RHINO is Good, but PLZ - QoL!!!

[KillerXDIZ]

I really wanted Rhino to be able to recast his Iron Skin adding more health to the previous Iron Skin he currently had just like Frost does with Frost Globe.

[dodyouserious]

one thing is if they dont want to do the recast-table iron skin, they could move the 3 second invulnerability to when iron skin is depleted, you still absorb damage and you add the absorbed damage to your next iron skin, that way you could actually take advantage of the absorb.

and the aggro idea is really nice i think rhino had it back then but it was removed.

[(PSN)ElectricCold]

yeah I agree, these would be a good changes for Rhino

[(PSN)vampiro66687]

Bump

[Scar.brother.help.me]

If DE didn't nerf the Helminth's ROAR, I could finally change it to something else that requires no duration, thinking that any other warframe can have it instead of Rhino.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Bump

[SteveCutler]

Agreed, and bumped.

Personally though, I think Rhino also needs a buff beyond just quality of life changes. None of his abilities are bad per se (other than the 1 without its augment, but most frames have at least one dud ability). The big problem I have with Rhino is that he just seems like an inferior Chroma to me. Rhino is frequently compared to Chroma because they're both damage buffing tanks. But Chroma has a much stronger damage buff, a much stronger defensive buff, is much easier on energy costs, and is just generally simpler to play.

I just don't really see any reason to play Rhino over Chroma, and to me that's a bad thing, as there should always be something compelling that makes a frame worth playing over another. Chroma is ugly as hell, while Rhino looks great, but beyond that... there's not really anything. Yeah, Stomp is a decent CC, but there are better CC frames, and to try and compete with Chroma in the damage and tank departments you typically have to ruin Stomp anyway.

Rhino's Iron Skin doesn't scale well into end game in any natural way, as its damage absorption aspect is really weak. Players have to use almost exploit-like tricks to make Iron Skin scale artificially, such as combining two arcanes and two augments with lots of micromanagement during a run. Meanwhile Chroma becomes tanky just with a good but standard build, especially with his access to Adaptation. Rhino has to tank efficiency and then struggles with energy, even with Arcane Energize and Dethcube Prime. Meanwhile Chroma has infinite energy, even with reduced efficiency, thanks to his access to Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent... I know this thread is just asking for quality of life buffs, and I absolutely agree on them. I just think Rhino needs even more beyond that.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

I like this! Nullifiers idea is golden too as they dont always spawn in fair spots

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Agreed, and bumped.

Personally though, I think Rhino also needs a buff beyond just quality of life changes. None of his abilities are bad per se (other than the 1 without its augment, but most frames have at least one dud ability). The big problem I have with Rhino is that he just seems like an inferior Chroma to me. Rhino is frequently compared to Chroma because they're both damage buffing tanks. But Chroma has a much stronger damage buff, a much stronger defensive buff, is much easier on energy costs, and is just generally simpler to play.

I just don't really see any reason to play Rhino over Chroma, and to me that's a bad thing, as there should always be something compelling that makes a frame worth playing over another. Chroma is ugly as hell, while Rhino looks great, but beyond that... there's not really anything. Yeah, Stomp is a decent CC, but there are better CC frames, and to try and compete with Chroma in the damage and tank departments you typically have to ruin Stomp anyway.

Rhino's Iron Skin doesn't scale well into end game in any natural way, as its damage absorption aspect is really weak. Players have to use almost exploit-like tricks to make Iron Skin scale artificially, such as combining two arcanes and two augments with lots of micromanagement during a run. Meanwhile Chroma becomes tanky just with a good but standard build, especially with his access to Adaptation. Rhino has to tank efficiency and then struggles with energy, even with Arcane Energize and Dethcube Prime. Meanwhile Chroma has infinite energy, even with reduced efficiency, thanks to his access to Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent... I know this thread is just asking for quality of life buffs, and I absolutely agree on them. I just think Rhino needs even more beyond that.

You know, you are so right. I can think of some changes. Good point indeed though man

[(XBOX)Rez090]

16 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Meanwhile Chroma becomes tanky just with a good but standard build, especially with his access to Adaptation. Rhino has to tank efficiency and then struggles with energy, even with Arcane Energize and Dethcube Prime. Meanwhile Chroma has infinite energy, even with reduced efficiency, thanks to his access to Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Why are you typing here like Rhino can't use Adaptation/Rage/HunterAdrenaline? You keep typing like only Chroma between the two can use these mods. Looks very weird.

[Andele3025]

Bit of nekrosmancy, but relevant (both in qol of ui and recast but especially that nully effects should nullify/mute powers in area, not dispel).

[SteveCutler]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Why are you typing here like Rhino can't use Adaptation/Rage/HunterAdrenaline? You keep typing like only Chroma between the two can use these mods. Looks very weird.

I was specifically talking about Rhino's Iron Skin. When you have Iron Skin up, you technically aren't taking damage or getting hit, as the ability is taking the hits for you. That means that you can't regenerate any energy through Rage/Adrenaline, and you can't build up any stacks of Adaptation — they do absolutely nothing.

Yes, you can slot those mods on a Rhino, and yes, they'll work if you aren't using Iron Skin. But I was talking about using Iron Skin and comparing it with Vex Armor.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

19 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Agreed, and bumped.

Personally though, I think Rhino also needs a buff beyond just quality of life changes. None of his abilities are bad per se (other than the 1 without its augment, but most frames have at least one dud ability). The big problem I have with Rhino is that he just seems like an inferior Chroma to me. Rhino is frequently compared to Chroma because they're both damage buffing tanks. But Chroma has a much stronger damage buff, a much stronger defensive buff, is much easier on energy costs, and is just generally simpler to play.

I disagree on this. Chroma does have better damage, due to how great vex armor’s fury buff is, but rhino does beat him in the defense category. In fact, (maybe controversial) Id argue rhino is THE BEST tank in the game, as far as actual survivability goes. The fact that a decent ironclad rhino build can charge once and have upwards of 200k ironskin hp just cant be beat. For this reason, Id also agree to a buff one his iron skin making it recast-able (but not dealing damage without augment). I dont think roar needs recastability however, as roar is a strong enough team buff that it should require good awareness from the rhino user to maximize effectiveness and not just reward spamming for spamming sake. 

19 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

I just don't really see any reason to play Rhino over Chroma, and to me that's a bad thing, as there should always be something compelling that makes a frame worth playing over another. Chroma is ugly as hell, while Rhino looks great, but beyond that... there's not really anything. Yeah, Stomp is a decent CC, but there are better CC frames, and to try and compete with Chroma in the damage and tank departments you typically have to ruin Stomp anyway.

Also not true. My current rhino build allows for 8-10 seconds of stomp CC with the already mentioned better survivability of rhinos kit. Another thing, although vex armor and roar can buff allies, roar has a better range and doesnt require the rhino to stay near his teammates once the buff is applied. 

19 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Rhino's Iron Skin doesn't scale well into end game in any natural way, as its damage absorption aspect is really weak. Players have to use almost exploit-like tricks to make Iron Skin scale artificially, such as combining two arcanes and two augments with lots of micromanagement during a run.
 

How is using an ability augment exploit-like? Ironclad charge is one of the best augments in the game because not only does it have great synergy with rhinos kit, it also has great synergies with his augments, such as the ironskin nuke build. The only issue is that it is required to make rhino super endgame viable, but at that point it is so good that it doesnt matter too much. 

19 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Meanwhile Chroma becomes tanky just with a good but standard build, especially with his access to Adaptation. Rhino has to tank efficiency and then struggles with energy, even with Arcane Energize and Dethcube Prime. Meanwhile Chroma has infinite energy, even with reduced efficiency, thanks to his access to Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Chroma’s tankiness is good, but gated in ways rhino is not. Ive never had an issue with a 45% eff rhino, purely because iron skin lasts so long that even with just energy pickups you will be set to recast the next time you need to. Chroma however requires even more energy, and the average full tank chroma build is also 45% eff, but you have to manage cooldowns in ways rhino does not. Your average chroma will always spend more energy then your average rhino, due to vex armor being 75 base energy vs 50, and the extra 50 energy cost of elemental ward, another important ability to keep active for chroma. 

19 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent... I know this thread is just asking for quality of life buffs, and I absolutely agree on them. I just think Rhino needs even more beyond that.

I can agree with QoL buffs, but as far as actual buffs, Id say rhino is one of the closest frames to being perfect, alongside nidus and Harrow. A perfect frames doesnt need to be the best at everything, but they are instead a model of how a frame should interact with both its kit, the selection of mods, and the actual player. Rhino has simultaneously a low skill floor, allowing anyone to pick up rhino and do well, and a high skill ceiling, where those who put in the time and effort can make him perhaps the strong frame in the game. Allowing of weapon combos such as the ferrox further increase his tankiness, and where many frames fall off in survivability, team support or CC, rhino stands tall. Sure, he doesnt out damage Chroma, out Cc limbo, or out buff octavia, but when the going gets tough, rhino will never stumble and always be a welcome addition to any team. 

[SteveCutler]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

I disagree on this. Chroma does have better damage, due to how great vex armor’s fury buff is, but rhino does beat him in the defense category. In fact, (maybe controversial) Id argue rhino is THE BEST tank in the game, as far as actual survivability goes. The fact that a decent ironclad rhino build can charge once and have upwards of 200k ironskin hp just cant be beat.

I don't think that's true, but I'm not really looking to argue about it here. It's already been debated and discussed plenty of times. Yes, Rhino can get to a very high level of EHP, but it isn't all about total EHP at one point in time. It's about continuous sustain when under fire, and Chroma does that better.

24 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

How is using an ability augment exploit-like? Ironclad charge is one of the best augments in the game because not only does it have great synergy with rhinos kit, it also has great synergies with his augments, such as the ironskin nuke build.

It's just my opinion, but the lengths that players have to go to in order to get Rhino competitive just seems like exploitative behavior to me. It's the kind of thing where I really wouldn't be surprised if DE was unaware of it, one day found out, and then patched it out as a "not intended interaction". Ironclad Charge on its own is one thing, but the combination of it together with grouping abilities/arcanes (Larva, Magus Anomaly, Telos Boltace), together with flat armor arcanes like Arcane Ultimatum and Arcane Tanker, etc. in order to multiply everything together to a ridiculous number doesn't really seem intended to me.

Believe you me, I'd love for Rhino to be competitive and better at certain things, but he just isn't. I love the idea, theme, and looks of Rhino, but the truth is that Chroma just does the same thing better (when disregarding Stomp's CC). Rhino feels dated and power-crept.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

53 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

I don't think that's true, but I'm not really looking to argue about it here. It's already been debated and discussed plenty of times. Yes, Rhino can get to a very high level of EHP, but it isn't all about total EHP at one point in time. It's about continuous sustain when under fire, and Chroma does that better.

How does chroma have better sustain then rhino? Even without considering operators, Rhino can end an endless mission taking literally no damage, and ironskin will always provide a larger defensive buff the vex ward as long as you use the mods designed for it, namely ironclad charge. Not only can rhino have more hp, but assuming you have the build, it takes a total of 3-4 button max pressed and you have that hp instantly, plus whatever you absorb from enemy fire. Chroma on the other hand needs to maintain high hp, high armor, adapatation, all while making sure you dont get knocked down since he lacks cc immunity. How is that more sustainable then rhino? 

Quote

It's just my opinion, but the lengths that players have to go to in order to get Rhino competitive just seems like exploitative behavior to me. It's the kind of thing where I really wouldn't be surprised if DE was unaware of it, one day found out, and then patched it out as a "not intended interaction". Ironclad Charge on its own is one thing, but the combination of it together with grouping abilities/arcanes (Larva, Magus Anomaly, Telos Boltace), together with flat armor arcanes like Arcane Ultimatum and Arcane Tanker, etc. in order to multiply everything together to a ridiculous number doesn't really seem intended to me.

Unintended usually is things like infested mobility stacking infinitely when not leveled fully, not something simple like number stacking. 

Quote

Believe you me, I'd love for Rhino to be competitive and better at certain things, but he just isn't. I love the idea, theme, and looks of Rhino, but the truth is that Chroma just does the same thing better (when disregarding Stomp's CC). Rhino feels dated and power-crept.

But thats my point, chroma doesnt do the same thing better. Chroma is a dps powerhouse with good surviability and ok team buffs when using an augment. Rhino is a defensive wall with some good team buffs and reliable cc. While its fine to compare them, you cant just dismiss one over the other for reasons as simple as “i think this one exploits something” and then claim that frame also needs buffs. Thats how we get onto saryn levels, where the frame is beyond broken. In a few modes and no where to be seen elsewhere. 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I just want to remind again that Iron Skin huge EHP numbers are reliable only when there are no Nullifiers around (and if they are just a few and easy to avoid - you are probably at the difficulty point where you can be ok even without using the Skin at all :)). Let's see where we can go to play without Nullifiers: 
1. Grineer (star chart, Steel Path, Liches, Arbitrations, Sorties)
2. Infested (Star chart, Steel Path, Arbis, Sorties)
3. POE
4. Deimos
5. Index (though there is at least one Unit that can nullify from time to time)

With Nullifiers:
1. Corpus 
2. Corrupted
3. Relics (any faction, including Grineer and Infested)
4. SO/ESO (factions rotate)
5. Orb Vallis

Corpus Liches are coming too.. I bet Nullifying is going to be the main sourse of their "difficulty".

[Scar.brother.help.me]

On 2020-12-27 at 7:31 PM, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Why are you typing here like Rhino can't use Adaptation/Rage/HunterAdrenaline? You keep typing like only Chroma between the two can use these mods. Looks very weird.

Because Rhino's main feature is Iron Skin. It gives him immunity to any status effects (including staggers/knockdowns) and there is point to build him around it. If you don't use Iron Skin - you are better off playing any other warframe at all. 
Iron Skin has to always be on and while it is - you get no hp damage at all - Rage/Adrenaline not working, Adaptation does not trigger either, and even if you gwt stacks before the Skin is Cast - it does not reduce damage to Irons Skin (and even if it did, it would run out quickly anyway).
It doesn't look weird, it looks like he played Rhino.

[(PSN)ElectricCold]

On 2020-12-26 at 9:17 PM, SteveCutler said:

Agreed, and bumped.

Personally though, I think Rhino also needs a buff beyond just quality of life changes. None of his abilities are bad per se (other than the 1 without its augment, but most frames have at least one dud ability). The big problem I have with Rhino is that he just seems like an inferior Chroma to me. Rhino is frequently compared to Chroma because they're both damage buffing tanks. But Chroma has a much stronger damage buff, a much stronger defensive buff, is much easier on energy costs, and is just generally simpler to play.

I just don't really see any reason to play Rhino over Chroma, and to me that's a bad thing, as there should always be something compelling that makes a frame worth playing over another. Chroma is ugly as hell, while Rhino looks great, but beyond that... there's not really anything. Yeah, Stomp is a decent CC, but there are better CC frames, and to try and compete with Chroma in the damage and tank departments you typically have to ruin Stomp anyway.

Rhino's Iron Skin doesn't scale well into end game in any natural way, as its damage absorption aspect is really weak. Players have to use almost exploit-like tricks to make Iron Skin scale artificially, such as combining two arcanes and two augments with lots of micromanagement during a run. Meanwhile Chroma becomes tanky just with a good but standard build, especially with his access to Adaptation. Rhino has to tank efficiency and then struggles with energy, even with Arcane Energize and Dethcube Prime. Meanwhile Chroma has infinite energy, even with reduced efficiency, thanks to his access to Rage and/or Hunter Adrenaline.

Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent... I know this thread is just asking for quality of life buffs, and I absolutely agree on them. I just think Rhino needs even more beyond that.

This sums up Rhino's position perfectly. The requirements for his kit to be optimal in a high level scenario is currently way too excessive compared to other tanks in the game.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

let's bump it again

 

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Would love to be able to recast iron skin without the augment!

 Maybe make an iron skin augment that gives it too allies for more of a support role. Altho some builds need to take damage to work like chroma so maybe not. I probably wouldn't use it anyways but I hate that I have to use two mod slots to make an ability usable, one would be fine but two hurts

[(PSN)Daikon177]

On 2021-12-22 at 1:43 PM, [DE]Steve said:

 We dedicated our Update 31: The New War to the Quest alone given its scope, and we dedicate 2022 to what comes next: a year full of doing the right things for Warframe.

Please, do the right thing for rhino Steve 🥺

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Bump