"Imagine Every Warframe Ability Being Useful"

[(PSN)Menetius]

You know who said it. I don't need to point fingers, nor am I here to simply parrot a contentious quote out of pure spite.

But I did take a moment to imagine:

Having to actually think about what ability to give up from a tactical perspective?

Wondering whether your Frame would be better off as-is for general use, or if you should choose a Helminth ability for specialization?

Having a greater variety of strong (or God-forbid viable) Frames?

Ultimately enjoying the game's increased replayability and greater probability of player retention because variety?

Dunno about you, but imagining every Warframe ability as useful genuinely sounds like we'd have even more fun.

[(PSN)thegarada]

Some frames have that. Newer frames tend to be like that, and frames that have been reworked. Older frames tend to be stats + 1-2 good skills. Nearly every frame made before 2019 needs some work.

[Loza03]

Here's the problem.

Doing this requires massive overhauls to several core systems in order to make this happen. I'm talking reworking energy to make spamming nukes/mass CC/invisibility/immortality powers non-viable without good play rather than just having the stuff. Similar changes would need to happen for weapons - make it so that if two frames ore weapons are in the same niche, they're either taking experientially/tactically different routes to get there, and/or offer different levels of power and the reasonable amount of sustainability to match. 

I'm talking major damage overhauls to make more damage types viable by virtue of diversifying how enemies take damage - raw power won't cut it, one damage type is not in the top 3 damage types for every faction (read: Viral). Armour should not the be-all end-all of defence. Shields on enemies should matter, andfrom there, abilities, status effects and damage types that counter shields matter.

I'm talking AI and core enemy design updates. We need enemies to be designed in such a way that having a weak point isn't instant death. No more Hitscan. No more enemies with the same silhouette and/or colour scheme but different behavior. The room should be readable, the attacks able to be overcome with skill and the weak spots in your frame are where the gameplay or the teamwork comes in, rather than a punishment doled out by hitscan or lanes upon lanes of fully-automatic explosive fire from five enemies that can fire simultaneously with perfect accuracy at you for several seconds straight.

 

DE is capable of this. They have made big changes to their game before. It is possible. But whether they are capable of doing so against the colossal backlash is another story.

[taiiat]

but, doing the right thing (having Abilities offer tools that are flexible and useful but still having a designated theme so that Warframes don't replace each other) - isn't profitable. it doesn't get you the sales, it doesn't unethically prey on Customers to buy stuff or do stuff that they otherwise wouldn't desire. 

[Colyeses]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm talking AI and core enemy design updates. We need enemies to be designed in such a way that having a weak point isn't instant death. No more Hitscan. No more enemies with the same silhouette and/or colour scheme but different behavior. The room should be readable, the attacks able to be overcome with skill and the weak spots in your frame are where the gameplay or the teamwork comes in, rather than a punishment doled out by hitscan or lanes upon lanes of fully-automatic explosive fire from five enemies that can fire simultaneously with perfect accuracy at you for several seconds straight

None of this would have any impact on ability viability though. 

Best and easiest place to start would be the bottom edge outliers. Things like Rift Surge, Sandstorm, Rage, Tempest Barrage, Tidal Surge, Icewave, and way more abilities. Some of these need complete overhauls, some of them need improved scaling. 

I'll keep saying it: Nidus and Harrow already got things right. External scaling and cooldowns are great ways to leverage more power and create more gameplay, and should be applied more widely.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Here's the problem.

Doing this requires massive overhauls to several core systems in order to make this happen. I'm talking reworking energy to make spamming nukes/mass CC/invisibility/immortality powers non-viable without good play rather than just having the stuff. Similar changes would need to happen for weapons - make it so that if two frames ore weapons are in the same niche, they're either taking experientially/tactically different routes to get there, and/or offer different levels of power and the reasonable amount of sustainability to match. 

Well yes, making core changes to core problems is going to require a lot of effort.  I don't see how that can be spun into reasoning for why they shouldn't make a better game.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm talking major damage overhauls to make more damage types viable by virtue of diversifying how enemies take damage - raw power won't cut it, one damage type is not in the top 3 damage types for every faction (read: Viral). Armour should not the be-all end-all of defence. Shields on enemies should matter, andfrom there, abilities, status effects and damage types that counter shields matter.

I mean they've already done most of this.  Sure not all status types are equal, but they're definitely better than they were for a long time.  Also shields do matter for both allies and enemies now.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm talking AI and core enemy design updates. We need enemies to be designed in such a way that having a weak point isn't instant death. No more Hitscan. No more enemies with the same silhouette and/or colour scheme but different behavior. The room should be readable, the attacks able to be overcome with skill and the weak spots in your frame are where the gameplay or the teamwork comes in, rather than a punishment doled out by hitscan or lanes upon lanes of fully-automatic explosive fire from five enemies that can fire simultaneously with perfect accuracy at you for several seconds straight.

tbh I feel like you're over complicating it.  DE wouldn't need to overhaul the entire game to make all warframe abilities compelling options.  More than half of the bad abilities can be easily improved to be worthwhile picks.

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

 

DE is capable of this. They have made big changes to their game before. It is possible. But whether they are capable of doing so against the colossal backlash is another story.

DE gets backlash for breathing.  They make changes regardless of where the community stands on something.  That's sort of a major complaint from a lot of us.

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

but, doing the right thing (having Abilities offer tools that are flexible and useful but still having a designated theme so that Warframes don't replace each other) - isn't profitable. it doesn't get you the sales, it doesn't unethically prey on Customers to buy stuff or do stuff that they otherwise wouldn't desire. 

It's really not that deep.  DE just has a different vision for the game.  And it changes constantly.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's really not that deep. 

that ain't deep, that's just F2P games and big Studio problems.
almost the opposite of deep, really.

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

None of this would have any impact on ability viability though. 

Best and easiest place to start would be the bottom edge outliers. Things like Rift Surge, Sandstorm, Rage, Tempest Barrage, Tidal Surge, Icewave, and way more abilities. Some of these need complete overhauls, some of them need improved scaling. 

I'll keep saying it: Nidus and Harrow already got things right. External scaling and cooldowns are great ways to leverage more power and create more gameplay, and should be applied more widely.

Yes, it would. Not necessarily from a pure balance perspective, but from the less objective sense of 'is this ability fun to play' Consider that, right now, whenever the slightest bit of weakness is introduced, a large chunk of the population calls out that it feels cheap. That's a direct consequence of poor enemy design. Enemies aren't fun or interesting to fight without abilities, at least not compared with other, similar games. Hitscan limits player agency because any amount of dodging or movement comes down to an RNG decision as to whether the attack hits, rather than actual skill involved in dodging. Enemy abilities are triggered without much context, including when outside a player's field of view. Enemy visual design appears to be chosen purely visual purposes rather than for readability. I ask you, when you see a tall, red suited Corpus Crewman with a Supra, what do you expect? There is more than one common answer to that question, and that's not on.

Player design is limited by enemy design. Imagine how much less interesting Alien: Isolation would be if the Xenomorph were as thick as the ones in Colonial Marines. How much less interesting Halo would be if Elite's didn't dodge and Brutes didn't enrage.

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Well yes, making core changes to core problems is going to require a lot of effort.  I don't see how that can be spun into reasoning for why they shouldn't make a better game.

On paper, I agree. I wouldn't be so passionate if I didn't think this was ultimately realisable, after all.

However, financially speaking, I would be lying if I said this wouldn't be incredibly risky. If it paid off, it's pay off long-term, but that's still an 'if'.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean they've already done most of this.  Sure not all status types are equal, but they're definitely better than they were for a long time.  Also shields do matter for both allies and enemies now.

Honestly, I would argue the status situation is worse for the most part.

Viral is far too powerful, being a top 3 choice for almost every enemy in the game unless they're outright immune to its status effect. Against most Grineer it's an incredibly close race against Corrosive to the point of the difference being negligable in most cases. It's effective against Corpus because enemy shields can't stop 10 stacks of viral being built up so the main health bar gets deleted in milliseconds, making up for lost time in most cases. And it's the best pick against Infested by far. Heat, as well, triple-dips on useful effects (CC, Damage over time AND armour stripping), and Slash is only slightly less dominant as it's still the best course against the most prominent form of enemy defense (armour).

Meanwhile, Gas has lost its niche, Toxin and Magnetic are still only useful within theirs, Electricity is just a poor mans Heat and Impact barely even serves its intended purpose of making Mercy Kills more reliable because of the innate problems with that mechanic. 

The attempt was made, but by and large, I can't say it was a successful one. I generally used viral before, because I prefer consistently good over specifically great, but I'd still equip several weapons with Corrosive because it was situationally better for those weapons and was working really hard on trying to get the last piece for a fun Gas build on the Secura Penta. Now Viral is almost always the best option. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

tbh I feel like you're over complicating it.  DE wouldn't need to overhaul the entire game to make all warframe abilities compelling options.  More than half of the bad abilities can be easily improved to be worthwhile picks.

I mean... they kinda do.

Right now energy is basically free when you think about it from a mid-mission perspective. You pop Zenurik, put down a pizza, or chance upon an Arcane Energise, all of which has neglible cost. Energy regeneration costing nothing of the player means that the cost of using an ability also costs nothing from the player. If the cost is always the same, then the Cost/Benefit analysis becomes a linear example of what provides the biggest benefit. And if the game's only fun when you're abusing powers because the enemies are simplistic hitscan troops with high damage, then the power has to be abusable.

That's very limiting on what a 'worthwhile 'pick can be.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

DE gets backlash for breathing.  They make changes regardless of where the community stands on something.  That's sort of a major complaint from a lot of us.

If this was the case, they'd have stuck to their guns regarding lootframes. But they didn't. They'd also have kept Nightwave as a low-effort addition that doesn't require months and months of dev time, Fortuna enemies wouldn't be split between elite and regular versions and we wouldn't have shield gating or any degree of Universal Vacuum.  Whether any of these individual changes are positive or negative is a point of discussion, but the fact is there's plenty of examples of DE directly responding to Community feedback. The community is not a monolithic entity that it can be said to 'stand on' anything. I mean, remember how often DE got criticised for releasing things too weak? And how often they got accused of being money-grubbers for releasing them powerful? And the backlash they got for listening to community feedback and adjusting something pre-release? The Community is divided.

[Mazrou]

we mostly rely on weapons and some frames are used for specific  missions like frost for defense ivara for spy but most of the frames are useless in endgame like ash nezha inaros nyx titania

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, M21112 said:

we mostly rely on weapons and some frames are used for specific  missions like frost for defense ivara for spy but most of the frames are useless in endgame like ash nezha inaros nyx titania

I’m sorry what?

Ash, Nezha, Inaros, and Titania (to a lesser extent but she’s still usable) are very endgame viable.

[(PSN)thegarada]

2 hours ago, M21112 said:

we mostly rely on weapons and some frames are used for specific  missions like frost for defense ivara for spy but most of the frames are useless in endgame like ash nezha inaros nyx titania

What is end game though? Are you talking ESO, SP, Eidolons is or running fissures? Give me any frame you can think of, if it is level 30 and catalyst installed, I can do 20 minutes in SP MoT. I use the survival on Sedna on SP to level frames. The remainder Is better off with a specific frame. 

[Thrymm]

8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

 

Best and easiest place to start would be the bottom edge outliers. Things like Rift Surge, Sandstorm, Rage, Tempest Barrage, Tidal Surge, Icewave, and way more abilities. Some of these need complete overhauls, some of them need improved scaling.

This, right here, is one of the biggest barriers to getting things reworked.  We can't figure out what a "non-useful" ability is. Ice Wave is one of the abilities that I regularly see brought up, and it undermines every one of these arguments it shows up in.  Let's look at it in depth, then compare it to Tempest Barrage.

Ice Wave is a colossal example of this.  The ability itself is remarkably simple.  Frontal cone AE with damage and cold proc.

So here's the thing.  Frontal cone AE IS useful.  There are piles and piles of places that this is a good thing, having your current enemies in a cone in front of you is, perhaps, one of the most common situations in the game.  The mode of damage itself is sound.  Further, as an ability, Ice Wave becomes drastically larger with ability range, due to geometry.  The ability itself largely tracks well with terrain and hits virtually everything in its path.  The cast time is short enough to plug it down pretty much whenever.

Damage IS useful.  Does Ice Wave do enough of it?  Surely not, but I sincerely doubt anyone is going to question the veracity of damage being useful.

Cold Proc is, simply put, a snare.  Snares are useful.  Is having your snare delivered in the form of a six stack of cold procs the best way......probably not.  But it does work.

And then we get to the Augment Mod.  The augment is an extremely strong snare, persists on the ground(it doesn't even need to hit enemies), and affects nearly anything in the game.  It doesn't throw or ragdoll anything, leaving all enemies in its path as sitting ducks.  It reduces incoming attacks by 75%, and the duration is fairly long.  If you can't find a use for this at all, you're doing it wrong.

Now, it doesn't mean the ability is perfect, or that it doesn't need an update.  The damage is too low, the base snare effect is wonky and unreliable because it comes from a cold status proc, and the augment, while great, would not be at all overpowering to include in the base ability and, indeed, would function similarly to more "modern" abilities if it did.  The ability needs updating, and honestly it's as simple as "up the damage, roll the augment in" and suddenly you've got a quick and effective mass AE ability for a cheap energy cost.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've used Ice Wave on a near daily basis for over six years and it continues to be effective and useful.  Now let's look at Tempest Barrage, an actual waste of a button press.

Tempest Barrage hits your cross hair when you press the button, and(eventually) calls down projectiles to hit locations within its area of effect, causing knockdown and damage.

So the first thing we get is the mode of attack.  Unlike the Frontal Cone hitting everything in the AE, the targeted area of effect starts at whatever the crosshair was on.  You might hit your target, but you might also place this thing closer or farther away, depending upon where the crosshair is.  The mode of attack is clumsy and ineffective.  As if that's not enough, you can charge it for a bafflingly long time, the projectiles don't immediately hit, and they don't even necessarily hit anything because they don't actually aim at enemies.  Hitting this button doesn't guarantee you've done anything at all, and holding it doesn't really fix the situation.

Damage, once again, is a useful thing.  This one does even less than Ice Wave however, and for a mere 2.5 seconds of charging the attack, you can make it do half the damage of Ice Wave.  It's almost a misnomer to even suggest that it does damage in the first place, so trivial is the amount.  As if that's not enough, Impact damage is one of the most widely resisted in the game, further muting its damage potential.

When it does hit an enemy, it knocks them down.  CC is always a form of damage reduction, but knockdown is second only to ragdoll in real-use ineffectiveness because it does this in a way that makes it more difficult to utilize it to neutralize the enemy.  So far we've got the second worst damage type randomly and slowly doing the second worst knockdown on an unreliably placed CC.

Then we get to the augment, which gives......a corrosive proc.  If it hits.  That's a 26% armor reduction which in real damage increase can range from not very much all the way to nothing.  So we've got a hard to aim ability that randomly and slowly throws projectiles to do trivial damage, knockdown opponents, and reduce armor by a nominal amount.

There isn't any actual reason to use this.  You aren't going to slow a whole room.  You aren't even guaranteed to make a single enemy stop shooting you.  Short of low level butchers that an unmodded sentinel weapon was going to kill you aren't likely to actually do damage that matters, and the augment doesn't save it. 

This ability needs virtually everything about it, other than energy cost, changed to make it work.  Its delivery mode doesn't work, its damage doesn't work, its augment doesn't work, and even its CC is subpar.  THIS is a non-useful ability, it needs much more than just a nice tweak to make it function.

 

[kevoisvevo]

14 hours ago, M21112 said:

we mostly rely on weapons and some frames are used for specific  missions like frost for defense ivara for spy but most of the frames are useless in endgame like ash nezha inaros nyx titania

Say that to all the players who solo mot 2hrs plus using ash

[Mazrou]

to all who replied, no one said u cant do all the contents with the all the frames even the one i mentioned but at a point they have useless skills at level 100+, please read the topic name and understand what i meant........

 

[Colyeses]

14 hours ago, Thrymm said:

The ability needs updating, and honestly it's as simple as "up the damage, roll the augment in" and suddenly you've got a quick and effective mass AE ability for a cheap energy cost.

Well, I did say that 'some of them need a complete overhaul, and some need improved scaling'. Frostwave clearly falls into the latter category. The ability isn't bad from a design standpoint (although it is quite limited), it's just underperforming.

 

14 hours ago, Thrymm said:

You might hit your target, but you might also place this thing closer or farther away, depending upon where the crosshair is.  The mode of attack is clumsy and ineffective. 

This is one of only two parts of your assessment of tempest barrage that I think is unfair. Yes, this ability needs to be aimed, but the target radius is quite wide, which makes it pretty easy to land. The other part, obviously, is.. 

14 hours ago, Thrymm said:

This one does even less than Ice Wave however, and for a mere 2.5 seconds of charging the attack, you can make it do half the damage of Ice Wave.

Which isn't entirely fair because yeah, it's half the damage of an icewave, but it hits more than twice as often per cast.

The end result of this comparison is the same however: both abilities need work, and quite obviously so.

[Loza03]

20 hours ago, Thrymm said:

And then we get to the Augment Mod.  The augment is an extremely strong snare, persists on the ground(it doesn't even need to hit enemies), and affects nearly anything in the game.  It doesn't throw or ragdoll anything, leaving all enemies in its path as sitting ducks.  It reduces incoming attacks by 75%, and the duration is fairly long.  If you can't find a use for this at all, you're doing it wrong.

And here's where the problem lies. Ice Wave undoubtedly should be useful! It isn't for a simple reason: Lull exists. You can reduce incoming attacks by 100% for an even longer duration, over a wider range and get a damage boost because enemies are vulnerable to finishers now. It costs less (same energy cost and no build opportunity cost), and on their native frames, it refunds a different ability's cost. Even if energy weren't completely free because we can spam energy restores all day, Lull would be the better option in almost every common scenario.

This is why I say that the Energy system needs a rework. There's too many abilities running on the same economy, on the same pricing. If two things cost the same, then the one that provides more benefit will almost always be the best choice.  Reworking how abilities calculate damage also surely wouldn't go amiss, as Ice Wave would be a great deal more useful if it could deal meaningful damage. It could also rein in some of the over-capable options too - y'know, the sort which can do hypothetically infinite damage without a Line of Sight check, or complete whole missions with a drinking bird. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

9 hours ago, M21112 said:

to all who replied, no one said u cant do all the contents with the all the frames even the one i mentioned but at a point they have useless skills at level 100+, please read the topic name and understand what i meant........

 

We all agree to that. Mostly all frames Released before 2019 need balance fixes. Not necessarily reworks, more of 1-2 skills rework plus some number tunings.

[lnfine]

В 30.09.2020 в 09:38, M21112 сказал:

to all who replied, no one said u cant do all the contents with the all the frames even the one i mentioned but at a point they have useless skills at level 100+, please read the topic name and understand what i meant........

 

Exactly which Titania skill is useless?

[megamino]

On 2020-09-29 at 5:15 PM, M21112 said:

we mostly rely on weapons and some frames are used for specific  missions like frost for defense ivara for spy but most of the frames are useless in endgame like ash nezha inaros nyx titania

that's the most nice things you said... what useless things ash, nezha, inaros, nyx and titania?

Both of them are good (even if you are solo), you are talking solo right? Their kit are not support except titania, or any frames, know the roles please :(

[Mazrou]

17 hours ago, lnfine said:

Exactly which Titania skill is useless?

the 3rd skill, the other skills are fine, same goes with most frames not all abilities are bad but in each frame you will find 1 useless ability but not all, such as saryn and nidus they have good abilities that are actually useful in my POV

 

4 hours ago, megamino said:

that's the most nice things you said... what useless things ash, nezha, inaros, nyx and titania?

Both of them are good (even if you are solo), you are talking solo right? Their kit are not support except titania, or any frames, know the roles please :(

ash's 1st ability can be replaced with something more useful nezha's blazing chakram isn't that great nyx's passive is really strange the 1st ability and the 3rd ability are nearly the same regarding titania the 3rd skill isn't that great...

thats my POV i just dont like to see an ability that i know i will never use...

[lnfine]

3 минуты назад, M21112 сказал:

the 3rd skill

Aha! Here we get someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's like people complaining about Banshee needing a rework.

Lantern is the love of my life. One of the best CC skills in the game. Kinda like mallet, but 4 of them and with higher range. Or chaos + chaos sphere, only more persistent, and the sphere part is bigger.

Lantern is the main reason I use Titania for SP defend anything stationary types of missions (def, mob. def, excavations, interceptions). Lantern doesn't need to be spammed to affect new targets, lantern doesn't get in your way like cataclysm and doesn't ragdoll enemies. Lantern tolerates nullifiers walking in it's area of effect as long as they don't touch the lantern itself. Lantern has very high base range (20m attraction radius), so just not slotting narrow minded is enough for it to be usable. Also you can steal ancient auras. Also you don't need an augment for it to actually work.

It's only downside is requiring LoS (like mallet), so with wonky WF LoS detection you sometimes get stray shots.

 

I mean I get it that for some people Titania = BRRRRT, and anything that doesn't help with that would be considered useless. But that's wrong. Stop BRRRRTifying Titania!

[Mazrou]

1 minute ago, lnfine said:

Aha! Here we get someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

It's like people complaining about Banshee needing a rework.

Lantern is the love of my life. One of the best CC skills in the game. Kinda like mallet, but 4 of them and with higher range. Or chaos + chaos sphere, only more persistent, and the sphere part is bigger.

Lantern is the main reason I use Titania for SP defend anything stationary types of missions (def, mob. def, excavations, interceptions). Lantern doesn't need to be spammed to affect new targets, lantern doesn't get in your way like cataclysm and doesn't ragdoll enemies. Lantern tolerates nullifiers walking in it's area of effect as long as they don't touch the lantern itself. Lantern has very high base range (20m attraction radius), so just not slotting narrow minded is enough for it to be usable. Also you can steal ancient auras. Also you don't need an augment for it to actually work.

It's only downside is requiring LoS (like mallet), so with wonky WF LoS detection you sometimes get stray shots.

 

I mean I get it that for some people Titania = BRRRRT, and anything that doesn't help with that would be considered useless. But that's wrong. Stop BRRRRTifying Titania!

if ur using the 3rd ability for cc how can the first ability be useful? 

[taiiat]

On 2020-09-29 at 11:22 AM, Thrymm said:

Now let's look at Tempest Barrage, an actual waste of a button press.

i appreciate that you appreciate Ice Wave and especially the Augment.

anyways, Tempest Barrage is theoretically useful too - the Projectiles have an AoE and since they have Knockdown, the quintessential use of the Ability is to make chokepoints nontraversable. 
how useful or relevant many types of CC is in the current state of the game notwithstanding, if we are to assume that the scenario is always one where you can't just Kill Enemies in the blink of an eye and so want to debuff them for safety, then this Ability can be useful, though is dependent on the shape of the Terrain. i'm super okay with that though, Abilities that interact with the environment (which this counts as) is super interesting, far more than something that works the same anywhere you use it without having to think.
great? well, not necessarily. but it does its job for sure.
Tidal Surge is way less useful than Tempest Barrage, frankly. and frankly Tentacle Swarm is also hot garbage other than having a l00t Augment. if not for that it would basically be dumpster bin.

that being said i won't defend the Charging of the Ability, since like... well, i'm not sure any of the Abilities that have been given a Charge-type feature to get more out of it per Cast has literally ever been useful since they tend to be double Energy for double Range or Duration, but takes like friggin' 2 or 3 seconds to prepare it and so it's basically just a garbage feature. would be better off with these types of Abilities working like Penance or something, idk. even then having multiple separate instances of an Ability can be quite useful sometimes.

On 2020-09-30 at 7:52 AM, Loza03 said:

And here's where the problem lies. Ice Wave undoubtedly should be useful! It isn't for a simple reason: Lull exists.

Lull will put Enemies to Sleep, but this is over the course of numerous Seconds, and hard CC like that doesn't work on anywhere near as many types of Enemies, and if you're dealing Damage to the Enemies then it cancels itself anyways.
not even to mention that Lull has a far shorter presence in the world compared to Ice Wave Impedance. affecting new Enemies requires Casting again.

one doesn't have a significant Range benefit over the other either, as both affect very considerable areas by default and affect downright enormous ones with high Range.
lastly Lull requires Enemies be Alerted and have Line of Sight, rather than being indiscriminately affected like Ice Wave.

 

i am unable to say one has a big advantage over the other overall without being disingenuous. each has some pros and cones in different facets of how they apply CC. that Ice Wave needs its Augment is neither here nor there, we've already re-established the point here like many times that the Augment should be integrated because of what newer Warframes tend to get for free now. 

1 hour ago, M21112 said:

but not all, such as saryn and nidus they have good abilities that are actually useful in my POV

outside of Onslaught, Miasma is actually not very useful. well, spreading Spores and then using Miasma to semi-AFK Defenses is a 'use' too i guess.
but anytime you aren't required to Kill every single Enemy or it isn't Onslaught, the Ability is not very useful. you just don't need the small bit of CC with a bit of Damage and a Status Effect. the game is too fast paced for that to be relevant.
and you even would only spread Spores around for the free Status Effect tick on Condition Overload (and Corrosive stacking if your Weapons suck), not for the actual Damage that it does.

[Mazrou]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i appreciate that you appreciate Ice Wave and especially the Augment.

anyways, Tempest Barrage is theoretically useful too - the Projectiles have an AoE and since they have Knockdown, the quintessential use of the Ability is to make chokepoints nontraversable. 
how useful or relevant many types of CC is in the current state of the game notwithstanding, if we are to assume that the scenario is always one where you can't just Kill Enemies in the blink of an eye and so want to debuff them for safety, then this Ability can be useful, though is dependent on the shape of the Terrain. i'm super okay with that though, Abilities that interact with the environment (which this counts as) is super interesting, far more than something that works the same anywhere you use it without having to think.
great? well, not necessarily. but it does its job for sure.
Tidal Surge is way less useful than Tempest Barrage, frankly. and frankly Tentacle Swarm is also hot garbage other than having a l00t Augment. if not for that it would basically be dumpster bin.

that being said i won't defend the Charging of the Ability, since like... well, i'm not sure any of the Abilities that have been given a Charge-type feature to get more out of it per Cast has literally ever been useful since they tend to be double Energy for double Range or Duration, but takes like friggin' 2 or 3 seconds to prepare it and so it's basically just a garbage feature. would be better off with these types of Abilities working like Penance or something, idk. even then having multiple separate instances of an Ability can be quite useful sometimes.

Lull will put Enemies to Sleep, but this is over the course of numerous Seconds, and hard CC like that doesn't work on anywhere near as many types of Enemies, and if you're dealing Damage to the Enemies then it cancels itself anyways.
not even to mention that Lull has a far shorter presence in the world compared to Ice Wave Impedance. affecting new Enemies requires Casting again.

one doesn't have a significant Range benefit over the other either, as both affect very considerable areas by default and affect downright enormous ones with high Range.
lastly Lull requires Enemies be Alerted and have Line of Sight, rather than being indiscriminately affected like Ice Wave.

 

i am unable to say one has a big advantage over the other overall without being disingenuous. each has some pros and cones in different facets of how they apply CC. that Ice Wave needs its Augment is neither here nor there, we've already re-established the point here like many times that the Augment should be integrated because of what newer Warframes tend to get for free now. 

outside of Onslaught, Miasma is actually not very useful. well, spreading Spores and then using Miasma to semi-AFK Defenses is a 'use' too i guess.
but anytime you aren't required to Kill every single Enemy or it isn't Onslaught, the Ability is not very useful. you just don't need the small bit of CC with a bit of Damage and a Status Effect. the game is too fast paced for that to be relevant.
and you even would only spread Spores around for the free Status Effect tick on Condition Overload (and Corrosive stacking if your Weapons suck), not for the actual Damage that it does.

its actually as u said i use the miasma and spores for CO and i run radiation cold on weapons with the second ability saryn deals a huge amount of damage in melee only ofc, but my point is, which most people dont get it, that atleast i have a use for all the abilities which is more better than having some abilities with no use, or more situational.

 

[taiiat]

8 minutes ago, M21112 said:

its actually as u said i use the miasma and spores for CO and i run radiation cold on weapons with the second ability saryn deals a huge amount of damage in melee only ofc, but my point is, which most people dont get it, that atleast i have a use for all the abilities which is more better than having some abilities with no use, or more situational.

a theoretical use is better than having no purpose at all i suppose, but it's not much better. a use on paper that is superfluous or even a waste of time in actual play, isn't exactly winning anything.

where the time it takes to Cast Miasma is largely going to offset the Status Effect it gives you, and of the two main features Spores has (continuous Damage and Corrosive Status), one of them is largely pointless since Enemies both have no Health and you rarely need to Kill every single trash Lancer anyways.

but yes, i will give you that is technically better than an Ability which on paper doesn't appear to have a use let alone in Gameplay.