Can u return SELFDAMAGE and STOP NERF?

[SebyShine]

Stop nerfing! reintroduce self-damage, put BRAMMA back as it was before and put valid content where badass weapons can be used.

[trunks013]

Welcome to the forums tenno ^.^

I understand that some changes may be annoying to some. Self-dammage removed a way to cheese with chroma for example.

But you may need to build your feedback in a better way i think. 

 

 

[Rin-senpai]

nerfing? xDDD

[SebyShine]

On 2020-08-12 at 10:02 PM, trunks013 said:

Welcome to the forums tenno ^.^

I understand that some changes may be annoying to some. Self-dammage removed a way to cheese with chroma for example.

But you may need to build your feedback in a better way i think. 

 

 

do I have to write it in general? anyway, it is enough for me that the message gets to them, and I don't give a damn about chrome, I care that they put the self-damage back and stop listening to the kids who complain about enemies lvl 1-5 and say that they are difficult ... STOP (sry for my bad english)

[trunks013]

Just now, SebyShine said:

do I have to write it in general? anyway, it is enough for me that the message gets to them, and I don't give a damn about chrome, I care that they put the self-damage back and stop listening to the stupid children who complain about enemies lvl 1-5 and say that they are difficult ... STOP (sry for my bad english)

Np for bad english i'm the kind at it here LOL ^.^ 

I understand you believe me i lost my favorite opponent when they removed self damage ... AUTOMATIC DOORS !

But the way you built your thread wont attract the interest you want to have.

[ixidron92]

En 12/8/2020 a las 22:00, SebyShine dijo:

Stop nerfing! reintroduce self-damage, put BRAMMA back as it was before and put valid content where badass weapons can be used.

They should return self damage just for you and keep it as it is now for everyone else.

[SebyShine]

3 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

They should return self damage just for you and keep it as it is now for everyone else.

All game have self damage.... therefore if kids don't know how to handle weapons that do OE damage, and stop complaining, that's their problem, and many other people agree with me on this issue!

[ixidron92]

hace 3 minutos, SebyShine dijo:

All game have self damage.... therefore if kids don't know how to handle weapons that do OE damage, and stop complaining, that's their problem, and many other people agree with me on this issue!

First of all, that's untrue. A lot of games don't have self-damage, and those who do, rarely have weapons instakill you in a large radius. Having a lot of people agreeing with you doesn't make something right, and self-damage was removed by a massive and constant demand after many years of complains and bad attempts at mitigating it. So, you're in the minority here, not in the majority. Explosive weapons were vastly underutilized because most of them were a constant dead sentence.

[Tyreaus]

First, I don't think insulting people by calling them "stupid children" is going to further your point terribly well.

Second, undoing nerfs to the Bramma and re-adding self-damage are two different issues. It's harder to justify from a balance view, but you can have your cake and eat it, too - if you so wished.

Third, there was a good amount of debate surrounding self-damage not that long ago. I think it would help your point were you to, at least, acknowledge the controversy of the topic. Proposing a solution of some sort that addresses some of those points - one of which was how a relatively minute error could lead to a disproportionate amount of self-damage, or what was practically instant death - would help even more than that. I've said before that making Tenno v Self or Tenno v Tenno damage unmodded, unranked damage would not only help fix self-damage, but also friendly fire.

[SebyShine]

13 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

First of all, that's untrue. A lot of games don't have self-damage, and those who do, rarely have weapons instakill you in a large radius. Having a lot of people agreeing with you doesn't make something right, and self-damage was removed by a massive and constant demand after many years of complains and bad attempts at mitigating it. So, you're in the minority here, not in the majority. Explosive weapons were vastly underutilized because most of them were a constant dead sentence.

 

13 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

First, I don't think insulting people by calling them "stupid children" is going to further your point terribly well.

Second, undoing nerfs to the Bramma and re-adding self-damage are two different issues. It's harder to justify from a balance view, but you can have your cake and eat it, too - if you so wished.

Third, there was a good amount of debate surrounding self-damage not that long ago. I think it would help your point were you to, at least, acknowledge the controversy of the topic. Proposing a solution of some sort that addresses some of those points - one of which was how a relatively minute error could lead to a disproportionate amount of self-damage, or what was practically instant death - would help even more than that. I've said before that making Tenno v Self or Tenno v Tenno damage unmodded, unranked damage would not only help fix self-damage, but also friendly fire.

Let's say things as they are. No more bullS#&$ and excuses. I expressed myself badly and meant that in games where there are explosive weapons there is self-damage, an example? we take GTA? grantate, RPG, missile lang ... should I continue? explosive weapons must exist, I don't know how you play but I use my head to reason and my hands to shoot, if you are a noob and you don't know how to manage this, worse for you! learn to shoot! then yes, in fact, I exaggerated with the thing of the kids ... right ... to have a bit of salt in the pumpkin you could use the mod that reduces the self damage, I don't know if you ever thought about it. This "stomp" that enemies make you, for all the people I know they all say it's annoying, I don't tell you when you get stuck during the stomp and you can't use skills, you can't use tenno, you can't do anything, and self damage it was the only DEFINITIVE way to unlock. However do as you sometimes do, and one more thing, keep the nerf of everything on everything. LAST THING: Do you really need NERF in a PVE ??? serious?? where are warframes, weapons of mass destruction, then the exodia contagion? that thing you get ONCE IN THE PLUGSTAR! a VERY RARE item, which arrives once every ever ... I don't know about you, but these things sucks to me ...

[RamonLLLL]

13 hours ago, SebyShine said:

 if kids don't know how to handle weapons that do OE damage, and stop complaining, that's their problem

Ironic

[Aldain]

As a guy who's problem with self-damage was the amount of damage and not the existence of said damage, let me say that anyone advocating for the return of instantly dying because somebody walked in front of you is certifiably insane, same with the lot who want the Kuva Lich auto-death back.

It accomplished nothing but driving people away from them and were irritating solely for the sake of being irritating especially when several Warframes can and still do the same thing for less.

But honestly...

[Kokokojo]

Self damage removal was a thing done by the Devs for 2 reasons:
1 - It was a rather unconventional way to punish the player for using explosive weapons. Automatic doors, enemies, pets and teammates  in your face out of nowhere was the main reason (among others) for the majority of the community ask fo the removal.

2 - DE was already trying to work around that by adding the Cautious Shot mod (that wasn't enought, because even 1% of teh weapon damae was enough to kill you) and making sure newly released explosive weapons has a "safity range" to band-aid that, so there was little reason to keep the self-damage other than satisfy a very small part of the community and, as DE said themselves in the Stream, Chroma mains.


With a rather light punishment for the explosion, they made that explosion had a fall-off mechanic so people doen't just unga-bunga through it.

About the "why nerf PvE game???" here is the reason: It's a Co-Op PvE, the game is not only yours, there are other people playing it.
 

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, SebyShine said:

 

Let's say things as they are. No more bullS#&$ and excuses. I expressed myself badly and meant that in games where there are explosive weapons there is self-damage, an example? we take GTA? grantate, RPG, missile lang ... should I continue? explosive weapons must exist, I don't know how you play but I use my head to reason and my hands to shoot, if you are a noob and you don't know how to manage this, worse for you! learn to shoot! then yes, in fact, I exaggerated with the thing of the kids ... right ... to have a bit of salt in the pumpkin you could use the mod that reduces the self damage, I don't know if you ever thought about it. This "stomp" that enemies make you, for all the people I know they all say it's annoying, I don't tell you when you get stuck during the stomp and you can't use skills, you can't use tenno, you can't do anything, and self damage it was the only DEFINITIVE way to unlock. However do as you sometimes do, and one more thing, keep the nerf of everything on everything. LAST THING: Do you really need NERF in a PVE ??? serious?? where are warframes, weapons of mass destruction, then the exodia contagion? that thing you get ONCE IN THE PLUGSTAR! a VERY RARE item, which arrives once every ever ... I don't know about you, but these things sucks to me ...

I won't belabour the point about self-damage, since @(NSW)Kokojo pretty much ninja'd any points I was going to make. But I will respond to "do you really need nerf in a PvE?"

Yes.

First, as the aforementioned Kokojo points out, you're sharing the game space with others. If you can press a button to win the game, everyone else in your team doesn't even get that enjoyment. Yes, they can play solo, but that just ruins their enjoyment in another way: an inability to play with people.

Second, if you can press a button to win the game, the "game" aspect falls to the wayside, and it looks a lot more like a Skinner Box than an engaging medium. (Keep in mind: the game is heading this way already)

Third, there have been multiple calls for difficulty or increased engagement. If you try to make content difficult for that overpowered weapon, other, non-overpowered weapons are shoved to the wayside. We can try to buff other weapons (not always possible: Bramma is good in part because of AoE and snipers simply lack AoE), but one we buff enemies to match that new power level, the end result is no different than nerfing the overpowered weapon from the get-go.

Fourth, if that overpowered weapon is left alone, it becomes the new standard for new content. If they release a new Prime weapon, it's going to be compared to that overpowered weapon - probably unfavourably - which means new Prime weapons either A: don't sell very well or B: have to be just as overpowered, probably more-so since it has to compete with an item players already have. Up the power scale goes, tending even faster toward problems 2 and 3 above.

[SebyShine]

24 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I won't belabour the point about self-damage, since @(NSW)Kokojo pretty much ninja'd any points I was going to make. But I will respond to "do you really need nerf in a PvE?"

Yes.

First, as the aforementioned Kokojo points out, you're sharing the game space with others. If you can press a button to win the game, everyone else in your team doesn't even get that enjoyment. Yes, they can play solo, but that just ruins their enjoyment in another way: an inability to play with people.

Second, if you can press a button to win the game, the "game" aspect falls to the wayside, and it looks a lot more like a Skinner Box than an engaging medium. (Keep in mind: the game is heading this way already)

Third, there have been multiple calls for difficulty or increased engagement. If you try to make content difficult for that overpowered weapon, other, non-overpowered weapons are shoved to the wayside. We can try to buff other weapons (not always possible: Bramma is good in part because of AoE and snipers simply lack AoE), but one we buff enemies to match that new power level, the end result is no different than nerfing the overpowered weapon from the get-go.

Fourth, if that overpowered weapon is left alone, it becomes the new standard for new content. If they release a new Prime weapon, it's going to be compared to that overpowered weapon - probably unfavourably - which means new Prime weapons either A: don't sell very well or B: have to be just as overpowered, probably more-so since it has to compete with an item players already have. Up the power scale goes, tending even faster toward problems 2 and 3 above.

(Sry for my bad english)

 

I know, you said a great thing: weapons go into oblivion, weapons let's take mk-1 as an example I don't know how you think they are STARTING WEAPONS, so they have to go into oblivion!  weapons do not need nerf but as all veterans say: we need content to be able to make the most of weapons, and let's not forget that over the years they have been stereotyped and buffed weapons that did not need that!  then we want to talk about MR 3 on a mission with the kuva bramma?  now you thought: as kuva bramma has the lvl of mr 15 it is not possible!  and instead you just have to be carried by the taller ones, then?  starlet spear?  that content that was supposed to be for veterans only?  and who made new war?  and all the rest of the content that is bot-proof?

[SebyShine]

I understand your point of view me if they continue to do things for people who have just started, as you can see they have lost all those who have believed in these years in the game, because this game has absurd potential, but badly exploited, and I  very sorry, the beginning of the game with the quest as it then evolves into a second dream etc., it is beautiful but then it creams them, stall.  as many people say, there is no "end game", something that can be done without being a more absurd monotony.  I hope you understand what I mean XD

 

(for the matter of press a button and destroy the map, in my opinion they must work on match making and as mentioned above, on an end game content: difficult and where you have to use your head, think about the dynamics and the thousand things that can happen)

 

[SebyShine]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

 

About the "why nerf PvE game???" here is the reason: It's a Co-Op PvE, the game is not only yours, there are other people playing it.
 

I know it's not mine, it doesn't make much sense this answer you know? xD

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Self damage removal was a thing done by the Devs for 2 reasons:
1 - It was a rather unconventional way to punish the player for using eplosive weapons. Automatic doors, enemies, pets and teammates  in your face out of nowhere and auto-doors closing was the main reason (among others) for the majority of the community ask fo the removal.

2 - DE was already trying to work around that by adding the Cautious Shot mod (that wasn't enought, because even 1% of teh weapon damae was enough to kill you) and making sure newly released explosive weapons has a "safity range" to band-aid that, so there was little reason to keep the self-damage other than satisfy a very small part of the community and, as DE said themselves in the Stream, Chroma mains.

Citation needed.

It's a very conventional way to punish the player for poor use of explosives. See almost every game with such things ever. If you're next to an automatic door (hint: assume it's automatic, since 99% are not Friendship Doors that stay opened) that's your bad positioning if it closes and you shoot danger-close. You have more weapons available. I'll grant that unpredictable allied units/players was a valid point of contention, but the rest.. well, it's just players who would rather shift the blame by complaining about a perfectly normal drawback of a weapon archetype than admit their own errors in judgement.

Also, a large number of players who even had issues with self-damage voiced that they'd actually rather have it back, than have the awful self-staggering and wet-noodle AOE falloff we got in place... In fact, if not for how accessible it is to completely remove that so-called alternative drawback of stagger I'd wager a lot more players who use them 'because' self damage is gone would have put them right back on the shelf once the novelty wore off and the non-risk, all-irritant stagger got to them.

 

Cautious Shot wasn't an attempt to 'work around' the mechanic, it was introduced as an attempt to give the complainants something to frankly shut them up a bit. It didn't work, of course, because that sort of person is never going to be pleased until they get their way precisely, not any sort of compromise. And because the linearly-linked damage output to self-damage risk is a poor fit for Warframe, but that's solvable and doesn't mean delete the whole archetype to replace them with annoying potato cannons.

 

It was a terrible change for the sake of a vocal greedy minority - bearing in mind less than 10% of weapons had any self-damage mechanic at all, and less than 4% had no 'grace' feature such as being triggered, delayed explosion or arm-distance.

It still needs reverting so that players who actually like risky weapon choices actually have something to play with again. Currently, the militant anti-selfdamage complainers have about 5% more weapons to choose from than before, counting the stagger-weapons that arrived since the atrocity. On the other hand, players who enjoyed that niche playstyle have -100% weapons to choose from. Is that 'fair'? Did that 5% of weaponry really need to be homogenised to the wider playerbase, or was it harmless to have them only actively used by a smaller proportion?

[Tyreaus]

53 minutes ago, SebyShine said:

(Sry for my bad english)

I admit I'm having a bit of difficulty figuring out what you're saying, so I apologize if I misunderstand somewhere.

I do feel that you're right in how weapons fall to the wayside as part of the progression. That is natural. And you're also correct in pointing out that Mastery Rank isn't really that good of a progression measurement.

That said, what overpowered weapons can do is create a new MR level (DE basically says "MR = power level"). And you know how we don't care for Mk-1 weapons because we have other weapons with higher MR ranks? If one weapon goes way high in MR rank, then all the other weapons become like those Mk-1 weapons. But where we have only a few Mk-1 weapons, we have a lot of regular weapons. So putting those into the discard pile probably isn't good, yeah?

(Again, apologies if I'm misunderstanding, or if something I say isn't clear - I'll do my best to clarify!)

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, SebyShine said:

  now you thought: as kuva bramma has the lvl of mr 15 it is not possible!  

The problem about that is DE didn’t put a MR Restriction to claim it or build it from Foundry so Players as low as MR 5 have Kuva Bramma.

[GREF_TM]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

It accomplished nothing

Well, it will un-nerf weapons that had no self-damage but got gutted anyway. Like shedu. Can revert status chance changes too while we're at it, so gas would become an actual damage type once again, and not a steaming, stinking pile of grade A monkey crap.

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, GREF_TM said:

Well, it will un-nerf weapons that had no self-damage but got gutted anyway. Like shedu. Can revert status chance changes too while we're at it, so gas would become an actual damage type once again, and not a steaming, stinking pile of grade A monkey crap.

I think the important bit Aldain is talking about is the insta-death part, which always seemed disproportionate. IMO, you can un-nerf weapons and have non-insta-gib self-damage. Maybe make Cautious Shot an exilus mod that turns self-damage into self-stagger, for the players who prefer that or mod their frames that way.

(There are a few weapons I kind of like the self-stagger - the Tombfinger primary that can make enemies disappear is a good one, just because it feels appropriate to be thrown back by an explosion that just made a target stop existing. Others, like the wimpy 'explosion' at the end of Exodia Contagion, can get bent.)

It's an aside but as far as status goes, rant incoming:

Spoiler

I always felt Blast would work better as an AoE application of Heat damage and procs, to mirror Gas as an AoE application of Toxin. Some elemental changes are nice. Others I find hard to justify.

I see the common "overcompensation" problem throughout the status changes: rather than just buffing the bad elements or just nerfing the good ones, they did both, doing things like buffing Magnetic and Viral and nerfing Corrosive and Slash and Gas (setting aside the oversight on the IP part of IPS...). The common problem with that double-ended approach is that it easily ends up inverting the relationship instead of evening it out. Gas didn't go from "best" to "average", it went from "best" to "worst".

And the biggest error is that they seem to prefer large, infrequent iterations by a huge margin. They likely won't touch the damage system again for years, and when they do, it won't be just a change to Gas or just a change to Blast, it'll be changes across the board. Tiny, more frequent, more precise updates are probably what the system most needs, especially to avoid another problem of overcompensating. That goes for damage, for various Warframe abilities and kits, a handful of weapons too probably...

They seem to have this "go big or go home" kind of idea, when a ton of small, focused, miscellaneous changes can add up to be as big as one big sweeping systemic update. At least, that's the impression I get.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

31 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I think the important bit Aldain is talking about is the insta-death part, which always seemed disproportionate. IMO, you can un-nerf weapons and have non-insta-gib self-damage. Maybe make Cautious Shot an exilus mod that turns self-damage into self-stagger, for the players who prefer that or mod their frames that way.

You do have to strike the balance of how much Cautious Shot nerfs the raw output at that point, because the stagger is not any real risk. I've died once while self-staggered, in total, since the change was made. Even when I'm being deliberately careless. It has to bring real tradeoff, rather than the equivalent of the 'just wilfully remove your mods if you want challenge' school of thought.

 

Personally, though I was capable of not even blowing myself up using a Kulstar within the radius of a Snowglobe (and not even an Overextended one, just a comfortable Stretch), I wouldn't mind seeing the self-damage rebalanced. But it has to be rebalanced in truth, not just given a 'one-size-fits-all' fixed-point value.

It has to grow and scale with the power gradient of the weapon, a base Loki with no mods should not be able to tank hits from a full geared explosive (no capped/percentage suggestions), it has to 'feel' like you made something dangerous (no 'base damage only' suggestions) and there should be a gradient to let tank builds feel like tanks with resilience against their own self-damage, without being able to ignore it entirely.

 

Which is still very doable. It just needs the right algorithm, using the right (reciprocal) exponents to hit the natural damage values so you disconnect that linearity of what you do to enemies, and what you stand to do to yourself. Give it a sort of diminishing return, with the numbers skewed and squashed into realistic player EHP ranges.

I even offered up my own balance-tweak-friendly algorithm while we were discussing it before and after the removal happened, and I'm not a smart-guy mathematician. I can just mix numbers and operators together on a spreadsheet until something stuck.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Self-damage has never balanced AoE nuke frames or half the AoE weapons in the game. It wouldn't do what you think it would.

[Tyreaus]

29 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

it has to 'feel' like you made something dangerous

I think here we run into a bit of a debate with shield gating. That is, how much of a feel of danger is losing shields in the modern game? If it's a sufficiently huge deal to make it feel dangerous, shield-gating theoretically solves most of the problem by itself - after all, it's insta-gibbing that's the main issue - and calculations would only be needed to give Inaros and Nidus some compensation - assuming that's even desired. Maybe they just have to be more careful with those kinds of weapons, to compensate for their ability to face-tank against enemies.

I was going to get into the nitty-gritty of the formulas in your thread but, rather than that:

This brings up the major issue that a lot of this is subjective. In quite real terms, one person says self-damage can't be based on the Warframe's health because it makes weaker frames too able to tank it. Another says self-damage must be based on the Warframe's health because it makes stronger frames too able to tank it. Both justify on the fact that self-damage weapons should be dangerous to use. If your job is now to appease both of them, I can only wish you luck, because that contention is just one slice of the entire debate pie and it only gets worse. After all, you've yet add in shield gating, status procs, toxin bypass, damage reduction, healing abilities, and a number of other elements that shuffle Warframes about the survivability scale like a game of curling played by cocaine addicts - and people aren't going to be happy wherever that line is drawn.

I do think many of us can agree that, on a macroscopic level, self-stagger feels worse than self-damage. That's not the issue here. The issue is: how do you compromise with problems like the above dilemma and get a solution that, while imperfect, should at least be acceptable?

(It might be easier thinking conditionally, too. E.g., self-damage = min ( x% of players health | x% of weapon's modded damage ), or whatever specific equations or values to make lower-health frames fit one box and higher health frames hit another. But I imagine you're bound to get people contending that doesn't work, either...)