Hard mode brought back bullet sponge (Dont Nerf it though)

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

10 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I mean seriously what fun is something, if you never have to use any effort to improve, or achieve something.  Overcoming obstacles is a mini reward in itself. 

this is were you have me wrong

 

killing something in 5 seconds can be extremely difficult.

 

Lets pretend an enemy has a shield and a gun. The gun is dealing so much damage that it might kill you in 4 seconds, all the while the enemies shield is keeping you from killing the enemy as he keeps knocking you back with it and blocking all your shots. You must disarm him of his shield quickly to kill him but to do this, you need to use the correct kind of attack

lets say there are 4 different types of shields, one can only be destroyed with a melee charge attack, a slam attack, one that must be shot in the center of the shield, and one that requires you to use an ability on it.

The 4 shields come in 4 different shapes but usually the same color. This will be your only hint in identifying the type of attack you need to use to disarm the enemy of his shield

This is a quite a bit to process in 4 seconds given all that you might be going through, yet you can kill that enemy just as fast as long as you succesfully proccess the information quickly enough

 

i find it more fun than shoot enemy's head for 1 minute

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Kainosh]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Correct me if im wrong as i have not researched much about the human brain, but the reason bullet sponge and "rng deaths" are bad forms of difficulty, has a lot to do with humans being an intelligent species. Games are supposed to grab onto (a) section(s) of a persons brain such as memory, reflex, cognition, etc.. and Test that part of the person brain, with the difficulty of the testing ranging from easy to intense, testing.

You are absolutely correct. But DE cant do that....or just don't want to.

Because it would require lots of nerfs to Warframes and some weapons. That is a LOT of work for just a "mode"....Coz for good AI to work properly, you need to redo ALL enemies and  ALL warframe AOE powers....their duration, stun times, cc and all that sht.  

Coz with current Warframe "power level" enemy's "skill" doesn't matter.  Even their Numbers and amount of EHP doesn't.   Can just CC them while stacking Spores and then they will die anyway.   Or just Vauban them and then Melee, that will get crazy multiplier from all those hits (like we did in the old days when high level enemies were introduced for the first time)

 

Also, check out how we do not even have "Enemy and AI" forum section.  You cant even provide feedback about enemy units.  

 

[Drachnyn]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Nichivo:

Why did I not see you posting this to all the people failing railjack missions, and claiming it was to hard? If that was the case... Why exactly did DE nerf everything in railjack that had any chance of posing any problem. It was supposed to be a group play, and yet now there isn't even a need for command intrinsic.

I disagree entirely. 

Because Death's Door tanking without any escalation is not interesting to me. It works well in the context of darkest dungeon (which I stole the name from) because that game has the whole stress mechanic. Initially turret damage was really bad. The strat was use amesha until you get void hole/munitions vortex. People wanted to use guns and noticed that enemies just wouldnt die to them. Apperently DE didnt want the turrets to be completely worthless.

I pretty much solo'd my way through all railjack missions on release. It was never actually hard, just boring.

[Nichivo]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

this is were you have me wrong

 

killing something in 5 seconds can be extremely difficult.

 

Lets pretend an enemy has a shield and a gun. The gun is dealing so much damage that it might kill you in 4 seconds, all the while the enemies shield is keeping you from killing the enemy as he keeps knocking you back with it and blocking all your shots. You must disarm him of his shield quickly to kill him but to do this, you need to use the correct kind of attack

lets say there are 4 different types of shields, one can only be destroyed with a melee charge attack, a slam attack, one that must be shot in the center of the shield, and one that requires you to use an ability on it.

The 4 shields come in 4 different shapes but usually the same color. This will be your only hint in identifying the type of attack you need to use to disarm the enemy of his shield

This is a quite a bit to process in 4 seconds given all that you might be going through, yet you can kill that enemy just as fast as long as you succesfully proccess the information quickly enough

 

i find it more fun than shoot enemy's head for 1 minute

That doesn't sound hard. It's just a minor mechanic that someone like myself would figure out on the fly in a game, even if it was introduced without prior knowledge. Then Like prosecutors I would watch it get nerfed because of all the complaints about it being too hard.🤣

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

4 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

That doesn't sound hard. It's just a minor mechanic that someone like myself would figure out on the fly in a game, even if it was introduced without prior knowledge. Then Like prosecutors I would watch it get nerfed because of all the complaints about it being too hard.🤣

i was telling you that for a basic idea of what the enemy could be like, you can add more complications to the fight such as more enemies requiring you to recall more information and requiring you to occasionally take cover

the difficulty is endless

 

you werent supposed to take that as the peak of the difficulty of course lol. i just gave you a foundation to expand on since the amount of additions you could put on said difficulty are infinite

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Nichivo]

1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

 

I pretty much solo'd my way through all railjack missions on release. It was never actually hard, just boring.

I solo'd it all as well. I however unlike yourself, am not happy with it being made even easier. 

Being able to solo veil missions with only one avionic installed, and zero chance of failure. Just doesn't scream fun time to me. I loved railjack on release, but now it's absolutely zero fun.

[Drachnyn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Nichivo:

I solo'd it all as well. I however unlike yourself, am not happy with it being made even easier. 

Being able to solo veil missions with only one avionic installed, and zero chance of failure. Just doesn't scream fun time to me. I loved railjack on release, but now it's absolutely zero fun.

But that's how it was on release aswell. A tycho seeker mk3 could oneshot every enemy and if you shot it into a void hole it one shot the entire group. The top end of railjack hasnt changed. It's just now that other things can also get the job done before people will alt f4 out of boredom.

[Nichivo]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

i was telling you that for a basic idea of what the enemy could be like, you can add more complications to the fight such as more enemies requiring you to recall more information and requiring you to occasionally take cover

the difficulty is endless

 

you werent supposed to take that as the peak of the difficulty of course lol. i just gave you a foundation to expand on since the amount of additions you could put on said difficulty are infinite

It'll never happen. Have you not seen all the complaints. We have had mechanic based enemies in the past, they get nerfed into fluffy little bunnies. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

12 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

It'll never happen

a sad but most probable truth

12 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Have you not seen all the complaints. We have had mechanic based enemies in the past, they get nerfed into fluffy little bunnies

i actually dont think i have ever seen warframe introducing an enemy that works like the shield styled one i mentioned above

The Nox grineer unit comes close but hes still the same mechanic wise

And ambulas was actually changed to have more attacks that require the use of a players reflexes. Sortie ambulas is rather pleasing. i didnt notice it had weak points at first so i used to hate sortie ambulas till then. Pretty cool touch

Edited June 29, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Nichivo]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

But that's how it was on release aswell. A tycho seeker mk3 could oneshot every enemy and if you shot it into a void hole it one shot the entire group. The top end of railjack hasnt changed. It's just now that other things can also get the job done before people will alt f4 out of boredom.

How is making something already easy, even easier to the point you don't even need all the avionics, not boring to you? Before the revisit I played a ton of railjack. I can't even stand the thought of playing it now. I'm sorry I just don't find anything where everything dies instantly fun. I don't have to repair, don't have to manage resources, it's been turned into completely brain dead gameplay. At least before when playing railjack solo you might have to multi manage a few things, but now there is nothing to do.

All they managed to do with those changes is insure everyone will quit playing railjack after they get rewards, and they will get them even faster. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Nichivo:

How is making something already easy, even easier to the point you don't even need all the avionics, not boring to you? Before the revisit I played a ton of railjack. I can't even stand the thought of playing it now. I'm sorry I just don't find anything where everything dies instantly fun. I don't have to repair, don't have to manage resources, it's been turned into completely brain dead gameplay. At least before when playing railjack solo you might have to multi manage a few things, but now there is nothing to do.

All they managed to do with those changes is insure everyone will quit playing railjack after they get rewards, and they will get them even faster. 

All of that was already present and I it was already boring to me. If you want to complete the missions as fast as possible you still need proper resource management from your crafter. Even before the rework I could solo my way through missions without problems on my ship. And even before the rework people ditched the game mode entirely as soon as they were done. After getting my intrinsics to 10 I didnt touch the gamemode a single time until i got into the first test cluster.

[Nichivo]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

All of that was already present and I it was already boring to me. If you want to complete the missions as fast as possible you still need proper resource management from your crafter. Even before the rework I could solo my way through missions without problems on my ship. And even before the rework people ditched the game mode entirely as soon as they were done. After getting my intrinsics to 10 I didnt touch the gamemode a single time until i got into the first test cluster.

No you don't. You don't have to craft anything when playing railjack now unless you are unlucky with triggering an avionic, or using a bad build. If I run my full avionics solo set up I can go into a mission and never have to touch the forge, never have to repair anything, it's a complete joke now. I am only amazed that you try and defend making something easy, into trivial as better game play, or less boring.

Even the current movement isn't fun as previous railjack movement(good thing they fixed it for the gunners, you know the ones that were never needed from the start)

[DrivaMain]

So DE makes the non meta weapons even more useless in Steel Path? 
 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb DrivaMain:

So DE makes the non meta weapons even more useless in Steel Path

Why should "high-level" mission be playable for the weakest weapons? 

[DrivaMain]

Just now, ES-Flinter said:

Why should "high-level" mission be playable for the weakest weapons? 

All weapons are viable in general warframe content if you choose to invest on it. But with the current state of steel path goes against Warframe’s secret sauce which is loadout variety.

Remove this hidden modifier, it only enforces a strict META in loadout choice.

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Ive finally begun to just take my break from warframe though. i think @Sevek7 has put into terms what warframe is verses what I thought it was or was trying to be. A game of prep instead of reflex and "style" (see Devil May Cry or Assassins creed combat for what i mean by style)

it simply isnt my cup of tea. I'll always return to this game but its a shame

I've had the same experience! I started playing Warframe at some point in 2014 and fell in love. It felt like a reflex & skill based shooter with powers. I loved it.

Now, it's about preparation. It's all about the build, and your personal skill level has very little effect. I also think it's a real shame because the foundation of Warframe (mobility system, aiming, trick-shots, weapon swapping) is extremely good for skill based shooters. I don't think it's really the devs fault though, they've tried to follow the trends of modern day gaming in order to survive. I think if Warframe was made 6 or 7 years earlier it would have been very well received as a skill based shooter. But, Warframe entered the market around the time of declining MMOs, when the overall gaming community had made a pretty significant shift. People no longer wanted skill based, they wanted to be rewarded for their time and to see their progress reflected in their gear, not their reaction time. 

There is a small pocket of Warframe that stays true to the skill based shooter aspect. It's conclave.

3 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

I'm a person who wishes the Lato would stay a viable choice despite the difficulty of the mission. I crave difficulty that tests your brain's reflexes in short burst (or a long time just as long as the enemy im fighting has a large variety of different attacks).

Even this exists! Lato is a very effective weapon in conclave. I often use Mk-1 Braton, Lato, and Skana in matches because it's actually a really decent loadout. Unfortunately, the majority of the current Warframe population is pretty invested in the grind style of Warframe where we have to repeat easy things over and over, and the real challenge is to beat the RNG. The community at large therefore resists skill based challenges like conclave, so it's become a bit of a meme and some of Warframe's loudest voices try to dismiss conclave players using phrases like "sweaty tryhard." Personally, I want a game that rewards me for trying hard, and makes me break a sweat. The PvE currently is closer to naptime than that.

I think it's worth trying conclave before you give up on skill based combat in Warframe. Be warned there are plenty of exploiters around abusing broken stuff because devs unfortunately listen to those loud voices and so conclave fixes usually come once every 9 months or so. Feel free to join the conclave discord if you want to find private matches where known exploiters aren't allowed to join 🙂 

 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

All weapons are viable in general warframe content if you choose to invest on it. But with the current state of steel path goes against Warframe’s secret sauce which is loadout variety.

Remove this hidden modifier, it only enforces a strict META in loadout choice.

Again why is the weakest weapon in warframe as effective as the strongest one? If someone invest resources, time and credits into it he should have a weapon which is better than the starter weapon. In theory it has better stats, but in the end it doesn't matter if the enemy gets one shotted by a MK1-Braton or a tiberon prime. Steel path can become the mission which show you why you invested so much time just for this prime, wraith, kuva,... weapon.

The only problem are aoe weapons. There is no reason to use a single target weapon, because aoe wepons have the same strengths and they kill more than one enemy at once. IMO it could be easy fixed with differnet head shot multipler and punch trough.

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Again why is the weakest weapon in warframe as effective as the strongest one? If someone invest resources, time and credits into it he should have a weapon which is better than the starter weapon.

All weapons in warframe needs to be viable on endgame content if you choose to invest on it. This is where riven mods intended use comes to play, extra boost to these weapons that requires investment. Sadly if they enforce this modifier it will make these weapons struggle even if they have a 5 dispo riven installed.

[ES-Flinter]

vor einer Stunde schrieb DrivaMain:

All weapons in warframe needs to be viable on endgame content if you choose to invest on it. This is where riven mods intended use comes to play, extra boost to these weapons that requires investment. Sadly if they enforce this modifier it will make these weapons struggle even if they have a 5 dispo riven installed.

Then they have to buff the weapon/ riven but not nerf the mission!

And not every weapon has to be viable. New and more expensive gear is always better than the old one. It's the own choice if someone want to go with the time or stay behind.

Edited June 30, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Marine027]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb ES-Flinter:

Then they have to buff the weapon/ riven but not nerf the mission!

And not every weapon has to be viable. New and more expensive gear is always better than the old one. It's the own choice if someone want to go with the time or stay behind.

I agree on both but then you have still heavy inbalance between weapons like those with the same MR, like a lot mentioned now single target vs AoE are a problem, the game is a horde shooter but we need reasons to use most of our gear and not just one loadout that clearly is the meta for certain gamemodes.

That is the main problem with those, not just going with time, after all you can balnce it due it is a game and not like real life trowing something old away, it is like asking in an MMORPG to jsut forget one class because another repalced it. Like a Tank or DD.

We simply goten way to much gear in to less time i say, to many frames especillay which onyl concepts but no connction to the world and now ahve to "fix" it with Leviran as example, same goes for weapons, alot of concepts that not turned out well, Dual Dark Sword, Cernos Prime inbuild multishot, Ballista Prime clone mechanic , etc.

We need less concepts and more fixed stuff and balanced thought trough gear, modes and overall content.

[Amazerath]

2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Then they have to buff the weapon/ riven but not nerf the mission!

And not every weapon has to be viable. New and more expensive gear is always better than the old one. It's the own choice if someone want to go with the time or stay behind.

According to Rebecca's post, The Steel Path is not supposed to be associated with endgame: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1203260-the-steel-path-upcoming-hard-mode

So strong gear barriers that force you to only use the best of the best have no reason to be in this game mode. Of course, that is assuming DE isn't already confused about what they are trying to accomplish.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb Amazerath:

According to Rebecca's post, The Steel Path is not supposed to be associated with endgame: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1203260-the-steel-path-upcoming-hard-mode

 

Am 25.6.2020 um 19:01 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

THE STEEL PATH:

Teshin has an opportunity for Tenno who have proven themselves. Those who have completed the Solar Map will be invited to unlock THE STEEL PATH from Teshin in a future update.

The details of THE STEEL PATH are as follows. These are not complete Patch Notes. We wanted to give everyone a chance to review details on The Steel Path in a very simple Dev Workshop. Just over 1000 Tenno will be playing these changes over the weekend for practical feedback. 


What it is:
✅ Higher Difficulty Series of content that rewards exclusive cosmetic decorations, emotes, and mastery.
✅An extra layer of opportunity for players to use their powerful gear to take on threats at a higher level without having to wait in missions for long periods of time.
✅ A way to engage with some better scaling Affinity and Mod Rewards.

What it isn’t:
❌ - intended to be associated with the nebulous ‘end game’ topic.
❌ - overly complicated in its goal to simply provide higher level content and some exclusive rewards.
❌ - tiered. We are providing one 100+ level pass to be cognizant of matchmaking for our first iteration. 

If you have unlocked all missions in game can enter our Test Cluster Key Lottery here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1203250-public-test-cluster-opt-in-key-lottery-2/

 

Short: Steel path is weather "endgame" or "startgame". It just a mission to test our powerful gear. And I'm sure that except for the stug almost any weapon has enough crit./ status chance to kill the enemies.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Marine027:

That is the main problem with those, not just going with time, after all you can balnce it due it is a game and not like real life trowing something old away, it is like asking in an MMORPG to jsut forget one class because another repalced it. Like a Tank or DD.

Why not? I could bet that you already sold your starting gear against a stronger better one. In warframe we have +400 weapons it's clear that some weapons are for starters and other for experience player.

[Amazerath]

31 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

Short: Steel path is weather "endgame" or "startgame". It just a mission to test our powerful gear. And I'm sure that except for the stug almost any weapon has enough crit./ status chance to kill the enemies.

You're talking about "testing", which implies there is something you're interested in learning. What would that be?

[Marine027]

vor einer Stunde schrieb ES-Flinter:

Why not? I could bet that you already sold your starting gear against a stronger better one. In warframe we have +400 weapons it's clear that some weapons are for starters and other for experience player.

Yes but i mean those weapons that have the same MR yet differ still to much, i not mean compare a MK-1 Furis to a Akjara Prime.

Look at some of those old pistols they are simply outdated, not because to old, compare a AkFuris again to lets say Twin Grakata, the ammo pool alone is way to outdated between those two. Those balance issue i talk about, it is not the weapon is simply better but because the old weapons work on old mechanics that never got a update with current weapon changes.

Things like Rivens not help despite claiming they were suppsoed to be, 200% damage on a 16 damage weapon vs a newer one with 120 is a big difference simply thata Riven won#t be worth it at all, faking balance this way.

As said of course old equipment will be outdated eventually but not to such degree, due its way to broken, we even see this with newer stuff, Bramma as example and Lenz, they could had simply update the Thunderbolt mod to bring other Bows also to such as optional AoE, the Mods are the main problem in this aswell.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Amazerath:

You're talking about "testing", which implies there is something you're interested in learning. What would that be?

"Use" would probably fit better. But to answer you question, I don't know what I can learn from them.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Marine027:

Yes but i mean those weapons that have the same MR yet differ still to much, i not mean compare a MK-1 Furis to a Akjara Prime.

Look at some of those old pistols they are simply outdated, not because to old, compare a AkFuris again to lets say Twin Grakata, the ammo pool alone is way to outdated between those two. Those balance issue i talk about, it is not the weapon is simply better but because the old weapons work on old mechanics that never got a update with current weapon changes.

Things like Rivens not help despite claiming they were suppsoed to be, 200% damage on a 16 damage weapon vs a newer one with 120 is a big difference simply thata Riven won#t be worth it at all, faking balance this way.

As said of course old equipment will be outdated eventually but not to such degree, due its way to broken, we even see this with newer stuff, Bramma as example and Lenz, they could had simply update the Thunderbolt mod to bring other Bows also to such as optional AoE, the Mods are the main problem in this aswell.

I understand it and I agree with you on this. Sorry for the misunderstanding.^^

Edited June 30, 2020 by ES-Flinter