Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, Tokens210 said:

this one in particular i cant get behind, they did have challenge to the game, then they destroyed the game

but in a similar situation as warframe they had max level players able to do intro level story missions

cause they are great comic book style storylines that people enjoy

newer or lower level players complained

they introduced what they call stat clamping, so your stats get dynamically nerfed based on the level of content you selected while your also get locked out of loot, cause they deem your probably to high a level to need the materials, or your high enough to get them from a missions thats above your level

so i went from being able to do the barry allen missions that i liked alot just for the story, with my healer, and i could carry low levels, show them where collectables are hidden, show them how to fight the bosses invunerability states, etc etc, basically enhance their enjoyment

to now my stats are clamped so i cant keep them alive the whole time but i am high enough as a healer i can run ahead and kill the boss ending the missions almost instantly in much of the old content atleast, effectively skipping a bunch of scenes and absolutely ruining the other player experience

 

they literally destroyed all replay value of every mission, while also leaving new player to fend for themselves (cause veterans arnt doing them missions, they get no rewards, its a waste of their time) and angering old players all at once, i still believe GU 43 or 46 or whatever it was that brought stat clamping is the largest hit they ever took to player base ( if you can still find the census info from before and after that update i believe the number was just about 1 million players lost in the next 30day maybe less time after that 1 update)

 

it actually made me unable to play the game anymore at all as i run content solo just like i do on warframe and with stat clamping it means to solo as a healer atleast i need to be above the required level so itll clamp me to max stats for that level, but doing that means i get no loot, so why even bother anymore

 

Aye I left after I saw that video of that level 10 or something beating up the best pvper in game 😂😂😂😂

[Felsagger]

45 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

A thought:

 

Oftentimes, video game balance isn't built on the strengths of an item or ability, but the drawbacks incurred by using it.

 

That's why cool downs works in games like Over Watch and Titan Fall 2. At least that controls the spasmodic spamming of them. 

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

 

That's why cool downs works in games like Over Watch and Titan Fall 2. At least that controls the spasmodic spamming of them. 

It's one way, but not the only way.

Also consider this applies to the macro level as well - to quote the other TF2, Spy might be able to one-shot any class, but god help you if you engage in open combat. It's not just the items that have drawbacks, the character as whole does.

[Corvid]

24 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

No, you're still talking about limiting variety.

Sure, in the mirror dimension. Here, I'm talking about the exact opposite.

[PatternistSlave]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

So who does warframe cater to?

Now you're just being negative for negativity's sake.  Warframe hasn't fundamentally changed.  It's a looter.  Catering to fans of looters.

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Sure, in the mirror dimension. Here, I'm talking about the exact opposite.

Ok, explain to me how you propose to take hundreds of abilities/weapons/etc and force them to have similar effects on enemies without limiting what makes them unique.

[Felsagger]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's one way, but not the only way.

Also consider this applies to the macro level as well - to quote the other TF2, Spy might be able to one-shot any class, but god help you if you engage in open combat. It's not just the items that have drawbacks, the character as whole does.

 

The job that must be done should go throughout an Excel table signalizing each frame like any other quotidian job such as architecture or engineering, in my opinion. In that table there could some categories and particularities. Then the other work would be the synergy between frames. That would be another table. The famous tiers. It's  painstaking process but once the table is complete then the whole set of frame can be analyzed better. 

If the job gets way too complex, Excel. With it all could be computed. I'm sure DE has detailed lists about damages, usage among many other technical issue. The can be solved but requires a lot of analysis and of course some compromises that may not benefit certain players. The abilities that provides invulnerability for an amount of time should be timed, in my opinion. Abilities that provides health could be timed according to the suitability of the frame. Each case depends on the frame in question. 

1. Working with enemy A.I., enemy behavior, newer enemy units, reworked enemy units. 

2. Balancing of certain frames under certain conditions such as cool downs. Heavy weapons use cool downs, so the solution is not extraneous to the game.

3. Increase in complexity on some mission types and of course some objective done simultaneously. 

4. Work with the level design so War Frame and enemies takes full advantage of them. 

5. Increase speed casting abilities on pertinent frames. 

War Frame doesn't distinguishes classes explicitly but somehow the player may recognize the tanks, healers, crowd control, speeders, farmers, support and the tile set cleaners or (nukes). I'm sure DE has all these analysis under wraps. Some careful adjustment on all those fronts could enrich the experience. All effort should be made towards better game play. 

 

[Corvid]

6 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Ok, explain to me how you propose to take hundreds of abilities/weapons/etc and force them to have similar effects on enemies without limiting what makes them unique.

For weapons, it's simply a matter of bringing them to a similar level of effectiveness, based on the same DPS calculation formula that DE uses to stat weapons of varying mastery rank (I'm of the opinion that making weapons disposable is rather counterintuitive when they have unique appearances and handling).

For abilities, it's mostly just reigning in the outliers through the various measures brought up in this thread already (adding line of sight, reducing spammability and so on).

Once players have a manageable range of power levels, the enemies could then be rebalanced. Less emphasis on pure stat scaling, more on enemies gaining new abilities at higher levels.

[Felsagger]

14 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Now you're just being negative for negativity's sake.  Warframe hasn't fundamentally changed.  It's a looter.  Catering to fans of looters.

Ok, explain to me how you propose to take hundreds of abilities/weapons/etc and force them to have similar effects on enemies without limiting what makes them unique.

You are rambling for the sake of rambling. Read what other people are saying. Read carefully. Don't make suppositions without analyzing their input. 

[PatternistSlave]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Less emphasis on pure stat scaling, more on enemies gaining new abilities at higher levels.

I think they've already done about all the can in terms of the rest of your post and we're actually in complete agreement here.  What you're talking about are new mechanics and those don't require a complete revamp of damage or anything else.  Nullifiers, arbitration drones, or Nox for example force us to engage with enemies differently without significant changes to damage numbers. 

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

You are rambling for the sake of rambling. Read what other people are saying. Read carefully. Don't make suppositions without analyzing their input. 

My not agreeing with people doesn't mean I didn't read what they wrote.  Agree with them if you want.  That's why there's a "like" button.  Don't spam ad hom at me please.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, PatternistSlave said:

You don't see the conflict in fostering Dynasty Warrior players and then expecting them to Dark Souls?  Cuphead types forced to grind though Diablo to get there?

You don't see how you're just typing exaggerated drivel?

[PatternistSlave]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You don't see how you're just typing exaggerated drivel?

You don't see how this is nothing but an ad hom attack?

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You don't see how this is nothing but an ad hom attack?

No, since I'm not referring to you, your character or your reasons for posting.

I attacked your post by stating it's exaggerated drivel. I mean, I did refer to you as "typing it" but if you consider something like that as an insult, then I don't know what to tell you. Get a thicker skin maybe?

Ree buzzwords ree. When you treat us with respect, I'll do the same.

[Corvid]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

You don't see how this is nothing but an ad hom attack?

That's not Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem would be if they made pejorative statements about your character, and then used that to unjustly discredit your argument. DeMonkey was simply describing what you were doing (that being a strawman fallacy).

9 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I think they've already done about all the can in terms of the rest of your post

Evidently not, otherwise Pablo wouldn't have said the things that started this thread in the first place.

[PatternistSlave]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

When you treat us with respect

No you won't and have made that pretty clear.  For example.  Explain to me how "Nuh uh, you're wrong." furthers the conversation in any meaningful way.  Explain to me why you've decided to completely derail the conversation in favor of attacking my posting style.

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Evidently not, otherwise Pablo wouldn't have said the things that started this thread in the first place.

Ok, everything they can short of a massive overhaul to the entire game and probably their business model.

[Corvid]

Just now, PatternistSlave said:

Ok, everything they can short of a massive overhaul to the entire game and probably their business model.

The things I described wouldn't need a massive overhaul. They would simply be using the same balancing toolset they already have in a different way. DPS formulae already exist, code for making AOE line-of-sight based already exists, it's just a matter of applying them.

Besides, this year has already seen two fairly substantial mechanical revision updates, so it's not as if DE's opposed to changing how the game works.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

59 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Now you're just being negative for negativity's sake.  Warframe hasn't fundamentally changed.  It's a looter.  Catering to fans of looters.

Ok, explain to me how you propose to take hundreds of abilities/weapons/etc and force them to have similar effects on enemies without limiting what makes them unique.

Explain how I’m being negative. And a looter is wf At it’s core. But that’s not a valid or descriptive enough answer to warrant who it caters to. People aren’t really big. On diablo right now but why? Isn’t it a looter catered to fans of looters? What mechanics are in place what gameplay is in place and what is keeping people here because any person especially right now in dev can learn visual scripting and make a looter. So what’s stopping you from doing such. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

@Corvid @DeMonkey  the lad doesn’t want to discuss let him argue with himself I’m drinking some tea right now anyone want some? 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Explain to me why you've decided to completely derail the conversation in favor of attacking my posting style

Er, because you're grossly exaggerating our points. I mean, how does doing that further the conversation, hmmm?

Yeah, thought not. 

10 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

No you won't and have made that pretty clear.

You're right, to you no, because you've never shown an ounce of it and I'm confident you never will.

[Corvid]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

@Corvid @DeMonkey  the lad doesn’t want to discuss let him argue with himself I’m drinking some tea right now anyone want some? 

Pass for now, thanks. It's currently coming up for 9:00PM here in the UK, and tea is really more of a mid-afternoon thing for me.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Corvid said:

Pass for now, thanks. It's currently coming up for 9:00PM here in the UK, and tea is really more of a mid-afternoon thing for me.

Same. Although I've gotten some nice cinnamon tea that's caffeine free. 

Could make myself one of them, but cider is much more my speed.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Same. Although I've gotten some nice cinnamon tea that's caffeine free. 

Could make myself one of them, but cider is much more my speed.

I’m in the us after I’m done with my tea I think I’m gonna go get some cake or a sweet out the fridge 

[Corvid]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

I’m in the us after I’m done with my tea I think I’m gonna go get some cake or a sweet out the fridge 

Enjoy!

[Felsagger]

43 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

 

My not agreeing with people doesn't mean I didn't read what they wrote.  Agree with them if you want.  That's why there's a "like" button.  Don't spam ad hom at me please.

 

I barely understand what he writes. Is this a new dialect in the English language? 

[PatternistSlave]

6 minutes ago, Corvid said:

The things I described wouldn't need a massive overhaul. They would simply be using the same balancing toolset they already have in a different way. DPS formulae already exist, code for making AOE line-of-sight based already exists, it's just a matter of applying them.

Besides, this year has already seen two fairly substantial mechanical revision updates, so it's not as if DE's opposed to changing how the game works.

"different way" meaning what exactly?  Making every CC ability uniformly useless when compared to damage is limiting variety, no?  Ultimately pointless as enemies can be made immune to CC anyway.  Nerfing damage is bullet sponges and you disagreed with anyway, no? 

sweatshawp already argues it's not even a looter.  What is it then?  A shooter?  Destiny?  If I wanted to play Destiny I'd play Destiny.  Sorry, but I don't have the confidence in DE to compete with Bungie in terms of shooter mechanics and a 3rd person shooter sounds pretty gross if I'm honest.

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You're right, to you no, because you've never shown an ounce of it and I'm confident you never will.

What have I said to you that was remotely disrespectful?  Nothing.  Because otherwise the lot of you would have reported me.  We've done this dance before.  Frankly it's pretty disgusting the way the mods have become tools of group harassment on these boards.

21 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Er, because you're grossly exaggerating our points. I mean, how does doing that further the conversation, hmmm?

Taking your ideas to their logical conclusions and/or getting at the root of your proposals seems pretty productive to me.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

What have I said to you that was remotely disrespectful?

Besides continuously misconstruing what we say and exaggerating our points?

Nah fam, totally not disrespectful. /s

3 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Frankly it's pretty disgusting the way the mods have become tools of group harassment on these boards.

Of course. It's totally the mods, you're a perfectly respectable ray of sunshine aren't you.

4 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Taking your ideas to their logical conclusions and/or getting at the root of your proposals seems pretty productive to me.

Except that's not what you're doing.

How exactly are "marshmallow" bullets a "logical conclusion"?

Wait, don't answer that. I know you probably think it is, so why bother asking, ay?