to enter public missions because Wednesday is national Play as a Nova Day, then that's a fair trade-off as I signed up for it.

If it means some prospective Nova waits in queue a bit longer ? I find that irrelevant as the matchmaker doesn't match for roles.

If every player in the game is blocking Novas from entering their parties? Then DE should be able to see this as a listed outlier and start investigating why.

 

I would much rather see that than I would the litany of posts complaining about how bright Nova's powers could be _{(that actually happened btw)}.

 

If the matchmaking blocks a specific player instead? I'm good with that and always have been. 

A large part of the reason why some of the behavior in groups is so egregious at times is because there really is no accountability.

You get the random player that wants the co-op to actually be competitive and you don't dig it. Instead of complaining about it just block the person instead and you never have to deal with that person doing it in missions ever again. 

That player does it with enough people long enough and they start being grouped with players of a similar mind regardless. 

[Aldain]

6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That player does it with enough people long enough and they start being grouped with players of a similar mind regardless.

Or the cross-section of blocking makes it so that person 1 doesn't want to be with 2 or 3, 2 doesn't want to see 3 and 4, 3 doesn't want to see 1 and 4 and 4 doesn't want to see 1 and 2.

You might wind up with so many disqualifiers that nobody can find anybody. Granted this would be less likely if it were on a player-by-player basis, but making matchmaking account for up to 4 different people's "ban" lists would have trouble finding full games. 

Say a Rhino doesn't want to see a Sayrn, Mesa or Limbo, a Mirage player joins who doesn't want to see Ember, Nova, Excalibur and Loki, then a Wukong doesn't want to see Ivara, Khora, Banshee, Gauss and Grendel. By the third player the match has disqualified about 1/4th of the entire Warframe roster, and if the first or second player had 5 each instead it would be the same 1/4th disqualified.

It would create this utter mess where matches could have no way to be made because everyone disqualifies each other.

[Felsagger]

Why War Frame abilities sucks hard?

In War Frame abilities are just mere spasmodic spams.

In Other games abilities respond, react and changes the outcome. These becomes situational taking temporary advantage for the next strategy.

Where this works? Titan Fall 2, Over Watch. 

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, ranks21 said:

this is what I signed up for because it was original and different in many ways than most other games I have played since the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6cIRZlMQ3g

And now imagine the encounter in trailer replaced with all enemies just dropping dead almost instantly with no frame around. Because they were killed by Saryn that was spamming spores and miasma behind the wall. So badass, so original, 10/10, take my money.

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

As if that where a novelty...

That doesn't give you the right to abuse other players because you don't agree with their opinions.

...Do try and stay on subject.

16 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I'm not abusing others in the forums. Do I have to? That is something you decided to do. 

I could fill the bulk of a page with just your quotes in this thread...I am not even joking.

Tell you what...

If you feel abused by my posts... Please report it to the mods.

...That's vastly less work.

24 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Well, because I use it to chat with people on clans, share some jokes, make fun of bad rivens or speak about probability and statistics more often.

Nobody cares...it was rhetorical.

If you truly see the game as little more than a meme generator, still play it, and haven't stopped to ask yourself why...That's funny.

Qualifying why you do it just makes it funnier to me.

Asserting you only play Warframe to talk to your friends and arrange meetups in other games?

Allow me to assist...

Discord. 

There.

Fixed.

You can now uninstall War Frame 

There also this thing called "cell phones" that replaced the alphanumeric pager too.

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

That doesn't give you the right to abuse other players because you don't agree with their opinions.

...Do try and stay on subject.

I could fill the bulk of a page with just your quotes in this thread...I am not even joking.

Tell you what...

If you feel abused by my posts... Please report it to the mods.

...That's vastly less work.

You are being honest. At least that's something I respect. 

Why should I shut your mouth? I'm not going to report. I don't need to. I don't have to. 

 

I'm on topic discussing the subject with other members. You came here for a fight that I'm not interested to have. 

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

Nobody cares...it was rhetorical.

If you truly see the game as little more than a meme generator, still play it, and haven't stopped to ask yourself why...That's funny.

Qualifying why you do it just makes it funnier to me.

Asserting you only play Warframe to talk to your friends and arrange meetups in other games?

Allow me to assist...

Discord. 

There.

Fixed.

You can now uninstall War Frame 

There also this thing called "cell phones" that replaced the alphanumeric pager too.

I still like the game. I don't need to do that. 

I'm simply critiquing some decisions in it. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Why War Frame abilities sucks hard?

In War Frame abilities are just mere spasmodic spams.

In Other games abilities respond, react and changes the outcome. These becomes situational taking temporary advantage for the next strategy.

Where this works? Titan Fall 2, Over Watch. 

That's your own bias. "In warframe, abilities are this, but in other games they're completely different."

Ok dude lol. It's very common for games to have powers 1 through 4 with one of those powers doing the same thing they do in all games: DoT, AoE, Conal AoE, single target, single target crowd control, aoe crowd control etc. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Or the cross-section of blocking makes it so that person 1 doesn't want to be with 2 or 3, 2 doesn't want to see 3 and 4, 3 doesn't want to see 1 and 4 and 4 doesn't want to see 1 and 2.

You might wind up with so many disqualifiers that nobody can find anybody. Granted this would be less likely if it were on a player-by-player basis, but making matchmaking account for up to 4 different people's "ban" lists would have trouble finding full games. 

Say a Rhino doesn't want to see a Sayrn, Mesa or Limbo, a Mirage player joins who doesn't want to see Ember, Nova, Excalibur and Loki, then a Wukong doesn't want to see Ivara, Khora, Banshee, Gauss and Grendel. By the third player the match has disqualified about 1/4th of the entire Warframe roster, and if the first or second player had 5 each instead it would be the same 1/4th disqualified.

It would create this utter mess where matches could have no way to be made because everyone disqualifies each other.

I genuinely don't see that as a bad thing. Varying degrees of player mission selectivity already exist... We would just be adding more degrees to choose from.

On one hand, it teaches consideration for your teammates.

On the other, it teaches players about remaining open-minded about who you team with.

It can definitely become an issue if someone overuses it though but they are only, ulitmately, affecting themselves in the process.

I'm still good with a result like that.

[Felsagger]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

That's your own bias. "In warframe, abilities are this, but in other games they're completely different."

Ok dude lol. It's very common for games to have powers 1 through 4 with one of those powers doing the same thing they do in all games: DoT, AoE, Conal AoE, single target, single target crowd control, aoe crowd control etc. 

Wait, bias? Well humanity has bias. Don't blame me for having mine. You can have yours. 

 

The problem is that the use of powers on some frames don't compose combos. When a combo is performed such as magus lock down, pull a four with Mesa in mid air and land with a blow on a nox then you get something rewarding. The sequence of these combos and the speed in them makes the game amazing. However we have the issue of nuke frames and the frames that makes everything cheesy. Then we get a specie called the spammers. 

If the four abilities of war frames can work as stand alone and be combined then I'll surely stay. You want one example? Doom Fist circuit of abilities. Some War Frames can do that but the time of some casting abilities still takes too much.  

The game STILL HAS the opportunity of improving. The game play is there but somehow we can't put those to a test. That's all what I'm saying. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Wait, bias? Well humanity has bias. Don't blame me for having mine. You can have yours. 

 

The problem is that the use of powers on some frames don't compose combos. When a combo is performed such as magus lock down, pull a four with Mesa in mid air and land with a blow on a nox then you get something rewarding. The sequence of these combos and the speed in them makes the game amazing. However we have the issue of nuke frames and the frames that makes everything cheesy. Then we get a specie called the spammers. 

If the four abilities of war frames can work as stand alone and be combined then I'll surely stay. You want one example? Doom Fist circuit of abilities. Some War Frames can do that but the time of some casting abilities still takes too much.  

The game STILL HAS the opportunity of improving. The game play is there but somehow we can't put those to a test. That's all what I'm saying. 

Just because you go public instead of using a premade group doesn't mean there's no "combos" or whatever you mean lol.

You can still use Magus Lockdown and have you or a partner pop Mesas 4 in the air, then come down on a Nox with a ground slam....lol.

[SneakyErvin]

39 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Nah, I think it would be fine actually...

For instance:  If I am a player that wants to run public missions but suffers from light sensitivity and would prefer not to group with Novas...I actually should have that as an option.

If that means I wait longer to enter public missions because Wednesday is national Play as a Nova Day, then that's a fair trade-off as I signed up for it.

If it means some prospective Nova waits in queue a bit longer ? I find that irrelevant as the matchmaker doesn't match for roles.

If every player in the game is blocking Novas from entering their parties? Then DE should be able to see this as a listed outlier and start investigating why.

 

I would much rather see that than I would the litany of posts complaining about how bright Nova's powers could be _{(that actually happened btw)}.

 

If the matchmaking blocks a specific player instead? I'm good with that and always have been. 

A large part of the reason why some of the behavior in groups is so egregious at times is because there really is no accountability.

You get the random player that wants the co-op to actually be competitive and you don't dig it. Instead of complaining about it just block the person instead and you never have to deal with that person doing it in missions ever again. 

That player does it with enough people long enough and they start being grouped with players of a similar mind regardless. 

Fortnite tried it for their PvE, it was in from release. It lasted about a month before they had to remove it. That game ran on a matchmaker that was also several steps better than what WF has and that was only based on player avoidance, not heroes or archetypes. Overwatch also had it, same deal there, it had to be removed shortly after release. And Overwatch is a game where the players you have with you actually matters. It isnt just about slaughtering gazillions of trivial NPCs that pretty much any frame/weapon can do. I think I've had a dozen or so non leech encounters where I've thought "man I wish I could avoid this player!". And most of those times it has been due to toxicity towards someone else in the group and their choice of frame. Often due to not understanding the frame they complain about (hello Limbo haters). In the end it is a PuG.

I'm all for such a system if it is seperate from the main public queue. Players that dont care about the system should not be negatively impacted by another that wants only specific frames. If you wanna avoid the nature of PuGs the option is there in the shape of pre-mades. So if anything, ask for a specific queue where you can adjust your search with personal variables. Public is public in the end, what the game could use is an in-game report function that is simple to use in order to report leeches or trolls.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

We would just be adding more degrees to choose from.

The problem is that with each additional degree of blocking, the number of possible 4-man matches decreases exponentially, as Aldain rightfully pointed out. Furthermore, it is a system that isn't in the control of the individual player: the choices of others overusing the ban can remove possible matches for you even if you don't employ the system yourself and are not using a frequently banned frame. Each player that joins your squad increases the total amount of banned frames, even if you aren't banning any, which could effectively result in the inability to opt out of the system for the individual.

I reckon that DE can find better ways to detect outliers other than possibly ruining the experience for their own player base, with something as simply as public, in-game surveys that offer small participation rewards.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You can also play with your eyes closed or with a single hand.

Maybe your ears? Just drag them across your controllers joystick.

Man, that's the height of enjoyable challenge. Dark Souls move aside. /s

Then go play Dark Souls

You have to realize that the people who wants "teh challenge" (me included somehow) is a minority

Very vocal but a minority

And DE can't change the game for the minority of players, like Pablo acknowledges

Again, I'm really sure we're asking DE to do something that people won't play and will keep complaining

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

6 hours ago, Nehra96 said:

Those missions aren't very popular. Difficult stuff should be difficult without the player trying to make it difficult by cutting their own toes. 

Difficult stuff should be a bit more eeeh and a bit less uuuh with some wuuuush on top