Pablo acknowledges why better AI alone will not be enough for good difficulty in WF: We need to be nerfed first

[Felsagger]

Some of them. Yes. Those that gives complete invulnerability for example LImbo's Cataclysm.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Felsagger

[Felsagger]

7 minutes ago, SocialFox said:

This video reminded me of the half-life speedruns people were doing back in the day. I wouldn't be capable of doing that at all regardless of how long I'd try it.

Takes time. Momentum traversing is possible but is not that easy. When is done correctly is so satisfying. War Frame allows a lot of freedom and is much easier to pull off. Titan Fall 2 is similar on that aspect but requires more precision and coordination. Both parkour systems worth the time to master them. 

[PatternistSlave]

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No one wants to shoot marshmallows at enemies

What you're advocating is to make this a reality for the majority of the playerbase.

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That is already anti-casual and they are doing it.

Which won't appeal to the more hardcore crowd and could alienate casual players.  Waste of dev time better spent elsewhere imo.

11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Warframe, as it stands, is a mess.

What you call "a mess" I call variety.

11 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Note the badge on my icon. I've been here since the beginning.

Yeah?  The game has provided you with 9 years worth of content.  Some level of burnout isn't to be expected?  It's unreasonable for me to assume you're ready for a completely different game?

18 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

being able to solo that Monster that wiped the floor with you an hour prior

So what would we need to accomplish this.  A steady influx of new gear and enemies with a complete rework of previous.  Probably a new business model.   Variety will need to be sacrificed.  In other words a completely different game.  Can we just have more bosses like Exploiter or some puzzles like the old raids?  Cause that doesn't require trashing 9 years worth of development.

30 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

..And I am a casual player.

I'm not and am advocating content not be catered to me personally.  I absolutely loved Railjack, ESO, Arbitrations, Liches, etc.  I'm only one player though and the game doesn't exist with just me.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

What you're advocating is to make this a reality for the majority of the playerbase.

No, I'm not.

What exactly do think you're going to accomplish with this? You're transparent.

[PatternistSlave]

7 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No, I'm not.

What exactly do think you're going to accomplish with this? You're transparent.

Yes you are.  Enemies requiring the gear I've accumulated after however many years of playing are enemies the rest of the playerbase are pelting with marshmallows.

The Wolf if you need a very recent example.

Edited May 22, 2020 by PatternistSlave

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, PatternistSlave said:

What you call "a mess" I call variety.

You misunderstand. I'm talking about the game's core mechanics, not the "islands" (which I am actually fine with. I love DE's ambition and never really had a problem with them trying new things).

Warframe is, at its foundation, unstable. Its mechanics all clash with one another in a way that means that it's nigh-impossible to get a consistent experience. When I say I want the game to be more challenging, what I want is for the game to have a more reliable level of difficulty.

Bear in mind, I don't even want the game to be hard (I play pretty much every game on Easy, and rarely venture above Normal if ever). I just want to feel like I can use the gear I want to, and still have the game push back at me. Right now, the content that's currently in the game either falls into "Everything's made of tissue paper and may as well be firing spitballs at me" or "the weapons I like don't deal nearly enough damage, and enemies can shred me as soon as they get in range". Having the game set somewhere in the middle of those two would be ideal.

12 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yeah?  The game has provided you with 9 years worth of content.  Some level of burnout isn't to be expected?  It's unreasonable for me to assume you're ready for a completely different game?

You assume that I'm burned out. I'm not. I don't just focus on one game at a time.

I'm just sharing my opinion on how Warframe might come closer to its potential. Something that, as prior posts have noted, the devs agree it is not currently reaching.

Regardless, it's become clear that you aren't actually interested in listening to what the proponents of challenge actually have to say, so I imagine that this will fall on deaf ears.

 

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Yes you are.  Enemies requiring the gear I've accumulated after however many years of playing are enemies the rest of the playerbase are pelting with marshmallows.

The Wolf if you need a very recent example.

You're right, obviously I was asking for DE to give us more of him, and to put him in every single level of the game so that new players fail after 2 hours, because obviously there's no level system in the game, nor ability to limit these enemies to higher level zones or any other sort of mechanic to stop new players from shooting "marshmallows". /s

Genius...

[Aldain]

Have we hit that point where we have somebody going "Let me tell you what you're saying?" because boy do I hate that.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Aldain said:

Have we hit that point where we have somebody going "Let me tell you what you're saying?" because boy do I hate that.

Apparently so. Didn't really expect anything else of course, but it's still a shame.

[Loza03]

A thought:

 

Oftentimes, video game balance isn't built on the strengths of an item or ability, but the drawbacks incurred by using it.

[Corvid]

3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Have we hit that point where we have somebody going "Let me tell you what you're saying?" because boy do I hate that.

So what you're saying is...

Nah, I'm joking. Yeah, we've hit that point a few times by now. It seems like that's the only form of argumentation that the ones opposed to balance know how to use.

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

A thought:

 

Oftentimes, video game balance isn't built on the strengths of an item or ability, but the drawbacks incurred by using it.

Missed an opportunity to say "Meditation:", methinks.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Corvid

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

A thought:

 

Oftentimes, video game balance isn't built on the strengths of an item or ability, but the drawbacks incurred by using it.

Don't mention cooldowns as being a viable option for powerful abilities to exist. Only satan advocates for cooldowns. /s

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Missed an opportunity to say "Meditation:", methinks.

Damnit, I have failed you Cy.

11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't mention cooldowns as being a viable option for powerful abilities to exist. Only satan advocates for cooldowns. /s

DE must be satan with that new Valkyr augment then /s

[Kaotyke]

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Don't mention cooldowns as being a viable option for powerful abilities to exist. Only satan advocates for cooldowns. /s

We could have what Countermeasures have rn: spam the ability in a set time and it will cost more energy with each cast.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

DE must be satan with that new Valkyr augment then /s

Tbf, of all the abilities that I feel deserve a cooldown... Hysteria wasn't one of them.

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

DE must be satan with that new Valkyr augment then /s

Well, with how some of the frames are designed, we know they're rather horny. /s

Too much?

[Aldain]

Just now, Corvid said:

Too much?

A bit yeah.

[OniDax]

25 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

What you call "a mess" I call variety.

Yeah?  The game has provided you with 9 years worth of content.  Some level of burnout isn't to be expected?  It's unreasonable for me to assume you're ready for a completely different game?

So what would we need to accomplish this.  A steady influx of new gear and enemies with a complete rework of previous.  Probably a new business model.   Variety will need to be sacrificed.  In other words a completely different game.  Can we just have more bosses like Exploiter or some puzzles like the old raids?  Cause that doesn't require trashing 9 years worth of development.

LOL. Variety and mess aren't mutually-exclusive. You can have a messy variety and you can have an orderly variety. Warframe offers a messy variety. Sure, there are a lot of things to do in the game, but there is no structure to it, no path of progression to access various systems, and no system that instructs players on how to engage with a number of those systems. Take, for example, how DE handled Jovian Concord. Previously, Jupiter was Alad V's map where he was doing Zanuka research. When players first get to the tileset, they're introduced to Alad V and it's a progression from what they experience on the preceding planets. With Jovian Concord, DE decides to add post-Sacrifice content to that planet, replacing the old content (while leaving Zanuka in its place). Now, players who haven't even gotten to The Second Dream are subjected to post-Sacrifice Sentient content, complete with Natah-planned, Alad-created Amalgams. That is messy development. That is disorderly development.

As for challenge, I'm not the kind of player that cries for challenge. I don't care about super-difficult content. What I care about is gameplay mechanics, mission design, map design, animations, graphics, sounds, music, things that affect the look and feel of the core gameplay. How hard or easy something is important for a game's accessibility, but ultimately the core gameplay experience largely stays the same whether the game is easy or hard. I believe that it's much more difficulty to have easy and challenging content if the gameplay mechanics are too simple.

I think that's the case for Warframe. The core gameplay experience is running as fast as we can, spamming our abilities and melee weapons as fast as we can, using the weapons that best one-shot enemies, in order to complete the mission as fast as we can and get our rewards as fast as we can. Regardless of the mission, that's what the gameplay ends up being. Why? Because there's nothing more to the gameplay than that. The game is focused on grinding and farming for reward items, and there's no real hook beyond the rewards. The gameplay isn't immersive. It isn't competitive (PvP is awfully-designed, mainly because the gameplay mechanics and animations are poor). The story is barebones and doesn't offer the appeal that film, television, and AAA stories offer. Some of that DE doesn't have the capability of offering. What Warframe could use is an improvement of its core mechanics, its animations, the way gunplay and melee gameplay feel, the way the tilesets are designed (from the map layout to the ambient environment and sound), the way missions are designed (design them in a way that requires more than just rushing through them as fast as possible), the way AI behaves (design them to do more than lumber around, shooting, and occasionally doing a single AOE ability), the focus of the gameplay (immerse players in a broad, diverse sci-fi gameplay experience first and focus on the grind and the farm and the RNG later), the way the story highlights characters and their development and growth over comedic and/or edgy scenes, etc. If the core gameplay experience improves, then you can have an orderly variety of content.

That's all.

 

Oh, also, where are you getting 9 years from?

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Tbf, of all the abilities that I feel deserve a cooldown... Hysteria wasn't one of them.

I suspect that was the plan - since it's also not particularly broken by a cooldown either, it's a relatively innocuous place for experimenting with community reactions.

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Well, with how some of the frames are designed, we know they're rather horny. /s

Too much?

Nah, not really.

[Corvid]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

A bit yeah.

 

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Nah, not really.

Who do I believe!?

[Loza03]

Just now, Corvid said:

 

Who do I believe!?

In yourself.

[Aldain]

Just now, Corvid said:

Who do I believe!?

I'm more reserved, Loza is more forward.

Believe whoever you believe in because we both believe in the us that believe in you believing in yourself.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Fortnite bleh bleh bleh

Fortnite PvE is tedious...The game would be dead without BR. Don't blame matchmaking for lack of interest.

On Overwatch, Why repeat exactly what I said, leave out the important bits regarding why, and then act like you said it for the first time?  

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

People just used the system to avoid more skilled players.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

as the system you mention was designed to weed out toxic players and worked just fine....The problem being that people used it to weed out especially good players too in order to increase or preserve their rank

'nuff said.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And what you describe with LFG systems is a different story.

Except for the fact I brought up 3 distinct games...

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Overwatch's current soft queue is for roles and FFXIV's duty finder works much the same way and both are improvements over what we have now.

Why leave out the other 2? Well... Because discussing those would negate your stance altogether.

You should have just said, "Last Word".

[PatternistSlave]

31 minutes ago, Corvid said:

You misunderstand.

No, you're still talking about limiting variety.  There's no way to "balance" hundreds of unique abilities/weapons/whatever.

32 minutes ago, Corvid said:

I don't just focus on one game at a time.

Which I'd encourage others to do as well.

33 minutes ago, Corvid said:

you aren't actually interested in listening to what the proponents of challenge actually have to say

I'm sorry that's the impression you've gotten, but I just don't agree with the conclusions you're reaching.  There are strengths to Warframe and it's disingenuous pretending they aren't weakened to make way for hypothetical new avenues.

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

limit these enemies to higher level zones

When?  After a few years of grinding?  Months?  You don't see the conflict in fostering Dynasty Warrior players and then expecting them to Dark Souls?  Cuphead types forced to grind though Diablo to get there?

Oh and there's no need to be snide.  The Wolf was just an example.  Point stands divorced from accessibility.  Revamped damage is effecting time to kill, not necessarily "difficulty".

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I don't find any of the listed games more challenging than WF so I'm not sure of your point.

You've decided is related to a lack of challenge as opposed to the opposite.  I dunno.  The content released lately has seemed an attempt to cater more to veterans with a less than stellar result.

Let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum pls.  You understood the point I was making.

"We" already have.  These are the types of players Warframe was designed to attract.

That’s a personal op but the challenge is there. Late game SOM is very challenging and has a endgame loop 

bdo and eso in itself are a challenge within raids and trials along with certain delves and world bosses like dragons to be a worthy adversary even for large groups at times.

Blade and soul is in a similar case with bdo and eso 

vindictus a heavy pve based game has a late game with challenging enemies if you’ve been keen to get there over the years

someone mentioned vanquish a fast paced almost first person bullet hell shooter that has arguably better movement and shooting than warframe and they are right has more challenge.

god of war can provide challenge. 

I can keep going on a power fantasy and challenge can go hand in hand and exist quite well if I do say so myself.

 

And currently the new content does not relay challenge no matter how much they try. Because of powercreep. They introduce a lich that I can up until recently oneshot with rev 

Still

Melt with valk 

ignore with Inaros. Rhino nezha hildryn volt trinity (should I continue)

Kill fast af with ash.

Caps are a glorified (point sniper here and use amp)

eso is Saryns  equinox’s playground 

arbys are (but I have ray gun pick me up 😞 ) 

railjack is easy before and easy now. It’s not challenge is gear checks only in warframe at the moment and given the powerspike any player can access post mr 6-7 when a lot of STRONGER weapons become available in harmony with the power creep that (may I add de has said themselves that they have neglected balance for years why does everyone skim over this) player have amassed with anyframe. Challenge is almost non existent within warframe. That’s the issue 

 

a personal attack is freindly Fire not this (all jokes asie) the baboon just stated a valid criticism give him his banana 

Warframe isn’t designed to attract anyone right now 

new player retention is still low as ever and getting lower.

vets don’t play the game and are still leaving so player retention in general is down.

the players in the middle of their journey are leaving because warframe does such an great job of explaining everything.

even the fashion framers and captura folk aren’t as active being that I am in a group of great and talented captura folk and I do have an alias I go by within the captura community a lot of people while still active just aren’t into dolly dressup anymore. 

So who does warframe cater to?